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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Ahmed Jibril , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103 , Scotland issues , US-Scotland relations

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Old 7th July 2010, 09:59 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
And a big problem is he was hired by Libya to declare he had 3 months to live.

It sure seemed to convince you last summer:

Now we know Sikora was hired by Libya to give a 3-month prognosis, and it was his prognosis that led to his release.

And, of course, Sikora dodged his complicity in this for nearly a year. Remember last November thaht he was shocked shocked shocked that he was still alive? Freaking scumbag.

Yes. You must have missed the post where I said that I'd reconsidered my opinion of Karol Sikora after seeing a bit more of his form in other cases. I was mistaken.

When you say "paid" or "hired", it's normal for someone in this position to be able to get their own medical opinion. It's normal for the medical opinion to be paid his normal consultancy fee. Sikora did what it seems he usually does - support his client's position if it can be reasonably supported. He's fallen foul of that one in other cases, too.

So what is your point, caller? There were a lot of people who wanted Megrahi to be released for a whole lot of different reasons, AS WE HAVE DISCUSSED TO DEATH IN THE OTHER THREAD, and Sikora's opinion was one of the least of the issues.

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Old 7th July 2010, 09:59 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Now we know Sikora was hired by Libya to give a 3-month prognosis, and it was his prognosis that led to his release.
Not true.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:01 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think Sikora was just shrugging with a sort of "all bets are off" remark. Word from Libya is that Megrahi is off all active treatment and on a morphine drip. You don't linger very long in that condition.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:02 AM   #164
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I've asked for the thread to be merged, but of course these things take time. It's funny how a thread can be as active as hell and a lot of people take no notice, then as soon as someone starts another one on EXACTLY the same topic, a lot of people suddenly leap in and start posting stuff that has been debunked to hell and gone right here, like yesterday.

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Old 7th July 2010, 10:04 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
And a big problem is he was hired by Libya to declare he had 3 months to live.


It sure seemed to convince you last summer:

Now we know Sikora was hired by Libya to give a 3-month prognosis, and it was his prognosis that led to his release.

And, of course, Sikora dodged his complicity in this for nearly a year. Remember last November thaht he was shocked shocked shocked that he was still alive? Freaking scumbag.
you know? one quote in one newspaper?
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:12 AM   #166
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Even the trolling on this has reached a new low.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:16 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
When you say "paid" or "hired", it's normal for someone in this position to be able to get their own medical opinion. It's normal for the medical opinion to be paid his normal consultancy fee. Sikora did what it seems he usually does - support his client's position if it can be reasonably supported. He's fallen foul of that one in other cases, too.
Because I don't recall much being made at the time about his being paid by Libya. It was framed as a concurring opinion by an acclaimed university doctor.

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So what is your point, caller? There were a lot of people who wanted Megrahi to be released for a whole lot of different reasons, AS WE HAVE DISCUSSED TO DEATH IN THE OTHER THREAD, and Sikora's opinion was one of the least of the issues.

Rolfe.
Indeed. It appears the squeeze was on from all sides to release him for political reasons, and the "medical compassion" angle was just the cover to fool the rubes.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:18 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
you know? one quote in one newspaper?
Has he denied the quote is true?

Even last November he admitted his clients were eager for a 3-month prognosis.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:23 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Has he denied the quote is true?

Even last November he admitted his clients were eager for a 3-month prognosis.
i don't eve know if he knows that he was being quoted. i just wondered how quickly that this is a known fact. was not aware of that fact.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:24 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Has he denied the quote is true?

Even last November he admitted his clients were eager for a 3-month prognosis.
Others have dismissed that fact that the release was based on his prognosis only. The evidence for that has already been posted.
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:26 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
i don't eve know if he knows that he was being quoted. i just wondered how quickly that this is a known fact. was not aware of that fact.
Riiiiiiigggggghhhhhtttt...
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Old 7th July 2010, 10:29 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Others have dismissed that fact that the release was based on his prognosis only. The evidence for that has already been posted.
I know. There was also the BP oil deal.
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Old 7th July 2010, 11:42 AM   #173
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Sigh, It seems that merging the threads has had no effect as regards prompting posters to actually read what has already been posted on the subject.

