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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Scotland issues

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Old 20th October 2010, 03:33 AM   #81
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I remember reading Fairweather's opinion in a newspaper article. I have no especial reason to doubt him on that, and note very clearly that Megrahi's "injured innocent" position may well be mostly simulated. I accept that there's a big difference in the way we react emotionally to someone who is completely blameless all round being banged up for something they didn't do (take Sally Clark for example), and someone who has other stuff in their past but who simply didn't commit this crime (maybe Barry George, though there's not the slightest reason to believe he ever actually murdered anyone).

However, as I've also pointed out, it's always much much easier to frame someone who already has a history. The Maguire Seven were petty criminals living in a squat. The Birmingham Six had some IRA connections. Barry George was a weirdo stalker with fantasies about the SAS and previous convictions for sexual assault. Even Sally Clark appears to have had a bit of a drink problem. Many, many of the collected cases of miscarriage of justice have involved people with a criminal record or other dodgy past being targeted for framing.

Megrahi was framed because he was boarding a flight at Malta, at the same time as another flight was departing for Frankfurt, which would have connected to PA103. That's about it. There were probably hundreds of people passing through Malta airport, going about their normal business, at that time. Why Megrahi, then? Because he was a Libyan security officer and was travelling under an assumed name. Bingo.

I have absolutely no idea what sort of a person he is or was, or what he may or may not have been guilty of in the past. Unlike Jibril, and Talb, and Khreesat and others, he has no previous convictions and has never been linked in person to any terrorist act. While I accept that Fairweather's assessment of his character may be correct, I also note that we have no evidence at all apart from the fact of his being a JSO officer in the 1980s (which is disputed, but I certainly accept it) to blacken his name. Thus, while acknowledging the possibility that he may be guilty of who knows what else, I put that aside, because there is no evidence, and Fairweather's character assessment, however astute, is not a lot to go on.

Most of what I have seen from people like Frank Duggan and Brian Flynn, to support their assertion that there is "an enormous amount of evidence" that Megrahi carried out the Lockerbie bombing, is in the same category as the evidence Barry George was originally convicted on. Things that might have been relevant if there had also been evidence to connect him to the actual crime, but without that, nothing but tenuous inference and innuendo.

There are much worse things happening in the world than a Libyan being wrongly imprisoned in a Scottish prison for ten years, whatever his past. This isn't about Megrahi as a person, it's about the integrity of the Scottish criminal justice system. If Megrahi could be convicted on that series of leaps of unsupported inference that constitute the Zeist judgement, what might happen to any of us who have the misfortune to find ourselves in front of a Scottish judge? There's a reason Iain McKie is connected to the Justice for Megrahi campaign - his own daughter, a police officer, was framed in a similar way because it was politically expedient.

I feel very sorry for the Lockerbie families, who obviously need some sort of answers on all this. However, convicting someone who by any rational reading of the evidence actually appears to have had an alibi for the crime on that day, just because it's possible to cobble together a wildly implausible case against him, isn't it.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2010, 05:31 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Maybe you missed this little tidbit

from the Scottish Parliament web site where the petition is posted.

Quote:
Signatures are checked for repeat signing and unlikely names. These will be removed.

It will be interesting to see how many signatures are actually relevant following the above procedures.

Didn't miss it at all. I note that at least one "unlikely name" has already been removed, so they might even be doing it as they go. I imagine some entries will disappear, and of course I can't tell who's genuine and who isn't, and I don't know the criteria. There are some with no surname, which may well go, though if the people have given their address, maybe not.

However, the petition clearly hasn't been padded with people just joining up to say they disagree, which the one you linked to was. I didn't choose to highlight the other petition, you did. I was merely clarifying the comparison.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
And regards your twisting (once again) of my alleged (by you) opposition to the petition (though I haven’t signed it, nor do I intend to), perhaps you also missed this comment by me in the “did” comments forum:

Quote:
Well, I for one, would like to see more about the pubilc opinion at this stage in the game, as well as what influence if any, Swire's recent letters in the media have had and prior to the second appeal being dropped....

