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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Ahmed Jibril , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103 , Scotland issues , US-Scotland relations

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Old 3rd June 2010, 06:59 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
So these guys conspired to lie to everyone because of...five months' difference? Why not just wait it out and let him go three months from his "due date?"

This makes no sense.

Uh, it kind of does, actually.

I don't think this is a case of "the Scots were dupes", or that this was done for business and oil deals. It was the Scottish government who released Megrahi, and they had no interest in BP oil deals. Not only that, the vitriolic hatred of the Labour party (UK government) for the SNP (Scottish government) would pretty much dictate that the UK government wouldn't even ask.

You're all forgetting about the appeal.

Megrahi didn't do it. He had a bloody alibi, for God's sake. He had a better alibi than I have for that day. Putting it simply, and leaving out the CTs because you don't need any CTs to see the miscarriage of justice in this case, the judges decided that because he had been identified by a Maltese shopkeeper as having bought some blast-damaged clothes that were found at the crash site, then somehow, who knows how, he must have smuggled the bomb into the aviation baggage system from where he happened to be that morning.

This despite a shed-load of evidence showing that he had no opportunity to smuggle anything past security that morning, and that in fact there was no unaccounted-for or unaccompanied bag on the flight in question. And that all the bags which transferred into the second feeder flight at Frankfurt (the route this unaccompanied bag was supposed to have taken) were x-rayed and no radios were seen in any of the suitcases. And despite some very suggestive evidence of a genuinely mysterious orphan suitcase having gone on to Maid of the Seas at Heathrow, before the Frankfurt flight landed.

It doesn't have to be a big conspiracy. They were desperate to get someone for this atrocity, and if that someone happened to implicate the pariah state of Libya rather than Iran, which could be awfully embarrassing in geo-political terms, then I guess that's a bonus. There was just enough coincidental and circumstantial evidence to convince the judges to make that huge leap of assumption and decide that somehow, God only knows how, Megrahi had spirited that bag on to KM180 at Luqa early that morning.

It very much hung on the identification made by the shopkeeper (Gauci) though. If that hadn't been there, then the rest of the evidence simply goes up in smoke. The trouble was, Gauci's evidence was wildly unreliable both as to the appearance of the purchaser and the day of the purchase. He was changing his story to suit what he figured the police wanted him to say - and then, relatively recently, it was revealed why. He was paid 2 million for his evidence, and his brother Paul, who coached him, was paid $1 million. The brothers are now living in luxury in Australia.

Take out that identification and not only don't you have a case, you have to look at the watertight evidence that no rogue bag went on to KM180, and realise that Megrahi actually had an alibi.

Megrahi applied for leave to appeal in 2002 or 2003, and the appeal didn't get underway until April 2009. There was an inordinate amount of foot-dragging, including a huge legal wrangle about some top-secret document or documents the defence wanted produced, which the government refused to release even after the court ordered them to be produced. They went to extreme and unprecedented lengths to keep this material under wraps, and nobody really knows what that was all about.

Once the appeal got started, some of the identification evidence was heard, then it was adjourned until November 2009 - even though the defendant was known to be terminally ill. Before that date was reached, of course, he was released and the appeal was withdrawn.

The reluctance of governments of all political colours to have this appeal go ahead is quite striking. Whether this is simply extreme reluctance to see Megrahi acquitted, and thus have to face all the criticism for not having solved the highest-profile Scottish case of all time, or whether it's anything to do with the top-secret documents that mustn't be seen by anyone at all costs, I have no idea.

I'm merely pretty sure that the release was all about getting the appeal withdrawn, so that everyone could go on fondly believing the case was solved, and nobody was going to have to disclose material they didn't want to disclose. The Justice Secretary visited Megrahi in prison one day, he withdrew his appeal the next, and the release was announced the day after that.

If that hadn't happened - well, November is seven months ago now. Who knows what we might now know about that incident that we didn't know before. But the appeal was stopped in August, before we got that far.

So everybody is happy. Megrahi gets to go home. This delights the Libyans as well as Megrahi himself, everybody can keep believing the case was solved, nobody is going to be embarrassed about all the compensation money that was paid on completely mistaken premises, nobody has to disclose embarrassing material, and the UK government gets its business deals and oil contracts.

Too bad if you would quite like to know who actually did bomb that plane.

