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Old 22nd July 2020, 06:59 AM   #761
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
I'm seriously considering moving most of my portfolio to cash (leaving only the big winners and likely survivors). I believe the confluence of upcoming events -- increased death toll, bankruptcies, mortgage implosion, and new jobless numbers as lockdowns are reimposed -- will result in a crash of sorts.

Selling now will mean realizing losses, and if my investment horizon were 30 years instead of 5, I'd say the best plan would be to wait it out. My concern is that it may take many years for the market to stabilize and work its way out of this mess, although I expect a good bounce (hopefully not a dead cat) when a vaccine is widely available. Still, since I'll need to be drawing money out starting about 4 years from now, I think I'm better off avoiding the black pits of hell and (to mix my metaphors), riding the tide back up when that starts.

Comments? Suggestions? Advice? Prognostications?
I think coronavirus related disasters are only a couple of years out. In other words, I think two years from now we will be in whatever new normal exists at the time. I'm pretty sure that will be a lot like the old normal, but even if it isn't, it won't be lockdowns and economic stagnation. We'll be back to work, even if work looks a little different. We'll be earning and spending, and any economic collapse caused by the epidemic will be short lived.

So, if you aren't trying to do "market timing", anticipating a short term drop and trying to avoid it and get back in when it's low, I would say there's no need to liquidate stocks. Corporations will be making money four years from now.

And if you don't care to guess which corporations, that's what mutual funds are for. There will be a lot of shakeups in the economy due to coronavirus. Somebody will be making money, but it might not be the same people that are making it today.

Conventional wisdom would be that, at your age, you shouldn't be 100% in on stocks right now anyway, so if you are, most people would suggest partial divestment.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 10:51 AM   #762
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I'm currently 60% in stocks, 10% bonds, 30% cash (money market that pays about 1.2%). With the exception of a few outliers, stocks and bonds are in mutual funds.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 01:21 PM   #763
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Originally Posted by DallasDad View Post
Comments? Suggestions? Advice? Prognostications?
With the markets at ridiculously high levels on the back of gambling investors, I'd say now is the ideal time to sell.

Prices may ever head higher, but when the earnings start to come in, we'll see more bears than Jellystone.

And it's not just Covid - the US/China spat will have a major effect on the markets and current prices aren't sustainable under any scenario.

Look at it this way - by moving to cash, you might miss out on a 5-10% appreciation, but you also might miss out on a 50% depreciation.

I switched all our funds to cash a couple of weeks ago. A bird in the hand and all that.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 01:38 PM   #764
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Look at it this way - by moving to cash, you might miss out on a 5-10% appreciation, but you also might miss out on a 50% depreciation.
That's the thinking that caused me to cash out some funds, but when I was done, I ended up pretty close to where Dallas Dad is already. I started out with about 90% stocks.

I do have individual stocks with stop orders on them, though, so that a slight dip in the market would result in a slight loss for me, and a cash position probably around 50%. The danger with those sorts of orders is that a quick dip downward in a stock price results in selling at the bottom. It has happened to me many times, but it's a chance I'll take right now. I have also had cases where my stop order hit as 10.00/share, and within a few weeks the stock was down to 6.00/share. So sometimes they work.

But, right now, I definitely agree that the potential short term down side is bigger than the potential short term up side. I'm doing a bit of market timing, even though everyone says to avoid that.

On the other hand, in my 401k plan, it's almost all stock investment. That part of my investing ends up being "dollar cost averaging", i.e. I just always buy and always hold.
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Old 22nd July 2020, 02:06 PM   #765
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I moved to cash in March and will only change when a vaccine appears.
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Old 30th July 2020, 10:49 AM   #766
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US economy contracted by a third in Q2: https://www.msn.com/en-us/finance/ma...rs/ar-BB17mZPZ
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Old 9th August 2020, 11:37 PM   #767
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Why billionaires are getting richer in the worst recession in 90 years:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...f-the-pandemic
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Old 11th August 2020, 12:49 AM   #768
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This month's update on my stocks and shares ISA. I've started a new column so the table expands in width rather than length.

Date% +/-Date% +/-
5.181.37.207.8
8.183.48.208.1
11.18-3.1  
2.19-0.8  
5.191.9  
8.197.4  
11.196.6  
2.2010.3  
3.203.7  
4.20-4.9  
5.200.3  
6.205.8  
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Old 25th August 2020, 01:38 PM   #769
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Ok, I'm going to agree this isn't a Black Swan.

