ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103

Reply
Old 21st August 2009, 04:31 AM   #81
tfk
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,454
Twin,
Originally Posted by bill smith
I find it interesting that Al-M. is said to be dying of advanced prostate cancer. This is a slow growing, easily detectable cancer that the prison authorities clearly had a duty of care to screen for in such a long -term prisoner.
Given that prostate cancer is probably he most common cancer in men over 40 and that the symptoms lead to a simple early diagnosis and mostly successful teatment there is definitely culpable negligence involved.
....unless we are being led by the nose as usual.
Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Is there ANYTHING that you don't think is a conspiracy?

Tell BS for me that his rabbit hole goes deeper.

Much deeper.

UK Prostate Cancer Mortality stats: http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/can...ate/mortality/

In 2007, there were 10,239 prostate cancer deaths. The conspiracy broadens. All those UK docs...

And don't they have socialized medicine? So, isn't EVERYONE under 24/7 care?

Bill appears to think that being a mass murderer entitles you to BETTER care than the, uh, "contributing" members of society.

Now, I wouldn't consider advocating worse care for prisoners than for the general public. But in this putz's case, it's really tempting ...

tk
tfk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 04:58 AM   #82
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
You may believe that the Greater Glasgow Health Board figures on prostate cancer detection are poor. I think I mentioned that in an earlier post. However, there is no realistic doubt that Megrahi has terminal prostate cancer. Thus this seems a pretty irrelevant point to focus on as regards the alleged stitch-up and cover-up.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 05:35 AM   #83
twinstead
Penultimate Amazing
 
twinstead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,370
I'm just flabberghasted at some of the silly things that make some people go, "Hmmmmmm".
__________________
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant. -- Harlan Ellison
twinstead is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:13 AM   #84
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
There's so much about this affair to go hmmmmm about, even though that isn't one of them. It's very difficult to distinguish the genuine anomalies and questionable actions from the barnacle-like CT accretion that tends to grow on to any affair like this over the years.

It really needs someone like Gravy to do a detailed examination of which claims actually have evidence supporting them, and I don't think that's ever been done. Much more diffcult when the main events happened pre-internet I suppose. I keep hearing isolated factoids, like a babygro that was allegedly recovered intact but shredded later, and a policewoman being told not to report that she'd found a CIA badge in the wreckage, and a suitcase full of powder that was handed to the authorities but never referred to again, and I don't know how much of this is Chinese whispers and how much based on fact.

Much speculation surrounds the document that the defence team have been trying to get the prosecution to disclose, which has repeatedly been refused on the grounds that it contains material that might damage our relationship with a foreign power. Despite the court ordering it to be produced, I don't think that ever happened.

I don't think it's being ridiculous to speculate that Megrahi may have been pressurised to withdraw his appeal (as the price of getting the compassionate release) in order to prevent that document having to be handed over.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:16 AM   #85
gtc
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 7,110
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
a policewoman being told not to report that she'd found a CIA badge in the wreckage,
Just looking at that claim, it seems a bit far fetched to think that the CIA would be clever enough to stage a bombing but sill enough to leave behind a badge.
gtc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:20 AM   #86
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 2,422
Originally Posted by gtc View Post
Just looking at that claim, it seems a bit far fetched to think that the CIA would be clever enough to stage a bombing but sill enough to leave behind a badge.
This is from memory, so Rolfe may have better info, but the CT isn't that the CIA did the whole thing as a false flag operation, but that the perpetrators were not Libyan but Syrian/Palestinian/Iranian, and that there were CIA agents on the plane, and on the ground soon after the crash and that the US government did not wish this to be known.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:22 AM   #87
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Originally Posted by gtc View Post
Just looking at that claim, it seems a bit far fetched to think that the CIA would be clever enough to stage a bombing but sill enough to leave behind a badge.

I don't think that was the claim. I'm struggling a bit here, but there's a part of the story that involves a CIA-sponsored drug-running operation which was using that flight, and the bomb was able to be smuggled on board because the bombers managed to hack the drug-smuggling operation.

I think that bit is probably barnacle.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:33 AM   #88
sophia8
Master Poster
 
sophia8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,455
Originally Posted by BillC View Post
It was a special edition, so it might be possible to obtain a back-copy.
You can buy a PDF of the report from the Eye website.
__________________
"Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney
sophia8 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:35 AM   #89
Professor Yaffle
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
 
Professor Yaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,578
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There's so much about this affair to go hmmmmm about, even though that isn't one of them. It's very difficult to distinguish the genuine anomalies and questionable actions from the barnacle-like CT accretion that tends to grow on to any affair like this over the years.

