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Old 1st October 2020, 12:16 PM   #1361
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I would have thought that prioritising inner-city areas where there is a high population density and a high incidence of multi-generational households might be wise, but someone is sure to complain that ethnic minority communities are

(a) being used as guinea-pigs

(b) being unfairly punted to the head of the queue.
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Old 1st October 2020, 01:54 PM   #1362
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SNP MP Margaret Ferrier is in trouble after she travelled from Scotland to Westminster despite having Covid symptoms, then took a test in Westminster, tested positive, and then travelled back to Scotland on public transport in order to self-isolate. The train drivers' union is not impressed, nor is her party leader, Nicola Sturgeon, who has withdrawn the whip from Ferrier.

Just to make this even more entertaining:

"Ms Ferrier was one of the MPs who called on the prime minister's advisor Dominic Cummings to resign in the wake of the controversy over his visit to the north east of England during lockdown.

At the time, she said his actions had "undermined the sacrifices that we have all been making" and described his position as "untenable"."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54379026
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Old 1st October 2020, 02:55 PM   #1363
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
SNP MP Margaret Ferrier is in trouble after she travelled from Scotland to Westminster despite having Covid symptoms, then took a test in Westminster, tested positive, and then travelled back to Scotland on public transport in order to self-isolate. The train drivers' union is not impressed, nor is her party leader, Nicola Sturgeon, who has withdrawn the whip from Ferrier.

Just to make this even more entertaining:

"Ms Ferrier was one of the MPs who called on the prime minister's advisor Dominic Cummings to resign in the wake of the controversy over his visit to the north east of England during lockdown.

At the time, she said his actions had "undermined the sacrifices that we have all been making" and described his position as "untenable"."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54379026
Presumably a fair number of the SNP MPs will now be self isolating for 2 weeks as contacts and consequently unable to perform their functions due to her.
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Old 1st October 2020, 03:30 PM   #1364
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In terms of potentially infecting others with the virus, what she did was probably worse than Cummings. But despite being an MP, she's not as high profile as him, so her actions probably won't have the same negative effect on the public's adherence to the rules that Cummings' disgraceful behaviour did. He should have been sacked, and now she should be too: but he hasn't been, and she probably won't be either.
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Old 1st October 2020, 04:26 PM   #1365
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It's a resigning matter, pure and simple. It was worse than what Cummings did, and she's an actual elected representative.
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Old 1st October 2020, 04:36 PM   #1366
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Boris said “The rules are very simple”, he said he’d fine anybody breaking the rules £1000
Then his dad broke them, then Boris immediately didn’t fine him a penny.
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Old 1st October 2020, 05:10 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
SNP MP Margaret Ferrier is in trouble after she travelled from Scotland to Westminster despite having Covid symptoms, then took a test in Westminster, tested positive, and then travelled back to Scotland on public transport in order to self-isolate. The train drivers' union is not impressed, nor is her party leader, Nicola Sturgeon, who has withdrawn the whip from Ferrier.

A wise choice. It's likely the blood spatter would be hazardous to the whole crew. But mast-heading would be a safe and effective alternative.
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Old 1st October 2020, 11:22 PM   #1368
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Boris said “The rules are very simple”, he said he’d fine anybody breaking the rules £1000
Then his dad broke them, then Boris immediately didn’t fine him a penny.
I am not sure the PM has this power. I know there are concerns about executive orders, but I believe due process still occurs, the police have to investigate, then I believe they would usually 'remind' people of the law and only act if there was a refusal after a reminder. I would not be one to insist on the full force of the law to come down on elderly pensioners. Eighty year olds can be forgetful.
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Old 1st October 2020, 11:40 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's a resigning matter, pure and simple. It was worse than what Cummings did, and she's an actual elected representative.
The first ministers lunch time broadcast should be good value today.

There also appears to be questions about how long she took to inform anyone of her status.

What she did was much worse than Cummings. Cummings left work as soon as he heard his wife had symptoms (before he had any) and self isolated at the family home having travelled there by private car. Ferrier having tested on Saturday because of symptoms was then required to self isolate, she chose to travel on public transport (presumably Edinburgh to London train therefore several hours and a real transmission risk), go in to work, she got the test back positive on Monday and then chose to travel back by public transport knowing she was positive. She did not tell anyone about the positive test until Tuesday, and parliamentary authorities on Wednesday?

She cannot be sacked, if she could be then she should be treated as any other employee and due process followed. I do not believe justice is served by making examples of people because of their prominence (and even more so because of their relative's prominence), people should be equal before the law.