The reason for that is that it's unique and requires an entirely new term, so I'm going with "Zebra Swan". No, they don't exist, which is the point, because nobody saw the possible outcome of this one, just like nobody expects to see a zebra-striped swan.

It's a cross between a black swan and a white knight.

Black swans are extremely rare negative events, while white knights are friendly takeovers of listed entities, and this event has both elements.

The negative effects are stark - hundreds of millions of people having their incomes slashed and being driven into homelessness and/or extreme poverty, while the positive effects are equally stark - sharemarkets hitting historical highs on the back of app-based gambling.

This event is exposing all the problems of the Friedman Doctrine, with trillions of dollars of quantitative easing money gushing up to the wallets of the rich. Musk, Zuckerberg & Bezos are raking in trillions as the bottom 40% of people see their money, homes and prospects swallowed up by the system.

No matter what model I try to use I can't see a way out and I have no idea where it will all end up. Traditionally, events of this magnitude and fallout cause revolutions, but with the enormous numbers of people at the bottom totally outgunned by law enforcement, I can't see that as an option.

We are creating an underclass that may well become the norm for up to half of all populations.
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Old 25th August 2020, 02:12 PM   #770
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ok, I'm going to agree this isn't a Black Swan.

The reason for that is that it's unique and requires an entirely new term, so I'm going with "Zebra Swan". No, they don't exist, which is the point, because nobody saw the possible outcome of this one, just like nobody expects to see a zebra-striped swan.

It's a cross between a black swan and a white knight.

Black swans are extremely rare negative events, while white knights are friendly takeovers of listed entities, and this event has both elements.

The negative effects are stark - hundreds of millions of people having their incomes slashed and being driven into homelessness and/or extreme poverty, while the positive effects are equally stark - sharemarkets hitting historical highs on the back of app-based gambling.

This event is exposing all the problems of the Friedman Doctrine, with trillions of dollars of quantitative easing money gushing up to the wallets of the rich. Musk, Zuckerberg & Bezos are raking in trillions as the bottom 40% of people see their money, homes and prospects swallowed up by the system.

No matter what model I try to use I can't see a way out and I have no idea where it will all end up. Traditionally, events of this magnitude and fallout cause revolutions, but with the enormous numbers of people at the bottom totally outgunned by law enforcement, I can't see that as an option.

We are creating an underclass that may well become the norm for up to half of all populations.
The housing situation is a catastrophe.
Mortgage rates at 2.25% fuelling landlords hoovering up properties as their yields rise, rents at record highs, and tenants getting no benefit from the mortgage rates, rent is always head of the queue for the desperate because no misery like lack of power food or petrol comes close to the misery of eviction, which is easily achieved despite contrary suggestions.
Property managers and landlords are armed with forms for tenants to demand the government borrows billions more to pay rent to the disgustingly greedy residential property owners who pass on not a skerrick of their windfall guaranteed gains. And mortgage rates are set to fall further.
The black swan that would delight me would be 7% interest rates that is the level banks nominally stress test borrowers to.
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Old 25th August 2020, 02:27 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ok, I'm going to agree this isn't a Black Swan.

The reason for that is that it's unique and requires an entirely new term, so I'm going with "Zebra Swan". No, they don't exist, which is the point, because nobody saw the possible outcome of this one, just like nobody expects to see a zebra-striped swan.

It's a cross between a black swan and a white knight.

Black swans are extremely rare negative events, while white knights are friendly takeovers of listed entities, and this event has both elements.

The negative effects are stark - hundreds of millions of people having their incomes slashed and being driven into homelessness and/or extreme poverty, while the positive effects are equally stark - sharemarkets hitting historical highs on the back of app-based gambling.

This event is exposing all the problems of the Friedman Doctrine, with trillions of dollars of quantitative easing money gushing up to the wallets of the rich. Musk, Zuckerberg & Bezos are raking in trillions as the bottom 40% of people see their money, homes and prospects swallowed up by the system.

No matter what model I try to use I can't see a way out and I have no idea where it will all end up. Traditionally, events of this magnitude and fallout cause revolutions, but with the enormous numbers of people at the bottom totally outgunned by law enforcement, I can't see that as an option.