It really needs someone like Gravy to do a detailed examination of which claims actually have evidence supporting them, and I don't think that's ever been done. Much more diffcult when the main events happened pre-internet I suppose. I keep hearing isolated factoids, like a babygro that was allegedly recovered intact but shredded later, and a policewoman being told not to report that she'd found a CIA badge in the wreckage, and a suitcase full of powder that was handed to the authorities but never referred to again, and I don't know how much of this is Chinese whispers and how much based on fact.

Much speculation surrounds the document that the defence team have been trying to get the prosecution to disclose, which has repeatedly been refused on the grounds that it contains material that might damage our relationship with a foreign power. Despite the court ordering it to be produced, I don't think that ever happened.

I don't think it's being ridiculous to speculate that Megrahi may have been pressurised to withdraw his appeal (as the price of getting the compassionate release) in order to prevent that document having to be handed over.

Rolfe.
The stuff about the CIA badge is in the report about the appeal - under grounds which were not accepted.
Professor Yaffle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:46 AM   #90
sophia8
Master Poster
 
sophia8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,455
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
This is from memory, so Rolfe may have better info, but the CT isn't that the CIA did the whole thing as a false flag operation, but that the perpetrators were not Libyan but Syrian/Palestinian/Iranian, and that there were CIA agents on the plane, and on the ground soon after the crash and that the US government did not wish this to be known.
I've heard the story about "CIA got to the wreckage before anybody else", but that has to be complete baloney. First, the wreckage was scattered across a couple of hundred square miles of extremely rural countryside; second, it happened on the longest night of the year, when there wouldn't have been any daylight to see anything by before about 9.30 am. The locals were already out with torches, searching for survivors, long before then. Any CIA agents around would have been reduced to "Hey bub, did you see any wreckage come down anywhere around here? Um, you think there might be something up in those hills? Oh, right...."
And that would have been after they managed the 6-hour journey up from London...
__________________
"Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney

Last edited by sophia8; 21st August 2009 at 06:48 AM.
sophia8 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:53 AM   #91
Professor Yaffle
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
 
Professor Yaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,578
I don't know if this has been posted before, but I found this blog on the Lockerbie case written by a professor of Scots law who was involved in setting up the original trial at Camp Zeist.

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...1_archive.html
Professor Yaffle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:58 AM   #92
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
This is from memory, so Rolfe may have better info, but the CT isn't that the CIA did the whole thing as a false flag operation, but that the perpetrators were not Libyan but Syrian/Palestinian/Iranian, and that there were CIA agents on the plane, and on the ground soon after the crash and that the US government did not wish this to be known.

Something like that. The Official Theory is that Lockerbie was Libyan revenge for the US bombings of Tripoli and Benghasi in 1986 in which Gadaffi's step-daughter was killed (and which are believed to have been an attempt to assassinate Gadaffi himself). One argument against this is that Margaret Thatcher apparently didn't believe that Libya was responsible for Lockerbie, stating in her memoires that these bombings were so successful that Libya was never able to retaliate.

The CT version is that Lockerbie was actually Iranian revenge for the shooting down of the Iranian Airbus over the Persian Gulf on 3rd July 1988, which killed 248 Iranians on their way to Mecca on a pilgrimage. That incident was due to a US naval captain mistaking the scheduled passenger flight for an attacking military aircraft. Subsequently the US tried to blame Iran for what happened, and the US captain was later awarded the Legion of Merit Medal.

Iran was reportedly livid about this, and publicly vowing revenge. However, the CT goes on to claim that Iran then contracted-out the actual carrying-out of the revenge, by some accounts offering a reward for doing the deed. Palestinian terrorists are the most popular choice for this role, however Syria has also been fingered. Some versions even turn back towards Libya, suggesting that Libya might have been only too happy to do Iran's dirty work for it.

The CT tends to suggest there has been a deliberate misdirection effort on the part of the USA (the CIA) to turn attention away from all this and towards Libya alone. The motive generally being that the CIA were up to something else they don't want revealed (that alleged drug-running operation?), however the other possibility is that the USA wanted Iran onside at the time of the First Gulf War in the early 1990s, so they really, really didn't want to have to deal with the revelation that Iran was behind Lockerbie.

