ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Ahmed Jibril , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103 , Scotland issues , US-Scotland relations

Reply
Old 9th July 2010, 04:09 AM   #201
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 40,903
Edit: Not worth it.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill

Last edited by lionking; 9th July 2010 at 04:13 AM.
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2010, 04:11 AM   #202
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 40,903
Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
I have an idea. Why don't Usan politicians learn that they don't run the world and stop embarrassing themselves.

I know its annoying for Usans but there is not going to be any change in the decision. You will just have to suck it up.
Reported for being off topic.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2010, 04:20 AM   #203
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
I know its annoying for Usans but there is not going to be any change in the decision. You will just have to suck it up.

That was roughly the consensus of the Question Time panel. The politicians on the panel (except Nicola, obviously) disagreed with the decision to release Megrahi. Some of this may of course be retrospective, from people who would have had no problem with it if Megrahi had had the decency to die on schedule. However, none of them thought there was any point in an enquiry into it. They know on what basis the decision was made, it was transparent, and although they disagreed, they could see no point in further enquiry.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th July 2010, 11:56 AM   #204
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Originally Posted by E.J.Armstrong View Post
false. EWestminster has absolutely no jurisdiction in this matter.
So we need to add parliamentary sovereignty to the list of concepts you don't understand.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2010, 10:30 PM   #205
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Here's an interview in which the official spokesman of the US Families of Pan Am 103 explains why he's certain Megrahi blew up the plane. It's a pity it's Gorgeous George doing the interviewing, but I swear Paxman couldn't have done a better job.

Hint. Almost everything Duggan says about the case is factually flat wrong, and demonstrably so.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Rolfe.
I feel a little bad not joining in here, but there are many many many discussions about Megrah's "new lease on life," a friggin immortal now. Most do not have Rolfe and a higher than average average member IQ going for them,so I've been needed around.

Thanks for bringing that video here. I thought the worst thing he said was that there was unamymity anong all the U.S family members about Megrahi's guilt. I don't mind that he can't cite the number of families he represents, but that he's able to smugly say all those unknown number of people believe what he does is just slimy as all hell.

True, I've heard nothing to contradict that. The American side seems completely brainwashed. But he doesn't really know what they all think. He's paid, first by the White House to rally all the families behind the official Libya line, and now to represent the united families as 100% in line with the previous alignment.

Frank Duggan was put up for election and elected to lead this sacrosanct group, to harness their emotional outrage and embody them to the point where the Daily Fail calls HIM "families of the 270 Lockerbie victims". This happened when? Some time in 2008, don't have the date. Check it out relative to Megrahi's impending release. I'd wager he was sent down to replace Kara Weipz to circle the wagons more effectively.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 11th July 2010 at 10:33 PM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2010, 10:38 PM   #206
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Dedicated thread, and I started it, so "bam" here's the spot.

I have a question, which I'll maybe find reading the thread later anyway-but WHO was responsible for the relevant "three-months" assessment? Everyone in the United States- EVERYONE (it seems) - says it was Dr.Sikora's call and nothing else that produced this. Amb. Sheinwald says it was a panel of people besides Sikora. Can anyone give me an awesome explanation to share over here, and save me some time? Is one side right, wrong, both a little wrong, what?

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 12th July 2010 at 12:15 AM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 12:41 AM   #207
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
He was looked at by the SPS medical people and they passed the info to the relevant people. The decision was based on that. The other guys inspections were not taken into account.
Do you have a citation handy for that?

Originally Posted by LibraryLady View Post
Mod InfoI moved this to the non-USA forum, as it is a Scottish subject. Or a middle Eastern subject. But not a USA subject.
Posted By:LibraryLady
Word up. Alive after X months and political interests goes here. The release decision and prognosis behind it is I think at the heart of the whole new wave of American anger. Sorry for picking the wrong spot at first. I get confused sometimes.
Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
eh????
the target of the bomb was a US plane.....is it a scottish subject because the wreckage landed in scotland??
See above. The American indignation and brainwashing angle would best be captured by a thread better formulated around just that. If anyone else beats me to it, I'm not going to jump on starting that one.

Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
As far as this subject goes, I am disturbed to hear the case isn't as solid as one is lead to believe. Though I will quickly point out the equally disturbing feeling of some, when the thread was new, that there was Something Noble in letting the "guilty" guy go home, assuming true guilt.
Dude, that's the coolest comment I've yet gotten [ed - seen - Rolfe scored it]. Can't speak for Rolfe or anyone else, but I aim to disturb. On the rest, I can see both sides of the compassion debate. If I felt there was even a 50% chance he were actually guilty on inspection - which means there is a darn good case - I'd have a hard time getting very riled up. In this case, I'm having a hard time scraping up a generous single digit possibility. It's worth further study.

cont'd...

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 12th July 2010 at 02:18 AM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 01:18 AM   #208
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think Sikora was just shrugging with a sort of "all bets are off" remark. Word from Libya is that Megrahi is off all active treatment and on a morphine drip. You don't linger very long in that condition.

Rolfe.
MSNBC's fast-talking smart British guy disagrees.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38084497/
Quote:
doctors say he's no longer getting chemotherapy and he could live with his cancer - his prostate cancer - for another ten years. ... the bomber's father says he's hoping for complete recovery in fact...
Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
why isn't Al-Megrahi dead yet?
Mass murderer Abdel Baset Al-Megrahi...
And other evidence of a lack of knowledge and of having been emotionally manipulated by the corporate media. Fail. You've had this explained since, but I can add that the Best answer for the bolded question was provided bySaif al-Gaddafi (paraphrased): "Ask God."

Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
Even the trolling on this has reached a new low.
Believe it or not, he's representing the view held by pretty much the whole American media establishment. At the link above, MSNBC, the subtext was that Megrahi's whole sickness is faked. Because Sikora said something, mostly.

ETA: Rolfe, your post#184 seems to be at least part of what I'm looking for. Thanks.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 12th July 2010 at 01:24 AM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:12 AM   #209
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
MSNBC's fast-talking smart British guy disagrees.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38084497/

I can't watch that at work. The accompanying article is just another run through the usual stuff.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Believe it or not, he's representing the view held by pretty much the whole American media establishment. At the link above, MSNBC, the subtext was that Megrahi's whole sickness is faked. Because Sikora said something, mostly.

Well, that's just ridiculous. You can't fake something like that, right in the middle of the NHS, where there are dozens of people involved with a patient, and sharing records and results of investigations and so on. It's a CT on a par with the 9/11 no-planers.

What may have happened is that the most pessimistic prognosis possible was latched on to by a convergence of interests who all had good reason to want Megrahi on the next plane home. Even excluding the consideration that the guy probably didn't do it in the first place, I can't see what all the fuss is about. Could I repeat what I said in a different thread?

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Why does it matter? If Americans are cross because they think it was all a stitch-up in relation to that BP oil deal (which it wasn't), well, what's the problem? Gadaffi seems to be everybody's new best friend. If the official story is true and Megrahi planted that bomb, he did it because Gadaffi told him to. But somehow it's OK to lionise Gadaffi these days? America is as keen on oil deals as anyone else. America wanted this all sorted out (Megrahi out of the way and Libya in a friendly place) as much as anyone. The rest is just political point-scoring.

The reason it isn't about the oil deal, or not directly, is that the body which had the authority to approve the release couldn't care less about oil deals. In fact, just knowing that the Westminster government wanted Megrahi released because of an oil deal was enough to make them resolve to keep him banged up. However, they also wanted him on the next plane home, so they saved face by refusing to do what Westminster wanted (the prisoner transfer) and went the compassionate release route instead.

Given that anyone who had any influence at all on events wanted Megrahi out of that prison, just who paid whom to provide an agreeable medical report hardly matters. [....]

So, the doctors were split about the prognosis. What would you have done? The guy has cancer. If you decide August is too early, and you're right, you'll only have to go through all this again in a couple of months. And if you still think it's too soon, a couple of months after that, and so on until you finally do release him. Why not just cut to the chase? The more so because if the short prognosis is correct, you could find yourself in the embarrassing position of Megrahi dying in a Scottish jail. This would not be a good thing for UK-Middle East relations, we really don't want that to happen.

So he goes home, and is given another round of chemotherapy, and lives a few months longer than the accepted prognosis.

What's all the fuss about?

There's a lot of serious hypocrisy going on here. The US commentators (up to and including Obama) because they completely fail to acknowledge that it was in the interests of America just as much as anyone else to release Megrahi. The USA wants Gadaffi friendly and on-side, because of all that oil, just as much as anyone else, and Megrahi in jail was an obstacle to that. If you believe Libya blew up Pan Am 103, then it was Gadaffi who was the prime mover anyway, and it's a bit peculiar to be demanding Megrahi's head on a platter while sucking up to Gadaffi. So wht not go the whole hog?

The UK Labour, Conservative and Liberal parties are all busy lambasting the SNP over Megrahi's release, because it suits them. They're political opponents, of course they're going to take any chance they can get to put the boot in. This is hypocritical, because none of them wanted Megrahi to stay in jail either, for much the same reasons. We need Gadaffi as a friendly ally, and this is most certainly not going to be facilitated by keeping Megrahi in jail. And if they can be best pals with the guy they believe masterminded the Lockerbie bombing, then what's the big problem about releasing a relatively junior operative?

And finally, the whole bloody boiling of them, headed up by the SNP, is being massively hypocritical about the primary reason for the release happening when it did. It was the optimum moment to use the prospect of release to persuade Megrahi to abandon his on-going appeal. That appeal had been dragging on for years, with astonishing government back-flips to try to keep certain material from the defence lawyers.

It was a huge no-no for two reasons. One is that it was almost certain to have been successful, because Tony Gauci's evidence had been fatally undermined, and without that evidence there was simply nowhere near enough left to sustain Megrahi's conviction. So they were going to have to release him, and find themselves in the embarrassing position of not having solved the biggest mass murder in Scottish history, and have to start all over again looking for the culprit. Oops.

The undermining of Tony Gauci's evidence was bad enough, in that part of that undermining was the revelation that he and his brother had been paid $3 million by the CIA for their evidence, and are now living in luxury in Australia on the proceeds. However the other bit which is a lot more hazy is that there were further grounds for appeal that weren't to do with the Gaucis, and in some way involved revelations the UK and US governments did not want in the public domain. Would it have been possible to get right through the appeal while keeping this secret? Well, they were trying, but far better to abandon the appeal, given the chance.

Megrahi was pressurised while in jail to give up the appeal, being told that it would help his chances of getting home. So he did that, although previously, before his illness, he had insisted he preferred to stay in jail to fight to clear his name. Now we have Nicola Sturgeon, deputy First Minister, insisting that he gave up the appeal voluntarily, and that he really didn't have to do that. This is a downright lie, frankly.

So it's all quite complex really, but the bottom line is that it was in the US interest as much as the UK interest to keep Gadaffi sweet and let his human sacrifice go. Recognise political point-scoring when you see it, people!