ETA she may have breached health and safety law and could be prosecuted for this?

Last edited by Planigale; 1st October 2020 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 1st October 2020, 11:51 PM   #1370
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's a resigning matter, pure and simple. It was worse than what Cummings did, and she's an actual elected representative.
I don't think MPs should necessarily be held to higher standards than the general public.


It was worse not because she is s MP it was worse because she took a 4 hour+ journey on public transport knowing she was infected. Cummings thought his wife was infected (from recollection) and drove in a private car.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 01:14 AM   #1371
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
The Android version is similar. A pulsing "scanning", a statement that your post code (S35) is "medium risk". Touch and it explains "medium".

A symptom checker asking if you are hot to the touch and/or have a cough. I just wish it would add an "I always have these symptoms" option. Seriously, I took my kid to a children's science fair years back and there was an infrared camera showing people in the room on a big TV. I stood out like a special effect. And GERD has damaged my throat so I always have a cough.
I sympathise, I also run hot. Thankfully autumn has arrived here.

Our Covid checks, both app and phone (a neighbour had to visit the hospital's diabetic clinic and was pre-screened by phone) check specifically for lost/altered sense of smell.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 01:16 AM   #1372
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
All well and good, but even if the app gathers data as designed - are these data of any use?

Media investigations into the usefulness of the Australian app indicate that not a single COVID case has been identified by the app that was not already identified by physical, human contact tracing. In many cases the app did not identify any of the cases cases that human tracing had identified.

The app has been downloaded by 7 million people (28% of the entire population) but how many of these downloads were activated, e.g., sharing turned on isn’t known.
In Ireland it's worked to trace and locate people infected with Covid, I suspect it's as much about how the app is used as anything else.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 01:18 AM   #1373
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
To be honest a worldwide pandemic seems like a great marketing ploy for "Your Plastic Pal Who's Fun To Be With."
Sex toy sales are up greatly. However many munches have been cancelled.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 01:36 AM   #1374
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It was worse not because she is s MP it was worse because she took a 4 hour+ journey on public transport knowing she was infected. Cummings thought his wife was infected (from recollection) and drove in a private car.

On R4 today they were interviewing someone (I was driving so no notes) about what a big study showed of transmission vectors. Highly interesting. The relevant one was that odds of infection from family 1/10, work 1/20, travelling with someone 6 hours sitting close 80%. Note the bolded.

I'll try to provide more when I catch up on 2 days missed work.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 02:01 AM   #1375
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
SNP MP Margaret Ferrier is in trouble after she travelled from Scotland to Westminster despite having Covid symptoms, then took a test in Westminster, tested positive, and then travelled back to Scotland on public transport in order to self-isolate. The train drivers' union is not impressed, nor is her party leader, Nicola Sturgeon, who has withdrawn the whip from Ferrier.
What I don't understand is why she felt she had to be in Westminster?

She was waiting for a test result, which I would have thought would count towards virtual voting (or whatever arcane nonsense Rees-Mogg thought up).
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Old 2nd October 2020, 03:05 AM   #1376
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I believe the [police] would usually 'remind' people of the law and only act if there was a refusal after a reminder.

See, I think this is a problem. It goes back to "I'd rather ask forgiveness than permission," which is not an appropriate course of action in the middle of a pandemic.

The public now knows very well, because it has been widely publicised, that they can breach the covid regulations any which way they like, so long as they're suitably contrite if they're caught. This may not apply to very egregious breaches such as huge parties with a hundred or more guests, but family gatherings, students socialising, all the normal sorts of things people want to do but are forbidden from doing, can actually be done with essentially no risk of any santions beyond a "more in sorrow than in anger" ticking-off.

This is no way to combat a deadly virus. The countries that have controlled it have been firm in their policing, have actually checked that people were doing what they were supposed to be doing, and have fined people for non-compliance.

Yes I could accept that there might be occasional cases, say a confused elderly person, where leniency might be appropriate, but we've been well told that leniency is to be standard. Do what you like so long as you apologise nicely in the unlikely event that you're caught seems to be the situation.

And yes I do think that an elected representative responsible for shaping the law should be held to a higher standard than an ordinary member of the public. But I also think that the general public, at least those in the upper 90% or so of the intelligence bell curve, should be held to a much higher standard than is actually happening.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 03:12 AM   #1377
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
What I don't understand is why she felt she had to be in Westminster?