Having said that, the official line is that they simply didn't find the evidence they needed to incriminate the Palestinians. They did, however, find enough to make them go after Megrahi and Fhimah.

As I said, a lot of the CT stuff is barnacle, but the bare bones of the thing are certainly given credence by many people not normally dosposed to CT promotion. The SCCRC report certainly dismisses some aspects, but even there, it's impossible to say whether this is because they've definitely been discounted, or simply that they didn't find sufficient evidence.

And yes, Sophia is right. The only CIA agents present immediately after the flight crashed were the dead ones who were on the plane.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 06:58 AM   #93
Professor Yaffle
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
 
Professor Yaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,578
In one of the comments under the most recent blog entry there is this:

Quote:
However one of the US relatives knows perfectly well that Megrahi had nothing to do with it and is a very credible suspect for the bombing and the further Lockerbie related murders.
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...5&isPopup=true

Anyone know what flavour of CT he is referrring to here?

Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 21st August 2009 at 07:00 AM.
Professor Yaffle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 07:02 AM   #94
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
I don't know if this has been posted before, but I found this blog on the Lockerbie case written by a professor of Scots law who was involved in setting up the original trial at Camp Zeist.

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/20...1_archive.html

Oh thanks. I speed-read the beginning of the newspaper version of that this morning as I was having breakfast. Must read more.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 07:05 AM   #95
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 2,422
Originally Posted by sophia8 View Post
I've heard the story about "CIA got to the wreckage before anybody else", but that has to be complete baloney. First, the wreckage was scattered across a couple of hundred square miles of extremely rural countryside; second, it happened on the longest night of the year, when there wouldn't have been any daylight to see anything by before about 9.30 am. The locals were already out with torches, searching for survivors, long before then. Any CIA agents around would have been reduced to "Hey bub, did you see any wreckage come down anywhere around here? Um, you think there might be something up in those hills? Oh, right...."
And that would have been after they managed the 6-hour journey up from London...
As I said, this is from memory, but the CT wasn't 'CIA miraculously appear 5 minutes after plane crash', more that while the police were searching the next day or so other people without clear identification were seen ambling about taking away suitcases and not being stopped by the D&G plods. Personally I think this is nonsense, but it's not as far fetched as gtcs version, which is all I was trying to counter.

The main CT I think is plausible is that the organisations being blamed for it were the ones that it was politically convenient for the UK/US government to blame, not necessarily the ones that the evidence pointed to.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 07:06 AM   #96
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
In one of the comments under the most recent blog entry there is this:

https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?bl...5&isPopup=true

Anyone know what flavour of CT he is referrring to here?

No - that's a new one on me.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 07:18 AM   #97
Professor Yaffle
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
 
Professor Yaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,578
And this article mentions an alternative suspect - Abo Talb of the "Syria-based Palestinian Popular Struggle Front, which worked closely with another Syria-backed terrorist group, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)." (splitters)
http://links.org.au/node/809
Professor Yaffle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 07:26 AM   #98
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
One little bit from the Rollo book struck me as interesting. Rollo reports that Martin Cadman, the father of one of the victims, said the following....

Quote:
In February 1990, with some others from the UK Families Group, I met the American President's Commission on Aircraft Security and Terrorism in the American Embassy. At the end of the meeting after we had broken up, one of the members of the committee said to me....

Quote:
Your government and ours know exactly what happened but they're never going to tell.

Just one more snippet that can no longer be reliably pegged as fact or barnacle.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 07:58 AM   #99
sophia8
Master Poster
 
sophia8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,455
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
However, if it was put on board at Malta, how far in advance would the timer have to be set for? What sort of technology that was easily available in 1988 would allow that sort of delay to be set.
The IRA used a 28-day timer for the Brighton bomb - and that was in 1984. Finding an accurate long-range timer would have been no problem in 1997.

