ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing

Reply
Old 15th November 2010, 05:42 AM   #241
Caustic Logic
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,494
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Er, that was a slightly tongue-in-cheek reference to the terminology being used in the Amanda Knox thread. I have no particular wish to import it!
It's cut off right there, then. I'll ponder on a nice term then.


Quote:
I think that's what that appalling STV film was all about - trying to change the Scottish cultural norm by pretending that a bunch of stuff that simply ain't so is accepted fact. I don't think it had much effect, mind you.
Somehow I don't suspect their most important audience was Scottish or even British. An awful lot of Americans like to say "the Scots agree with us," and I'm sure they show each other that video a lot as proof.
Caustic Logic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2010, 07:42 AM   #242
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 8,421
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40582934...ideastn_africa

The bad guys near death anyway.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2010, 07:47 AM   #243
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,960
Yes, we know.

Don't know if he was a "bad guy" or not. Didn't blow up Pan Am 103 though. Never any other allegations against him either.

Too bad.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2010, 10:11 AM   #244
Skeptic
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 18,312
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...was-freed.html

"Compassionate release", my behind.

So, to sum up, he was released because they were afraid of Quaddafi Kaddafi Qadaphi that Libyan lunatic, but that's just fine, you know, because he wasn't really guilty anyway.

Last edited by Skeptic; 9th December 2010 at 10:13 AM.
Skeptic is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th December 2010, 10:52 AM   #245
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,960
Er, no.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2010, 12:13 AM   #246
Kopji
 
Kopji's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 7,990
The nearly constant musing about what our motivations might be has a very religious flavor. The arguments still seem very 'let's start with the conclusion and then work backward to find evidence that supports us'.

Both sides guilty. So maybe for some of us, the response is something like ' a pox on both your houses'. Do entertain the possibility that none of us know the whole truth of this.

I'd be interested in watching an old documentary from 1994 called 'The Maltese Double Cross Lockerbie'. This was a 1994 documentary produced by Allan Francovich. Seen in the UK and at a film festival in Scotland. This film has never been shown in the US. The criticism that it was pretty much funded by the Libyans as a propaganda exercise - and widely viewed in Scotland for a long time - seems like a film I'd like to watch and judge for myself.

There is an internet link to the movie, but it is 404'd for me.
Kopji is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2010, 02:08 AM   #247
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,960
http://www.archive.org/details/The-Maltese-Double-Cross

There you go. I also have an accurate transcript of the film, if anyone is interested.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2010, 03:54 AM   #248
Buncrana
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 458
Originally Posted by Kopji View Post
..I'd be interested in watching an old documentary from 1994 called 'The Maltese Double Cross Lockerbie'. This was a 1994 documentary produced by Allan Francovich. Seen in the UK and at a film festival in Scotland. This film has never been shown in the US. The criticism that it was pretty much funded by the Libyans as a propaganda exercise - and widely viewed in Scotland for a long time - seems like a film I'd like to watch and judge for myself.

There is an internet link to the movie, but it is 404'd for me.

I'd like to just clarify for anyone watching The Maltese Double Cross how the criticisms and suggestions that the film was a piece of 'Libyan propaganda', as suggested most notably by some of the prominent members of VPA103, surfaced. Francovich himself addressed the issue with Frank Duggan in 1995 in a discussion about the film after it had broadcast on Channel 4 in the UK.

The film had received investment from UK businessman Tiny Roland, who's company Lonrho owned an International chain of Hotels, Metropol, many of which were based in Africa, and it was this subsidiary that had had investment from Libya.

Francovich was adamant he had had total editorial independence during the film making and had been completely transparent with regards to the films funding sources. He rejected the accusation that either he or the film had been unduly influenced or coerced in it's direction or content. Francovich stated, "The aim is to smear people in the film in order to divert attention from the mass of evidence that supports our claims."
Buncrana is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2010, 04:31 AM   #249
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,960
There is some totally riveting stuff in The Maltese Double Cross. However, it suffers from having been made so early. It has quite a few factual errors, simply due to not knowing things that came out in the 2000 trial. It also, I think, goes galloping after a red herring. If Francovich had lived, I wonder if he'd have made an updated version?

Even as early as 1994, the suspicion that the fragment of timer circuit board was a plant was strong. However, Francovich got the specifics of where and when it was found entirely wrong. He also didn't know the half of it, as regards the later evidence of altered records and huge reason to suspect that the thing was retrospectively inserted into the evidence chain in September 1989.

The main problem, however, is that the film majors on the "Frankfurt bag-switch theory", which was very current in the early 1990s thanks mainly to Juval Aviv but also Lester Coleman (both of whom are interviewed in the film). Later material suggests that the bomb didn't go on at Frankfurt at all, but at Heathrow.

It seems to be fact that the US Drug Enforcement Agency was at that time running an operation where shipments of heroin were allowed into the USA through Detroit, these then being tracked by DEA agents so that the dealers in the USA could be apprehended. PA103 seems to have been one of the flights that was used, but the DEA hotly denied that it was being used for that purpose on 21st December 1988.

Except, one of the couriers known to be involved in that exercise, a 20-year-old Lebanese youth called Khaled Jafaar, was killed at Lockerbie.