The people who actually had the authority to repease Megrahi were the Scottish government. They had no interest in a BP oil deal; on the contrary they would have preferred not to agree to the wishes of the Westminster government, who did want him released because of the oil deal.

However, the Scottish government wanted him released for a completely different reason. There was marked official reluctance for Megrahi's appeal to come to court. It had been delayed for about six years at the time of the release, but it was set to come back to court in November last year. Documents were sought by the defence that the government was determined would not be released. Even the parts of the appeal that weren't covered by this veil of secrecy were clearly strong enough that the appeal was likely to be successful. Which would leave everyone in the embarrassing position of having 270 unsolved murders on their hands.

Offering Megrahi the chance of compassionate release if only he would be so good as to abandon that appeal was an extremely attractive option. However, that meant having a medical prognosis of around a 3-month survival time. If the Libyan government hadn't paid Sikora enough, I just bet Kenny MacAskill would have been prepared to chip in.

I've explained this before. To the very people who are posting now.

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Old 7th July 2010, 11:44 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
Mass murderer Abdel Baset Al-Megrahi, who did just eight years of his life sentence after he was convicted of killing 270 people, was released last year on the dubious grounds that he had just three months to live. He returned to Libya to receive a hero's welcome, and now almost a year later he's living in luxury. What's even more maddening is that apparently, the man is still breathing.

It turns out the diagnosis was based on the opinion of just one doctor who now says that he could live as long as 10 years.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/...bie-bombe.html
Who did Megrahi murder?
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Old 7th July 2010, 11:50 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Indeed. It appears the squeeze was on from all sides to release him for political reasons, and the "medical compassion" angle was just the cover to fool the rubes.

I don't know who you're calling a rube. The ramifications of all this weren't exactly top secret in Scotland.

The really furiously annoying part of it all was the withdrawal of the appeal. So many people had been pinning a lot of hope on that, as regards finding out what the hell did happen to that aeroplane, and why Megrahi was convicted of smuggling a bomb on board on evidence that wouldn't have got him a parking ticket under normal circumstances.

You've posted all this before. You seem completely incapable of comprehending that there were many different aspects to this complex case, aspects most people outside the USA seem to be able to get their heads round. They've been explained to you several times, but you just go away, then reappear every time someone starts a new thread, posting as if you'd never heard a word about it before.

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Old 7th July 2010, 11:53 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Who did Megrahi murder?

Good question. I've remarked before that anyone who believes Megrahi smuggled the bomb on board that aircraft, on the basis of the actual evidence available, should come to the appropriate thread in the CT forum. No takers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=169917

Ignorant outrage is very easy, knowing nothing about the case.

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Old 7th July 2010, 04:14 PM   #177
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Here's an interview in which the official spokesman of the US Families of Pan Am 103 explains why he's certain Megrahi blew up the plane. It's a pity it's Gorgeous George doing the interviewing, but I swear Paxman couldn't have done a better job.

Hint. Almost everything Duggan says about the case is factually flat wrong, and demonstrably so.

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Old 7th July 2010, 04:56 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know who you're calling a rube. The ramifications of all this weren't exactly top secret in Scotland.

The really furiously annoying part of it all was the withdrawal of the appeal. So many people had been pinning a lot of hope on that, as regards finding out what the hell did happen to that aeroplane, and why Megrahi was convicted of smuggling a bomb on board on evidence that wouldn't have got him a parking ticket under normal circumstances.

You've posted all this before. You seem completely incapable of comprehending that there were many different aspects to this complex case, aspects most people outside the USA seem to be able to get their heads round. They've been explained to you several times, but you just go away, then reappear every time someone starts a new thread, posting as if you'd never heard a word about it before.

Rolfe.
So the way to overturn what may be a wrongful conviction in Scotland, particularly a politically charged one, is to overstate the severity of an illness, declare the prisoner has 3 months to live, and then release him on compassionate grounds?

No, that doesn't sound bush league at all.
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Old 7th July 2010, 06:03 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
So the way to overturn what may be a wrongful conviction in Scotland, particularly a politically charged one, is to overstate the severity of an illness, declare the prisoner has 3 months to live, and then release him on compassionate grounds?

No, that doesn't sound bush league at all.

No, the way to avoid having to overturn the conviction, and indeed to avoid having that very very dodgy evidence looked at again, is to release the prisoner on compassionate grounds. All the while going on about how guilty he is.