She was waiting for a test result, which I would have thought would count towards virtual voting (or whatever arcane nonsense Rees-Mogg thought up).

I've seen no explanation or justification from her. I'd also very much like to know whether she had the contact tracing apps on her phone, like we're all told we ought to have. (I have the Scottish one on mine, but if I travelled to England I'd certainly download the English one too, now that the privacy concerns seem to have been largely addressed.)
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Old 2nd October 2020, 04:31 AM   #1378
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From Twitter

https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1311764583544168450?s=20


Quote:
In defence of Margaret Ferrier, an SNP source tells me: "Thing with Margaret is there will have been no malice to it... she's just really hard of thinking."
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Old 2nd October 2020, 04:44 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
From Twitter

https://twitter.com/ChrisMusson/status/1311764583544168450?s=20
Should be in Brewer's as an example of "condemning with faint praise"!
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Old 2nd October 2020, 04:49 AM   #1380
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Nicola Sturgeon today (via the Guardian live)
Quote:
At her daily briefing, Nicola Sturgeon said that Margaret Ferrier’s actions were “reckless, dangerous and completely indefensible and I feel very angry on behalf of all of you”.
Sturgeon said that there could be a variety of reasons why people find it hard to follow rules, they are complicated but “I am struggling to put what Margaret did into any of these categories”.
She is blunt: Ferrier’s was a “flagrant” breach and although “she accepts without reservation that she has made a very serious error of judgement...Can she give me a cogent explanation why she did it? No”.
Travelling by train with a positive test result for Covid is “possibly the worst breach imaginable” says Sturgeon. “I can’t excuse this, nor am I going to try.”
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Old 2nd October 2020, 05:10 AM   #1381
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I've had a number of serious criticisms of the SNP's vetting process over the past few years, and this is another example of someone who should not have got through. I'm sorry, but I expect a modicum of intelligence in my elected representatives, and being thick as pig crap should be a disqualifier.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 06:33 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I've had a number of serious criticisms of the SNP's vetting process over the past few years, and this is another example of someone who should not have got through. I'm sorry, but I expect a modicum of intelligence in my elected representatives, and being thick as pig crap should be a disqualifier.
Yes but it should be a disqualifier for being PM as well, that certainly doesn't seem to be the case.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 07:29 AM   #1383
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Anybody who thinks that the app will be a magic bullet that solves everything is either ill-informed or stupid. What it is is an additional tool. The more tools we have, the better. It's all about reduction, not elimination.

For example, look at this research. The headline conclusion is that 80% of smartphone users/56% of the population would have to adopt this app in order to kill the disease.

But it also concludes:



From the discussion portion of the paper:
That's interesting. I don't think a 56% general population uptake is impossible; IIRR here it was around 33% by mid-July. I must look for the updated numbers.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 07:36 AM   #1384
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
The number of people wearing face coverings on London buses seems to be reducing by the day.

Drivers have been told not to refuse travel and cause a confrontation.

The p.a. announcements say the transport system is being policed by the Met and TfL inspectors. I have yet to see any of these on any bus I have been driving.

As for the introduction of "school service" buses, that is a complete joke, which might be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.
Interesting. Over here mask wearing is effectively universal; the driver will not allow an un-masked person on board a bus and the trams have extra personnel making checks.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 07:38 AM   #1385
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Just on my way to Trafalgar Square with a rucksack full of magic beans, get rich quick schemes, black market David Icke t-shirts and enchanted gemstones that cure cancer.
It's like a festival of the gullible.
Think of me as a travelling version of Holland and Barrett!
Where can one get a couple of crop-spraying drones and some industrial strength bleach?
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Old 2nd October 2020, 07:39 AM   #1386
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
^ if you want to know what he said, click on play on the video instead of bothering me with idiotic strawmen.
Why would anyone with a functioning brain care what the nutter spews?
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Old 2nd October 2020, 07:51 AM   #1387
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Gawd, the Protect Scotland app has nothing like that. It just sits there on your phone and presumably keeps an eye out for other phones nearby that are also running the app. As far as I can see anyway.
That's because it's a completely different app....
Protect Scotland uses the NearForm app base developed for the HSE in Ireland (for €850k) and therefore works. The source code is freely available for any country who wants to develop an app.
This is unlike the "UK" "NHS" app which cost more than €42 million and, well has some problems.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 07:54 AM   #1388
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Dido Harding says that Johnson's "moonshot" tests will not be available on the NHS, and that instead people will have to pay for them

No word on pricing, but currently available tests cost £100. In other words, it looks likely that Johnson's moonshot will protect only those who can afford £100 per day per person in their household.

