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Old 25th February 2018, 09:49 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Erm.... you're doing some rather unfortunate conflating here, coupled with a fundamental misunderstanding/ignorance of the underlying facts and context.

There is a geographical area in Jerusalem which is known as the Temple Mount.

Its first religious incarnation was as the site of the Jewish Temple (well, there were chronologically two main Temples in fact), which was the holiest place in Judaism.

But the Second Temple was destroyed by the Romans in the first century CE.

The Jewish faith still holds the site of the Temple (i.e. Temple Mount) as its holiest site, on account of it having been the site of the Temple. One of the only remaining structures from the Second Temple, the Western Wall (which was not actually one of the walls of the Temple itself, but was the outer retaining wall of the Temple complex) is presently the focus of holy reverence by Jews, since a) none of the Temple itself remains, and b) even though the Temple Mount (which lies beyond and above the Western Wall) is still the holiest place for Jews, they are forbidden from praying or otherwise observing their faith there.

And here's where it gets a little complicated. The absolute epicentre of holiness for Jews on the Temple Mount is the so-called "Foundation Stone", which is said to be the site of the inner tabernacle containing the Ark of the Covenant. And it's believed that this Foundation Stone sits at the heart of the Dome of the Rock, which was built by Muslims. So - critically - Jews do not revere the Dome of the Rock itself. Rather, they revere the Foundation Stone of the Temple, which happens to be sited within the Dome of the Rock (which was built over the Foundation Stone by Muslims).



On to Islam.

Muslims have built two separate major structures on the geographical site known as the Temple Mount.

One is the Dome of the Rock (the one with the golden dome), which is believed by Muslims to contain the rock from which Muhammad ascended to Heaven.

The other is the Al-Aqsa Mosque. It is a totally separate building from the Dome of the Rock. On those postcards showing the shiny gold dome of the Dome of the Rock taken from the Mount of Olives, the Al-Aqsa Mosque can usually also be seen at the other end of the Temple Mount with its grey dome. Muslims believe that this mosque marks the spot where Muhammad had his night journey on his horse.

And it's the Al-Aqsa Mosque - NOT the Dome of the Rock - which is the focus of reverence for Muslims (it's the third most holy site in Islam, behind Mecca and Medina).



Lastly, Christianity.

Nowhere on the Temple Mount - least of all the Dome of the Rock - has ever been a particular holy site for Christians. The only notable connection it has with Christianity is from the New Testament account of Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers outside the Temple. And that's it.

Clearly the holiest site for Christians in Jerusalem is the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is said to contain both the site of Jesus' crucifixion and the site of the tomb from which he resurrected. And the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is in an entirely separate area of Jerusalem from the Temple Mount - it's probably a good 500-750m away.

In summary: Christianity does not revere the Temple Mount or any structure erected upon it - especially not the Muslim Dome of the Rock.
Thank you for the correct, thorough and scholarly explanation.

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Old 25th February 2018, 09:53 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Your "guide"? You allow some entity to tell you what to think?
I can respect someone's professional knowledge. Tour guides in these expensive packages are expected to demonstrate a good knowledge of history and geography. I knew he was incredibly erudite just by talking to him.

Guides at museums, houses, House of Commons and art galleries have been a mine of information for me, most of whom are volunteers and history/art enthusiasts.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:17 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...

Our species used to be animals scavenging for food to survive. Now we are developed.
It may not be that simple.

Quote:
Why would evolution give us the knowledge of 'good' and 'bad' unless it serves a purpose. We could have just carried on using our basic instincts.
There is no agency in evolution as a natural process and 'good' and 'bad' is not knowledge per se. Rather it is a result of a natural process and only is there because of the result of the replication of the fittest genes. We serve no purpose and is not the result of something given to us by evolution. You anthropomorphize.
Do ask why, ask how - how does evolution work as a natural process and the same with "good" and "bad"?
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:32 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Thank you for the correct, thorough and scholarly explanation.

<snip annoying graphic>
Thank you for admitting that I was talking about the 'rock' itself.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:33 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why would evolution give us the knowledge of 'good' and 'bad' unless it serves a purpose. We could have just carried on using our basic instincts.
Evolution did not give us knowledge of 'good' and 'bad'. You seem to be pathologically obsessed with agency.

Let me guess, you also believe that humans are the pinnacle of creation or some similar rubbish


It's rather simple: "Good" and "Bad" (also every religion) is an invention of humans.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:36 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
It may not be that simple.



