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Tags Allais Effect , Dark Flow , relativity , Theory of Relativity

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Old 17th April 2020, 06:17 AM   #2761
Bjarne
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
So? Do you think the laws of nature care what you personally can, or cannot, imagine?
I am asking the same question
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Old 17th April 2020, 06:29 AM   #2762
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Irrelevant to my post stating textbook relativity: The observer with the ruler or clock sees a unchanging ruler or clock [no time dilation or length contraction]. Other observers measure changes [time dilation or length contraction]

And still wrong about Einstein and the Lorentz transformation. History of special relativity
The historical fact is that Einstein did not know about the Lorentz transformation. Einstein only knew about Lorentz's approximation. Einstein derived the Lorentz transformation in his 1905 paper.
Or you are insulting Einstein, who is recognized as a genius, as being unable to understand the Lorentz transformation after 1905.

This is the Lorentz transformation which is only a transformation between 2 inertial observers. There is no fantasy of "local processes, involving the nature of space and energy".
This is time dilation. Anyone capable of putting v = 0 into the equation will see that all observers see their own clocks ticking away with no time dilation. They will measure that observers with v > 0 have clocks that tick slower.
This is length contraction. Ditto is you put v = 0 and v > 0 into the equation.
Thus my post.

If Einstein didn't know about the Lorentz transformations would he had come up with special relativity?

Unfortunately it’s only been in recent years the truth of history has become more clear so even physicists will give a completely false answer.
"The influence of the crucial Michelson-Morley experiment on my own efforts has been rather indirect. I learned of it through H.A. Lorentz's decisive investigations of the electrodynamics of moving bodies (1895) with which I was acquainted before developing the special theory of relativity. Lorentz's basic assumption of an aether at rest seemed to me not convincing in itself and also for the reason that it was leading to an interpretation of the Michelson-Morley experiment which seemed to me artifical" - Albert Einstein 1952, in a letter to Robert Shankland

People used to say he didn’t know about the Michelson Morley and now I see a familiar name here claiming he didn’t know about the Lorentz Transform. They may not just be grossly ignorant of history, but could simply choosing some sort of pedantic hyper specific definition of the Lorentz Transform.
In the same vein, the exact set of equations we use and call “Maxwell’s equations” weren’t directly from Maxwell, they were from Heaviside’s simplifications. So if you wanted to play misleading word games you could say that nobody knew Maxwell’s Equations before Heaviside, including Maxwell.
Using that same sort of deceptive weird language game, one could claim Einstein didn’t know the Lorentz Transform and feel justified. I don’t think they are justified in doing so, I’m simply commenting on the human capacity for self-delusion and hero worship.
The truth of the matter is the Larmor came up with the first mathematical representation of the Lorentz Transform and Lorentz only made it more general.
The answer to your question is NO. Absolutely not!

https://www.quora.com/If-Einstein-di...ial-relativity
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Old 17th April 2020, 06:33 AM   #2763
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
It is relevant to your original scenario that you repeated recently.
The simple fact is a time interval = end time - start time.
The simple fact is that a distance is calculated by speed * a time interval (not a time on a clock unless the start time is 0).
How do A and B use their clocks to "measured the time it took a photon to travel 13 billion. from the very first star and to us"?
The obvious answer is that they cannot because all you allow them to measure is the end time.
Only if you do not believe in concurrency. But this is a matter of faith - not science.
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Old 17th April 2020, 06:39 AM   #2764
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Right, it is impossible to prove reality deformation, - simply because you have no way (except logic and math) to compare before and after or A's reality compared to B's reality.
However this is how the Lorentz equation can be understood. There are simply 2 options, the prevailing and the simplified new version.
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Old 17th April 2020, 06:48 AM   #2765
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Your imagination does not matter especially when it leads you astray into the obviously ridiculous idea that there is a physical deformation of a ruler - simultaneous measurements from different observers will make the ruler deform to different lengths at the same time !
Imagination is more important than knowledge. i think you should try to imagine how it would be to jump from one Lorentz transformation to another. Let say you is walking round a lake (everyday). Now we slow time with a factor 3 (due to deeper / stronger gravity) (let say deeper gravity for whole earth) , will everything still be the same ? - and what about the speed of your thought ? - Will you see no evidence at all. And does the new reality make sense?"
And now why is your clock really ticking slower ? - are you then also moving slower ? and thinking 3 times slower?
Which process is responsible that your clock in fact ticks 3 times slower compared to yesterday ?
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Old 17th April 2020, 09:05 AM   #2766
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Imagination is more important than knowledge. i think you should try to imagine how it would be to jump from one Lorentz transformation to another. Let say you is walking round a lake (everyday). Now we slow time with a factor 3 (due to deeper / stronger gravity) (let say deeper gravity for whole earth) , will everything still be the same ? - and what about the speed of your thought ? - Will you see no evidence at all. And does the new reality make sense?"
And now why is your clock really ticking slower ? - are you then also moving slower ? and thinking 3 times slower?
Which process is responsible that your clock in fact ticks 3 times slower compared to yesterday ?
Bjarne, this is a nonsense scenario. And, imagination is important, but it is not more important than knowledge. Try to drive through bust city traffic and relay on imagination rather than knowledge.