Rolfe.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 07:00 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
What's the practical value of keeping him locked up, paying for his medical and end-of-life care, when he is clearly no longer a threat to society?
Does he not have propaganda value?
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Old 3rd June 2010, 09:40 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm merely pretty sure that the release was all about getting the appeal withdrawn, so that everyone could go on fondly believing the case was solved, and nobody was going to have to disclose material they didn't want to disclose.
But what would have happened if he didn't have cancer?
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Old 3rd June 2010, 09:46 AM   #84
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Goodness knows. I've said before that if it was actually possible to infect someone with prostate cancer, I'd suspect Kenny MacAskill (or his predecessor, since the diagnosis was actually made in 2008) of doing just that. It's the most convenient diagnosis since Socrates swallowed the hemlock.

Since it's not actually possible to infect anyone with prostate cancer, and since (despite Karol Sikora being pretty dodgy) I don't seriously doubt the diagnosis, I fall back on the procrastination theory.

Keep dragging your heels and putting off the moment when something has to happen, and hope that either something handy comes up, or you're out of office before the proverbial hits the fan.

In this case, something handy came up.

Roolfe.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 10:25 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Can you name one in Scotland or England that received the same medical evaluations and doctors as Megrahi before release? Do Scotish and English inmates usually have three specialists (including a foreign one) determine their condition for a compassionate release? Yes, this guy was treated differently because he was a Muslim and killed Americans....he was treated BETTER than your average dying Scotish or English inmate.
No he was not. He was looked at by the SPS medical people and they passed the info to the relevant people. The decision was based on that. The other guys inspections were not taken into account.

Quote:
It would be interesting to know on average how long Scottish and English inmates lived after their compassionate releases.
You could go and have a look. I bet they did not all last exactly 3 months though eh?
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Old 3rd June 2010, 10:26 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
No, you should treat him differently because he killed a bunch of people. I would say the same thing if he were white and no American died. If any other mass murderers have been released from prison in Scotland or England just because they got sick, that just further proves how stupid the law is.
It's our law. Deal with it and stop crying.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 10:27 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by dtugg View Post
Biggs, at least, didn't kill a bunch of people.
The Kray brother did. Only Brits though and he wasnt a Muslim.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 10:36 AM   #88
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Heres some info.

Quote:
England and Wales- The document says: "Early release may be considered where a prisoner is suffering from a terminal illness and death is likely to occur soon. There are no set time limits, but three months may be considered to be an appropriate period".

In Scotland, the regulations are set out in the Prisoner and Criminal Proceedings (Scotland) Act 1993, which also says a life expectancy of less than three months would appear appropriate.

Details published on the Scottish Government website showed 38 prisoners have been granted compassionate release since 1993.
And here is one example of a guy living near nine months.

Quote:
The Lockerbie bomber has now lived longer than any of the four other convicted murderers released on compassionate grounds in Scotland, it has emerged.

Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi, 58, who has terminal cancer, was freed on August 20 last year. Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish Justice Secretary, said that medical reports had shown he had three months or less to live.

Despite that prognosis, the Libyan has now been alive for nine months, outliving Kevin McGhee, 33, who was released in August 2002 before dying two days short of nine months later. McGhee was granted compassionate release because his cancer required 24-hour nursing care. Ministers have been able to release prisoners on compassionate grounds since 1993.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 12:36 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Originally Posted by dtugg
No, you should treat him differently because he killed a bunch of people. I would say the same thing if he were white and no American died. If any other mass murderers have been released from prison in Scotland or England just because they got sick, that just further proves how stupid the law is.

It's our law. Deal with it and stop crying.

What he said.

Actually, I think the fact that he didn't kill a bunch of people (or not that bunch of people anyway, and no others that we know about), and that this was quite obviously going to be confirmed by the court if the appeal had gone through, sways me a bit.

But that's not really the point. It's our law, and our law states that the nature of the offence isn't taken into account when deciding on compassionate release. You can disagree all you like, but it's our law and we're keeping it that way.

Rolfe.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 01:27 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What he said.

Actually, I think the fact that he didn't kill a bunch of people (or not that bunch of people anyway, and no others that we know about), and that this was quite obviously going to be confirmed by the court if the appeal had gone through, sways me a bit.

But that's not really the point. It's our law, and our law states that the nature of the offence isn't taken into account when deciding on compassionate release. You can disagree all you like, but it's our law and we're keeping it that way.