Finally, so Megrahi's dad hopes he'll make a full recovery. Yeah right. You know how? Alternative medicine, that's how. Apparently they're trying some woo-woo snake oil, now the doctors have said there's no more conventional medicine can do.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:39 AM   #210
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
Mass murderer Abdel Baset Al-Megrahi, who did just eight years of his life sentence after he was convicted of killing 270 people, was released last year on the dubious grounds that he had just three months to live. He returned to Libya to receive a hero's welcome, and now almost a year later he's living in luxury. What's even more maddening is that apparently, the man is still breathing.

It turns out the diagnosis was based on the opinion of just one doctor who now says that he could live as long as 10 years.

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/...bie-bombe.html
I notice you didn't have much to say, here or there, to support the contents of this article. At the moment, one comment only:
Quote:
1 Comment

Caustic Logic
July 12, 2010 5:31 AM
Why Isn't Dying Lockerbie Bomber Dead Yet?

His cancer hasn't just yet killed him. Maybe he's driven, like Harrison Ford's characters often are, to clear his name. I think it was Saif that suggested taking that question to God.

Now, why was Sikora's prognosis wrong?I think he's explained that. Why does his flippant *maybe 10 or 20 year* quotes have any weight or meaning? Blasted if I know.

Why do some media outlets only run stories like this, while ignoring others about, for example, Megrahi's mysteriously squashed appeal (Google"appalling choice" and/or "emotional blackmail + Megrahi), or the $3 million handed to the Gauci brothers after they helped land the Lybian, or the radio manual cover PK/689 made "a bit tatty around the edges" by a Semtex blast, but torn to shreds by "forensic tests?" Or the onetime suspect covered for the the Libyans story line, reportedly holed up comfortably in Virginia at the moment? Or about the amazing self-restraint the Libyans showed in never getting us back for that Airbus the Vincennes shot down?
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/...#ixzz0tSWhxNEH

Gaddurbitz1!!1 Libyans, and there it is for the world to see...


ETA:And thanks, Rolfe. You should check out that video when you can. It's ever so annoying.

ETA again:
http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/...ol-sikora.html

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 12th July 2010 at 02:43 AM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:50 AM   #211
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Thanks for bringing that video here. I thought the worst thing he said was that there was unamymity anong all the U.S family members about Megrahi's guilt. I don't mind that he can't cite the number of families he represents, but that he's able to smugly say all those unknown number of people believe what he does is just slimy as all hell.

True, I've heard nothing to contradict that. The American side seems completely brainwashed. But he doesn't really know what they all think. He's paid, first by the White House to rally all the families behind the official Libya line, and now to represent the united families as 100% in line with the previous alignment.

Who knows? There are a lot of US families. Most of them probably want to move on now - it's been over twenty years, after all. One has to remember that these people are all now millionnaires as a result of the huge sums in compensation paid out first by Pan Am when they lost the civil action for liability, and secondly by Gadaffi when he obliquely accepted responsibility and paid up in order to put an end to the sanctions and allow Libya to rejoin the international community.

All that money was predicated on the version of the story where Megrahi put the bomb on the plane at the behest of Gadaffi being true. There's no question of anyone asking for it back if Megrahi's conviction were to be quashed, but I think the people involved might find it a tad embarrassing. So, I can understand it if a lot of the relatives are now just keeping out of it, getting on with their well-heeled lives, and letting Frank Duggan say what he likes.

Yes, Frank Duggan was the US government place-man within the US families group, and his nice little sinecure depends on him continuing to insist that Megrahi is guilty. He's not very good at it though. I could make a better case for Megrahi having done it than he can! (And I'd still get shredded by anyone with a real grasp of the evidence, but that's the way it goes.)

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Frank Duggan was put up for election and elected to lead this sacrosanct group, to harness their emotional outrage and embody them to the point where the Daily Fail calls HIM "families of the 270 Lockerbie victims". This happened when? Some time in 2008, don't have the date. Check it out relative to Megrahi's impending release. I'd wager he was sent down to replace Kara Weipz to circle the wagons more effectively.

If Jim Swire, Martin Cadman and Pamela Dix were aware of the Daily Mail saying that, they'd go through the roof. Oh, and Father Keegans as well, who was within about 50 feet of being a Lockerbie victim.

You may think his insistence on the unanimity of the relatives is the worst thing he said - for me it's the appalling ignorance of the specifics of the evidence. To say that Megrahi lied under oath when he didn't even take the witness stand, to say that each of Gauci's statements was given to a different jurisdiction because of the number of different nationalities involved in the disaster - it's unbelievable, from someone who is being paid to know about this.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
Dude, that's the coolest comment I've yet gotten. Can'ts peak for Rolfe or anyone else, but I aim to disturb. On the rest, I can see both sides of the compassion debate. If I felt there was even a 50% chance he were actually guilty on inspection - which means there is a darn good case - I'd have a hard time getting very riled up. In this case, I'm having a hard time scraping up a generous single digit possibility. It's worth further study.

The day has not yet come when I would regard Beerina as cool. He's not known for taking on board arguments contrary to his prevailing viewpoint. I suppose for him even to acknowledge the possibility that Megrahi is innocent, after having steadfastly ignored posts to that effect for close on a year, is quite an advance.

There's no question that Megrahi should never have been convicted. The conviction couldn't possibly have stood without Gauci's evidence, and Gauci's evidence wasn't worth a hill of beans. He did sell the clothes that were packed round the bomb in the suitcase, apparently, but who he sold them to is anyone's guess. His eventual, tentative, identification of Megrahi as "looking a little bit exactly like" the purchaser (no more!) was the result of years of training and suggestion and leading the witness, aided by heavy hints of eye-popping amounts of money to come if Megrahi were to be convicted.