Opposition isn't really the word - scorn and disdain is probably more accurate. I certainly wasn't expecting you to sign it. Nor, indeed, to post in this thread, though of course you're free to do that.

I've said from the start of this thread that I don't see a lot of point in counting signatures. Who knows how many signatures are considered to be enough to make the politicos take notice of something they don't want to touch? Even several million could be dismissed on the grounds that the population of the world is like, what, six billion, so really this is nothing.

I rather expect the reaction to be something along those lines.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
UH no kidding. See above duplicated sig’s as well as my previous comments about real evidence, tens of thousands of forum and blog comments postings and nothing from Megrahi / his family re: this alleged not guilty "cause" resulting in nothing.

Um, Megrahi's eldest son has signed the petition, did you miss that?

"Resulting in nothing." You're very fond of saying that, aren't you? You know what, we know the conviction has not been overturned, that's why we're having this conversation. There are very powerful political forces who most definitely don't want to see that happen, and it's difficult to counter these, I freely acknowledge.

So of course you're free to heap scorn on these attempts. However, a rational presentation of the evidence you believe supports Megrahi's guilt would be more interesting.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Based on the Scottish government’s actions toward, not only the victims and their families, but also the Scottish people, on the release of a convicted murderer, all I can say is …. Best of luck to ya. You keep posting and regurgitating media. Maybe some day someone (distant voice echoing, again, "where is Megrahi's voice in this now?") will listen. But I’m not holding my breath.

I don't understand why you're so exercised about what Megrahi is or isn't doing now he's in Libya. I have literally no clue what point you're trying to make.

Yes, the Scottish government chose to release Megrahi as a convicted murderer, to avoid the embarrassment and possibly worse of his appeal being heard in open court and (as Architect points out) likely to have been successful on any fair reading of the evidence. As you may have noticed, I'm quite hacked off about that.

Personally, I think the evidence is quite clear enough that the judgement of history will be in Megrahi's favour. It would be quite nice to do something about it in a shorter timescale though, for the primary purpose of removing the stain from the Scottish justice system.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2010, 08:36 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
FWIW, the plane would normally have passed over my own town about 5 minutes later, hence the interest.

For what it's worth, Architect, I think the plane would have been a bit to the east of where you live, just as I think my parents would have been a bit further east again.



That's the closest flightpath we could identify to that scheduled for Maid of the Seas, though in fact I think it's a little south over the Hebrides - the real path would probably have crossed Skye.

By the way, it totally gives the lie to the myth that the plane would have been "far out over the Atlantic" if it hadn't been (about 10 minutes) late.

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Old 20th October 2010, 10:13 AM   #84
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In good weather we can see the high altitude Atlantic jets going over, although whether it's all of them (or even a significant proportion) is a matter of pure conjecture on my part.
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Old 20th October 2010, 11:10 AM   #85
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1400.

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Old 20th October 2010, 12:43 PM   #86
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No, it's usually later in the day I see them. Dinner time, cutting the grass to avoid cooking, that kind of thing.
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Old 20th October 2010, 01:53 PM   #87
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Funny ha-ha!

Buncrana found a really interesting site. http://flightaware.com/live/findflig...stinationName=

That link goes to flights from Heathrow to JFK. If you check it every day, you get a good idea of the variety of routes these planes take. In the time I've been watching it, they've all passed over Ireland, closer to the Great Circle route than the route that goes over Scotland. Very very occasional flights have passed to the south of Ireland.

The furthest north I've seen one of these go was over the Isle of Man. However, Buncrana found several tracing the Maid of the Seas route by looking at nearby airports - I think that route above was one going to Newark. There was another which passed even further north, going north of Skye.

It seems that these transatlantic flights out of London take variable routes describing a wedge shape, with the most southerly going just south of Ireland and the most northerly going just north of Skye. Routes over Ireland seem to be the most common (the Great Circle route crosses Ireland), but the routes going over Scotland are quite standard too. I have read that on 21st December 1988 there was bad weather over Ireland, so the more northerly routes were in use. Maid of the Seas was routed to pass over Benbecula and exit Scottish airspace at 59N 10W "not before 19.47".