Hans
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Old 17th April 2020, 09:36 AM   #2767
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Bjarne, this is a nonsense scenario. And, imagination is important, but it is not more important than knowledge. Try to drive through bust city traffic and relay on imagination rather than knowledge.

Hans
The point is that the Lorentz transformation not is the history only about motion of 1 observer relative to c, and another observer watching. - But rather the history about reality and the fact that
  1. first at all time can tend zero
  2. next true energy can proportionally tend to infinity
  3. as well well as the ruler proportionally tend to infinity.
Which mean reality transformation.

Assuming this will bring huge coherence to science. However first you must dare to imagine this could be true.
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Old 17th April 2020, 10:02 AM   #2768
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
The point is that the Lorentz transformation not is the history only about motion of 1 observer relative to c, and another observer watching. - But rather the history about reality and the fact that
  1. first at all time can tend zero
  2. next true energy can proportionally tend to infinity
  3. as well well as the ruler proportionally tend to infinity.
Which mean reality transformation.

Assuming this will bring huge coherence to science. However first you must dare to imagine this could be true.
Sorry, I prefer evidence.

Hans
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Old 17th April 2020, 10:25 AM   #2769
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
The point is that the Lorentz transformation not is the history only about motion of 1 observer relative to c, and another observer watching. - But rather the history about reality and the fact that
  1. first at all time can tend zero
  2. next true energy can proportionally tend to infinity
  3. as well well as the ruler proportionally tend to infinity.
Which mean reality transformation.

Assuming this will bring huge coherence to science. However first you must dare to imagine this could be true.
The ruler tends to zero, not infinity. That's the second time you've made that fundamental error, despite having it pointed out the first time.
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Old 17th April 2020, 04:25 PM   #2770
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And yet another crushing blow to GR. Not;

Detection of the Schwarzschild precession in the orbit of the star S2 near the Galactic centre massive black hole
GRAVITY Collaboration
https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/fu...a37813-20.html

Paper is free access.
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Old 17th April 2020, 11:29 PM   #2771
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
No.

The effects of time-dilation are well explained in TR. Among other things, you cannot assume that events that are simultaneous in one reference frame will also be simultaneous in another.

All you are showing with your thought experiment is that you have not understood TR.

Hans
You don't know what I have understood
The fact that a external observer experiences a event with delay relative to a local observer, is logical, and easy to understand...... however it is indeed irrelevant for the local Lorentz transformation process.
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Old 17th April 2020, 11:33 PM   #2772
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
The ruler tends to zero, not infinity.
In TR yes, -however the value of this is nothing more as fatamorganas.
Such are irrelevant if you really want to understand what the Lorentz transformation process. really show you.
Think about on of the consequences of your statement is that a photons must be everywhere at the same time, - this is contradictory nonsense.
Even kindergarten student will never accepts such crap.