That way we don't have to produce the confidential documents we've been fighting for several years not to have to reveal, and we don't have to have a bright light shone on the kangaroo court that happened at Camp Zeist, and most importantly we can go on pretending that crime was solved so we don't have to get back to looking for someone else.

If it was possible to give someone prostate cancer on purpose, I'd suspect Kenny MacAskill of doing just that.

I know this has been explained to you before. More than once.

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Old 7th July 2010, 06:07 PM   #180
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Hmm this week's private eye mentions that briggs is still alive of course but the record appears to be held by Ernest Saunders at 19 years (in fairness he really did fake his symptoms).
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Old 7th July 2010, 06:16 PM   #181
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I don't really know much about this issue, whether he did it or not, whether the doctor lied or not, but I want to share a point about doctors.

When giving a prognosis, a doctor will usually lean towards the pessimistic end of the scale. If you tell someone they have 3 months to live and they do 6, then everyone is very happy. If you tell someone they have 6 months to live and they do 3, you have some explaining to do to emotional relatives who don't understand that a doctor can almost never give an absolutely accurate prediction of lifespan. It avoids complaints and malpractice issues to air on the side of caution.

That's all. Make of it what you will.
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Old 7th July 2010, 06:19 PM   #182
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In my experience, doctors will do all they can to avoid giving a prognosis in actual terms of time, for much the reasons you suggest. If really pushed, they might give a wide range of times "anywhere from 3 months to 2 years", while explaining how inexact a science it is and that we really can't tell.
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Old 7th July 2010, 07:03 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
In my experience, doctors will do all they can to avoid giving a prognosis in actual terms of time, for much the reasons you suggest. If really pushed, they might give a wide range of times "anywhere from 3 months to 2 years", while explaining how inexact a science it is and that we really can't tell.
Just so. The unfortunate thing is that patients and their relatives often have selective hearing when it come to those kind of statements, and will edit out the lower estimates.
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Old 8th July 2010, 02:35 AM   #184
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I don't really think that was what Karol Sikora was doing though, to be fair to his detractors. (I have memories of him as a well-respected expert, from many years ago. Either he has changed his approach as he became more senior, or I was mistaken in the first place.)

Look at his involvement in the case of Lisa Norris.

Quote:
Miss Norris was given 58% too much radiation during her treatment at the Beatson and died at her family home on 18 October 2006.
An internal inquiry following her death found that she had died from her tumour and not from the overdose.
However, that was disputed by an independent report from one of the country's top cancer experts. [....]
Miss Norris's father, Ken, did not want to comment directly on the proceedings.
But his lawyer, Cameron Fyfe, said: "We had a report from Professor Sikora, an expert in oncology, who confirmed that Lisa would probably have survived had it not been for the overdose.
"After further inquiry the professor revised his report to say it was a possibility, not a probability.
"Proof in Scots law is based on the balance of probabilities and that is not enough for the fiscal to proceed with the fatal accident inquiry.
"I think the family are disappointed that Professor Sikora was unable to adhere to his initial view but they accept that it was not appropriate for the FAI to proceed in these circumstances."

That is absolutely classic "hired gun" behaviour. Oh, you think the radiation overdose killed your little girl? Yes, I can go along with that, here's an expert witness report saying so. Then they get to the point where the experts from both sides confer to try to reach an agreement, and he realises he's not on solid ground at all. He revises his report to be less certain than it was originally, and the case collapses.

It's not really, consciously dishonest. It's unprofessional. It's an outlook that aligns itself too closely with the side of the dispute you're talking to, and fails to take a properly professional, unbiassed, disinterested view. I've seen it scores of times in the witness box, often from senior academics.

As y'all know, I'm a big fan of David Colquhoun. What David has to say about Karol is quite distressing.

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=2073

Quote:
CRC Public Relations is a conservative PR firm previously known as Creative Response Concepts. ‘Creative’ appears to mean ‘lying’, but I guess that is what PR is all about.

Disgracefully, Karol Sikora, a former oncologist at the Hammersmith Hospital, supported CPR on US television. See Karol Sikora makes a fool of himself at NHSblogdoctor.
“Karol Sikora had been duped by a slick American businessman into providing a “rent-a-quote” service for a notorious right-wing American organisation”
Sikora now works for the UK’s only private university and a private cancer treatment company. He is also famous for claiming, falsely, to be a professor at Imperial College (he has an honorary contract with the Imperial College Hospital Trust but nothing with the University). And for promoting a load of nonsense about alternative medicine (a lot more on that coming up shortly).

