IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 2nd December 2021, 03:37 AM   #41
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Because giving teachers guns on the classroom will result in:

Accidental shootings.

Stolen guns.

Teachers making bad judgements in tense situations, and firing guns when no guns ought to be fired.

Teachers making bad judgements in high pressure situations, and shooting the wrong people.

Fights that escalate to deadly force.

Shootings done in self defense where the self defense claim is based on the fear that an attacker will take the gun.

And, since teachers are not immune from mental illness, anger, stress induced breakdowns, and all the other things that cause people to snap, there will be an occasional murder.
All very good points. How do you feel about armed security officers? Because, the guns aren't going away anytime soon.

Don't some schools have metal detectors, at least? Keeping them off campus would obviously be the favored way to engineer the problem out.
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard

Last edited by Warp12; 2nd December 2021 at 03:38 AM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 03:40 AM   #42
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,978
Guns could go away quick if we wanted.
Until then, the answer can't be "more guns".
The number of privately owned guns has skyrocketed in recent years, and, surprise surprise, it hasn't stopped mass shootings.
__________________
"Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food."

- Robert M. Pirsig
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 03:42 AM   #43
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Guns could go away quick if we wanted.
Until then, the answer can't be "more guns".
The number of privately owned guns has skyrocketed in recent years, and, surprise surprise, it hasn't stopped mass shootings.
I don't see how this happens in the current political climate. And I don't see that changing for a long, long time.
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 04:15 AM   #44
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,978
Then just demand that people have insurance for their guns, just like you would for a car.
__________________
"Metaphysics is a restaurant where they give you a thirty thousand page menu, and no food."

- Robert M. Pirsig
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 04:19 AM   #45
Ian Osborne
JREF Kid
Tagger
 
Ian Osborne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,445
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't see how this happens in the current political climate. And I don't see that changing for a long, long time.
And that's why every year, more children will die.
__________________
"Faith without doubt leads to moral arrogance, the eternal pratfall of the religiously convinced" - Joe Klein, Time magazine

"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." - Carl Sagan
Ian Osborne is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 04:32 AM   #46
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
And that's why every year, more children will die.
School mass shootings are not really even on the radar as far as gun deaths. I mean, they are a hot topic in the media, sure. But in the grand scheme, small potatoes. People hardly make an issue out of gun deaths in urban environments, compared to something like this. And those killings are daily.
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 04:35 AM   #47
Disbelief
Master Poster
 
Disbelief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,980
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
All very good points. How do you feel about armed security officers? Because, the guns aren't going away anytime soon.

Don't some schools have metal detectors, at least? Keeping them off campus would obviously be the favored way to engineer the problem out.
Sure, some schools have metal detectors but is that really the answer? A school with 1800 students trying to get in every morning, and you have to basically hand scan everyone. Almost every kid will have some type of metal on them every morning.

As for the armed security, they had security at the school. That's one of the reasons he was stopped within 5 minutes, but it was already too late.
__________________
Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same?

Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman
Disbelief is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 04:41 AM   #48
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Sure, some schools have metal detectors but is that really the answer? A school with 1800 students trying to get in every morning, and you have to basically hand scan everyone. Almost every kid will have some type of metal on them every morning.

As for the armed security, they had security at the school. That's one of the reasons he was stopped within 5 minutes, but it was already too late.
I think there are plenty of "is that the answer" debates to be had. But you have to look at the reality of the situation, and do something that can realistically be implemented. Guns are not going away in the near future. That is just a pipe dream.
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 04:57 AM   #49
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 39,329
It's too late to do anything. There are too many guns in circulation to do anything about it.
America is willing to have these periodic child sacrifices in order to keep their guns.
We all know what the answer is but it will never happen.
Captain_Swoop is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 05:30 AM   #50
Tero
Master Poster
 
Tero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: North American prairie
Posts: 2,434
Onion fails to run the story. There were already 4 mass shootings in 2021. Links here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27No_...ularly_Happens
__________________
The republicans are here to save us from government/socialism. Which would like to give us healthcare. But that would make us weak. And generate a lot of old people.

Politics blog: https://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
Parody: http://karireport.blogspot.com/
Poll: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...proval-rating/
Tero is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 06:51 AM   #51
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,572
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Yeah there's no way in hell that'd happen here.