Rolfe.
Thanks for popping in, Rolfe. But So far we've been avoiding the easy way of justifying the release (by which it WASN'T justified, of course). After exploring a bit just the details of compassionnate release vs. social norms, etc. this really did probably fit best in current/social issues.

Funk thanks for the specifics. Looking forward to Alt+F4's findings if possible. I've still got not much to add. I was mostly here to hear.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 02:55 PM   #91
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I popped in by accident, because I saw a thread on healthcare reform headlined. I don't really come to US politics since they split the forums.

The debate has been surprisingly more restrained and rational than it was in the early months, and I'm not sure why this is. Perhaps most of those who were really incensed but hadn't taken time to look at the specifics have just moved on?

I was originally mistaken about Karol Sikora. I either misremembered or was misinformed, and thought he was a highly respected expert. I realise now he isn't, and he does fit the description of a "hired gun" who will advance the argument desired by whoever is commissioning his opinion. Nevertheless, he was only one doctor, and several were involved. I'm not convinced the three-month prognosis wasn't in good faith.

However, I'm not convinced it was, either. It was awfully convenient for those who didn't want to see the appeal upheld, and in particular for those who fought tooth and nail to prevent the defence from having sight of certain documents. Appeal scheduled to reconvene in three months. Well, if we go with the three-month prognosis, then with luck he'll agree to desert the appeal which he'd probably be dead before he reached anyway, and that'll get that out of the way.

So England released Ronnie Biggs, who doesn't have cancer and is also still alive, as a helpful precedent, and it all arranged itself. Neat.

Rolfe.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 03:12 PM   #92
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You know, I'd give a minor body part to know what the "top secret" documents contain. I've never heard anything like the legal back-flips the government went through to prevent the defence seeing this material. Are posters here aware of that?

There was a fair amount of to-and-fro about this, with the court ordering disclosure and the crown appealling. The crown invoked some sort of national security clause (a public immunity certificate), and declared that disclosure would prejudice Britain's relations with a friendly power.

It wasn't just about publishing the material either. There was absolute opposition even to the defence legal team having sight of the documents in private and in confidence, with an undertaking to maintain confidence. The agreement was completely unprecedented.

A "special advocate" was to be appointed for Megrahi, someone unconnected to his legal team. He could meet with Megrahi's legal advisors before he saw the secret documents, but after he saw them he was to be allowed no further communication with the defendant or the defence legal team. He was to be the only person allowed to put any point to the court in Megrahi's favour that he thought might be contained in these documents. So long as confidentiality as regards the actual contents was maintained.

This in Scotland, in 2009. Under an SNP government. Frankly, I'm baffled and in some degree of shock.

Well, there's no danger of the contents of these documents coming out in court now.

Rolfe.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 03:13 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If it was actually possible to infect someone with prostate cancer, I'd suspect Kenny MacAskill (or his predecessor, since the diagnosis was actually made in 2008) of doing just that.

Correction. The election was in 2007, what am I thinking of. It's Kennys, all the way down.

Rolfe.
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Old 3rd June 2010, 03:27 PM   #94
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And what the hell was going on with Hans Kochler? The official UN observer to the trial and first appeal. I mean, he published detailed, blistering criticisms of both the original trial and the first appeal, blasting them as biassed, unfair miscarriages of justice.

So what happened? The documents lie there on a web server and people can read them. That's it. Makes you wonder what the point was, really.

Rolfe.
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Old 4th June 2010, 02:25 AM   #95
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And then it gets quiet. See, you can't make it impossible for people to speak their minds. The official story supporter needs absolute silence from the "innocent" corner to keep focused on the voices in their head chanting "guilty." And that in turn is necessary to saying the right thing and not appearing to be a terrorist sympathizer. Too much "innocent " noise never gets them to agree, only to get confused and stumble away to get their clarity back.

Thanks for sharing that about-face on Sikora. I'm not an official story supporter, but trying not to make a deal of it here. It helps to find areas of agreement. Many suspect a deal over the diagnosis, so do I. The items traded may differ in our versions, but just take that mysterious appeal drop next to a mysterious diagnosis and it's compelling.
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Old 4th June 2010, 03:04 AM   #96
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Well, you'd got quite far in the few days before I saw the thread. Reasonable, balanced discussion about the pros and cons of the compassionate release, and a number of comparable examples. I just thought it was maybe time to introduce the concept that the idea that he should be treated worse because he killed a bunch of Americans might be a bit flawed because it seems he didn't actually kill that bunch of Americans at all.