Quote:
That's the second time you've made that fundamental error, despite having it pointed out the first time.
This is fourth time you reveal not to you haven't understood MTR , despite having it pointed out the many time. The fact that external observers see something different as a local observer, is irrelevant, - it is logic why it happens , and it is a misunderstood that this is how to interpret the essence of the Lorentz Transformations
The Lorentz Transformations is not a history of how to understand fatamorganas, - but a tool how to understand a transformation process, that included space, time , energy, mass, and distance, - which mean the rulers. - As you see all the incidences in reality. The true level of energy is the power of this process. The elastic structure os space, is the bulding materiel. Its is always the history of creating mass, - and how space pay the price.

Last edited by Bjarne; 17th April 2020 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 18th April 2020, 07:23 AM   #2773
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
You don't know what I have understood
So true, so true . However, I do know a lot of things you haven't understood.

Quote:
The fact that a external observer experiences a event with delay relative to a local observer, is logical, and easy to understand...... however it is indeed irrelevant for the local Lorentz transformation process.
A Lorenz transformation is not a process. It is a method of mathematics.

Hans
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Old 18th April 2020, 09:30 AM   #2774
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
A Lorenz transformation is not a process. It is a method of mathematics.

Hans
If that was so simple, clocks would not tick relative slower / faster.... Science is about cause -> effect..
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Old 19th April 2020, 03:05 PM   #2775
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Exclamation Persists with abysmal ignorance of relativity and Einstein

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
...
Persists with abysmal ignorance of relativity and Einstein's 1905 paper deriving special relativity.
Special relativity. Albert Einstein wrote a paper in 1905 starting with 2 postulates and derived SR including the Lorentz transformation. This is textbook relativity.
Einstein knew about the Michelson-Morley experiment indirectly as you quoted from Einstein. He knew it from Lorentz's 1895 paper which did not have the Lorentz transformation. That was in Lorentz's 1904 paper which Einstein did not read before 1905.

It is Einstein who wrote that he did not know about Lorentz's 1904 paper. You should know this because I gave you:
ON THE ELECTRODYNAMICS OF MOVING BODIES By A. Einstein June 30, 1905. An English transaction with footnotes by Einstein, Albert (1923).
Quote:
Examples of this sort, together with the unsuccessful attempts to discover any motion of the earth relatively to the “light medium,” suggest that the phenomena of electrodynamics as well as of mechanics possess no properties corresponding to the idea of absolute rest. They suggest rather that, as has already been shown to the first order of small quantities, the same laws of electrodynamics and optics will be valid for all frames of reference for which the equations of mechanics hold good.1
...
Footnotes
1. The preceding memoir by Lorentz was not at this time known to the author.
The "as has already been shown to the first order of small quantities" is Lorentz's 1895 paper.

Last edited by Reality Check; 19th April 2020 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 19th April 2020, 03:26 PM   #2776
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Question How do A and B get a time interval with no start time

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
Only if you do not believe in concurrency.
Irrelevant "concurrency" nonsense.
How do A and B use their clocks to "measured the time it took a photon to travel 13 billion. from the very first star and to us"?
This is a simple question to answer: How did they measure the start time of 1 or 2 or whatever number of photons you want from the star? Obviously they can measure the end time. Subtract the 2 and that gives a time interval. Then as you write (time interval)*(speed of light) gives a distance to the star - in a non-expanding universe but that does not matter..

Last edited by Reality Check; 19th April 2020 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 19th April 2020, 03:28 PM   #2777
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
...
I stated textbook relativity that you are still ignoring when you should have learned it maybe 10 years ago!
That is even worse, Bjarne. No physical changes (which is what deformation means) happen in relativity to rulers or clocks. The observer with the ruler or clock sees a unchanging ruler or clock. Other observers measure changes.
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Old 19th April 2020, 03:34 PM   #2778
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Question Do you believe that a length can have different values at the same time

Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
...
Imagination without knowledge or that ignores knowledge (e.g. of special relativity) results in incorrect fantasies. Imagination that ignores the physical consequences of what you state is just a fantasy.
An example showing that a physical deformation of a ruler by moving observers is obviously ridiculous (a length that is different values at the same time).