The question is, if you take away Gauci's evidence, is what's left sufficient to suggest that Megrahi was guilty anyway, even if it's not enough to stand up in court? I would say not. There are a number of weird coincidences surrounding this case, and the coincidence which might be taken to suggest he put the bomb on the plane is thistledown compared to the weight of evidence that he really couldn't have done it and someobody else did.

This isn't something many people (especially in the USA) want to confront. It's just too embarrassing, over 20 years down the line, to confront the fact that we don't know who carried out that atrocity, and we certainly didn't manage to bring them to justice.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 12th July 2010 at 03:07 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:52 AM   #212
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic
Or about the amazing self-restraint the Libyans showed in never getting us back for that Airbus the Vincennes shot down?

Iranians, me old sport, Iranians....

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 12:36 PM   #213
Alt+F4
diabolical globalist
 
Alt+F4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,997
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
One has to remember that these people are all now millionnaires as a result of the huge sums in compensation paid out first by Pan Am when they lost the civil action for liability, and secondly by Gadaffi...
And I can GUARANTEE you that every, single one of these people would give up every dollar/euro/pound they got if they could just have back 15 minutes with the person they lost.

Money has nothing to do with this.
__________________
"My folks touched a lot of kids." - Jerry Sandusky
Alt+F4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 01:31 PM   #214
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
And I can GUARANTEE you that every, single one of these people would give up every dollar/euro/pound they got if they could just have back 15 minutes with the person they lost.

Money has nothing to do with this.
You make it sound like Rolfe was suggesting the families actually sold their loved ones across the river Styx to get that money. I think the facts of many million payouts is relevant in why American families haven't spoken up. It can't be the whole picture,as British relatives I think got their share of Libya's money as well.

And that 15 minutes things is not an option anyway, so... they'll probably be keeping it and the complexity that would arise if they ever had to admit Libya wasn'tat fault after all. Can you see how that might be awkward at least?
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 01:35 PM   #215
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
This is how behind I am. It took me an hour of stumbling around to find Fraser's name, which rings me back to something I remember now from last year.

The Times, 28 August
It emerged that the prognosis that Abdel Baset Ali al-Megrahi had a life expectancy of only three months or less was supported by an unnamed doctor who had no expertise in terminal prostate cancer. The final report on al-Megrahi's condition, which went to Kenny MacAskill, the Justice Secretary, was drawn up by Dr Andrew Fraser, director of health and care with the Scotttish Prison Service.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6812427.ece

Guardian, 20 November
At the time of his release MacAskill was at pains to say the three-month lifespan was an estimate. But he relied entirely on a report by Dr Andrew Fraser, the head of medical services for the Scottish prison service, stating that Megrahi's health had declined significantly in the weeks before his release. "The clinical assessment therefore is that a three-month prognosis is now a reasonable estimate for this patient," Fraser sai
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...ckerbie-bomber

Telegraph, 4 July
The Scottish government insists Kenny MacAskill, the justice minister who took the final decision to release Megrahi, based his ruling on a medical report by Dr Andrew Fraser, director of health and care at the Scottish Prison Service (SPS).
A spokesman said Professor Sikora’s advice to Libya “had no part to play in considerations on the Megrahi case”.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-or-more.html

So...who's been telling the American mediathat Dr. Sikora's Libyan-paid 3 months prognosis that was responsible? Who has created a situation where one comment I saw described this as 'letting one terrorist diagnose another?'
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:02 PM   #216
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
So...who's been telling the American mediathat Dr. Sikora's Libyan-paid 3 months prognosis that was responsible? Who has created a situation where one comment I saw described this as 'letting one terrorist diagnose another?'
I don't think they need any encouragement over there to make crap up.
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:08 PM   #217
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
And I can GUARANTEE you that every, single one of these people would give up every dollar/euro/pound they got if they could just have back 15 minutes with the person they lost.

Money has nothing to do with this.

I imagine that's true for the majority of the relatives - especially those who lost members of their nuclear families, and I'm thinking particularly of the parents of the Syracuse students. There are also, probably, a number of people who lost more distant relatives - quite a few entire nuclear families were wiped out on that plane, as parents and children were travelling togather. It's not a homogenous group.

Just to put it into perspective. In the early 1990s, each family got about £2 million from a civil action for damages against Pan Am. In 2003 Libya agreed to pay a total of £1.7 billion to the relatives. I think the £1 billion handed over in 2008 was the final installment of that. Each family is said to have received about £6 million in total from Gadaffi. (That's pounds sterling, with a variety of exchange rates to the dollar I imagine - the payouts happened over a long period.)

I imagine there are very few families who would prefer the money to their lost loved one. It's also questionable whether money contributes at all to coming to terms with that sort of grief. Indeed, the money could be actively destructive - the Pan An compensation alone destroyed David and Steven Flannigan, who didn't even live long enough to benefit from Gadaffi's contribution. Nevertheless it exists, and platitudes about preferring poverty with one's son or daughter alive don't change that, however true.

How different is it, to lose a son or daughter to a terrorist attack, or a drunk driver, or an armed robber, or a climbing accident? I don't know. But unlike the latter categories, the Lockerbie relatives are now multi-millionaires. (Indeed, they were already multi-millionaires before Gadaffi paid out a penny.)

So if we see a paid spokesman with no idea at all about the specifics of the evidence shouting down anyone who points out that the conviction was clearly unsafe and likely to have been overturned on appeal, I think it's relevant to remind ourself of the full circumstances. The families have been wealthy for nearly 20 years, and getting wealthier as further installments are paid. It doesn't go away just because thinking about it is uncomfortable.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 12th July 2010 at 02:50 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:20 PM   #218
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
You make it sound like Rolfe was suggesting the families actually sold their loved ones across the river Styx to get that money. I think the facts of many million payouts is relevant in why American families haven't spoken up. It can't be the whole picture,as British relatives I think got their share of Libya's money as well.