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=1466

Quote:
Karol Sikora, formerly an oncologist at the Hammersmith Hospital, is now Dean of Medicine at the University of Buckingham (the UK’s only private university). He is also medical director at CancerPartners UK, a private cancer company.

He recently shot to fame when he appeared in a commercial in the USA sponsored by “Conservatives for Patients’ Rights”, to pour scorn on the NHS, and to act as an advocate for the USA’s present health system. A very curious performance. Very curious indeed.

His attitude to quackery is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. One was somewhat alarmed to see him sponsoring a course at what was, at first, called the British College of Integrated Medicine, and has now been renamed the Faculty of Integrated Medicine That grand title makes it sound like part of a university. It isn’t.

The alarm was as result of the alliance with Dr Rosy Daniel (who promotes an untested herbal conconction, Carctol, for ‘healing’ cancer) and Dr Mark Atkinson (a supplement salesman who has also promoted the Qlink pendant. The Qlink pendant is a simple and obvious fraud designed to exploit paranoia about WiFi killing you.

The first list of speakers on the proposed diploma in Integrated Medicine was an unholy alliance of outright quacks and commercial interests. It turned out that, although Karol Sikora is sponsoring the course, he knew nothing about the speakers. I did and when I pointed this out to Terence Kealey, vice-chancellor of Buckingham, he immediately removed Rosy Daniel from directing the Diploma. At the moment the course is being revamped entirely by Andrew Miles. There is hope that he’ll do a better job. It has not yet been validated by the University of Buckingham. Watch this space for developments.

Stop press It is reported in the Guardian that Professor Sikora has been describing his previous job at Imperial College with less than perfect accuracy. Oh dear. More developments in the follow-up.

I happened across this lot after I'd posted my out-dated opinion about Karol Sikora being a respected expert. He may have been at one time. Now he's something else.

Which is actually fairly peripheral to the Megrahi affair. In that situation, all parties involved in the decision were aligned in their wishes. Libya wanted their human sacrifice home, being as they didn't believe Lockerbie was a Libyan operation in the first place and had only agreed to pay compensation for political advantage. The Westminster government wanted him home to get rid of this perennial bump in the road that was complicating their oil deals. And the Holyrood government wanted him home so they could get that appeal stopped. Having Megrahi die in a Scottish jail was also politically unacceptable, as it would have done lasting damage to UK/Middle Eastern relations.

In that situation, just who was paying whom to come up with an agreeable opinion really isn't all that important.

Rolfe.
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Old 8th July 2010, 03:00 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I know. There was also the BP oil deal.
Yes, nice handwave. Other expert opinions. But you know that.
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Old 8th July 2010, 04:21 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Here's an interview in which the official spokesman of the US Families of Pan Am 103 explains why he's certain Megrahi blew up the plane. It's a pity it's Gorgeous George doing the interviewing, but I swear Paxman couldn't have done a better job.

Hint. Almost everything Duggan says about the case is factually flat wrong, and demonstrably so.

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LOL. He doesn't even know how many families of victims he represents. And ends by calling Jim Swire and Prof. Black "cranks". Britain still has these broad libel laws?
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Old 8th July 2010, 02:03 PM   #187
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I had to listen to it again because I was too busy ROTFL to take it all in the first time.

Frank Duggan is an odd cove. He was a political placeman parachuted into the Families of PA103 by the US government, and he seems to have found himself a cosy little sinecure. These people are all now extremely rich, thanks to the very large compensation payments they received from both Pan Am and Gadaffi. They can well afford a paid spokesman to keep the media off their backs.

I'm genuinely shocked though, at how ignorant he is about his subject. There's a huge amount of information available, from official reports and judgements to jpgs of crucial items of evidence. It's not that hard to become informed. Nobody's paying me to do it, but I could wipe the floor with him on the subject after less than a year, compared to his boasted 20 years involvement. I could actually make a far better case for Megrahi's guilt than he can. It wouldn't be a strong case, compared to the evidence suggesting he didn't do it, but there are a couple of pieces of evidence you could build a rational discussion out of. I've never heard him mention either of them. He just tells us how angry this all makes him, and shouts over anyone expressing a contrary opinion.