There is no agency in evolution as a natural process and 'good' and 'bad' is not knowledge per se. Rather it is a result of a natural process and only is there because of the result of the replication of the fittest genes. We serve no purpose and is not the result of something given to us by evolution. You anthropomorphize.
Do ask why, ask how - how does evolution work as a natural process and the same with "good" and "bad"?
The concepts of 'good' and 'bad' are core topics of interest to the highest minded of philosophers (Plato, Heidegger, Murdoch) to the extent of being university disciplines (you can take an Applied M.Phil in the philosophy of 'virtue' at Edinburgh Uni, for example), so it is self-evident it is a higher concept and not a base one.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:38 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Evolution did not give us knowledge of 'good' and 'bad'. You seem to be pathologically obsessed with agency.

Let me guess, you also believe that humans are the pinnacle of creation or some similar rubbish


It's rather simple: "Good" and "Bad" (also every religion) is an invention of humans.
They are not...?
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:38 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Evolution did not give us knowledge of 'good' and 'bad'. You seem to be pathologically obsessed with agency.

Let me guess, you also believe that humans are the pinnacle of creation or some similar rubbish


It's rather simple: "Good" and "Bad" (also every religion) is an invention of humans.
"Good" and "Bad" are emergent properties in human behavior as a result of evolution. But they are subjective and inter-subjective as they can be shared among humans. Thus there are no objective "good" and "bad", but they are still natural and real. Just subjective as they are a result of the replication of the fittest genes.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:39 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Thank you for admitting that I was talking about the 'rock' itself.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:40 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
T so it is self-evident it is a higher concept and not a base one.
Yep, invented by human beings, nonexistent before humans existed.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
They are not...?
Ok, I guessed wrong.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:42 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by StackOverflow View Post
Yep, invented by human beings, nonexistent before humans existed.




Ok, I guessed wrong.
Non-existent in humans >10K years ago.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:43 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The concepts of 'good' and 'bad' are core topics of interest to the highest minded of philosophers (Plato, Heidegger, Murdoch) to the extent of being university disciplines (you can take an Applied Msc in the philosophy of 'virtue' at Edinburgh Uni, for example), so it is self-evident it is a higher concept and not a base one.
Don't do philosophy with a philosopher unless you know your history of philosophy and know that "virtue" is not the only contender for good and bad.
So if you want to do this, start a thread proper about morality and ethics within philosophy.
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Old 25th February 2018, 10:51 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Don't do philosophy with a philosopher unless you know your history of philosophy and know that "virtue" is not the only contender for good and bad.
So if you want to do this, start a thread proper about morality and ethics within philosophy.
Maybe not, but 'virtue' is a key founding stone(cf St Augustine, Plato).
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Old 25th February 2018, 11:15 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ah, but is it a threat or a fact?
Prove that it is a fact. I see no evidence it is a fact. None.


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Imagine you are walking along a beach and you come to a small promontary, as happened to me on a beach in Kent, and a sign says, 'DANGER, high tide comes in rapidly at this point, please use steps, or you may be cut off or swept out to sea, should this happen'.

It was a nice day, so felt safe to carry on strolling. Suddenly there was a rapid swirl of sea water around our knees and the beach on the other side a long way off. On that occasion, we escaped being swept away. At the next similar sign, as you can guess, I avoided the danger.
But what if you're not on a beach? What if there is no ocean as far as you can see and you can see for hundreds of miles? Should you really worry about this sign warning of an imaginary tide?


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Likewise if say you die and discover there is a meaning to having lived after all, wouldn't you want to go back and warn everybody you know to 'avoid damnation or complete extinguishment', because, hey good news, it is really heavenly on the other side just so long as you are not one of the scum that makes life horrible for other people.

So, the message is good news to those who have chosen to lead decent lives, not a 'threat'. It's only a threat if you are a twisted vicious individual who lays in wait to rob, assault, rape or murder innocent men, women and children, or plant bombs, or carry out mass murders at high schools. Do you really want to share the same space as such persons?

Fact is, civilised people have the choice of good or evil, it is not as if we are animals who do not know right from wrong.

Our species used to be animals scavenging for food to survive. Now we are developed.

Why would evolution give us the knowledge of 'good' and 'bad' unless it serves a purpose. We could have just carried on using our basic instincts.
No, it's a threat. Telling children that they will burn in hell if they don't believe the absurdly ridiculous is disgusting. Telling gays that they are depraved and will burn in hell if they don't change their ways is disgusting. Telling wives to obey their husbands and telling slaves to obey their masters is disgusting. Telling followers to slay those who refuse Jesus's reign is disgusting.