They're a very disparate group. It's common knowledge that some of the families refused to touch a penny, either because they saw it as tainted blood money, or because they didn't believe the Official Version of what happened. Who these people are is not known, though. I imagine it would be a very difficult offer to refuse unless you were already independently wealthy.

Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
And that 15 minutes things is not an option anyway, so... they'll probably be keeping it and the complexity that would arise if they ever had to admit Libya wasn'tat fault after all. Can you see how that might be awkward at least?

I don't think there was ever any question of the relatives having to give up any compensation even if Megrahi's appeal had been successful. But neither would the entire gross GDPs of Libya, Iran and the USA get them even 15 seconds with their lost loved one, never mind 15 minutes, so that's a pretty irrelevant comment.

The money exists. The relatives are wealthy. It's a relevant factor when considering how events are unfolding at the moment.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:25 PM   #219
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
This is how behind I am. It took me an hour of stumbling around to find Fraser's name, which rings me back to something I remember now from last year.

So...who's been telling the American mediathat Dr. Sikora's Libyan-paid 3 months prognosis that was responsible? Who has created a situation where one comment I saw described this as 'letting one terrorist diagnose another?'

Sorry, I could probably have found it sooner. I just can't get that aerated about the exact identity of the doctor who provided the acceptable prognosis.

There was quite a bit of annoyance at the time that more specialist doctors apparently hadn't been consulted, but this wasn't about Karol Sikora, it was about Andrew Fraser being "the single doctor" whose opinion was relied on. A doctor who was part of the establishment, employed by the prison service.

Karol Sikora was on TV, sounding impressive, but he was only the consultant retained by Libya, and nobody was under any obligation to listen to him. I think it was more of an ego-trip than anything.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 12th July 2010 at 02:44 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 02:46 PM   #220
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
I don't think they need any encouragement over there to make crap up.

Well, true, but who cares? Nothing's going to change no matter how much they foam at the mouth.

I'd prefer to see them getting aerated about how come anyone could be convicted of murder on that evidence, but that ain't gonna happen, obviously.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2010, 04:10 PM   #221
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Sorry, I could probably have found it sooner. I just can't get that aerated about the exact identity of the doctor who provided the acceptable prognosis.

There was quite a bit of annoyance at the time that more specialist doctors apparently hadn't been consulted, but this wasn't about Karol Sikora, it was about Andrew Fraser being "the single doctor" whose opinion was relied on. A doctor who was part of the establishment, employed by the prison service.

Karol Sikora was on TV, sounding impressive, but he was only the consultant retained by Libya, and nobody was under any obligation to listen to him. I think it was more of an ego-trip than anything.

Rolfe.
I think I mostly get it now. The confusion around this is noteworthy. Somehow much or most of the public has been left confused. "The one doctor" became Sikora. Hell, I wrote up half an article based on that premise, just from not knowing and being bombarded with so many repetitions of that presumption. This will need to be explained over here.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 03:45 AM   #222
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
On a closer look, Rolfe, it seems the "one doctor" cited by Simpson, "one anonymous source" cited by Aitken, etc. is other than the non-anonymous Dr. Fraser. One source says all four docs on the panel said he wasn't sick enough to go home, but Fraser overrode them all. Most sources agree one doctor dissented. One report in the Scotsman says Sikora sided with the majority against saying three months. That'sprobablyan error. The first link, Daily Record, has this:
Quote:
On August 20, the day before MacAskill announced Megrahi's release, a cancer specialist asked by Libya to examine the bomber told the minister to make an "urgent" decision.
Professor Karol Sikora said: "We believe he has only a very short period of time to live."
Sikora said he visited Megrahi in Greenock jail on July 28, along with Professor Ibrahim Sheriff from the Tripoli medical centre and Dr Abdulrahman Swessi, Libya's consul-general in Scotland.
The rest suggest the anonymous one of four that Fraser app. cited was in fact Sikora. So I don't have to correct everyone after all.

FWIW The Times provides a short redacted report in PDF

None of this is the biggest point, but I was annoyed at how little I knew. Better now.

Last edited by Caustic Logic; 13th July 2010 at 04:16 AM.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 04:42 AM   #223
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Also, these knucklehead Senators are now demanding Sec. Clinton pressures someone or other to make Megrahi go back to jail until he's dead.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2010...t_almegr.html#

Quote:
AFTER SCOTTISH GOVERNMENT REFUSES TO REINVESTIGATE EARLY RELEASE OF LOCKERBIE BOMBER:

SCHUMER, MENENDEZ CALL ON STATE DEPARTMENT TO PRESSURE LONDON TO RETURN LOCKERBIE BOMBER TO PRISON; AL-MEGRAHI WAS GIVEN 'THREE MONTHS TO LIVE' - REPORTS SAY TERRORIST COULD LIVE ANOTHER TEN
My response:
http://lockerbiedivide.blogspot.com/...egrahi-to.html
Quote:
Quote:
"Schumer and Menendez noted the release of al-Megrahi was predicated on his only have [sic] three months to live, yet the doctor who examined him now suggests the bomber of Pan Am flight 103 may well live for another ten years."
He said there was "always a chance" of this, but it is "unusual" and, by extension, highly unlikely. Megrahi has cancer of the pelvis now too, among other things, and no medicine but a morphine drip. That's a real-world sign of the end, compared to words from an apparent charlatan. The Senators have chosen, and have set about making it noisy.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 10:02 AM   #224
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
It's all hot air. NOBODY is going to piss off Gadaffi by demanding Megrahi's extradition. What are they going to do? Send in gunboats to get him? Because make no mistake about it, that's what they'd have to do.