We are creating an underclass that may well become the norm for up to half of all populations.
I kind of foresaw it. As you predicted calamity, I said that companies ought to have a really awful year, but there's no reason to think that they will collapse in the long run, so the stock market shouldn't be in complete collapse. It's just a short term hiccup.

I certainly didn't see it recovering the way it did, and I think it is overvalued right now, but my opinion isn't always reliable in such matters.

As for the disastrous effects you predict, I don't see it being as bad as you make it out to be. I do think, unfortunately, that inflation is in the future, but I don't think it's society changing. The most likely scenario I see is that the Democrats return to power, either this year or four years from now. Taxes on the rich get raised. Inflation eats away at the national debt, and a huge number of retirement accounts, and eventually the US gets national health care.

However, my opinion and 4 bucks will buy you a cup of coffee, so take it for what it's worth.
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Old 25th August 2020, 03:45 PM   #772
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
The housing situation is a catastrophe.
Mortgage rates at 2.25% fuelling landlords hoovering up properties as their yields rise, rents at record highs, and tenants getting no benefit from the mortgage rates, rent is always head of the queue for the desperate because no misery like lack of power food or petrol comes close to the misery of eviction, which is easily achieved despite contrary suggestions.
Property managers and landlords are armed with forms for tenants to demand the government borrows billions more to pay rent to the disgustingly greedy residential property owners who pass on not a skerrick of their windfall guaranteed gains. And mortgage rates are set to fall further.
The black swan that would delight me would be 7% interest rates that is the level banks nominally stress test borrowers to.
I agree with all that - the system is ******.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I kind of foresaw it. As you predicted calamity, I said that companies ought to have a really awful year, but there's no reason to think that they will collapse in the long run, so the stock market shouldn't be in complete collapse. It's just a short term hiccup.
Lots of companies will collapse, though, and outside of some tech companies, earnings will be savaged.

What nobody foresaw was the app trading platforms boosting the markets the way they have.

I certainly didn't see it recovering the way it did, and I think it is overvalued right now, but my opinion isn't always reliable in such matters.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
As for the disastrous effects you predict, I don't see it being as bad as you make it out to be.
Despite the fact we already know it's happening?

Rents are massively overdue, evictions will happen and millions of people will have nowhere to go.

You might not be seeing it because you're protected from the problems, but they're there.

I already posted UN data on hundreds of millions being driven into extreme poverty, and all at a time when charitable donations have dried up.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I do think, unfortunately, that inflation is in the future, but I don't think it's society changing.
There should have been inflation from the QE going on since the GFC, but it never happened, because shares and housing aren't counted. The inflation is all hidden by people investing in assets. The upwards flow of money is a torrent and people on the bottom have no funds to fuel inflation.

I just hope your thoughts on regime change in the US are correct, because another four years of the current one would cause mayhem.
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Old 25th August 2020, 04:08 PM   #773
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
There should have been inflation from the QE going on since the GFC, but it never happened, because shares and housing aren't counted. The inflation is all hidden by people investing in assets. The upwards flow of money is a torrent and people on the bottom have no funds to fuel inflation.
I think this is incorrect. In most countries, cost of housing is a component of the consumer basket used to calculate CPI. Category is labeled "shelter."

In Canada, we just got our last quarter's results, inflation was at 0.01%, which is essentially zero, and that included a 14% increase in real estate prices in the major urban centres. (Meaning: GTA, GVA, Montreal) Meanwhile, rents are falling.

I think the real danger at the moment is deflation, which is the actual reason QE has not resulted in inflation - it's doing what it's supposed to and stabilizing prices. But I'm worried about for how long, because there's not much room for further interest rate reductions.
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Old 25th August 2020, 04:43 PM   #774
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Oh, probably also worth pointing out that the stock indexes are probably a little overpriced but not bubble territory.

If you look at the S&P500, it's about even for the February peak, but it's been six months. Normally it'd up on average 5%. So, it's 5% down from expectation. That's actually a lot.

And that's an average across the whole index, which hides the fact that a handful of tech stocks have been doing extremely well vs the rest are down probably an average of another 15%, which is more like what we can expect given the problems listed above.

What I think this represents is a forecast by investors that we're seeing a permanent shift away from certain business models and toward others. Specifically, away from businesses involving crowds in the public space and toward more online socialization and commerce.