There was an episode of a TV show in the 70s in which a man was portrayed as being somewhat nuts because he had handguns concealed in every room of his house so he would always be able to defend himself. This included a gun in his shower ("Didn't you ever see "Psycho"?")
Attitudes like that seem to be outliers less and less. I've overheard people talk about needing to be able to defend themselves if gang members with automatic weapons suddenly break down their front door. You can't do that if your gun is safely secured.
Armitage72 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 07:55 AM   #52
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 11,738
I was...debating someone on Facebook about gun culture a few years back. I mentioned that I've never fired a gun, and I don't own one. He basically called me crazy. He was shocked I would advertise to the world that I was unarmed. Here I am, a few years later, still no one has broken into my house. Hell, I don't even lock my doors.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 07:59 AM   #53
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 33,192
Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
There was an episode of a TV show in the 70s in which a man was portrayed as being somewhat nuts because he had handguns concealed in every room of his house so he would always be able to defend himself. This included a gun in his shower ("Didn't you ever see "Psycho"?")
Attitudes like that seem to be outliers less and less. I've overheard people talk about needing to be able to defend themselves if gang members with automatic weapons suddenly break down their front door. You can't do that if your gun is safely secured.
Someone far more knowledgeable than I expressed the opinion that if you are worried about (the minuscule risk of) a home invasion then you'd be better off investing in more robust doors than self defence guns on the grounds the doors would be more effective and the risk of suicide, self injury or accidentally injuring others would be significantly lower than if guns are strewn around the house.

Of course passive defence like that isn't "sexy" and doesn't allow the homeowner to fantasise about being the hero, saving their family, in a home invasion scenario.

Then again firing on a gang of home invaders armed with automatic weapons may have unintended negative consequences if your aim isn't as good as you thought and/or you're overwhelmed by numbers.

Both my late uncle and my current B-I-L ascribed/ascribe to the "unsecured guns all over the house just in case" school of home defence. We used to stay with my uncle for weeks at a time and it was quite harrowing on occasions when he thought he heard a home invader in the middle of the night (there never was one) and walked around his house alarmed and half-asleep looking for movement in the shadows.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 08:10 AM   #54
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's too late to do anything. There are too many guns in circulation to do anything about it.
America is willing to have these periodic child sacrifices in order to keep their guns.
We all know what the answer is but it will never happen.
As I say, these "child sacrifices" are hardly of any concern in the grand scheme. That is just what gets the most press. If it were only these types of school shootings, we wouldn't have much of an issue to address.

While the guns aren't going away, there are probably some changes that could happen. I am surprised that their aren't more gun "buy back" type efforts. I think there should be stiffer penalties for gun crimes and accomplices (such as the parents here, imo). Required training for ownership, and a better vetting process. These things at least have some possibility of becoming reality.

But, banning guns? Not happening.
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 08:41 AM   #55
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
All very good points. How do you feel about armed security officers? Because, the guns aren't going away anytime soon.

Don't some schools have metal detectors, at least? Keeping them off campus would obviously be the favored way to engineer the problem out.
I'm not crazy about armed security officers, but at least with armed security officers, you have people who are trained in a meaningful manner and whose whole job, and probably whole career, is related to knowing how and when to use a gun and, even more importantly, when not to use a gun.


That doesn't mean they always get it right,which is why we end up with high profile trials and lawsuits when the cops kill someone who really should not have been killed.

The School Resource Officers have full police training. Private security guards vary, I'm sure, but they probably have some pretty extensive training before carrying a gun. Armed teachers would probably be required to pass an 8 hour gun safety class, and their real job is to teach. I don't see any reason to believe that someone who chose to spend her life teaching history would be very good at knowing when and how to use a gun.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 08:46 AM   #56
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,572
Three children being killed was sufficient for the sale of lawn darts to be banned in the US. I guess we're lucky that they were thrown instead of being launched from a gun.
Armitage72 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 08:50 AM   #57
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
But, banning guns? Not happening.
No one is proposing that.

To be fair, some people would propose that if they thought it could happen. Heck, in some cities, those laws were actually passed. (See the Heller decision.) I can see a "slippery slope" argument that if you start by banning handguns with 15 shot quick change magazines, they'll want to move on to any handguns, but at least at the moment, that's not on the table, and the Supreme Court says it will take a constitutional amendment to put it on the table.