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Old 4th June 2010, 07:35 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, you'd got quite far in the few days before I saw the thread. Reasonable, balanced discussion about the pros and cons of the compassionate release, and a number of comparable examples. I just thought it was maybe time to introduce the concept that the idea that he should be treated worse because he killed a bunch of Americans might be a bit flawed because it seems he didn't actually kill that bunch of Americans at all.

Rolfe.
He is still a muslim though, which seems to matter to some.
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Old 4th June 2010, 08:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Ha! Ha! You're so clever.

So can you tell me which doctors were part of this conspiracy?

Perhaps they weren't consciously overestimating, but, being filled with the Love and Joy and Kindness that is letting mass murderers go so they can die in peace with loved ones, rather than screaming in terror, they erred on the side of overestimation, which, being filled with such Love, would actually make them feel even better -- he'd get even more time than just 3 months with Loved Ones.


I would expect hard, scientific statistics on person has X, here are the measurements that show the exact stage, and the known statistics of survival rates of people at that exact stage.
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Old 4th June 2010, 08:52 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by funk de fino
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, you'd got quite far in the few days before I saw the thread. Reasonable, balanced discussion about the pros and cons of the compassionate release, and a number of comparable examples. I just thought it was maybe time to introduce the concept that the idea that he should be treated worse because he killed a bunch of Americans might be a bit flawed because it seems he didn't actually kill that bunch of Americans at all.

Rolfe.
He is still a muslim though, which seems to matter to some.

He hit a plane headed to the US. It wasn't just to kill US citizens. It's terrorism -- it tells the whole world to watch out when dealing with the US.
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Old 4th June 2010, 08:54 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
He hit a plane headed to the US. It wasn't just to kill US citizens. It's terrorism -- it tells the whole world to watch out when dealing with the US.
So what? Where did the offence take place?
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Old 4th June 2010, 09:00 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
He hit a plane headed to the US. It wasn't just to kill US citizens. It's terrorism -- it tells the whole world to watch out when dealing with the US.

Well, no, he really didn't. Do you not read either this thread or the others you've participated in on this subject?

The SCCRC reported that there were six grounds on which the conviction was likely to be unsafe and unsound, and an appeal was in progress but adjourned. It is recognised by those who have perused the evidence presented that the appeal was inevitably going to succeed.

Maybe letting the real perpetrators off free and clear because the wrong man was prosecuted isn't quite the message you had in mind?

Rolfe.
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Old 4th June 2010, 09:02 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
So what? Where did the offence take place?

That's a really good question. Technically and legally, in Scotland, because that's where the people were actually, physically killed. So the case is under Scottish jurisdiction, no question.

Where was the bomb actually introduced into the airline baggage system though?

Rolfe.
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Old 4th June 2010, 09:07 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
He is still a muslim though, which seems to matter to some.

You know, it didn't at the time. It wasn't anything anyone spoke about. If it was ever menioned, it was only some sort of aside about Halal food in jail. The bombing wasn't anything to do with jihads or islamism or anything like that.

Even if you believe the Official Version, it was revenge for the bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi by the USA. Or if you believe the more probable version, it was revenge for the accidental (but negligent) shooting down of IA655 by the USS Vincennes.

This whole thing about it mattering that he's a Muslim all seems to have come about since 2001.

Rolfe.
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Old 4th June 2010, 01:19 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
He hit a plane headed to the US. It wasn't just to kill US citizens. It's terrorism -- it tells the whole world to watch out when dealing with the US.
To avoid needless friction, let's say "convicted of," or some qualified equivalent, huh?

And, not to excuse anything, the world should watch out when dealing with the U.S. This imperial largesse doesn't come free, it's got blowback trailing behind it wherever terrorists can make it so. So yeah, there's plusses and minusses of working with Washington.
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Old 4th June 2010, 01:22 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's a really good question. Technically and legally, in Scotland, because that's where the people were actually, physically killed. So the case is under Scottish jurisdiction, no question.

Where was the bomb actually introduced into the airline baggage system though?

Rolfe.
Exactly. The vagaries of whatever timing mechanism was really in there determine who's in charge? What if it had gotten off land over the sea? Would a school of Haddock be tasked with diving to find the clues? UN?
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Old 4th June 2010, 01:39 PM   #106
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In the middle of all the arguing last year, an English politician was heard to say something like "it's not fair they should get to handle this, if only the bomb had gone off ten minutes earlier we could have had all the attention...."