Just about every single thing he says in that interview is simply WRONG. He says there's no doubt in the mind of anyone who has looked at the evidence that Megrahi is guilty. This is utter nonsense. It's actually extremely difficult to find anyone in that category - in the end you come down to David Shayler of all people, and a couple of guys who were involved in the original investigation who won't consider they might have got it wrong. In contrast, the internet and the quality press are pretty much lousy with people who don't see how anyone could have been convicted on the evidence presented.

George counters (with some justification) that the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Board thought there was a possible miscarriage of justice. Duggan dismisses this by maintaining that the evidence presented to the SCCRB was the work of Robert Black and Jim Swire, not Megrahi's lawyers (which is nonsense), and says it was all dismissed. Which it wasn't. He then admits 3 or 4 points were to go before the court again (actually it was six). He's correct that all the points we know about (four of them) concerned the evidence of Tony Gauci. (There were two more points, but these were never made public.)

His misunderstanding of Gauci's evidence is laughable. He declares Gauci was interviewed 19 times and gave 19 statements because 19 jurisdictions were involved in the incident - 19 different countries. "So it's not surprising there were a few inconsistencies." This is nonsense. Gauci actually gave about 25 statements, though only 21 were produced in court, the others having unaccountably gone astray. They were all given to the Scottish and/or the Maltese detectives, as he was interviewed and re-interviewed, and said he remembered something else, or changed his story. Where Frank got the idea that he did 19 identical de novo interviews with 19 different jurisdictions I can't imagine - his own fevered imagination, it seems.

When George asked him why he dismissed the doubts about this testimony, he simply declared that the judges found it credible. George then asked what he thought about the $2 million bribe Gauci had been paid by the US government for this testimony. Bluster. Who says he was paid that? As George said, it's a matter of public record. Frank missed a trick, because although it appears to be true, I think it's a massive leak (underpinned by the humble shopkeeper's current luxury lifestyle in Australia) rather than something with full documentation. But Frank could only bluster, and then, as he always does, get incoherent with anger.

Frank then missed another trick. George asked him his opinion about the discrepancies between Gauci's description of his customer and Megrahi himself, but he made a mistake. He declared that Gauci said the purchaser was "in his sixties". This is wrong. Gauci said he was about 50, or perhaps over 50. (Megrahi was 36.) Frank didn't pull him up on it, instead admitted he's "not that familiar" with Gauci's evidence. George quite reasonably suggests that perhaps he should be. Frank falls back on "the judges thought he was credible!"

George points out that Gauci's evidence was in fact the decisive piece of evidence against Megrahi, and that if that falls, the conviction falls. Frank gets back in bluster mode, declaring that no, there's "a huge amount of evidence". This isn't the case of course. If you take out Gauci's evidence, which should never have stood in the first place, there is only one very circumstantial and very questionable piece of evidence against Megrahi left. Frank just doesn't get it.

He crowns his tirade by declaring that Megrahi lied on oath - in particular that he lied about being in Gauci's store, which is a bit circular if Gauci's identification evidence is what is in question. But he lied and lied and lied repeatedly! In court, under oath! Er, Megrahi never took the witness stand in court. He never opened his mouth. (This may have been a bad mistake.) Anyone with even a trivial acquaintance with the case knows this. (Megrahi seems to have lied to a journalist making a documentary at one stage. Er, so?)

This is about the point where Duggan hangs up on Galloway, after calling the Emeritus Professor of Scots Law at Edinburgh University and the spokesman for the UK families of Flight 103 (the father of one of the victims) "cranks".

Why does this matter in this thread? It matters because Frank Duggan is the voice US residents hear in their media, pontificating about this case. It is Frank those posters are echoing and parroting, when they declare that Megrahi is unquestionably guilty and start castigating the Scottish criminal justice system. A man who has no personal connection with the incident, who knows less about it than someone who has spent a few weeks reading around the subject on the internet, and who is being paid handsomely to defend the status quo by people who owe their current wealth to the Official Story, and have a vested interest in not having that challenged.

Think about that, posters.