For me, I would make it difficult to purchase the sort of gun used at Oxford High School, require significant restrictions on how they are stored, and make it darned near impossible to legally carry except to and from a gun range in a locked container in the trunk.

A lot of people will say the "carry" aspect wouldn't have made any difference in this case. It was already illegal for the kid to carry a gun, so it doesn't matter. However, that overlooks something. I'll bet we'll find that the elder Mr. Crumbley had a concealed carry permit and intended to carry that gun. If he hadn't been allowed to get that permit, he might not have bought the gun, and left it where his kid could take it.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 2nd December 2021 at 08:57 AM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 08:52 AM   #58
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Quote:
"We have had the opportunity to view the video and what is depicted on that video - I don't have the words," Oakland County Assistant Prosecutor Marc Keast said Wednesday.

Keast watched the footage in preparation for 15-year-old suspect Ethan Crumbley’s first court appearance on Wednesday. He was hit with 24 charges, which include four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder, one count of terrorism, and 12 counts of possession of a firearm.

His attorney entered a not guilty plea.
Of course there is a not guilty plea, as to be expected.

But, damn if this doesn't kind of make me wish this kid could be executed NOW. Just thinking of the trial, the costs, taxpayers footing his bill for life...and the suffering of the families and victims. It isn't like there is any chance he didn't kill those people in a premeditated fashion.

What a waste of a human.
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 08:58 AM   #59
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
A lot of people will say the "carry" aspect wouldn't have made any difference in this case. It was already illegal for the kid to carry a gun, so it doesn't matter. However, that overlooks something. I'll bet we'll find that the elder Mr. Crumbley had a concealed carry permit and intended to carry that gun. If he hadn't been allowed to get that permit, he might not have bought the gun, and left it where his kid could take it.
How about the parents also facing murder charges in cases like this?
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:08 AM   #60
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
How about the parents also facing murder charges in cases like this?
People think that increasing penalties is going to make a significant difference. However, its effect will be marginal. If a person is not intending to commit a crime, the penalty for that crime isn't a deterrent. The Crumbleys had no idea that their gun would be used to kill anyone. Charging them with murder wouldn't have any effect, because they couldn't imagine that happening anyway.

They should be held responsible for not keeping their gun locked up, but that's it. That should probably include being sued by the families for contributing to the wrongful death. So, they end up with possibly some jail time, at least a criminal record, bankrupt, a son rotting in jail for the rest of his life, and a guilty conscience knowing they enabled it. That seems enough in the way of punishment. More punishment wouldn't benefit anything, because the next yahoos that leave their guns accessible won't imagine that it will happen to them, either.


ETA: And, one more comment. They didn't murder anyone. I think only murderers should be charged with murder. What they (or one or the other) did was pretty bad, but it was negligience, not murder. There might conceivably be room for some variation of "felony murder", but I think that gets abused, and really shouldn't apply here. I don't know if Michigan has that sort of law or how widely applied it is.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 2nd December 2021 at 09:16 AM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:11 AM   #61
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 37,125
Every other comparable Western Style secular democracy has managed to figure out how to go more than "How long it takes to make good chili in the crockpot" timeframe without a school shooting so at this point the only logical explanation is we see them as a net positive.
__________________
"If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 2nd December 2021 at 09:13 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:12 AM   #62
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,850
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
People think that increasing penalties is going to make a significant difference. However, its effect will be marginal. If a person is not intending to commit a crime, the penalty for that crime isn't a deterrent. The Crumbleys had no idea that their gun would be used to kill anyone. Charging them with murder wouldn't have any effect, because they couldn't imagine that happening anyway.

They should be held responsible for not keeping their gun locked up, but that's it. That should probably include being sued by the families for contributing to the wrongful death. So, they end up with possibly some jail time, at least a criminal record, bankrupt, a son rotting in jail for the rest of his life, and a guilty conscience knowing they enabled it. That seems enough in the way of punishment. More punishment wouldn't benefit anything, because the next yahoos that leave their guns accessible won't imagine that it will happen to them, either.
I don't know about that. I mean, if law requires you take certain safety precautions or face extremely harsh penalties, I think that does matter. In this case the child also had known behavioral issues. The parents had just been at the school about it, and I am guessing not the first time, a few hours prior.