However, looking at the map it's not hard to see that no matter which route had been taken (with the exception of the odd flight that passes south of Ireland), the plane couldn't possibly have been over the open sea by 17.03 (the time of the explosion), even if it had positively sprinted off the blocks at Heathrow. It might have gone down in the Irish Sea, but hitting that ten-minute window with a timer set hours in advance and considering the vagaries of Heathrow departures would have been an extremely long shot. The idea that the explosion was timed to happen far out over the Atlantic and this only went wrong because "the plane was late" (it wasn't), is rubbish.

On the other hand, we have what Caustic Logic called "the huge picture window" of the Atlantic, which the plane would have taken at least three hours to cross. A schoolby could have figured out that the time to set that timer for was about 10 pm. Not "to aim for the window sill and miss".

Except, that's all a bit of a digression. 1,430 signatures now.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2010, 02:30 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I certainly wasn't expecting you to sign it. Nor, indeed, to post in this thread, though of course you're free to do that.
Why, thank you, Jo.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've said from the start of this thread that I don't see a lot of point in counting signatures.
Then what's the point of the whole petition in asking for signatures????

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Um, Megrahi's eldest son has signed the petition, did you miss that?
Yay!

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
"Resulting in nothing." You're very fond of saying that, aren't you?
Yes, sorta like you're fond of the word "sigh". I am also fond of acknowledging the facts.


Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't understand why you're so exercised about what Megrahi is or isn't doing now he's in Libya. I have literally no clue what point you're trying to make.
Now I'm confused on what point you're trying to make, particularly when you make the above statement, and then follow it with this:

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Personally, I think the evidence is quite clear enough that the judgement of history will be in Megrahi's favour.
If Megrahi doesn't matter, then why do you care about whether or not the judgment / history is in his favor? Is your concern about Scot's rights, and their (your) messed up government? or is your concern about Megrahi? If it's abut the former, I absolutely understand, agree with and support you there. If it's not about the latter, then why not focus on changing / doing something about your government, as opposed to making 20,000 plus comments on the Megrahi topic?

Maybe it's just a chicken and egg conversation. If that's the case, seems to me the messed up government came well before Megrahi. Maybe a new thread that's all about the messed up Scottish government is more appropriate, as opposed to staging your argument upon a convicted murderer. And yes, I'm fond of those words "convicted murderer", as well as the following words: evidence (as in court of law, not media blather), and your favorite; "guilty".

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Old 20th October 2010, 02:43 PM   #89
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I quite like "Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission", myself.

Quote:
5.0 Grounds of referral

5.1 The following is a brief summary of some of the Commission’s main findings on the grounds of review which formed the basis of the grounds of referral:
  • A number of the submissions made on behalf of the applicant challenged the reasonableness of the trial court’s verdict, based on the legal test contained in section 106(3)(b) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. The Commission rejected the vast majority of those submissions. However, in examining one of the grounds, the Commission formed the view that there is no reasonable basis in the trial court’s judgment for its conclusion that the purchase of the items from Mary’s House, took place on 7 December 1988. Although it was proved that the applicant was in Malta on several occasions in December 1988, in terms of the evidence 7 December was the only date on which he would have had the opportunity to purchase the items. The finding as to the date of purchase was therefore important to the trial court’s conclusion that the applicant was the purchaser. Likewise, the trial court’s conclusion that the applicant was the purchaser was important to the verdict against him. Because of these factors the Commission has reached the view that the requirements of the legal test may be satisfied in the applicant’s case.
  • New evidence not heard at the trial concerned the date on which the Christmas lights were illuminated in the area of Sliema in which Mary’s House is situated. In the Commission’s view, taken together with Mr Gauci’s evidence at trial and the contents of his police statements, this additional evidence indicates that the purchase of the items took place prior to 6 December 1988. In other words, it indicates that the purchase took place at a time when there was no evidence at trial that the applicant was in Malta.
  • Additional evidence, not made available to the defence, which indicates that four days prior to the identification parade at which Mr Gauci picked out the applicant, he saw a photograph of the applicant in a magazine article linking him to the bombing. In the Commission’s view evidence of Mr Gauci’s exposure to this photograph in such close proximity to the parade undermines the reliability of his identification of the applicant at that time and at the trial itself.
  • Other evidence, not made available to the defence, which the Commission believes may further undermine Mr Gauci’s identification of the applicant as the purchaser and the trial court’s finding as to the date of purchase.