BTW, the promise of salvation doesn't reward good behavior, but credulity. You can live the most moral life imaginable and disbelieve in God and according to Christian doctrine face an eternity in hell and you can be Gary Ridgeway and murder 48 women and before dying accept JC as your savior and receive eternal life.

You see it's really a test of how gullible people are.

Also evolution could care less about 'good and bad. Those are personal subjective terms. Evolution is about the change of a population of organisms to best suit the environments they face.

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Old 25th February 2018, 11:16 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Maybe not, but 'virtue' is a key founding stone(cf St Augustine, Plato).
No, it is one among many.
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Old 25th February 2018, 01:49 PM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thor 2
I've been presented with the idea, by members of the faithful, that God was only concerned about man once he became equiped with a soul. So the indifference of God, to early evolving man is dealt with.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Then Hitchens' argument is irrelevant, as he very specifically talks about the time before the stories in the Bible as being when God ignored humanity.

.......

More drivel.

.........

.
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Koo Koo for Coco Puffs indeed.

You try so hard and deliberately mis-represent that which is written by me so you can keep up this non comprehending ruse.

I was talking about the defence presented by some believers. Did you notice the * thingy?

This in no way negates Hitchens argument - but I'm sure you know that already.
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Why on Earth would I do that? But if you're so sure you can have knowledge of what's going on inside my head, I know a bloke who's got a million dollars he'll give you.



Obviously. Nothing I've said has contradicted that.



I didn't claim anything negated Hitchens' argument. I said that your argument and his are not the same ........

..... more of the same ......
Now you seem to have trouble comprehending what you said yourself.
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Old 25th February 2018, 02:23 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Now you seem to have trouble comprehending what you said yourself.
Saying that Hitchens' argument is irrelevant to this thread is in no way an attempt to negate Hitchens' argument. Instead, it is saying that it is irrelevant to this thread.
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Old 26th February 2018, 03:04 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Pecking at dead bodies doesn't really indicate the bird or animal is aware of its own imminent death or even gives it any thought. Dancing at the foot of a waterfall indicates an ability to feel joie de vivre - anyone with pets knows this already without having to journey to deepest Africa - but again doesn't really indicate an ability to perceive a 'higher power' as it were.

Being sentient, and some believe even plants are, doesn't prove an awareness of 'God'.
Next time, read the actual articles, properly,

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First, animal responses to death show striking similarities to how humans religiously respond to death. For instance, magpies, gorillas, elephants, llamas, foxes, and wolves all use ritual to cope with the death of a companion. Magpies will peck the dead body and then lay blades of grass next to it. Gorillas hold something so similar to a “wake” that many zoos have formalized the ritual. Elephants hold large “funeral” gatherings and treat the bones of their deceased with great respect. Llamas utilize stillness to mourn for their dead. Foxes bury their dead completely, as do wolves, who, if they lose a mate, will often go without sex and seek solitude. In all of these cases, the animals rely on ritual to ease the pain of death. Even if one will not grant their rituals the title “religious,” at the very least the overlap between animal and human death rituals stands out as striking.
If I was to observe a mass, would I see evidence of a 'higher power', or would I see people eating little pieces of bread and singing? If I went to a funeral, would I see evidence of a 'higher power', or any evidence that the mourners were aware of their own imminent deaths? Does a rain dance done by Native Americans differ in any significant way from one done by chimps? Try to imagine what religious rituals look like from an anthropological viewpoint, and then compare them to what the animals described in the links are doing. I personally see very little difference.
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Old 26th February 2018, 07:12 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
And MANY other places on earth are said to be mystical/spiritual, by non-Abrahamic religions.
The Grand Canyon. I saw just a few of the tourist spots on the edge when I was a kid. It's a breathtaking place that shows humanity's tiny place in the epic scope of the Earth's grandeur. It was here before us and will be here after us. I've never felt awe or glory in a religious building that came anywhere near close to the grandeur of the Grand Canyon.

The closest I've come since was Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico. The "Cathedral" there boggles the mind and enraptures the soul.

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Old 26th February 2018, 10:35 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
The Grand Canyon. I saw just a few of the tourist spots on the edge when I was a kid. It's a breathtaking place that shows humanity's tiny place in the epic scope of the Earth's grandeur. It was here before us and will be here after us. I've never felt awe or glory in a religious building that came anywhere near close to the grandeur of the Grand Canyon.