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Old 5th June 2010, 06:04 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Please everyone, refrain from mentioning how this monster might be innocent
Sorry but his guilt was never proven, and a person should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Thus this person should be presumed innocent.
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Old 5th June 2010, 07:11 AM   #108
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Well, legally of course, that isn't the case. There was a legal conviction, and the appeal was withdrawn.

This is the only basis on which those who have been howling for the "monster" to die in jail, preferably painfully, have justified their position. Caustic Logic, playing devil's advocate (or possibly Mr. Sarcasm) articulates that point.

Of course, as far as Scots law is concerned, his innocence of the crime isn't really important. He'd have been just as entitled to compassionate release if a CCTV camera had shown him smuggling the suitcase past security and his DNA had been found on the blast-damaged underwear. Scottish prisons don't have hospice facilities, and it's not unreasonable for terminally ill patients to be nursed at home for their last few weeks, irrespective of their crimes.

It's quite possible the original three-month prognosis was given in good faith, but I'm less convinced of that than I was. If he hadn't been released in August, the appeal would have reconvened in November, and it's fairly clear the Crown would really prefer that not to happen. I do rather suspect them of encouraging a shorter prognosis to justify releasing him well before the reconvene date.

I don't necessarily feel aggrieved that he's been released. He was certainly a Libyan spy, and quite possibly not a nice person at all. Who knows what he might actually have done during his career? However, none of that is a justification for life imprisonment in a foreign country. So he's had nine months at home, apparently with very good medical care. This is not a bad thing.

What I am hacked off about is the withdrawal of the appeal. There was no legal necessity for that to happen - compassionate release could have been granted, he could have returned to Libya, and the appeal could have gone ahead. It could even have continued after the death of the defendant. However, Megrahi's lawyers are on record as saying their client was pressurised into withdrawing the appeal, by being given to understand that his chances of being able to return home would be much improved if he did that.

Nice piece of manoeuvering. Meh.

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Last edited by Rolfe; 5th June 2010 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 5th June 2010, 08:05 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, no, he really didn't. Do you not read either this thread or the others you've participated in on this subject?

The SCCRC reported that there were six grounds on which the conviction was likely to be unsafe and unsound, and an appeal was in progress but adjourned. It is recognised by those who have perused the evidence presented that the appeal was inevitably going to succeed.

Maybe letting the real perpetrators off free and clear because the wrong man was prosecuted isn't quite the message you had in mind?

Rolfe.
Hold on, you're saying what, that this guy didn't actually do it, so that aided them in deciding to let him go?
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Old 5th June 2010, 08:41 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Looking forward to Alt+F4's findings if possible. I've still got not much to add. I was mostly here to hear.
This is what I have been able to find thus far:

Quote:
The Lockerbie bomber has lived longer than other convicted murderers who have been granted compassionate release, it has been disclosed.
Conservative justice spokesman Bill Aitken said that Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi "now surpasses the record for the longest amount of time a convicted murderer has been free after being granted compassionate release".
This was published on May 20, 2010. Are Bill Aitken and the Herald newspaper reliable?

http://breakingnews.heraldscotland.c...1274295662406A
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Old 5th June 2010, 09:38 AM   #111
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Reliable enough. That was stock agency material though, and it appeared in several papers. It was published just as soon as the previously longest-surviving record for someone convicted of murder had been passed - another cancer patient who survived just under 9 months.

Of course other prisoners granted compassionate release who were convicted of different offences have lived longer. And the nature of the offence isn't actually a consideration here anyway. Note that Ronnie Biggs, the great train robber who evaded punishment for decades by living in South America, was released before Megrahi and is still alive.

Which is why I think it's quite possible the three-month prognosis was given in good faith. But on the other hand, given how it enabled the appeal to be dispensed with at a crucial point, maybe not, either.

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Old 5th June 2010, 11:36 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Hold on, you're saying what, that this guy didn't actually do it, so that aided them in deciding to let him go?

Beerina, we've had this conversation before.

Essentially yes, what you say is true, but not in the way it might sound from that bare statement. In fact Kenny MacAskill was vehement in denouncing his appalling crime when he announced his release - not a whisper of an acknowledgment of the doubts about the safety of the conviction.