It's known that the procedure was for the drug suitcases to be escorted round security at Frankfurt so that they were never checked by the x-ray machine. The suspicion was therefore that somehow the bomb suitcase had been substituted for the drug suitcase. This was Juval Aviv's thesis, suggesting that the switch took place in the airport itself after the courier had checked in an identical, innocuous piece of luggage. He claimed that the airport worker who had the job of switching this for the drugs was slipped the bomb instead.

Francovich's take is rather different, in that he seems to be suggesting Jafaar was given the bomb itself to take through check-in. Quite how it was then intercepted and escorted past the x-ray stage wasn't explained as far as I can see. There are a number of interviews with Jafaar's relatives blaming Hizbollah for the exercise, but a lot of it doesn't stack up.

Also, one of the abiding legends of Lockerbie is that a suitcase full of heroin was found on the ground, at Tundergarth Mains farm, but that this later vanished and the farmer who found it (Jim Wilson) has never said another word about it after an interview with the Scottish police. If the drug suitcase was on the plane, it wasn't substituted for the bomb.

It's impossible to say that the bomb wasn't introduced at Frankfurt, because all the relevant Frankfurt baggage records vanished within a few days of the crash, at the time when the Frankfurt police were conducting their initial enquiries at the airport. What was that all about? Nobody is telling.

However, what Francovich didn't know is that there was strong evidence the bomb was introduced at Heathrow. In 1991 a Heathrow baggage handler gave evidence to the Fatal Accident Inquiry in Dumfries, describing how he saw a suitcase matching the description of the bomb bag mysteriously appear in the luggage container he had set aside for PA103, before the feeder flight from Frankfurt had landed. It was this container (which subsequently also received luggage from the Frankfurt flight) which was found to have been the centre of the explosion. The suitcase the baggage handler saw was never identified as having been recovered at the crash - the only suitcase matching his description was the one found in small pieces exploded all over the landscape.

This evidence was given in 1991, but it was ignored and indeed buried. The sheriff conducting the FAI had been given explicit instructions to find that the bomb had been interlined into Frankfurt unaccompanied from an unspecified third airport, and duly turned the evidence on its head in order to make that finding. In the course of all this, the evidence about the suitcase at Heathrow was buried, never making it to the final report of the FAI. So Francovich never knew about it.

It was only in 2000 when the Heathrow baggage handler was called to give evidence at Camp Zeist, that the whole thing came to light. The sound of pennies dropping could probably have been heard all over the court room. People who had been pushing the Frankfurt bag-switch theory (like Paul Foot) dumped it like a hot potato in favour of the Heathrow introduction theory.

The Maltese Double Cross is over 2 hours long. It has its longeurs in places, but it manages to be far more engaging than most of the more modern stuff which crams a bunch of facts and speculation into less than half that time. I'd just love to know what Francovich would have done with the story if he'd known about the dodgy paper trail surrounding the timer fragment, and the flimsy paper instruction manual which apparently survived a Semtex explosion only inches away, and the tale of the brown Samsonite suitcase seen at Heathrow.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 10th December 2010 at 04:59 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2010, 11:58 AM   #250
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Insiders and Gaddafi report that he is very close to death and on life support.
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2010, 02:04 PM   #251
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,960
East Renfrewshire Council, however, beg to differ.

Originally Posted by David Leask
Abdelbaset al Megrahi remains in touch with Scottish officials and is not in a coma, sources said last night.

The Herald understands that the Libyan, the only person convicted of the 1988 Lockerbie bombing, is well enough to communicate with his minders at East Renfrewshire Council.

Sources in Libya had yesterday suggested that Megrahi was unconscious and “very close to death”.

A spokesman for East Renfrewshire, however, said: “Media speculation regarding Mr Megrahi is just that and rumours are unfounded. We are in contact with Megrahi regularly and whenever we need to be for the purposes of supervision.” [....]

Megrahi has to make himself available for regular conversations with a supervisory official at East Renfrewshire council, by telephone or video link from Tripoli, as part of the conditions of his release. His medical team also have to provide monthly updates on his health.

The Herald understands that there has been “very recent” communication between Megrahi and officials in East Renfrewshire.

I had heard the "on life support" part several weeks ago, on that occasion the source was said to be his brother as far as I remember. This time it was his daughter who was given as the source. But his minders say he's reporting in regularly as required, and they spoke to him just the other day.

So who knows?

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2010, 07:47 AM   #252
funk de fino
Dreaming of unicorns
 
funk de fino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UAE
Posts: 11,938
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
East Renfrewshire Council, however, beg to differ.




I had heard the "on life support" part several weeks ago, on that occasion the source was said to be his brother as far as I remember. This time it was his daughter who was given as the source. But his minders say he's reporting in regularly as required, and they spoke to him just the other day.

So who knows?

Rolfe.
I read yesterday that Gaddafi said it but cannot cofirm that as I no longer have the paper. As for very recent contact, my mother was given the all clear, then fell ill again, got the results of the follow up scan and was dead one week later. She passed a return to work interview two weeks prior to her death.
__________________

Stundie - Avoided like the plaque, its a scottish turn of phrase.
funk de fino is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:20 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.