I'm not quite sure how one can pursue this issue without involving Megrahi. He's the one who was framed, after all. One can hardly right that wrong without reference to him.

I just don't understand why you keep coming back to what he is or isn't doing at the moment, apparently trying to imply this means something.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2010, 02:46 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Maybe it's just a chicken and egg conversation. If that's the case, seems to me the messed up government came well before Megrahi. Maybe a new thread that's all about the messed up Scottish government is more appropriate, as opposed to staging your argument upon a convicted murderer. And yes, I'm fond of those words "convicted murderer", as well as the following words: evidence (as in court of law, not media blather), and your favorite; "guilty".
People are quite rightly concerned about some things that may have been done in the name of the Scottish justice system. That is more important to us than some posturing about the patsy.
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Old 20th October 2010, 02:50 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Maybe it's just a chicken and egg conversation. If that's the case, seems to me the messed up government came well before Megrahi.
Too funny
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Old 20th October 2010, 02:55 PM   #92
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Maybe she's talking about 1707?

No, sorry, Bunntamas can't possibly understand that.

The Lockerbie bombing happened in 1988. Megrahi was indicted in November 1991.

The Scottish government did not come into being in its present form until 1999.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2010, 03:24 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Good for you. Results?

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I quite I'm not quite sure how one can pursue this issue without involving Megrahi. He's the one who was framed, after all. One can hardly right that wrong without reference to him.

I just don't understand why you keep coming back to what he is or isn't doing at the moment, apparently trying to imply this means something.

Rolfe.
My point was that you said you didn't care about Megrahi, he's in Libya now.... or something to that effect. If he doesn't matter to you, what's the point in arguing about him? OR is this another lingustics thing? My other point / question was: is this about a quest for justice for Megrahi? Or is it about justice for the scottish people / and the corruption within the Scottish government? I actually think they are two issues about which aguments can be be made distinctly. IMO, I think the Megrahi case is being made a pawn in the Scottish people's discord with their government. Arguing that one argument cannot be made without the other is absurd.
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Old 20th October 2010, 03:25 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by funk de fino View Post
People are quite rightly concerned about some things that may have been done in the name of the Scottish justice system. That is more important to us than some posturing about the patsy.
EXACTLY!!! Though, I don't think he's a patsy.
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Old 20th October 2010, 03:27 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Maybe she's talking about 1707?

No, sorry, Bunntamas can't possibly understand that.

Rolfe.
WOW. Now you're heading down the CL path. I thought more of you than that.
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Old 20th October 2010, 03:30 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Maybe she's talking about 1707?

The Lockerbie bombing happened in 1988. Megrahi was indicted in November 1991.

The Scottish government did not come into being in its present form until 1999.

Rolfe.
So what! I'm talking about what you can do NOW, but you aren't. Rather, you spend your time posting in forums and on blogs, as opposed to writing letters to your government NOW, lobbying them, meeting with them, getting involved, etc. This is what the PA103 families did. We met in front of the White House and drew names of senators and congress people out of a hat, then we showed up at their offices on capitol hill and and spoke with our representatives, we asked for their support. Some of them gave it, some didn't, but we were relentless with our government. We scheduled more meetings, and more meetings, and more... and got in their faces and refused to go away until they listened to us.
You post and gripe and spend countless hours in in these fourums and blogs where none with any authority reads or has any power to change anything you're griping about. Lotta good that will do.

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Old 20th October 2010, 03:39 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Is your concern about Scot's rights, and their (your) messed up government? or is your concern about Megrahi? If it's abut the former, I absolutely understand, agree with and support you there.