They're just making noises in the hope of showing the voters how tough they are. Too bad nobody's listening. I could happily throttle Karol Sikora though. It's obvious that the "ten years" was a throwaway remark, along the lines of, well, Stephen Hawking has lived more than 40 years beyond his prognosis so anything's possible. But certain people with axes to grind have latched on to it. Which was more or less predictable. Has the man NO sense? (Answer, apparently not.)

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 13th July 2010 at 10:04 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 12:11 PM   #225
Thunder
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,918
Lockerbie bomber freed due to pressure from BP?????

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...ious-terrorist

Oh man...if this is true...I am totally boycotting BP.

What a disgusting public relations problem they have.

"Large oil company makes hundreds of oil rig errors and violations, dumps 100 million gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico, and convinces the British government to release a terrorist killer in order to secure an oil contract."
Thunder is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 12:18 PM   #226
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Addressed here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=176962
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 12:24 PM   #227
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's all hot air. NOBODY is going to piss off Gadaffi by demanding Megrahi's extradition. What are they going to do? Send in gunboats to get him? Because make no mistake about it, that's what they'd have to do.
Well the last british gunboat left service in 1926 and aparently wasn't in a very good condition by that point. On the other hand this is Gadaffi we are talking about so a couple of machine guns strapped onto a power boat would probably do the trick.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 12:49 PM   #228
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Well, it was the gung-ho Yanks I was talking about. Nobody in Blighty is going to fetch him, that's for sure.

They could have sent the Vincennes if it had still been in commission....

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 12:57 PM   #229
manxman
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 365
Your posts are very informative rolfe.

I wonder what exactly the american relatives believed their 3 million in tax payers money was paid to the 2 brothers now living in australia was for.

How can anyones testimony be taken seriously when they are being paid 2 million to give it.
manxman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 03:21 PM   #230
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
It's all very murky. The first witness who was bribed to give evidence against both Megrahi and Fhimah was a guy called Majid Giaka. He was a Libyan garage mechanic who fancied a cushy life as a CIA asset and informer. The trouble was, he didn't have a lot of useful information to give for the $1500 a month (plus benefits in kind) he was being paid by the Americans.

At first, when he was pushed for intelligence relating to Lockerbie, he had nothing to say, but later, after the CIA had threatened to dump him without a penny, he suddenly "remembered" that he'd seen both suspects making the bomb and putting it on the plane. He was the star witness who would deliver the conviction.

However, during the trial, the defence was successful in having the unedited versions of a lot of CIA telexes admitted in evidence, and once the blacked-out parts were visible it was clear the US authorities had knowingly put forward a witness who was making stuff up for money. The judges disallowed his testimony, but somehow managed to convict anyway. For no reason I can see, nobody criticised the US input for this, or harboured any suspicions that perhaps other parts of the evidence had been a bit sexed-up as well.

Gauci's evidence was odd, because while it seems fairly clear he really did sell the clothes that were in the bomb bag, the day he seemed most likely to have made that sale was a day Megrahi wasn't in Malta. In addition, his original description of the man didn't describe Megrahi - the face might have been a reasonable fit for him (or for about a squillion other people), but the age, height and build were way out. This from a man who was well used to judging people by what size clothes would fit them.

The prosecution appear to have tortured the evidence to breaking point to make Gauci's description fit a day when Megrahi was in the town, and to get him to pick out Megrahi as the purchaser, in photo-lineups. By the time he finally saw Megrahi in the flesh, half the population of the western world could probably have picked him out, so widespread had been the publicity, but the best Gauci could manage was, “Not exactly the man I saw in the shop. Ten years ago I saw him, but the man who look a little bit like exactly is the number 5.”

The judges bought it. They even said they were impressed by his uncertainty, as it showed he was genuinely trying to remember! The appeal judges said, the court was entitled to take that view, appeal dismissed.

Even during the investigation, the Scottish police were offering Tony Gauci holidays in Scotland and other inducements to keep him on-side. His brother Paul, initially hostile to the investigation, began to get very interested in a reward. There have been a lot of weasel words about nobody having been promised any money before the trial, but it's now common knowledge Tony got $2 million and Paul $1 million. I thought Paul (who didn't give evidence) had been rewarded for his part in establishing the day of the purchase, but in fact he gave a clear statement at one stage (not presented to the court) that the date was the day Megrahi wasn't there.

I'm not sure where to look for the link now, but the rationale for paying Paul was given as reward for his role in keeping Tony (who was a bit simple) up to scratch. In fact Paul was quite clearly coaching Tony to provide the evidence the police wanted. I can't remember exactly where this information originated, but there's no dispute the pair of them recently moved to Australia and have a very luxurious lifestyle.

I don't think the US relatives have a clue about any of this. They're getting their information from Duggan, who seems simply to be making up whatever he thinks will keep the level of outrage in the USA at satisfyingly high levels. The money might even have come out of the $2.7 billion Gadaffi paid out in order for Libya to be allowed to rejoin the civilised world. But in any case, it's peanuts compared to the budget the CIA has for running informers and paying out for information received.

I'm 100% sure that conviction should never have been brought, on the basis of "beyond reasonable doubt". Anyone who wants to understand this should read the judgements. I'm 99.99% sure the appeal that was abandoned would have succeeded, in the light of the new evidence that was available (including that Gauci was bribed). I'm about 95% sure Megrahi didn't do it - the 5% because I don't know who did, and not knowing that, it's hard to dismiss any possibility out of hand.

I just re-watched the 2008 BBC documentary on this - The Conspiracy Files. This programme has a format where it builds up a conspiracy, then shows how it's all complete nonsense. Except it doesn't pan out that way in this episode. The half is not told in that programme, as far as the dodginess of some of the evidence is concerned (well, they only had an hour!), but in the end they conclude that the appeal hearings will reveal the real truth.