I'm also forecasting a churn in real estate and auto as WFH becomes more prevalent and white collar can conduct work without being close to a physical office. Fewer offices, fewer commuter cars, more scope in geography for dwellings, more need for space for home offices.
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Old 25th August 2020, 05:19 PM   #775
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think this is incorrect. In most countries, cost of housing is a component of the consumer basket used to calculate CPI. Category is labeled "shelter."
Wrong.

Your own government statistics prove the point: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/...017001-eng.htm

Rents are the major "shelter" component, and since they will be falling, the affect on inflation will be to reduce it further.
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Meanwhile, to back up my point about the bottom end faring very badly, NZ's median income has fallen for the first time since records began: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/mon...-stats-nz-says
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Old 25th August 2020, 07:06 PM   #776
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I'm seeing older companies like fossil fuel companies switch to alternative green and ethical practices and assets.

I'm also seeing ethical investments doing well.

Not to mention the big tech companies always on the rise.

Plus, the growth and more ethical practices in the Asian region.


Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
We are creating an underclass that may well become the norm for up to half of all populations.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy?
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Old 26th August 2020, 12:20 AM   #777
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Texas sharpshooter fallacy?
I don't think so - these things haven't come to pass yet, but I'm pretty confident they will.
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Old 5th September 2020, 07:39 PM   #778
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We are well into Modern Monetary Theory as the heterodox becomes the orthodox. Helicopter money is here to stay. Since most every first world country is in the same boat it may be surprisingly stable for quite a while.
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:25 AM   #779
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
Since most every first world country is in the same boat it may be surprisingly stable for quite a while.
Shares, maybe; real estate... who the hell knows?

I agree the flow of money into shares won't dry up when interest rates for deposits are zero, or close enough to it not to matter, but real estate is a different beast.

First off, there are lots of mortgage payers in arrears, and secondly, rentals will fall simply due to people not being able to afford rent. That may not matter as owners will be prepared to wait it out and assume capital gains in the future.

I made the comment to several people lately that the real trouble hasn't even started yet, and the fallout of job losses will be immense and long lasting.

We've created the perfect confluence of rising asset prices and falling incomes and something has to break.
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Old 6th September 2020, 02:58 AM   #780
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Shares, maybe; real estate... who the hell knows?

I agree the flow of money into shares won't dry up when interest rates for deposits are zero, or close enough to it not to matter, but real estate is a different beast.

First off, there are lots of mortgage payers in arrears, and secondly, rentals will fall simply due to people not being able to afford rent. That may not matter as owners will be prepared to wait it out and assume capital gains in the future.

I made the comment to several people lately that the real trouble hasn't even started yet, and the fallout of job losses will be immense and long lasting.

We've created the perfect confluence of rising asset prices and falling incomes and something has to break.
There is a surplus of disgusting greed in the residential landlord class.
Their investmentments are secured by government grants of money the government is stealing.
From the poorof the endless future.
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Old 6th September 2020, 10:49 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Their investments are secured by government grants of money the government is stealing.
That's the sickest part of it all, and it was Helen Clark who started it.

Now's the ideal time to fix the problem but Robertson already proved he has no balls, so we're going to be stuck with the consequences over the next few decades.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:21 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Shares, maybe; real estate... who the hell knows?

I agree the flow of money into shares won't dry up when interest rates for deposits are zero, or close enough to it not to matter, but real estate is a different beast.
Here in the USA the commercial real estate market is in a world of hurt. The Fed has stabilized bonds in these areas by buying up lots of crap bonds. This, of course, provides money to those that wisely sell/sold into this artificial support. But the near future for commercial real estate is pretty bad since it's a negative return asset. Hell, even gold/silver/diamonds aren't intrinsically negative return assets just zero return aside from minimal storage costs.

OTOH, residential real estate is doing well. People can change how/where they shop, see movies, eat, and work. But they pretty much have to live somewhere. So a lot of that cash the Fed provided to support commercial real estate bonds has been going into other assets. Pretty much all of them.

This shift has been coming since before Covid-19 which has accelerated things.
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Old 6th September 2020, 02:45 PM   #783
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Originally Posted by marting View Post
Here in the USA the commercial real estate market is in a world of hurt.
Yeah, my mistake - I was solely referring to residential real estate.

Commercial real estate is the one thing that might bring the house of cards crashing down. There's an enormous, and growing, amount of commercial space empty right now.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:23 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I moved to cash in March and will only change when a vaccine appears.
So your plan is to sell low and then buy high?
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Old 8th September 2020, 04:10 AM   #785
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This month's update on my stocks and shares ISA.