My concern is about the messed up Scottish criminal justice system, in case you've forgotten. But you think it performed just fine, so I don't see much scope for agreement here.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
If it's not about the latter, then why not focus on changing / doing something about your government, as opposed to making 20,000 plus comments on the Megrahi topic?

I have not the slightest intention of trying to change the Scottish government. On the contrary, I will be out there campaigning to get them re-elected. If any shoe-leather I can wear out will help get Christine Grahame one extra vote, I'm up for it.

And if you think I've made 20,000 posts about Lockerbie, you really need to take a closer look at my posting history over the past seven years.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2010, 03:41 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I just don't understand why you keep coming back to what he is or isn't doing at the moment, apparently trying to imply this means something. Rolfe.
Okay. So I guess that answers my question about whether or not Megrahi matters, or if this is really all about Scots' strife w/ their government.
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Old 20th October 2010, 03:45 PM   #99
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ETA: I think we're talking right past each other. I have pretty much no clue what you're talking about in most of these posts.

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Old 20th October 2010, 03:49 PM   #100
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Old 20th October 2010, 03:51 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
My concern is about the messed up Scottish criminal justice system, in case you've forgotten.
Okay then. Finally, some clarity. So it IS about the Scottish government. Here, I was thinking that with all of the countless loooong, as you say "wall" posts you've made about "alleged" evidence and the Megrahi case, that it was about him. Sorry, my mistake.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
But you think it performed just fine, so I don't see much scope for agreement here.
Uh, no. I don't think it performed "just fine". It released a convicted murderer. Against the UN agreement to keep him imprisoned in Scotland, based its whoring to the UK over an oil deal, and on medical advice that was paid for by Libya. But that's another forum.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I have not the slightest intention of trying to change the Scottish government.
Well, that's just sad, considering the current state of affairs.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
On the contrary, I will be out there campaigning to get them re-elected. If any shoe-leather I can wear out will help get Christine Grahame one extra vote, I'm up for it.
Wait, I'm confused. Is voting not considered trying to change the government in Soctland? Oh yeah, don't mind me. I don't know anything about devolution.
Good luck with Christine. Maybe your one vote will count. Maybe not doing anything else will make a difference, particularly considering you don't care.
Oh, and by the way, while you're out there shopping for new shoe leather (whilst not doing anything to make a change in your government), maybe you can write a letter or something to convince Christine to get a new hair style - or at least a comb.
Maybe then, someone in parliament will listen to her. Or you, even though you don't care to make a change.

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Old 20th October 2010, 03:51 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
1,439 signatures.

One to note in particular.

Gareth Peirce.

One very influential lawyer. Was referred to as a "legal genius" on a radio programme I was listening to last week.

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Old 20th October 2010, 03:55 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post


Okay then. Finally, some clarity. So it IS about the Scottish government.

If the US criminal justice system and the US government are the same thing, then fine. It's not that way here.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Here, I was thinking that with all of the countless loooong, as you say "wall" posts you've made about "alleged" evidence and the Megrahi case, that it was about him. Sorry, my mistake.

I'm not sure how you can separate Megrahi from concerns about his wrongful conviction, any more than you can separate Sally Clark from concerns about accusing mothers of SIDS babies of murder.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Uh, no. I don't think it performed "just fine". It released a convicted murderer.

Let's take this slowly. The criminal justice system convicted a man of mass murder on evidence that would look pretty shaky as a basis for issuing a parking ticket. The government granted compassionate release to a terminally ill prisoner in accordance with the law and precedent.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Against the UN agreement to keep him imprisoned in Scotland, based its whoring to the UK over an oil deal, and on medical advice that was paid for by Libya. But that's another forum.

And if you're still parroting these discredited lies about oil deals and Libya paying for a medical opinion, maybe we need to take a break from this conversation.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Good luck with that. Maybe while shopping for new shoe leather, you can convince Christine to get a new hair style - or at least a comb.

I suspect she has more important things on her mind.