He didn't do it, which is horrendously embarrassing for everyone involved in the investigation and conviction, from the CIA to the Scottish criminal justice system. They'd been dragging their heels over getting the appeal to court for about seven years.

Everyone who has looked at the evidence agrees he didn't do it - with the exception of Richard Marquise, who has consistently refused to explain why he takes this view, merely falling back on the fact of the verdict. The US families who protest Megrahi's guilt also never give any reason and appear not to be familiar with the actual evidence.

It's perfectly clear that the identification evidence given by the Maltese shopkeeper Tony Gauci was - well, let's just say mistaken. It's easy to make a mistake like that, when it's been years since you served the customer in question. Especially if you know you stand to gain a couple of million bucks if your evidence leads to a conviction. Lacking that identification, the conviction couldn't stand. That was the inevitable outcome of the appeal, which had already started.

This was going to leave the justice system in the very, very embarrassing position of not having a conviction for the worst crime in Scottish history. They'd have had to re-open the enquiry, and what were the chances of finding who really did it after more than 20 years?

So much of middle east affairs for the past 20 years relies on Libya having agreed to take responsibility for Lockerbie. Not to mention the families of the victims having become multimillionnaires from the compensation money paid by Libya. Lots of reasons for not wanting to upset that particular apple cart.

Also, there was the matter of the documents the defence wanted to have produced in evidence, but the Crown wanted to keep secret. Don't know what that was all about. However, there seems to be evidence floating around in this case that the authorities didn't want to become public. Another good reason for not wanting the appeal to happen.

They couldn't have stopped it, of course. They were just doing their damndest to delay it. Seven years isn't bad going. Then Megrahi became terminally ill. This afforded the opportunity to use the carrot of getting back home to Libya to persuade Megrahi to withdraw the appeal. But it really had to be done before the appeal reconvened.

So yes. He didn't do it. This wasn't something the Crown wanted to be judicially confirmed. So it was convenient to let him go.

Rolfe.
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Old 5th June 2010, 02:17 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Not your decidion to make. I could say so should have that US serviceman prosecuted for the massacre in Vietnam.
Yes, he should have -and others should have been in there with him.
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Old 6th June 2010, 03:33 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Hold on, you're saying what, that this guy didn't actually do it, so that aided them in deciding to let him go?
As I think Rolfe covered, this is ironically true. Not outwardly of course - guilt is certain there, just irrelevant. But anyone who really knows the evidence knows the conviction was tenuous. "Unsafe." It did survive one ill-conceived appeal, but the second one packed more punch and had the SCCRC's ruling as encouragement. It is highly convenient that the man was compelled to drop that thing so it was never given a chance in court.

Yeah, I'm done keeping my convictions thinly veiled.

Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
This is what I have been able to find thus far:

This was published on May 20, 2010. Are Bill Aitken and the Herald newspaper reliable?

http://breakingnews.heraldscotland.c...1274295662406A
That's not a very deep source. Mr. Aitken is obnoxious, but what he says is true. We could also categorize by releasees of Arab descent, or those convicted for airplane-related incidents, etc. I suspect by now he'd top a lot of lists. Murder is one of the more poignant classifiers, of course.

It seems your main issue was preferrential treatment, and you were perhaps implying this came from the Scottish authorities, on account of Megrahi being an Arab terrorist, and the whole world outside USA being against USA and for its enemies. I'm sure part of that is my own imagination, but did you find any info to support the parts you do believe?
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Old 6th June 2010, 03:52 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
If you'll recall, convicted Lockerbie bomber Abdul al Megrahi was released from prison last year on "compassionate grounds." That meant he was likely to die within three months.

Back on May 20 we passed the nine months mark (since release, not the even earlier diagnosis), and he's still alive. Beats the record for convicted killers surviving after release. Suspicions are growing over that diagnosis. BP may as well have written it up.

So what do we do now? Are sporadic boycotts of Scotland sufficient? Should we send in mercenaries? Maybe even into Libya? Was Obama at fault? Can those doctors be jailed? Bomb Libya for good this time? Here are some excellent (if dated) recommendations from Americans from last year, mostly just about Megrahi personally:


http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news...7983#c14487983

Anyone with more current ideas, now that the plane has landed and he continues to taunt us with continued breathing? Is it too late for the torture?