Do you believe that a length can have different values at the same time?
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Old 19th April 2020, 03:40 PM   #2779
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Question What happens to Alice and her spacecraft when L < a neutron

An example showing that a physical deformation of a ruler by moving observers is obviously ridiculous (a length that is different values at the same time).
An extension to this example: Ethel is traveling so close to the speed of light that she measures Alice's spacecraft to have a length smaller than a neutron or proton. According to you, Alice and her spacecraft are physically contracted into that length. N.B. Ethel can have a speed that makes Alice's spacecraft even smaller!

What happens to Alice and her spacecraft when her physical L is less than a neutron radius?
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Old 19th April 2020, 03:55 PM   #2780
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
A Lorenz transformation is not a process. It is a method of mathematics.
The "local Lorentz transformation process" fantasy has another mistake. When we say "local" in relativity, it is generally what is local to a single observer. For a single observer, the Lorentz transformation does not apply because it needs 2 different inertial frames of reference!
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Old 19th April 2020, 04:00 PM   #2781
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Originally Posted by Bjarne View Post
If that was so simple, clocks would not tick relative slower / faster.... Science is about cause -> effect..
That is wrong, Bjarne. The Lorenz transformation has a cause (the speed difference between inertial observers) and effects (length contraction, time dilation, etc.).
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Old 19th April 2020, 05:24 PM   #2782
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This is really basic and simple stuff that Bjarne's getting wrong...still getting wrong, year after year. Is he trying to sell books or something? I am reminded of Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

...ah, indeed he is. He's trying to sell a 69 page book for €35.00.
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Old 20th April 2020, 06:08 AM   #2783
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Over half a buck per page. Kindergarten math!
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Old 20th April 2020, 01:53 PM   #2784
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Do you think he’s ever sold a copy?
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Old 20th April 2020, 06:25 PM   #2785
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Do you think he’s ever sold a copy?
I've been wondering, but admitting he was wrong with even the very basics won't do wonders for sales.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 05:49 AM   #2786
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So - did the theory of Relativity die or not?
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Old 23rd June 2020, 06:49 AM   #2787
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
So - did the theory of Relativity die or not?
Nope.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:04 AM   #2788
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
So - did the theory of Relativity die or not?
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Nope.
Didn’t even “begin to fall apart”.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:40 AM   #2789
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Is it 2016 yet?
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Old 23rd June 2020, 09:57 AM   #2790
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Is it 2016 yet?
On Planet-X it is always 2016.
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Old 23rd June 2020, 03:00 PM   #2791
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The launch of ACES (Atomic Clock Ensemble in Space) is still expected this year. ISS Utilization: ACES (Atomic Clock Ensemble in Space) / PHARAO
Quote:
The planned mission duration is 1.5 to 3 years. During the first six weeks, the functionality of the clocks and of MWL will be tested. Then, a period of 6 months will be devoted to the characterization and performance evaluation of the clocks.
So probably 2021 before the project scientists get data. Usually there is a 6 month embargo period so that the people who worked hard on a mission can get first dibs on publishing. So late 2021 for data to be available to the public. But as this and other threads have shown, Bjarne is totally unequipped to do anything with the data.
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Old 25th June 2020, 12:18 PM   #2792
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The launch of ACES (Atomic Clock Ensemble in Space) is still expected this year. ISS Utilization: ACES (Atomic Clock Ensemble in Space) / PHARAO

So probably 2021 before the project scientists get data. Usually there is a 6 month embargo period so that the people who worked hard on a mission can get first dibs on publishing. So late 2021 for data to be available to the public. But as this and other threads have shown, Bjarne is totally unequipped to do anything with the data.
Well, to be fair, we can't blame him for the data being delayed. Not that it matters, because, as you say, he won't understand the data anyway.

Hans
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Old 25th June 2020, 03:53 PM   #2793
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Still waiting..........
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Old 25th June 2020, 04:28 PM   #2794
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Still waiting..........
You really should find something better to do with your time.
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