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Old 20th October 2010, 04:04 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If And if you're still parroting these discredited lies about oil deals and Libya paying for a medical opinion, maybe we need to take a break from this comversation.
Discredited by whom? The media that you repeatedy "parrot"?
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Old 20th October 2010, 04:05 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I suspect she has more important things on her mind.
What mind?
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Old 20th October 2010, 04:07 PM   #106
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Discredited by the actual evidence supplied to the US Senators, that they didn't bother to read.

And Christine is actually my MSP at the moment, and works extemely hard for the constituency.

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Old 20th October 2010, 04:28 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If the US criminal justice system and the US government are the same thing, then fine. It's not that way here.
Um... yes. The criminal justice system here is part of the US government. I'll not chastise you the way you did me for not knowing about the differences in our governments.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm not sure how you can separate Megrahi from concerns about his wrongful conviction, any more than you can separate Sally Clark from concerns about accusing mothers of SIDS babies of murder.
How 'bout we stay on topic here, hmmm???

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Let's take this slowly.
Good idea.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The criminal justice system
Yes, the Scottish criminal justice system.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
convicted a man of mass murder on evidence that would look pretty shaky as a basis for issuing a parking ticket.
Oh gawd, must we go back into Megrahi's affiliations with and employment by terrorists? As I've said before, I have no interest in regurgitating the evidence and verdict which has not been struck down in a court of law. I know I sound like a broken record (though perhaps no more than you and others here regurgitating the media and trial transcripts for years), but it is what it is, and until that changes, sorry, but he's still a convicted murderer. And it was hardly a parking ticket. Have you forgotten that with regards Megrahi, we're talking about the murder of 270 innocents? You call that a parking ticket?????

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The government granted compassionate release to a terminally ill prisoner in accordance with the law and precedent.
Okay, so according to the law and precedent, again, Megrahi is guilty.
According to the law and precedent on his release, There was an agreement made with the UN that Megrahi would serve out his sentance in Scotland. According to the law and precedent, he was given of 3 months to live, per a prison GP who was advised by other doctors who were paid by Libya. It has now been more than a year since he was released. And the doctors are all back peddling now. And Scotland is wondering why and pushing back on the US is inquiring about WTF happened, while Scotland throws up their hands in the air and says "it's none of your business"!! HELLO???
Heaven forbid anyone uncover the whoring of Scotland to the UK. YES, for an oil deal.
Have a look at this document, pg. 11 where MacAskill states “I also note that you consider that it may be necessary to offer to incorporate a review procedure in order to give the Libyan authorities room to manoevere”. What do YOU think he was talking about. Manoevere about what? And Why? Oh right, it's all about legal precedence. Yeah. Loop hole in devolution, perhaps? Why on earth would Kenny be looking for room to manoevere in correspondence w/ the UK about Libya if he were all about upholding the laws of Scotland. Bollocks!

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Old 20th October 2010, 04:30 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And Christine is actually my MSP at the moment, and works extemely hard for the constituency.
Wowee.. you must be so proud. Particularly considering everything she has accomplished.
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Old 20th October 2010, 04:39 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Um... yes. The criminal justice system here is part of the US government. I'll not chastise you the way you did me for not knowing about the differences in our governments.

You didn't recognise a rhetorical question, did you? My point is that you seem to be assuming, wrongly, that it's the same here.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
How 'bout we stay on topic here, hmmm???

I think we're quite a long way from that already. However, the use of analogies is recognised by all forms of debate.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Yes, the Scottish criminal justice system.

Which issued a perverse conviction on the basis of evidence which at the very least had "reasonable doubt" sticking out all over it.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Oh gawd, must we go back into Megrahi's affiliations with and employment by terrorists?

Like Barry George dressed up in black clothes and a gas mask and waved a toy gun around. Like Sally Clark was a "lonely drunk". Like countless people have been fitted up by the cops because their faces fit.

And there isn't even any evidence of what you just said. The people in the Lockerbie case who were known to be affiliated with and employed by terrorists were Talb and Khreesat and Jibril and Elias and so on.

So they must have done it, right?