ETA: ARGH; That should be 1987, 0f course.
ARGH no2; That should be 1988, of course.
__________________
"Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney

Last edited by sophia8; 21st August 2009 at 08:24 AM. Reason: Corrected year
sophia8 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 08:08 AM   #100
sophia8
Master Poster
 
sophia8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,455
Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
As I said, this is from memory, but the CT wasn't 'CIA miraculously appear 5 minutes after plane crash', more that while the police were searching the next day or so other people without clear identification were seen ambling about taking away suitcases and not being stopped by the D&G plods. Personally I think this is nonsense, but it's not as far fetched as gtcs version, which is all I was trying to counter.
Agreed, that's a more likely scenario - but barely. They would have had to amble off with an awful lot of luggage to find what they were looking for before the local plods got to it.
__________________
"Nature is floods and famines and earthquakes and viruses and little blue-footed booby babies getting their brains pecked out by their stronger siblings! ....Nature doesn't care about me, or about anybody in particular - nature can be terrifying! Why do they even put words like 'natural' on products like shampoo, like it's automatically a good thing? I mean, sulfuric acid is natural!" -Julia Sweeney
sophia8 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 08:20 AM   #101
Guybrush Threepwood
Trainee Pirate
 
Guybrush Threepwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: An Uaimh
Posts: 2,422
Originally Posted by sophia8 View Post
Agreed, that's a more likely scenario - but barely. They would have had to amble off with an awful lot of luggage to find what they were looking for before the local plods got to it.
Ok, I got sucked into this thing and I've downloaded the Private Eye special. I realise that may not be regarded as a completely reliable source by everyone here, but it's by Paul Foot who I have a fair bit of time for. It's long so it will take me a while to read, but I'll post any interesting bits later on.
Guybrush Threepwood is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 08:21 AM   #102
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pie City, Arcadia
Posts: 21,395
The role of Thomas Thurman - FBI forensics, though allegedly unqualified - in the examination of timer fragments for both PanAm 103 and UTA 722 is interesting.
Also strange that the Lockerbie timer fragment was never tested for explosives residue.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 08:22 AM   #103
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Originally Posted by sophia8 View Post
The IRA used a 28-day timer for the Brighton bomb - and that was in 1984. Finding an accurate long-range timer would have been no problem in 1997.

ETA: ARGH; That should be 1988, 0f course.

I'd forgotten about that one. I suppose it's peripheral, but the complexity of the detonation timing seems unnecessary. If you know you're going to get the bomb on the plane, then just set the timer to go off as late as possible before the plane will get to the other side of the Atlantic, assuming that it's up to time (or as far ahead of time as might realistically happen). Then, if it's late (which let's face it is more likely), it will still probably have cleared land when it detonates. I'm not sure how big a window that is, but I'd have thought it was big enough.

In any event, all that messing around with pressure sensors doesn't seem to have conferred any advantage, because the delay on the tarmac at Heathrow still led to a detonation over land, regardless.

I've just got one idea, which would depend on the bag being put on board on Malta. Suppose you don't know for sure which connecting flight the bag will be transferred to at Frankfurt. Then, the pressure sensor would make sense. It would confirm that the bag was actually on the plane which would cross the Atlantic, and that the journey had begun.

Someone said, well in that case why not start the timer on the third takeoff (from Heathrow) rather than the second one (from Frankfurt). Doing that would pretty much guarantee that the desired point in the journey would be hit. My guess on that one would be that perhaps that was one complication too far, and in fact the terrorists didn't care all that much whether the plane landed on British soil or not.

I don't know if this has ever been discussed in relation to any of the prevalent theories.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 21st August 2009 at 08:32 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 09:26 AM   #104
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,773
Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
Interesting tidbit from this writeup:
Quote:
In an op-ed article for The Independent (London), Dr. Koechler has expressed serious doubts about the decision by Mr. Al Megrahi to withdraw his (second) appeal. His decision may have been made under duress and would thus be legally questionable, he said. According to Scots law, the termination of the ongoing appeal was not in any way required for compassionate release to be granted.
I suggested yesterday in the other thread that Megrahi just refile his appeal, claiming duress for the withdrawal.

Originally Posted by Professor Yaffle View Post
And this article mentions an alternative suspect - Abo Talb of the "Syria-based Palestinian Popular Struggle Front, which worked closely with another Syria-backed terrorist group, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC)." (splitters)
http://links.org.au/node/809
The PFLP-GC is indeed the most popularly fingered terrorist group who'd been the gun-for-hire for Iran.

The German police rounded up some of their guys in the Frankfurt area, and found a cache with similar radio/cassette players, some 3 weeks before Lockerbie, plus PanAm timetables; and found some more of their equipment later, signifying that the first raid hadn't deprived them of all their stuff. From the description of their MO they seem a much more plausible suspect.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjez Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 10:10 AM   #105
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
The story is that they simply couldn't find the evidence to pin it on the Palestinians.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8211596.stm

Quote:
Early suspicion fell on Ahmed Jibril, leader of Palestinian terror group the PFLP-GC, who intelligence sources suggested may have been working for Iran.