The appeal Megrahi had to abandon in order to be allowed to return home to die. The appeal that would probably have been concluded by now, if he'd stayed in jail in Scotland. But he was released 11 months ago, being told he only had 3 months to live, when the date for the appeal coming back to court was 3 months from the date of his release.

Frankly, the scandal here is that a dying man was told he wouldn't live to see his appeal come to court, but if he agreed to abandon the appeal he could go home to spend his last three months with his family. He's on record as saying he desperately wanted to clear his name, but given that he was terminally ill he couldn't take any more and was desperate to get home.

The timing of the release was awfully convenient for the authorities who had shown every indication of not wanting that appeal to happen, who were also the authorities who had the power to grant the compassionate release. If people are wondering why it seems it might have been a bit premature, this is the aspect that might be considered.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 13th July 2010 at 03:44 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 03:40 PM   #231
manxman
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 365
Thanks again.

I only live in the isle of man so it wasn't far away where the plane came down really.

I heard most of what you say years ago, but you provide a fuller more detailed version, and i can tell its factually correct, as you are not being bombarded with juvenile posts.

Very interesting tho, but most americans will never buy it that the Good ol Guys of the CIA were behind setting him up, rather than direct confrontation with Iran at the time.
Clearly revenge on Irans part, but still an act of war, if what you say is/turns out to be absolutely true, they are brainwashed with the patriotism gig, and their government doesn't lie to them, so they will never buy it.

eta
most.

Last edited by manxman; 13th July 2010 at 03:48 PM.
manxman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 03:48 PM   #232
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Well, in a way, who cares? I live about 50 miles from where the plane went down. Nobody is talking about this on a daily basis. A pretty high proportion of people don't think Megrahi did it anyway, so aren't inclined to foaming outrage about it all.

It doesn't matter what the Americans think. Nobody is going to Libya to re-arrest Megrahi. A bunch of loud-mouth Yank politicos spouting off a lot of nonsense to make themselves look tough to the voters doesn't even register in Scotland.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 04:03 PM   #233
manxman
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 365
Aye.

Good stuff rolfe.

Proper interesting read this thread turned out to be.

Be lucky.
manxman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 04:50 PM   #234
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
The threads in CT where we're trying to figure out what the hell did happen are more interesting really, though long-winded as we brainstorm ideas that don't really gel, and completely ignore good points for six months before getting back to them.... And far too few people taking an interest, too, even though there's lots of time to dedicate to debunking "9/11 was an inside job" or "the moon landings were faked" and similar fish-in-a-barrel arguments.

I've got my brain round the actualite of much of the evidence now (there's a lot out there that's just plain wrong, from misreporting over the years), with the notable exception of the Frankfurt baggage records part, which is just surreal. What I can't decide is, did the investigators just see the physical evidence they had, decide that there were enough coincidences that could be milked to make a case for Megrahi having done it, then bribe a couple of people to make sure of a conviction, or was some of the actual physical evidence fiddled with?

I don't know, but there are a few serious pointers to the latter, which is a whole other can of worms.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 07:38 PM   #235
Damien Evans
Up The Irons
Tagger
 
Damien Evans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 33,780
Originally Posted by Thunder View Post
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...ious-terrorist

Oh man...if this is true...I am totally boycotting BP.

What a disgusting public relations problem they have.

"Large oil company makes hundreds of oil rig errors and violations, dumps 100 million gallons of oil into the Gulf of Mexico, and convinces the British government to release a terrorist killer in order to secure an oil contract."
Meghari didn't kill anyone.


Well, not those particular anyones, at any rate.
__________________
i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.
Damien Evans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2010, 08:49 PM   #236
Policenaut
Infidel Defiler
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,191
I really didn't know much about this case when he was released but from participating in various threads at the time I came to the conclusion that rolfe has stated. As far as I have seen hardly anyone in the US (and just about no one in the media here) knows any details about the case except that Megrahi was convicted so that means he's guilty. There haven't been any programs like that one on the BBC that really looks into the whole story. No one really thinks there is a conspiracy here except about the recent revelations such as Megrahi living longer than expected and that BP got him released. The government hasn't brainwashed anyone. People seemed to accept the verdict and there was no further discussion. He was found guilty so he's a mass murdering terrorist. Period. That's how he's referred to in most news stories. I don't think people are aware of all the shenanigans involved in the prosecution. If anything it's the fault of the US media which never dug in and did an extensive investigation of the whole saga.
Policenaut is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2010, 12:14 AM   #237
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by manxman View Post
Thanks again.

Very interesting tho, but most americans will never buy it that the Good ol Guys of the CIA were behind setting him up, rather than direct confrontation with Iran at the time.
Clearly revenge on Irans part, but still an act of war, if what you say is/turns out to be absolutely true, they are brainwashed with the patriotism gig, and their government doesn't lie to them, so they will never buy it.

eta
most.
That's too true. I live over here on the big island. Fightin from the inside. It's a bricks wall. Originally they had an attack brought on by their own military's recklessness in the Persian Gulf, an embarrassing airport security failure at Heathrow, supposed assets implicated in the crime, a nation as large as Iran behind it, with escalation of the usual sort being - erm, problematic.

What makes America great is innovation and enterprise. Invent something new, bold audacious. A descendent of Italian immigrants (with some history re: lLibya I hear) named Vincent cannistraro decided swiftly that the embarrassing case COULD be re-wired up as the ultimo boom box to blast Libyan guilt for propaganda and leverage purposes.