Date% +/-Date% +/-
5.181.37.207.8
8.183.48.208.1
11.18-3.19.207.9
2.19-0.8  
5.191.9  
8.197.4  
11.196.6  
2.2010.3  
3.203.7  
4.20-4.9  
5.200.3  
6.205.8  
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Old 8th September 2020, 11:30 AM   #786
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Bloomberg nails the problem - the rich are cashing in, while the poor are getting poorer.

Bloomberg via Al Jazeera
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Old 8th September 2020, 01:07 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Bloomberg nails the problem - the rich are cashing in, while the poor are getting poorer.

Bloomberg via Al Jazeera
Capitalism in action.

But in this case it's not just 'the rich'.

Quote:
Meanwhile, new mortgage originations reached a record $1.1 trillion in the second quarter. Rates on 30-year home loans slipped below 3% for the first time in history in July, enabling more homeowners with the ability to refinance to save hundreds of dollars a month...

The diverging trends illustrate how government intervention is aiding many financially secure households while the more vulnerable face mounting threats to their homeownership
In any economic downturn the poor get disproportionately effected because they have less to lose. To fix that they would need to get a greater share of the relief. But this is America, and we don't do such wealth redistribution because it's not fair!

So the CARES act provided as much to large corporations as private individuals. Any economist will tell you this was the best way to do it. If a few poor people get kicked out of their homes it's no big deal, since they aren't contributing much to the economy anyway. And the results speaks for themselves. The stock market is now riding higher than ever, so the only goal that really matters (protecting your investments) has been achieved!

Being poor in the US has always sucked. If we thought that was a problem we would have done something about it a long time ago.
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Old 11th September 2020, 01:26 AM   #788
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Bloomberg nails the problem - the rich are cashing in, while the poor are getting poorer.

Bloomberg via Al Jazeera
Can you explain what you mean?

It just sounds like the poor are getting a better deal on their mortgages with interest rates so low:


"About 2.25 million mortgages were at least 90 days late in July, a 450% increase from pre-pandemic levels and the biggest number since the global financial crisis, according to industry tracker Black Knight Inc.

"Meanwhile, new mortgage originations reached a record $1.1 trillion in the second quarter. Rates on 30-year home loans slipped below 3% for the first time in history in July, enabling more homeowners with the ability to refinance to save hundreds of dollars a month."

"Refinancing made up about 70% of the new home loans during the period."
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Old 11th September 2020, 02:57 AM   #789
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Can you explain what you mean?

It just sounds like the poor are getting a better deal on their mortgages with interest rates so low:
You and I must have different interpretations of what "poor" is, and I don't consider property owners poor.

I agree some mortgage holders are struggling to keep up, but with mortgage rates at historical lows, it doesn't matter.

People who don't own property are getting into rent deficit and don't have the luxury of assets and capital gains.
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Old 11th September 2020, 03:23 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by PhxHorn View Post
So your plan is to sell low and then buy high?
No. Iím not buying or selling anything. Iím deciding when the time is right to move my money out of a mixture of cash and bonds into a higher interest fund. That time is not now.

With the carnage in the share market of the past few weeks, Iím very, very happy where my money is.
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Old 13th September 2020, 09:29 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
No. I’m not buying or selling anything. I’m deciding when the time is right to move my money out of a mixture of cash and bonds into a higher interest fund. That time is not now.

If you went to cash in March, you sold at the bottom of the market. What do you mean by higher interest?

Quote:
With the carnage in the share market of the past few weeks, I’m very, very happy where my money is.

Since you referred to the results of the past few weeks, it sounds like you have a very very short-term time horizon. Of course, nothing should be in the stock market for less than five years minimum, in which case the returns over a short period would be irrelevant.
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Old 14th September 2020, 01:46 AM   #792
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
You and I must have different interpretations of what "poor" is, and I don't consider property owners poor.

I agree some mortgage holders are struggling to keep up, but with mortgage rates at historical lows, it doesn't matter.

People who don't own property are getting into rent deficit and don't have the luxury of assets and capital gains.
I don't consider someone with a mortgage an owner, or maybe only a certain percentage are owners.

The article didn't talk about rent, which is why I didn't consider renters.