The closest I've come since was Carlsbad Caverns in New Mexico. The "Cathedral" there boggles the mind and enraptures the soul.
Interesting, I've done a lot of hiking. In the Redwood forests, Yosemite, Glacier, Yellowstone, the North Cascades, the Olympic National Parks and many others and religious people inevitably assign pretty much all wonders to God. I don't agree with their assessments but I understand the awe. I must also admit a certain amount of awe when I have visited some religious buildings such as the Sistine Chapel, the Dome in Florence, the Pantheon or the Parthenon. I see the assignment that 'god did it' to be arbitrary nonsense without a shred of proof. But we do know who created those great buildings, men.
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Old 26th February 2018, 02:04 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post

And MANY other places on earth are said to be mystical/spiritual, by non-Abrahamic religions.
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
The Grand Canyon. I saw just a few of the tourist spots on the edge when I was a kid. It's a breathtaking place that shows humanity's tiny place in the epic scope of the Earth's grandeur. It was here before us and will be here after us. I've never felt awe or glory in a religious building that came anywhere near close to the grandeur of the Grand Canyon.

I would suggest the mystical and spiritualness of a place depends largely on the mind of the beholder.

Ayes Rock in Australia is a spiritual place for some aboriginal tribes who call it Uluru, but although I am somewhat awed by its size and majesty, don't feel any sense of the spiritual in it's presence.

I first visited Ayes Rock many years ago. I was in a bus with some American tourists and one guy made the comment - "If you put this rock at the bottom of The Grand Canyon you wouldn't see it." ...... What do you say in response to such a statement?

I climbed the rock at the time - the American guy didn't - a great experience. As the rock is regarded as a spiritual place by the aboriginal tribes, climbing it has been discouraged for some time and now illegal. We have to respect the beliefs of these people we are told.
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Old 26th February 2018, 02:32 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

I first visited Ayes Rock many years ago. I was in a bus with some American tourists and one guy made the comment - "If you put this rock at the bottom of The Grand Canyon you wouldn't see it." ...... What do you say in response to such a statement?

I climbed the rock at the time - the American guy didn't - a great experience. As the rock is regarded as a spiritual place by the aboriginal tribes, climbing it has been discouraged for some time and now illegal. We have to respect the beliefs of these people we are told.
I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not far off. The Grand Canyon is amazing. Standing on that rim and seeing the monstrous chasm. There is nothing quite like it. I've hiked down into it which most people don't do. My best friend spent a year hiking all over Australia and he said there really wasn't anything that special about the rock except how odd it is in that location. He said the beaches there are amazing, loved Perth and Adelaide and was amazed by the size of the crocs up in the North. He said to me in his view New Zealand was prettier.

But hey, I've never been to either. He also said, he loved the beer down there.
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Old 26th February 2018, 02:51 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but it's not far off. The Grand Canyon is amazing. Standing on that rim and seeing the monstrous chasm. There is nothing quite like it. I've hiked down into it which most people don't do. My best friend spent a year hiking all over Australia and he said there really wasn't anything that special about the rock except how odd it is in that location. He said the beaches there are amazing, loved Perth and Adelaide and was amazed by the size of the crocs up in the North. He said to me in his view New Zealand was prettier.

But hey, I've never been to either. He also said, he loved the beer down there.

Yes of course we have Noah's flood to thank for the Grand Canyon.

I lived in Cairns (North Queensland) for the largest chunk of my life, and at one time had a workshop on the bank of Smiths Creek. We could often see crocs sunning themselves on the opposite bank.
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Old 26th February 2018, 03:35 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes of course we have Noah's flood to thank for the Grand Canyon.

I lived in Cairns (North Queensland) for the largest chunk of my life, and at one time had a workshop on the bank of Smiths Creek. We could often see crocs sunning themselves on the opposite bank.
My buddy was warned about not getting too close to the water because of the crocs and he said he didn't realize how close he came to one until he came home and looking at the pics noticed one barely under the water next to bank within a few feet of where he had been standing
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Old 26th February 2018, 06:20 PM   #385
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Old 27th February 2018, 05:47 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ah, but is it a threat or a fact?