By now, they've got the fact that they made that decision, carried it out, and have actually bluffed it through til the present. NO FRIGGIN WAY can that be allowed to come to light, says the center, and lo and behold it does not.

Hope that answered your - wait,you didn't ask a question.

Originally Posted by Policenaut View Post
I really didn't know much about this case when he was released but from participating in various threads at the time I came to the conclusion that rolfe has stated. As far as I have seen hardly anyone in the US (and just about no one in the media here) knows any details about the case except that Megrahi was convicted so that means he's guilty.
That's just howwe are here, suckers for legal rulings. If a judge says O.J. is innocent, by golly, America celebrates the clearing of a sports legend. It's in our red ol' blood.

Quote:
There haven't been any programs like that one on the BBC that really looks into the whole story. No one really thinks there is a conspiracy here except about the recent revelations such as Megrahi living longer than expected and that BP got him released.
To be fair, This one is quite decent all around, and hits hard on a good spot - the plausibility of that timer fragment.

Quote:
The government hasn't brainwashed anyone. People seemed to accept the verdict and there was no further discussion. He was found guilty so he's a mass murdering terrorist. Period. That's how he's referred to in most news stories. I don't think people are aware of all the shenanigans involved in the prosecution. If anything it's the fault of the US media which never dug in and did an extensive investigation of the whole saga.
They say it's 'corporate control," and that sounds a little woo-ish, but whatever it is,the media feeds our brains and we're a malnourished lot somehow.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2010, 01:42 AM   #238
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Meghari didn't kill anyone.

Well, not those particular anyones, at any rate.

I hope the mods can do a merge on this, because the idea of starting this extremely complex discussion again from the beginning in doing my head in.

Any connection between BP and Megrahi's release is tenuous and at arm's length. The release is a CT all of its own, for completely different reasons. The principal one being that he was pressurised to withdraw his appeal against the conviction in order to be granted release - an appeal which would probably have been concluded by now if he'd stayed in jail and let it go forward. An appeal he'd almost certainly have won, to the huge embarrassment of everybody else concerned.

The fact that the Westminster government was fairly keen on him being released because they'd made some promises they couldn't actually deliver on to that effect while negotiating an oil deal relating to BP in 2007 just facilitated the process.

And yes, he was Libyan security officer. Who knows what he did. He says he didn't kill anyone, that he was involved in sanctions-running - acquiring aviation parts for LAA against the sanctions that were in force against Libya at that time. What he almost certainly didn't do was put the bomb on the plane that blew up over Lockerbie.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2010, 02:49 AM   #239
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
I don't think this current furore linking the Lockerbie affair to BP is worth wasting electrons on. It's been whipped up out of almost nothing, in the wake of the gulf oil leak. Like most baseless publicity-mongering, it's likely to be a nine-day wonder that fizzles out when the world moves on.

This morning the radio news in Scotland reported that al-Megrahi is off all chemotherapy and is only receiving palliative care. This usually describes a cancer patient in the terminal stages. We've heard similar stories before, but not so officially. It could be that this is again Libya manipulating the news to take the heat off, but let's face it, the guy has aggressive metastatic carcinoma of the prostate. This story probably has a relatively short shelf-life.

(Cue the CT that says they announced his death and held a funeral with a substitute corpse to let Megrahi go off and start a new life with a new identity.... you heard it here first, folks!)

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th July 2010, 12:09 PM   #240
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,984
Too busy posting here to read my newspaper!

Megrahi is so ill he could die if he gets a cold

Originally Posted by Lucy Adams
According to the latest bulletin about his condition, all treatment for prostate cancer has stopped and he is now receiving only palliative care.
Doctors are also said to be concerned that he is struggling to come to terms with his prognosis. [....]

Last month Professor Karol Sikora, who examined Megrahi last summer and gave him less than three months to live, said he could last for up 10 years. Sikora was one of three doctors paid for by the Libyan Government to examine Megrahi.
However, his report has never been read by Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, who was pilloried internationally for choosing to grant him compassionate release. MacAskill made the decision based on a report by Dr Andrew Fraser, head of health at the Scottish Prison Service, which had itself been based upon the expert opinions of at least two UK consultants and the prison doctor.
A source said: “We’re told that he could survive beyond August 18, but equally that a cold could finish him off. He is extremely unwell and is now only receiving palliative care.” [....]

Megrahi was granted fresh leave to appeal in June 2007, based on the three-and-a-half-year probe by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission, but the appeal suffered delays and last summer he dropped the case to improve his chances of returning home to Libya.

And the lead editorial. Decision to release Megrahi was correct

Quote:
In fact, MacAskill chose his words very carefully. His statement read: “A three-month prognosis is now a reasonable estimate,” adding the rider: “He may die sooner – he may live longer.” In the event, the latter has prevailed, though news from Tripoli in recent days suggests Megrahi will die soon and is subject only to palliative care.
The fact that he has defied estimates of his limited life expectancy made at the time of his release in no way invalidates the Justice Secretary’s decision. Had Megrahi remained in Greenock Prison, he could not have received the treatment and care that a cancer patient requires. [....]

MacAskill should not feel embarrassed that Megrahi has managed to cling to life for longer than his doctors expected. If he turns out to have been innocent, the decision not to compel him to die in prison and in pain will be deemed just as well as compassionate.

This is the reporting of journalists actually familiar with the evidence and the issues in this case. Lucy Adams has travelled to Tripoli to interview Megrahi.

It's a pity the Channel 4 news item I just watched hadn't done a bit more probing. That was just US senators making baseless accusations, with a couple of actual US Lockerbie relatives as Male and Female Chorus. Though to be fair, some penetrating questions were asked and nothing came back but bluster.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:48 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.