Rolfe.
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Old 8th July 2010, 03:34 PM   #188
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Usan senators still think they run the world

'...Four US senators are calling on Britain to investigate the circumstances surrounding the release of the man convicted of the Lockerbie bombing. ...'

From http://www.ukwirednews.com/news.php/...-release-probe

As usual, the geopolitical understanding of Usan politicians is lamentably non-existent. Before the Usan politicos embarrass themselves further and try and throw their weight around, someone should have told them that the only authority in this matter is Scotland - not the UK. As such they have absolutely no chance of getting their way. In fact, I understand that the official Scottish response is is 'Go forth and multiply ya bamheids.'

The deep anti-Britishness of the USA governing bodies is on show yet again (cf Obama calling BP British Petroleum). So much for the non-existent 'special relationship'. It seems its only 'special' when UK politicians do what Usans want.

Al Megrahi was released on compassionate grounds and happily, no huffing ad puffing by Usan nonentities with the idea that they run the world and also sadly with a deeply distasteful, blood lust will change that one iota.
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Old 8th July 2010, 03:46 PM   #189
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Well, of course. When your pathetic country earns our respect again, we'll let you play with the big boys again. Until then, do as your told, and all will be right.

What's the problem here?

P.S. You live in Guam, right?
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Old 8th July 2010, 03:48 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
As usual, the geopolitical understanding of Usan politicians is lamentably non-existent. Before the Usan politicos embarrass themselves further and try and throw their weight around, someone should have told them that the only authority in this matter is Scotland - not the UK.
False. Westminster parliament is supreme. It certianly could investigate the matter. It certian could (although won't) abolish scotland.

Quote:
As such they have absolutely no chance of getting their way. In fact, I understand that the official Scottish response is is 'Go forth and multiply ya bamheids.'
Um no. Scotland would probably rather not talk about it.
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Old 8th July 2010, 03:53 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
Before the American politicos embarrass themselves further and try and throw their weight around, someone should have told them that the only authority in this matter is Scotland - not the UK.
If Scotland ever sends its own ambassador to the U.S., perhaps they can petition him. Until then, the UK ambassador represents Scotland in bilateral relations. The four American Senators understand this. Apparently, you don't.

I have an idea: perhaps you should stop embarrassing yourself, before worrying about what American politicians are doing.
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Old 8th July 2010, 03:54 PM   #192
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Strange. EJ's little opinion pieces seem to have little to do with the news article and reality.
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Old 8th July 2010, 04:01 PM   #193
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There's already a thread on this you know. If the "USans" would stop listening to Frank Duggan, who knows less about Lockerbie than my cat does, despite being paid by the (very very rich) Lockerbie relatives to defend the official understanding of the incident (to which they owe these riches), they might find more of a sense of proportion about the incident.

Here's the official spokesman (read, US government placeman) of the American Families of Pan Am 103 showing his mastery of his subject.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


ETA: Clue. Virtually every single thing Duggan says about the case in that interview is flat wrong, and demonstrably so.

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Old 8th July 2010, 04:10 PM   #194
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Old 8th July 2010, 04:53 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
Um no. Scotland would probably rather not talk about it.

Actually, I just heard Scotland talking about it quite a lot. (Question Time, from Edinburgh.) They managed to go nearly the full length without even mentioning the appeal. Forsyth finally mentioned it, and Nicola Sturgeon promptly leaped in to insist that there was no requirement on Megrahi to withdraw the appeal as a quid pro quo for the compassionate release. "He didn't have to withdraw the appeal. He chose to do that."

That's a flat lie, Nicola, and I say this as one of your most loyal political supporters.

Rolfe.
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Old 9th July 2010, 02:43 AM   #196
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I've been thinking about Frank Duggan and his very peculiar attitude. It's very bad form for a paid spokesman to come over the way he does. Bluster and aggression and "I just get so angry" might be understandable from someone who actually lost a loved one at Lockerbie. They're emotionally involved, and they weren't hand-picked for their PR skills. Duggan has no personal stake in the affair, and if he's for anything at all, it's surely for a PR role. (In contrast Jim Swire, the spokesman of the UK Pan Am 103 families, who lost his daughter on the plane, is capable of discussing the matter calmly and rationally and based on the evidence.)

Duggan's ignorance of the case seems positively wilful. It takes a special sort of blinkers to be paid money to discuss the issue, and to go on TV and radio for that specific purpose, and to confront people in that environment who are familiar with the evidence, and still know essentially bugger-all about it.