I do know someone whose landlord in Melbourne giving them "a good deal" this year because of the virus, though, however, I do always worry they are throwing money out the window by renting and not being able to get a mortgage.
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Old 14th September 2020, 02:15 AM   #793
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Originally Posted by PhxHorn View Post
If you went to cash in March, you sold at the bottom of the market. What do you mean by higher interest?




Since you referred to the results of the past few weeks, it sounds like you have a very very short-term time horizon. Of course, nothing should be in the stock market for less than five years minimum, in which case the returns over a short period would be irrelevant.
Sigh. I didnít sell anything.

You probably know nothing about Australiaís superannuation system. Iím not talking about shares - I sold BHP shares a couple of years at just about its highest price ever and made a very good return. I moved the money into my superannuation fund.

Super funds are for the long run, and have returned 8-10% on average over the past decade. The last financial was typical, and returned something like that. When the market got the wobbles I moved in March from a ďbalancedĒ fund, with a large proportion of shares to cash and bonds. A lot of people I know lost a lot of money staying put.

I know investments should be for the long term....... unless you are approaching retirement. Iím 69. I can purchase an income stream which I will do so when I retire and my wife and I will be very comfortable. But until then I would like more capital growth than the 2% Iím getting now, so I will move out of cash when there is a vaccine. A pretty rational decision I think and far better than seeing my fund reduce by thousands a month.
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Old 27th September 2020, 09:54 PM   #794
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I know investments should be for the long term....... unless you are approaching retirement.
They are still for the long term, because you're not going to be spending every cent on the first day of retirement.

Quote:
I will move out of cash when there is a vaccine. A pretty rational decision I think and far better than seeing my fund reduce by thousands a month.
Of course, when a vaccine is announced it will already be priced into whatever shares or income stream you buy into. Marking timing is almost impossible. I assume that's also true in Australia.
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Old 29th September 2020, 02:48 AM   #795
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Originally Posted by PhxHorn View Post
They are still for the long term, because you're not going to be spending every cent on the first day of retirement.
You may not be spending every cent, but if you're going to invest all, or a sizeable proportion, of your pension fund in an annuity then you are going to be liquidating all or most of it on one day - or over a limited period of time.

This is why the conventional wisdom has been to gradually move from more to less volatile investments in the years leading up to retirement so that a sudden drop in the market doesn't result in a significant reduction in retirement income.

These days, in the UK at least, it's different. We're not compelled to invest the vast majority of our pension funds in an annuity (which may, or may not, be a double-edged sword). It seems that very few people have taken their pension fund and blown it on a spending spree (which was one fear) but then again, it's not clear how effectively they're being used to generate retirement income. The sad truth is that that average UK private pension pot is currently under £50k - not something that's going to make a huge difference to the financial security of one's retirement.
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Old 29th September 2020, 04:28 AM   #796
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
<snip>

These days, in the UK at least, it's different. We're not compelled to invest the vast majority of our pension funds in an annuity (which may, or may not, be a double-edged sword). It seems that very few people have taken their pension fund and blown it on a spending spree (which was one fear) but then again, it's not clear how effectively they're being used to generate retirement income. The sad truth is that that average UK private pension pot is currently under £50k - not something that's going to make a huge difference to the financial security of one's retirement.
In contrast, in Australia, an amount equal to 9.5% of your gross income goes into super.
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Old 1st October 2020, 10:49 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
In contrast, in Australia, an amount equal to 9.5% of your gross income goes into super.
Employers have fought tooth and nail for decades to minimise their contributions. Unfortunately not too many people can afford to invest 9.5% of their own money for a whole career.

And don't get me started on the poor performance of managed funds, the fees you have to pay (buy, sell and management) and the cumulative effect that has on the value of your funds.
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Old 1st October 2020, 10:58 PM   #798
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Dow futures plunged 500 points on the news that Donald and Melania Trump have tested positive for Covid 19.

What will tomorrow's opening be like?
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Old 1st October 2020, 11:12 PM   #799
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Employers have fought tooth and nail for decades to minimise their contributions. Unfortunately not too many people can afford to invest 9.5% of their own money for a whole career.

And don't get me started on the poor performance of managed funds, the fees you have to pay (buy, sell and management) and the cumulative effect that has on the value of your funds.
My fund has averaged over 10% for the past 10 years.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 12:14 AM   #800
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Dow futures plunged 500 points on the news that Donald and Melania Trump have tested positive for Covid 19.

What will tomorrow's opening be like?
Icky.
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