I wonder if Cummings had anything to do with this? He's the government's resident eugenicist.
Train some sniffer dogs. Faster and more effective.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 08:05 AM   #1389
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In a way we did, they were used as contractors for sub assemblies. For example furniture manufacturers were given contracts for Mosquito sub assemblies.
To be fair the Molins gun was developed by a company that made cigarette machines (machines that made cigarettes, not vended them).
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Old 2nd October 2020, 08:27 AM   #1390
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
SNP MP Margaret Ferrier is in trouble after she travelled from Scotland to Westminster despite having Covid symptoms, then took a test in Westminster, tested positive, and then travelled back to Scotland on public transport in order to self-isolate. The train drivers' union is not impressed, nor is her party leader, Nicola Sturgeon, who has withdrawn the whip from Ferrier.

Just to make this even more entertaining:

"Ms Ferrier was one of the MPs who called on the prime minister's advisor Dominic Cummings to resign in the wake of the controversy over his visit to the north east of England during lockdown.

At the time, she said his actions had "undermined the sacrifices that we have all been making" and described his position as "untenable"."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-54379026
Good. Now if only the Conservative party has some sense of responsibility.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 08:28 AM   #1391
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
What I don't understand is why she felt she had to be in Westminster?

She was waiting for a test result, which I would have thought would count towards virtual voting (or whatever arcane nonsense Rees-Mogg thought up).
Is there a need to 'clock in' for salary/expenses purposes?
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Old 2nd October 2020, 08:48 AM   #1392
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That's because it's a completely different app....
Protect Scotland uses the NearForm app base developed for the HSE in Ireland (for €850k) and therefore works. The source code is freely available for any country who wants to develop an app.
This is unlike the "UK" "NHS" app which cost more than €42 million and, well has some problems.

We were told today that the Scottish app has been downloaded 1.3 million times (1,338,471 according to my phone) and that over the past three weeks over 2,000 people have been advised to isolate through the app. This time it was stated "These are people who might not otherwise have been identified," however I rather doubt whether it's true that none of them would have been traced by the normal contact-tracing operation.

Contact tracing app downloaded by 1.3 million

The idea that a phone app alone could wipe out this virus is fanciful, no matter how many people downloaded it. Apart from anything else, it's estimated that only 3 million people in Scotland actually possess phones capable of running the app. It's an add-on or extension to traditional boots on the ground contact tracing, not a substitute for it.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 09:08 AM   #1393
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Is there a need to 'clock in' for salary/expenses purposes?
There are expenses for attending, certainly in the upper house, but they are not at a level where an MP would attend purely to get money. There is no reason for her to especially attend other than I guess it was her turn. In the current vivid situation they take turns in attending. A replacement could easily go if someone was ill or needed to self isolate.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 09:10 AM   #1394
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
We were told today that the Scottish app has been downloaded 1.3 million times (1,338,471 according to my phone) and that over the past three weeks over 2,000 people have been advised to isolate through the app. This time it was stated "These are people who might not otherwise have been identified," however I rather doubt whether it's true that none of them would have been traced by the normal contact-tracing operation.

Contact tracing app downloaded by 1.3 million

The idea that a phone app alone could wipe out this virus is fanciful, no matter how many people downloaded it. Apart from anything else, it's estimated that only 3 million people in Scotland actually possess phones capable of running the app. It's an add-on or extension to traditional boots on the ground contact tracing, not a substitute for it.
I am sorry you can't have a project as important as the app without enriching you old school mates and the wives of your colleagues.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 09:12 AM   #1395
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
What I don't understand is why she felt she had to be in Westminster?

She was waiting for a test result, which I would have thought would count towards virtual voting (or whatever arcane nonsense Rees-Mogg thought up).
Oh, as an aside, how come Mark Francois has a proxy vote and hasn't been seen for several weeks?
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 2nd October 2020, 09:14 AM   #1396
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Latest statement from Northumbria University - 1700 on 2 October 2020

At Northumbria University we believe we have a duty to our students, staff and wider community to provide the best possible teaching and research, despite the challenges that we face locally, nationally and globally. We are committed to ensuring that we provide the teaching and learning experience this generation of students deserves. Throughout this, the health safety and wellbeing of our students, staff and community is paramount.