I don't see any reason for the parents not to face stiff criminal charges in these cases.They basically handed him the murder weapon, it would seem. Now, if the kid broke a lock or something to get to it, that would be a mitigating factor.
__________________
"A culture is only as great as its dreams, and its dreams are dreamed by artists." - L. Ron Hubbard

Last edited by Warp12; 2nd December 2021 at 09:16 AM.
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:19 AM   #63
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't see any reason for the parents not to face stiff criminal charges in these cases.They basically handed him the murder weapon, it would seem. Now, if the kid broke a lock or something to get to it, that would be a mitigating factor.
"Stiff criminal charges" don't bother me, but they didn't commit murder. (At least, with the conceivable exception of "felony murder", but see my previous ETA.)

If they broke the law, they should be punished, and based on the prosecutor's comments yesterday, I expect that they will be punished, but we will see more about what happened as time goes by.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:29 AM   #64
Disbelief
Master Poster
 
Disbelief's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,980
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
How about the parents also facing murder charges in cases like this?
The prosecutor is looking into manslaughter charges for them.
__________________
Zensmack (LastChild, Laughing Assassin, RazetheFlag, Wastrel, TruthbyDecree) - Working his way up the sock puppet chain, trying to overtake P'Doh. Or, are they the same?

Quote me where I said conspiracists use evidence. - mchapman
Disbelief is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:41 AM   #65
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Dozens of schools around metro Detroit are closed today due to an abundance of caution related to anything which could be interpreted as a threat.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:46 AM   #66
Mike!
Official Ponylandistanian National Treasure. Respect it!
 
Mike!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ponylandistan! Where the bacon grows on trees! Can it get any better than that? I submit it can not!
Posts: 43,922
If a gang goes into a bank to rob it, and one of them shoots and kills a teller, all of them are charged with murder, even the poor schlep that's sitting out in the get away car. I think this should apply to the parents in this case, if they were stupid enough to leave the weapon out where the kid could get to it.
__________________
"Never judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes...
Because then it won't really matter, you’ll be a mile away and have his shoes."
Mike! is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:49 AM   #67
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 11,738
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't know about that. I mean, if law requires you take certain safety precautions or face extremely harsh penalties, I think that does matter. In this case the child also had known behavioral issues. The parents had just been at the school about it, and I am guessing not the first time, a few hours prior.

I don't see any reason for the parents not to face stiff criminal charges in these cases.They basically handed him the murder weapon, it would seem. Now, if the kid broke a lock or something to get to it, that would be a mitigating factor.
I don't think the solution is to make any penalty more harsh. We have some fairly harsh penalties and still the highest incarceration rate in the world. It's obvious that these penalties aren't a significant deterrent.

I would assume there's a better way, but doing the same thing over and over is insane. That's exactly what we're doing as a country. School shooting, tots and pears, what a horrible tragedy, move on, school shooting, tots and pears, what a horrible tragedy, move on.

As others have said, this country is already comfortable sacrificing any number of people to have guns. Even warp12 said it, school shootings are but a drop in the ocean of US gun deaths. We just shrug it off and keep going. The US would rather have the corpses than be without guns.

It's the same thing as the "I'd rather 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be locked up" mantra. The US would rather have 30,000 dead bodies over 1 man not being able to have his pew pew to defend himself when the baddies come.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:52 AM   #68
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,909
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
If a gang goes into a bank to rob it, and one of them shoots and kills a teller, all of them are charged with murder, even the poor schlep that's sitting out in the get away car. I think this should apply to the parents in this case, if they were stupid enough to leave the weapon out where the kid could get to it.
First it would have to be something that was a felony for that to be legally valid, this isn't like adultery which is a felony in michigan.