Please everyone, refrain from mentioning how this monster might be innocent or this will be sent to the CT forum. Just normal politics as far as this thread is concerned - convicted mass-murdering terrorist Islamist scum set free and what now? Who pays and how?
I'm sorry, but why is a thread about a Lybian released from a Scottish jail in USA Politics?
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Old 6th June 2010, 04:01 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
I'm sorry, but why is a thread about a Lybian released from a Scottish jail in USA Politics?
American plane...the attack was targeted at the US....I suppose its always arguable Do you count the nationality of the plane or where it fell?
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Old 6th June 2010, 04:10 AM   #117
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Definitely arbitrary placement. I meant to engage angry and ignorant Americans. Was a little upset when it was moved, twice I think, but then it was quickly plopped back here. I wouldn't care now if it was moved, to about anywhere but the CT ghetto. I'll leave it to a pro to figure out just where it best fits.
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Old 6th June 2010, 04:27 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
American plane...the attack was targeted at the US....I suppose its always arguable Do you count the nationality of the plane or where it fell?
Ah, didn't realise that bit (I was 9 months old when it happened).
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Old 6th June 2010, 04:29 AM   #119
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He is still alive but cancer prognosis can be variable. I have known individuals given a year that died in three months and others given three months last a couple of years.

In prison he was in decline both mentally and physically and may well have lasted only three months. In Libya no expense is being spared in his treatment and he got a lift from being allowed to go home. Nevertheless, he isn't living it up in the Tripoli cafe scene and is too ill to do interviews and the like. I'm not sure that 9 months on chemotherapy is all that great a prize to win.

In short I don't think this is out of the bounds of normal medical experience and does not merit any conspiracy speculation.

As an issue in Scotland I can't recall the last time I have heard anybody mention it. It certainly didn't headline in the recent election. Of course the generally held view that he was a patsy may have some bearing on the lack of interest.
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Old 6th June 2010, 06:52 AM   #120
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You're right, the issue isn't getting headline treatment at all, these days. That nasty little piece, unattributed, quoting Bill Aitken, a Conservative member of the Scottish parliament, who of course will miss no chance to pour bile on the SNP, is the only thing I've seen. It's certainly not the talk of the steamie.

Quote:
Conservative justice spokesman Bill Aitken said that Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi "now surpasses the record for the longest amount of time a convicted murderer has been free after being granted compassionate release".

The Libyan, who has terminal prostate cancer, was controversially released from jail on August 20 last year.

Details published on the Scottish Government website showed 38 prisoners have been granted compassionate release since 1993.

Megrahi has now lived longer than the other convicted murderers who have been freed over this period - prompting fresh calls for Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill to release medical reports on the bomber.

I don't know who's doing the calling, except maybe Bill Aitken. Well, actually, the last part of the article makes that fairly clear.

I've seen no confirmation of this part at all, and I suspect it's fabricated.

Quote:
At the same time it was reported Megrahi has been working on a television documentary, which could be released later this year.

Mr Aitken said: "Since the Lockerbie bomber was released, he has enjoyed a life of luxury, celebrated his birthday and now surpasses the record for the longest amount of time a convicted murderer has been free after being granted compassionate release.

Well, again, Ronnie Biggs is still alive, it's just that he wasn't convicted of murder. Bill has just waited until the previous time limit reached by a murderer was passed, and penned his spiteful little piece.

Megrahi put a few things on a web site soon after he was released, and then nothing. It seems likely he's not really well enough for that sort of thing. Of course his family is wealthy and he won't exactly be living in a hovel, but lying in bed hooked up to a morphine drip, which is what is probably going on, isn't "enjoying a life of luxury" in most people's books. It's not impossible someone has filmed him for a documentary I suppose.

This is just Bill Aitken trying to score a nasty little political point. Nobody's listening.

Originally Posted by Nogbad
Of course the generally held view that he was a patsy may have some bearing on the lack of interest.

I don't know what you mean by a "patsy". He was Director of the Centre for Strategic Studies in Tripoli, who was passing through Luqa airport on the morning on 21st December 1988 on some undisclosed (possibly nefarious) business. He had no opportunity to smuggle a bomb into the luggage of the Frankfurt-bound flight, and in any case there was no unaccounted-for bag on that flight.

The bomb that blew up Maid of the Seas didn't go on at Luqa - it probably went on at Heathrow. Which means Megrahi didn't do it. He was basically fitted up. Is that what you mean by a "patsy"?

Rolfe.
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