Imagine you are walking along a beach and you come to a small promontary, as happened to me on a beach in Kent, and a sign says, 'DANGER, high tide comes in rapidly at this point, please use steps, or you may be cut off or swept out to sea, should this happen'.
If God isn't omnipotent and not the creator, and therefore has to obey the rules of the Universe, then it might just be a helpful warning, as you claim.

But since God is claimed to have created everything and remains in complete control over every facet of existence, it's clearly a threat. He's chosen to torture people who disobey.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Thank you for admitting that I was talking about the 'rock' itself.
'The Rock' is not the Temple Mount. Nor is it Dwayne Johnson in this case...
Just keep denying you were wrong, and keep digging that hole.
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Old 27th February 2018, 01:24 PM   #387
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Ah, but is it a threat or a fact?

.......

So, the message is good news to those who have chosen to lead decent lives, not a 'threat'. It's only a threat if you are a twisted vicious individual who lays in wait to rob, assault, rape or murder innocent men, women and children, or plant bombs, or carry out mass murders at high schools. Do you really want to share the same space as such persons?

........

Where do you get these blasphemous ideas from Vixen. The God of the Bible is cool with guys murdering men,women, and children and even orders them to do so. The only thing that really gets up His nose is if you don't believe in Him.

This stuff about only nasty people being punished by going to a bad place after death is made up by yourself. You should write a "Book of Vixen".
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Old 26th March 2018, 06:53 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think Christopher Hitchens said it best in one, maybe two, of his presentations, where he mimicked God with arms folded, as he looked down on mankind and did nothing, whilst we struggled on in our primitive fashion, with no guidance or moral compass. I have yet to hear anything approaching a clear explanation of this from any apologist from any of the three Abrahamic God religions.

Now the period of time that God ignored his creations has become dramatically longer:




Now this is in Israel no less - a place that has a special place in God's mind.
Christopher Hitchens.. Didn't he die of cancer or something? He used to insult god right? You know what it is... I will tell you.. People seem to think/made up that god would be helping them or something with a bunch of things? But, how does that fit the message in religious texts? It states, people have free will. They were also given guidelines what not to do right? There was also a warning of judgement day and the apocalypse right? So, god, just lets people do their thing. Free will. All the suffering on this planet is of mans own creation. God has nothing to do with that. But, is most of what people do to each other, in that fashion, against the guidelines given to people? It is? How do you think those people will be judged then? God did not ignore its creation. It let a lot of it hang themselves by not following his guidelines. And that is the correct explanation of this situation.
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Old 26th March 2018, 07:14 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by Logan38 View Post
All the suffering on this planet is of mans own creation.
Man created diseases, earthquakes and tsunamis? News to me.
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Old 26th March 2018, 01:41 PM   #390
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by Logan38 View Post
Christopher Hitchens.. Didn't he die of cancer or something? He used to insult god right? You know what it is... I will tell you.. People seem to think/made up that god would be helping them or something with a bunch of things? But, how does that fit the message in religious texts? It states, people have free will. They were also given guidelines what not to do right? There was also a warning of judgement day and the apocalypse right? So, god, just lets people do their thing. Free will. All the suffering on this planet is of mans own creation. God has nothing to do with that. But, is most of what people do to each other, in that fashion, against the guidelines given to people? It is? How do you think those people will be judged then? God did not ignore its creation. It let a lot of it hang themselves by not following his guidelines. And that is the correct explanation of this situation.

Christopher Hitchens didn't believe in any gods. Are you trying to make some connection between his cancer and god insulting? Not original. I had a brother who died of cancer at a similar age to Hitch and he was a born again Christian.

You obviously have not had a good look at what the thread is about. God, (the Abrahamic one), was not forthcoming with the "guidelines" you talk about for a long long time. God, according to the Christian idea, did not provide a means for man to find salvation, (sacrificing himself to himself), for much less time. Something like one hundredth of the time modern man has been around.

In addition to the above the Abrahamic god has done all kinds of vile things to man. I'ts all there in the Bible ..... you should read it sometime.
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Old 26th March 2018, 01:46 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Man created diseases, earthquakes and tsunamis? News to me.

I think I can answer this for Logan.

It's all because man turned out to be less than perfect, (even though god made him so), when he disobeyed god with the apple thing. There were no diseases, earthquakes and tsunamis in The Garden of Eden.
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Old 26th March 2018, 02:00 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Logan38 View Post
Christopher Hitchens.. Didn't he die of cancer or something? He used to insult god right?
Fred Rogers also died of cancer. Stomach cancer specifically. What's your point?
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