And few states have such stringent mandatory securing of firearms.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:53 AM   #69
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
 
TragicMonkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 61,779
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
If a gang goes into a bank to rob it, and one of them shoots and kills a teller, all of them are charged with murder, even the poor schlep that's sitting out in the get away car.
And in some jurisdictions if the cops shoot at those robbers and kill an innocent bystander, the gang is then charged with that bystander's murder. Chains of causality are pursued in some matters but not others.
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara.
TragicMonkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 09:54 AM   #70
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
If a gang goes into a bank to rob it, and one of them shoots and kills a teller, all of them are charged with murder, even the poor schlep that's sitting out in the get away car. I think this should apply to the parents in this case, if they were stupid enough to leave the weapon out where the kid could get to it.
That's the "felony murder" we've heard so much about lately. I'm not sure it applies, because there has to be an intent to commit a crime, even if that crime isn't murder. However, I don't know Michigan law on the subject. It also might depend on exactly how the gun got into his hands. After reading mom's blog entries, I could imagine someone as dumb as her actually deliberately giving him the gun.

He called it his gun in a social media post. If the parents were aware the gun was in his possession I might change my mind and agree that they really are guilty of felony murder, in a meaningful way.

I'm confident the prosecutor will charge them with something, and probably with the most severe charge she can make stick. I don't get the feeling that she was inclined toward sympathy in this case.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 10:30 AM   #71
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 17,292
Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I don't think the solution is to make any penalty more harsh. We have some fairly harsh penalties and still the highest incarceration rate in the world. It's obvious that these penalties aren't a significant deterrent.

I would assume there's a better way, but doing the same thing over and over is insane. That's exactly what we're doing as a country. School shooting, tots and pears, what a horrible tragedy, move on, school shooting, tots and pears, what a horrible tragedy, move on.

As others have said, this country is already comfortable sacrificing any number of people to have guns. Even warp12 said it, school shootings are but a drop in the ocean of US gun deaths. We just shrug it off and keep going. The US would rather have the corpses than be without guns.

It's the same thing as the "I'd rather 10 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man be locked up" mantra. The US would rather have 30,000 dead bodies over 1 man not being able to have his pew pew to defend himself when the baddies come.
Disagreed. They want the pew pews to shoot paper targets on the weekend and show their buddies and talk about how dangerous they are, and some who want to kill when given a legal pretext. Actual defense is not usually a factor. YMMV.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 10:38 AM   #72
Sherkeu
Master Poster
 
Sherkeu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Disneyland
Posts: 2,682
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In the old days I could have called this thread "Responsible gun owner buys new gun and lets teenage kid access it."
In the old days, there would be more kids with guns on campus (unloaded, except when allowed).

High School Gun Clubs wikihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_s..._United_States

Quote:
Supported by organizations like the Civilian Marksmanship Program, school-based gun education was routine for much of the 20th century. It was common for high school teams to compete with .22 caliber rifles. In recent years, air rifles have gained in popularity as a more affordable and safer alternative to .22 rifles.

According to John Lott:

Until 1969 virtually every public high school—even in New York City—had a shooting club. High school students in New York City carried their guns to school on the subways in the morning, turned them over to their homeroom teacher or the gym coach during the day, and retrieved them after school for target practice. Club members were given their rifles and ammunition by the federal government. Students regularly competed in citywide shooting contests for university scholarships.
Also- I think gun control can do some good in terms of making people go through more to get and keep them safely. But that does not apply to the mental state of these teen boys who now see this as an option for their woes.
I think in the "old days" this option of lethal actions would not have even "occurred" to a kid.

In the last few decades, these shooters may be seen as heroes for other teens who feel bullied or unfairly treated. (If you look at what precedes it, it is often getting in trouble, e.g. suspended, expelled, humiliated in front of peers, etc...)

The rise in shooting is not in some vacuum of just these kids and parents....it points to additional mental problems of many more who don't go through with it. There are new inputs in the environs of these kids that is giving these outputs, and it isn't really about the guns themselves but more about an increase to see them as a solution. Find the largest driver of these issue and address that proactively.

(what that is, I can't say with any confidence!!)