West German police mounted Operation Autumn Leaves, raiding flats near Frankfurt where the group was preparing bombs in radio cassette players.

They were similar to that used to blow up Pan Am flight 103.

But Dick Marquise, chief of the FBI "Scotbom Task Force" from 1988-1992, said investigators could find nothing later to link this plot with Lockerbie.

"We never found any evidence," he told the BBC. "There's a lot of information, there's a lot of intelligence that people have said there were meetings, there were discussions.

"But not one shred of evidence that a prosecutor could take into court to convict either an official in Iran or Ahmed Jibril for blowing up Pan Am flight 103."

Whether that means they didn't do it, or they simply covered their tracks too well, I don't suppose we'll ever know.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 02:27 PM   #106
ktesibios
Worthless Aging Hippie
 
ktesibios's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,493
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

However, if it was put on board at Malta, how far in advance would the timer have to be set for? What sort of technology that was easily available in 1988 would allow that sort of delay to be set. So maybe, that's why the pressure sensors, so that the timer didn't start until it was within its "range" for the detonation point.
Rolfe.
By that time, single-chip digital alarm clock ICs which needed only power, a timebase, a seven-segment LED display and a few pushbutton switches to make a fully-functional alarm clock could be found in the ads in the back of Popular Electronics.

Give me one of those, a 32.768 kHz watch crystal and a 4017 to count how many times the alarm output has gone active and I could easily build a timer that could be set to go off at a particular time of day up to 10 days after setting- complete with a jack into which you could plug a display and setting switch assembly to set the detonation time (or to leave hooked up to the bomb for that "stupid action movie" look).

Simply counting off an hour or two- with +- 1 second accuracy- after a pressure sensor detects that the plane is at cruising altitude really would have been trivial even with late-80s technology.

BTW, the fuzing system for the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima included a timer that started when the bomb was released and prevented detonation until it had fallen for a sufficient time to be far enough away from the airplane, a barometric sensor that also prevented detonation until the bomb had fallen to a set altitude and a radio altimeter circuit that triggered the bomb at a set height above ground level.

This was all done with vacuum tubes and relays- 1940s technology.
__________________
Ship me somewheres east of Suez, where the best is like the worst, where there ain't no ten commandments and a man can raise a small, bristly mustache.
ktesibios is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st August 2009, 03:54 PM   #107
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Just one more mystery I suppose. Though how would your plan be varied if you were putting the bag on in Malta, to a feeder flight, from which it would then be transferred to the transatlantic airliner (maybe you're not 100% sure which one?) at Frankfurt, and the transatlantic flight would make a stopover at Heathrow before heading out over the ocean?

I can see the desire to get the timing started from a later leg, but if they were going to do that, why not home in on the actual transatlantic leg itself, rather than starting the timer on the Frankfurt leg?

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:23 AM   #108
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,773
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Just one more mystery I suppose. Though how would your plan be varied if you were putting the bag on in Malta, to a feeder flight, from which it would then be transferred to the transatlantic airliner (maybe you're not 100% sure which one?) at Frankfurt, and the transatlantic flight would make a stopover at Heathrow before heading out over the ocean?

I can see the desire to get the timing started from a later leg, but if they were going to do that, why not home in on the actual transatlantic leg itself, rather than starting the timer on the Frankfurt leg?
That puzzles me too. Ktesibios is absolutely right that that technology already existed (I only would have said 7490 instead of 4017 - I fiddled a bit with an earlier generation IC's in the begin of the 80s ).The prosecution claimed that the timer was triggered on the second leg of the journey - from Frankfurt to Heathrow - gaining height. So that means that between the pressure sensor and the timer there's a counter that counts how many times the pressure sensor has triggered before it triggers the timer into action. If you can count to 2, you can also count to 3.

Another thing that puzzles me is the timing. The plane exploded over land because it was delayed. However, the delay was only 25 minutes according to wiki. That means that even if the flight had been on schedule, it would barely have left the Scottish air, or not, falling down somewhere on the Outer Hebrides. As you said before, if you want the plane to go down over the Atlantic, you'd rather plan the detonation for just before the time it would reach North America, as planes never depart too early but frequently too late.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjez Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:31 AM   #109
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,773
My google-fu by accident turned up a Daily Express article from 2007, just after Megrahi was granted his appeal.
Quote:

AN AMERICAN citizen living close to the White House has emerged as the real Lockerbie bomber, the Sunday Express can reveal.