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
As I've said before, I have no interest in regurgitating the evidence which has not been struck down. And it was hardly a parking ticket. Have you forgotten that with regards Megrahi, we're talking about the murder of 270 innocents? You call that a parking ticket????? Puuuuhhhlease.

All the more reason to have a fair and honest trial, and make sure you convict the right guy. Might not matter much if someone gets a partking ticket meant for someone else, hardly worth challenging it really. 270 murders is a bit different, as you rightly point out.

Any time you want to explain how the evidence that was accepted by the Zeist court added up to Megrahi having committed that crime, feel free to carry on.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
On the basis of 3 months to live. It has now been more than a years since he was released. And heaven forbid anyone uncover the whoring of Scotland to the UK. YES, for an oil deal.

Well, when any deal is uncovered, come and tell us about it. It is literally impossible for the Scottish government to "whore to the UK for an oil deal".

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Have a look at this document, pg. 11 where MacAskill states “I also note that you consider that it may be necessary to offer to incorporate a review procedure in order to give the Libyan authorities room to manoevere” Loop hole in devolution, perhaps? Why on earth would Kenny be looking for room to manoevere in correspondence w/ the UK about Libya if he were all about upholding the laws of Scotland. Bollocks!

Bollocks is about right. Have you actually read that letter? It's dated 2007, before anybody knew Megrahi had cancer. It's part of the correspondence about the PTA, and its purpose is to explain to Jack Straw that Kenny MacAskill wants Megrahi specifically excluded from the proposed PTA precisely because he wants to keep faith with the US Lockerbie relatives, goddammit!

Just read what the letter says. Kenny is taking note that Jack Straw wants to include a review procedure in the PTA, to allow the Libyans a bit of leeway to help secure the signing of the agreement. Kenny is saying that he is against this, but if it has to happen he wants it to be made clear that the Scottish government also has a say in the matter.

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Old 20th October 2010, 04:50 PM   #110
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Honestly, Bunntamas, the level of comprehension fail in what you just posted about that letter is just staggering. Do you think you could start reading for comprehension, rather than for cherry-picked sentences that even in isolation don't support your case as you imagine they will?

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Old 20th October 2010, 04:53 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post


Any time you want to explain how the evidence that was accepted by the Zeist court added up to Megrahi having committed that crime, feel free to carry on.
Quote:
However, having considered the whole evidence in the case, including the
uncertainties and qualifications, and the submissions of counsel, we are satisfied that the evidence as to the purchase of
clothing in Malta, the presence of that clothing in the primary suitcase, the transmission of an item of baggage from Malta to London, the identification of the first accused (albeit not absolute), his movements under a false name at or around the material time, and the other background circumstances such as his association with Mr Bollier and with members of the JSO or Libyan military who purchased MST-13 timers, does fit together to form a real and convincing
pattern. There is nothing in the evidence which leaves us with any reasonable doubt as to the guilt of the first accused,
and accordingly we find him guilty of the remaining charge in the Indictment as amended.
[90] The verdicts returned were by a unanimous decision of the three judges of the Court.
Until this is proven otherwise, in a court of law, under legal precedent (your words, your government)
the judgment stands. Sorry darling.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is literally impossible for the Scottish government to "whore to the UK for an oil deal".
OMG. Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

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Old 20th October 2010, 04:58 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Honestly, Bunntamas, the level of comprehension fail in what you just posted about that letter is just staggering. Do you think you could start reading for comprehension, rather than for cherry-picked sentences that even in isolation don't support your case as you imagine they will?

Rolfe.
My case is already supported, per your government. If you don't like it, do something about it, other than spending countless hours posting in a forum where nobody can do anything about something you seemingly care so deeply for.
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Old 20th October 2010, 04:59 PM   #113
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And by the way, in case you hadn't been paying attention the negotiations for Megrahi's release were indeed going on at the time that correspondence took place. The correspondence I noted may have been in 2007 (and prior), but it's an ongoing correspondence though 2009.

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Old 20th October 2010, 05:00 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
Until this is proven otherwise, in a court of law, under legal precedent (your words, your government)
the judgment stands. Sorry darling.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. You're like someone who keeps jumping into a conversation about whether pot should be legalised or not with "but it's illegal and that settles it".