As of Friday 2 October, we can confirm that we are aware of 770 Northumbria University students who have tested positive for Covid-19 of whom 78 are symptomatic. These students are all now self-isolating. Their flatmates and any close contacts are also self-isolating for 14 days in line with government guidance, and have been advised to contact NHS119 to book a test as soon as possible should symptoms appear.
https://www.northumbria.ac.uk/covid1...st-information
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 2nd October 2020, 11:20 AM   #1397
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
See, I think this is a problem. It goes back to "I'd rather ask forgiveness than permission," which is not an appropriate course of action in the middle of a pandemic.

The public now knows very well, because it has been widely publicised, that they can breach the covid regulations any which way they like, so long as they're suitably contrite if they're caught. This may not apply to very egregious breaches such as huge parties with a hundred or more guests, but family gatherings, students socialising, all the normal sorts of things people want to do but are forbidden from doing, can actually be done with essentially no risk of any santions beyond a "more in sorrow than in anger" ticking-off.

This is no way to combat a deadly virus. The countries that have controlled it have been firm in their policing, have actually checked that people were doing what they were supposed to be doing, and have fined people for non-compliance.

Yes I could accept that there might be occasional cases, say a confused elderly person, where leniency might be appropriate, but we've been well told that leniency is to be standard. Do what you like so long as you apologise nicely in the unlikely event that you're caught seems to be the situation.

And yes I do think that an elected representative responsible for shaping the law should be held to a higher standard than an ordinary member of the public. But I also think that the general public, at least those in the upper 90% or so of the intelligence bell curve, should be held to a much higher standard than is actually happening.
What you say makes sense in the abstract, you are undoubtedly correct. I just find my empathy comes to the fore when faced with an actual individual. I keep thinking the Ferrier must have thought the she just over-reacted by having a test, she had to represent her constituents etc. People aren't logical. I don't feel losing her job is a just punishment for her crime. I don't want to see her out on the streets because she can't pay her mortgage, sitting on a cardboard box outside Aldi, drinking her bucky.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 11:33 AM   #1398
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I very much doubt it would come to that. At some point people have to take responsibility for their actions.

Does your heart bleed for all the people who have been closely supervised in quarantine in places from Taiwan to New Zealand, who have been fined for breaking self-isolation restrictions and so on? My heart bleeds for all the people who have died of this virus, and their families, and particularly the deaths in the new wave we're seeing now after no deaths at all for weeks.

I think I can cope with the idea of people being fined and even with the idea that an MP has had to resign. She lost her seat once before, she'll cope. And she should have had enough foresight to realise the consequences of her actions. If she lacks that, she's not bright enough to be an MP anyway.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 12:02 PM   #1399
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I very much doubt it would come to that. At some point people have to take responsibility for their actions.

Does your heart bleed for all the people who have been closely supervised in quarantine in places from Taiwan to New Zealand, who have been fined for breaking self-isolation restrictions and so on? My heart bleeds for all the people who have died of this virus, and their families, and particularly the deaths in the new wave we're seeing now after no deaths at all for weeks.

I think I can cope with the idea of people being fined and even with the idea that an MP has had to resign. She lost her seat once before, she'll cope. And she should have had enough foresight to realise the consequences of her actions. If she lacks that, she's not bright enough to be an MP anyway.
Of course I cry about that. You are right, but it just does not make me other than miserable.

I have no problems with condemning her for being stupid, when it comes to it I can tell people that they are being stupid but I worry about it. I had to tell off a patient for sitting next to another patient and chatting to her. I had to tell her she needed to maintain social distancing and wear a mask. Being mean does not make me happy even though I know it was the right thing to do. But I still don't sleep at night. Doing the right thing is not easy.
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Old 2nd October 2020, 11:48 PM   #1400
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Originally Posted by Mr Fied View Post
The number of people wearing face coverings on London buses seems to be reducing by the day.

Drivers have been told not to refuse travel and cause a confrontation.

The p.a. announcements say the transport system is being policed by the Met and TfL inspectors. I have yet to see any of these on any bus I have been driving.

As for the introduction of "school service" buses, that is a complete joke, which might be funny if it wasn't so dangerous.
Fortunately it hasn't gotten this bad yet here, but we're pretty much in the same boat as the London drivers. We're to politely point out the rules in case passengers board without face coverings, but abstain from any confrontation.

Any such confrontation is to be undertaken by the ticket inspectors, but there's only a handful of them, and they're very rarely seen in the evening and on weekends
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