In a sensational twist, Abu Elias, currently living near Washington DC, will be named with others believed to be in the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command (PFLP-GC) as part of a terror cell behind the Pan Am disaster.

[...]

Elias - who has a new identity the Sunday Express cannot divulge - is the nephew of the terror group's leader, Ahmed Jibril, the man believed to be the mastermind of the bombing.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjez Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 05:54 AM   #110
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Well, Daily Express, say no more....

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 07:13 AM   #111
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Another thing that puzzles me is the timing. The plane exploded over land because it was delayed. However, the delay was only 25 minutes according to wiki. That means that even if the flight had been on schedule, it would barely have left the Scottish air, or not, falling down somewhere on the Outer Hebrides. As you said before, if you want the plane to go down over the Atlantic, you'd rather plan the detonation for just before the time it would reach North America, as planes never depart too early but frequently too late.

I hadn't realised that. I hadn't really worked out how big the window was from the Outer Hebrides to Newfoundland, and I thought the plane was an hour late.

It doesn't make sense. It doesn't even make sense if the plane was intended to crash on British soil, because even though it was late, it nearly got far enough to clear habitation. In fact, once you're north of about Manchester, the chance of it hitting habitation gets relatively low, and it was very very bad luck that it actually hit an inhabited area.

I wonder if the timing system actually malfunctioned? They didn't find much of it, so I'm not sure they'd have been able to tell. And I still don't follow the need for the pressure trigger.

I'm guessing, but would the Outer Hebrides/Newfoundland window be about three hours? Four? How many planes are more than a couple of hours late? If you can be certain that you're going to get the bag on one particular flight, then surely there's no need for any pressure sensor at all? Just set the timer for half an hour before Newfoundland, and wait.

The pressure sensor would suggest either obsessive determination that nothing should go wrong, even if the plane was several hours late - in which case, why not start the timer with the Heathrow takeoff rather than Frankfurt, or some doubt about which flight the bag would actually go on.

The obsessive determination seems unlikely, given the setup, and the doubts about the flight - well, they never found out how the bag got on the plane anyway, so I suppose that's probably it. The whole thing set up ready to go, ready to enter the system at a moment's notice as soon as the opportunity came up.

Alternatively, I suppose, the cassette plater or even the bag, might have been given to some innocent courier whose exact flight wasn't known. Though if the whole case was packed by the bombers, as was alleged, again that seems unlikely.

I see the timer was part of the murky evidence that was set to go to appeal if Megrahi hadn't withdrawn that.

I'd just like to get my head round what's known and what's possible and what's fabrication and what's wild speculation on this affair. That's why I started the thread. Given the plausible and widely-credited nature of this CT, I imagined it would have been looked at in the context of 9/11. Given the amount of skullduggery alleged to have been perpetrated by the US government in connection with the affair, I thought I'd find CTers asserting that if the NWO could do that, it could do so much more in 2001. And then I'd be able to find some debunking. But no.

Looks like I have to do this the hard way, if I'm interested.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 11:36 AM   #112
Aidoneus
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 166
Originally Posted by bill smith View Post
Given that he has been under the 24-hour direct care of the British authorities for many many years I am saying that prostate cancer- probably he most recognisable of cancers should have been diagnosed years ago. I am not askng your opinion on this- it is completely self evident.
Prostate cancer incidentally develops slowly over many years and is not to be confused with cancers that develop more quickly.
Diagnosed rather like this, you mean?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...nd/7681387.stm
Aidoneus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:47 PM   #113
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Why have they put a picture of Gadaffi with that story?

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:58 PM   #114
Myron Proudfoot
Master Poster
 
Myron Proudfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Northern VA/DC
Posts: 2,361
Talking

Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
As I said, this is from memory, but the CT wasn't 'CIA miraculously appear 5 minutes after plane crash', more that while the police were searching the next day or so other people without clear identification were seen ambling about taking away suitcases and not being stopped by the D&G plods. Personally I think this is nonsense, but it's not as far fetched as gtcs version, which is all I was trying to counter.