Last edited by Sherkeu; 2nd December 2021 at 11:06 AM.
Sherkeu is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 11:01 AM   #73
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 14,882
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Of course passive defence like that isn't "sexy" and doesn't allow the homeowner to fantasise about being the hero, saving their family, in a home invasion scenario.
Liberals do not want men to dream about saving their family. No, that's a thought crime. They don't want men to have families at all, unless they're gay. The left wants men to become women, and that's wrong. Tucker 2024.
__________________
Cain: Don't be a homo.
Diablo: What's that supposed to mean?
Cain: It's a heteronormative remark meant to be taken at face-value.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 11:21 AM   #74
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,226
Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That is a good point; but on the other hand, one could argue the intent isn't so much to deter future shooters, but rather the parents of potential future shooters. It's been reported - with a lot of caveats about a lack of solid verification - that the shooter in this incident used a weapon his father had just purchased online. It's also been reported that the kid had posted some kind of photos showing off this particular weapon on social media.

If that's all true, and it turns out that after buying the gun the parents never bothered to take responsible steps to make sure it was secure and couldn't be accessed by people who shouldn't be accessing it (like, you know, kids), that kind of decision-making definitely needs to be deterred.
Re: The highlighted. How does that work? Order it. Pay for it and UPS turn up with it at your door? Or what?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 11:42 AM   #75
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 8,998
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
As I say, these "child sacrifices" are hardly of any concern in the grand scheme.
Yes, we've noticed.
Matthew Best is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 11:47 AM   #76
azazal
Ninja Wave: Techno Ninja
 
azazal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 412
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Re: The highlighted. How does that work? Order it. Pay for it and UPS turn up with it at your door? Or what?
You could do it that way, but then you've committed a federal felony.

The correct process when buying from an online store, you go to web site, purchase said firearm, have it sipped to your FFL holder of choice (Federal Firearms Licensee) The FFL then runs a normal background check on the purchaser (same thing you would do when buying from a store in person) and if all is good, transfers the gun to the purchaser.

However, you can "purchase" a firearm from anyone online, and not have to deal with the background check. You need to purchase the firearm from a private seller, not a store or other business. The buyer and seller need to meet in person to physically transfer the gun between the two, no shipping allowed.

That's the Cliff Notes version. The private seller option has a ton of loopholes and caveats that would fill it's own thread though.
__________________
_____________________________________________
My gun collection has killed 5 fewer people than the Kennedy clan has with cars, airplanes and golf clubs. - Ranb
azazal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 11:49 AM   #77
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Re: The highlighted. How does that work? Order it. Pay for it and UPS turn up with it at your door? Or what?
In news stories I've read, there has been no mention of him buying the gun online, just that he bought it Friday.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 11:50 AM   #78
plague311
Great minds think...
 
plague311's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 11,738
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In news stories I've read, there has been no mention of him buying the gun online, just that he bought it Friday.
I went looking around and I didn't see anything about it being purchased online either. Just that he got a deal on it because he purchased it on Black Friday.
__________________
"Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher

“There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss
plague311 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 11:55 AM   #79
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,556
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
In the old days, there would be more kids with guns on campus (unloaded, except when allowed).

High School Gun Clubs wikihttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_s..._United_States



Also- I think gun control can do some good in terms of making people go through more to get and keep them safely. But that does not apply to the mental state of these teen boys who now see this as an option for their woes.
I think in the "old days" this option of lethal actions would not have even "occurred" to a kid.

In the last few decades, these shooters may be seen as heroes for other teens who feel bullied or unfairly treated. (If you look at what precedes it, it is often getting in trouble, e.g. suspended, expelled, humiliated in front of peers, etc...)

The rise in shooting is not in some vacuum of just these kids and parents....it points to additional mental problems of many more who don't go through with it. There are new inputs in the environs of these kids that is giving these outputs, and it isn't really about the guns themselves but more about an increase to see them as a solution. Find the largest driver of these issue and address that proactively.

(what that is, I can't say with any confidence!!)
Shooting clubs in schools doesn't seem totally weird to me, but carrying them to school on the subway seems a bit odd.


I was actually referring to the forum "old days". There were lots of threads started with titles along the lines of "Responsible gun owner shoots wife.". Or "Responsible gun owner shoots self in leg.". It was poking fun at gun rights advocates always talking about the rights of responsible gun owners
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2021, 12:54 PM   #80
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 20,252
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Instead of using their legislative powers to require adults to securely store guns, it seems some Michigan lawmakers want to arm and train teachers so they can shoot their students.

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/new...es/8820389002/
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
Those who agree with me may not always be right, but nonetheless, I admire their astuteness.
Cullen Hightower
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:19 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.