If you can't explain how the evidence accepted by the Zeist court supports the guilty verdict, may I take it that you don't know?

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
OMG. Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

Well, could you explain to me in terms of the devolution settlement, the relationships between the Westminster and Holyrood governments, and who actually deals in oil and profits from it, how such "whoring" is possible and how MacAskill benefits?

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Old 20th October 2010, 05:01 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
My case is already supported, per your government. If you don't like it, do something about it, other than spending countless hours posting in a forum where nobody can do anything about something you seemingly care so deeply for.

Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
And by the way, in case you hadn't been paying attention the negotiations for Megrahi's release were indeed going on at the time that correspondence took place.

Bunntamas, I hate to be so blunt, but every post you make on this topic, which is a complete derail by the way, demonstrates your utter lack of comprehension of the issues at a level which is so fundamental I'm close to despair.

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Old 20th October 2010, 05:03 PM   #116
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And if you want to nit pick, the spelling, per "legalese" is judgment, not judgement.
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Old 20th October 2010, 05:13 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Bunntamas, I hate to be so blunt, but every post you make on this topic, which is a complete derail by the way, demonstrates your utter lack of comprehension of the issues at a level which is so fundamental I'm close to despair.

I'll try again. In 2007, the Libyan government was trying to get Megrahi sent back to Libya to complete his sentence there. Which was completely against the agreement that had been reached between the US Lockerbie relatives and Westminster of course, but they had written a get-out clause into that so that was OK.

The Libyan government was trying to trade off access to oil for a Prisoner Transfer Agreement, which didn't mention Megrahi but was all about him anyway because there were no other Libyan prisoners in Britain. Tony Blair the UK PM was minded to agree to this, despite earlier (non-binding) agreements. At the start of the negotiations, he anticipated no problem with the Scottish government because Jack McConnell was First Minister and Tony was his boss. If Tony had said "send Megrahi back to Libya", Jack would have bought his ticket for him.

There was an election in Scotland in May 2007, and contrary to Tony's expectations, Jack lost. The SNP took power, and started making trouble about the PTA, insisting that Megrahi be specifically excluded from its provisions, because it recognised that assurances had been given to the US relatives about that.

Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Jack Straw found that they had to consult the new Scottish government even though they hated their guts. Kenny argued hard for Megrahi to be excluded from the PTA, and at one point Jack Straw agreed. Then he went back on that, ans said he had to be included.

That is the context of that letter. Kenny MacAskill trying to prevent Libya from being given the legal power to apply to have Megrahi repatriated under a PTA. Acknowledging that Jack Straw has said it may be necessary to give Libya a bit of wiggle-room, and Kenny then saying he would really rather not, thank you.

What is it about this you find so hard to understand? The wording of the letter is completely clear.

Rolfe.
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Old 20th October 2010, 05:14 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Bunntamas, I hate to be so blunt, but every post you make on this topic, which is a complete derail by the way, demonstrates your utter lack of comprehension of the issues at a level which is so fundamental I'm close to despair.

Rolfe.
Okay, you're right. I'm wrong, don't know anything, never did.
See ya.
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Old 20th October 2010, 05:15 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Bunntamas View Post
And if you want to nit pick, the spelling, per "legalese" is judgment, not judgement.

Either is accepted UK spelling, but the latter is favoured. Note, favoured. I don't pull you up for using US spelling.

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Old 20th October 2010, 05:46 PM   #120
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I personally think the CIA blew up Pan Am 103. There was some guy onboard who was with the Department of Defense, and he either witnessed something seriously bad happen during the 444-day embassy siege in Iran, or knew somebody who did.

There are people with the CIA who would be willing to blow an airliner full of passengers in order to take one person out and maintain plausible deniability (in this case the deniability is that you could blame it on a terrorist attack). Ironically, the CIA did find the electronic components that were responsible for allegedly detonating the bomb.

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Hope I don't stop posting any time soon, or die mysteriously. I don't plan on flying on a plane anytime soon clearly
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