The main CT I think is plausible is that the organisations being blamed for it were the ones that it was politically convenient for the UK/US government to blame, not necessarily the ones that the evidence pointed to.
Hmm, anybody see a 1960-ish blue police box in the area???
__________________
InfoWars. Punching logic in the face on a daily basis. (from Facebook)
Myron Proudfoot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:07 PM   #115
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,185
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
One argument against this is that Margaret Thatcher apparently didn't believe that Libya was responsible for Lockerbie, stating in her memoires that these bombings were so successful that Libya was never able to retaliate.
Thatcher trying to put the best posible spin on the outcome of militry action even when such a claim conflicts with reality (consider arms Libya supplied to the IRA) is normal behaviour. It doesn't mean much.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:51 PM   #116
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Good point. That woman was only tenuously connected to reality a lot of the time. It's still a bit of a howler though. It's been suggested the spooks who were vetting the book missed it.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2009, 02:53 AM   #117
8den
Graduate Poster
 
8den's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,293
I can't believe the temerity of the American Right, complaining about this release. McAskill is a perfect place to ask pointed questions about Guantanamo; torture; rendition; failure to acknowledge international law and all the other stuff Americans are doing.
__________________
If every trace of any single religion were wiped out again and nothing was passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again.
If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it out again."
- Penn Jillette in God, No!
8den is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2009, 09:05 AM   #118
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Well, it seems like a logical response from a country that kidnaps terrorist suspects and keeps them locked up in questionable conditions, to object when another country behaves differently....

Well, that's really for the Politics thread.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2009, 09:27 AM   #119
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 40,993
Back on the CT, the main question coming uppermost in my mind is whether there has ever been an actual conspiracy, even if we assume Megrahi is innocent.

Some fairly heavy circumstantial evidence pointed to the Palestinians. (Working for money on behalf of Iran, as I most often encounter it, though others say Syria.) However, no actual evidence was presented to incriminate the Palestinian group, and the focus of investigation shifted to Libya.

There have been suggestions that evidence of Palestinian involvement was deliberately suppressed, allegedly to prevent the chain leading to Iran, because Bush senior wanted Iran onside at the time one the first Gulf War which was happening at that time. And that Libya was a much more convenient scapegoat.

However, I've mentioned the Barry George case in this context before. Jill Dando's murderer left virtually no clues at all. It was an extraordinarily slick operation. There were suspicions relating to some sort of Serbian reprisal for her support of Kosovo (or something like that), but no evidence was found. Police then turned to George, who was a complete inadequate who had been nearby and had been acting strangely. And they fitted him up, basically by massively exaggerating the significance of things which had nothing to do with the murder. The motive for this was simply that they felt they had to get someone for this high profile murder, and George was the best they could come up with. It took two appeals before he was released.

And then there was the Damilola Taylor murder. The first set of accused were again essentially fitted up by police desperate to get a conviction. The evidence was rightly thrown out by the jury, because the alibi was sound. That didn't stop the red-top press screaming for their blood, and asserting that the acquittal was a disgrace. Fortunately a re-examine of the forensics turned up the real culprits.

I wonder if the "conspiracy" here might be as simple as these. The real bombers (possibly the Palestinians) covered their tracks extremely well, and investigators were getting nowhere trying to construct a case. Meanwhile there were 270 dead people, and a lot of heavy public pressure to pin it on someone. Oh, here's these Libyan guys who were there or thereabouts at the right time....

Then the system goes into action, and the USA offers $4 million to one witness if they give evidence that leads to a conviction, and $2 million to another (and $1 million to his brother). So then that second witness, who is "an apple short of a picnic" anyway, somehow manages to decide that the person he saw wasn't over 6 feet tall and in his fifties after all, but was Megrahi (5' 8" and 36), and actually it was definitely 7th December, because that's the date that will get me untold wealth....

And there you are. Not clean, but not anything out of the ordinary

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2009, 09:28 AM   #120
St.Michael
Scholar
 
St.Michael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 117
Im not sure if this is the right forum or thread to post this, but one of the most annoying things I find about CT people is the disservice they do when cases like this come up.
Lockerbie is a tragedy with so many unanswered questions surrounding it and the subsequent trial. Anyone investigating them is labelled a CT and get tarred with the same brush as those with outlandish ideas of faked moon landings, UFO conspiracies or Obamas birth certificate.


One of the most nagging questions I have about Lockerbie is in regards to the break in at the Pan-Am loading area in Heathrow airport on the morning of the bombing.
St.Michael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:33 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.