In this context the irritability, the shouting over anyone trying to put a contrary view, and putting the phone down, seems like a defence mechanism. He doesn't want to know anything about the case, to become informed about the issue, because if he did, he might have to re-examine his position.

It works, though. As far as I can see, he's often the only voice on US programmes dealing with the issue. So his bluster and baseless assertions are all US audiences get to hear, most of the time. If this is the extent of exposure US senators get to the subject, which is quite possible, no wonder they have a rather one-sided view of the matter.

Duggan is quite pro-active in making sure only his side of the story gets an airing. For example, six months ago the Lockerbie parish priest who was nearly killed that night had been invited to contribute an address to be included in the 21st anniversary commemoration of the disaster at Arlington. Frank Duggan took exception to his involvement in the proceedings, and blocked his contribution.

http://www.ayrshirepost.net/ayrshire...2545-25456040/

Quote:
Canon Patrick Keegans was parish priest at Lockerbie when the attack occurred.
And he has spoken at previous services at the Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia, where there is a memorial cairn.
Canon Keegans had sent over an address to be read on Monday – the 21st anniversary of the atrocity.
But it wasn’t read out, after the leader of the American victims’ group took exception to part of it. [....]
But Frank Duggan, president of Victims of Pan Am 103, saw the excerpt of Canon Keegans’ address, printed by The Herald newspaper.
And he said: “Fr Keegans’ remarks, as printed in the newspaper, were deemed to be very inappropriate for this memorial service.
“It is a day to remember 270 innocent souls murdered in an act of state-sponsored terrorism.
“It is not a day for politics, a discussion of the bomber's trial and conviction or of his health.
“Fr Keegans’ views are his own and are quite contrary to those held by the victims families in the US.
“It is unfortunate that he has chosen this day to publicly express those views in the press.”
Canon Keegans’ address also included moving and poignant tributes to victims on the ground and in the air.

The address was published, so anyone can see and judge for themselves how appropriate or inappropriate it was.

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...not-being.html

In contrast, an address from a supporter of the US relatives' position was delivered, the text of which is also in the public domain.

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...o-brennan.html

Quote:
But on behalf of President Obama, and on behalf of his administration, let me say this. The evidence was clear. The trial was fair. The guilt of Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi was proven beyond a reasonable doubt. His conviction stands. The sentence was just. And nothing—not his unjustified release and certainly not a deplorable scene on a tarmac in Tripoli—will ever change those facts or wash the guilt from his hands or from the hands of those who assisted him in carrying out this heinous crime.

It's hard to see how this was in any way less political, less a discussion of Megrahi's trial etc. than Fr. Keegans' address was. However, Duggan blocked one while warmly introducing the other.

Of course, Duggan didn't get his job by chance. He got it as a US government placeman appointed to manage the relatives of the victims. It's all a bit incestuous really.

Rolfe.
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:01 AM   #197
E.J.Armstrong
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Originally Posted by JimBenArm View Post
Well, of course. When your pathetic country earns our respect again, we'll let you play with the big boys again. Until then, do as your told, and all will be right.

What's the problem here?

P.S. You live in Guam, right?
An anti-british Usan. Who would have thought it?
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:04 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
False. Westminster parliament is supreme. It certianly could investigate the matter. It certian could (although won't) abolish scotland.
false. EWestminster has absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter.



Quote:
Um no. Scotland would probably rather not talk about it.
Er Scotland has no problem talking about it. It just doesn't do what jumped up senators want. Tough.
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:07 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by ARubberChickenWithAPulley View Post
If Scotland ever sends its own ambassador to the U.S., perhaps they can petition him. Until then, the UK ambassador represents Scotland in bilateral relations. The four American Senators understand this. Apparently, you don't.

I have an idea: perhaps you should stop embarrassing yourself, before worrying about what American politicians are doing.
I have an idea. Why don't Usan politicians learn that they don't run the world and stop embarrassing themselves.

I know its annoying for Usans but there is not going to be any change in the decision. You will just have to suck it up.
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Old 9th July 2010, 04:08 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
Strange. EJ's little opinion pieces seem to have little to do with the news article and reality.
Reported for breaching the forum rules.
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