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Old 17th January 2009, 11:52 PM   #441
RemieV
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Originally Posted by Gr8wight View Post
It's a win in that she gets to tell people that she would have passed the test had the protocol not been invalidated by the testers, and as long as the testers continue to drag their feet, the point cannot effectively be argued against. Seeing as we all know she cannot actually pass the test, she is in the best possible position. Her current situation is the woo-woo's dream. The Professor would be in heaven if he were in such a situation.
I doubt Ms. Landin sees that way, as she often writes to ask about progress in her file.
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Old 21st January 2009, 12:45 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
The process seemed to have stalled because there was not enough test material - letters, rings, etc. - that met the qualifications.

However, information from the Carina Landin negotiations seems difficult to get. We may have to live with the fact that her claim can't be properly tested.
Yeah, as I re-read this thread and Ms. L's sundry protocols, it becomes more and more apparant that she was just trying to game the process by making the test procedure impossible to implement. First it was "things that were important to people," then "diaries less than x years old," and then "letters from dead people," and then "letters from people who died less than five years ago and wrote to someone who is still alive," and then who the hell knows what...

How could a woo ever possibly figure out that they have a paranormal power if the power is that narrow? Did she spend years shaking down her friends for letters from the recently dead?
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Old 21st January 2009, 12:46 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
I doubt Ms. Landin sees that way, as she often writes to ask about progress in her file.
So does that mean that the application process is still ongoing?
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Old 21st January 2009, 02:32 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Klaymore View Post
How could a woo ever possibly figure out that they have a paranormal power if the power is that narrow? Did she spend years shaking down her friends for letters from the recently dead?
It's a matter of 'rationalising' that when they get something wrong, it must be something about that which impacts their ability. It's very hard to get to the point where they must admit the power isn't real. However, the more they test like this, and eliminate the various things that they think are outside their abilities, then eventually they should reach a point when there is only one clear conclusion.
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Old 28th January 2009, 02:13 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by chillzero View Post
[T]he more they test like this, and eliminate the various things that they think are outside their abilities, then eventually they should reach a point when there is only one clear conclusion.
Yeah, but that's one hell of a big SHOULD...
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Old 12th March 2009, 09:26 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by RemieV View Post
... she often writes to ask about progress in her file.
So what do you answer her? Is there anything we* can do to make this happen? If you can't find enough letters, then maybe we can ask one of our tabloids to run an article about the test in which we ask people to send in letters that fit the specifications?

* People at the Swedish VoF forum.
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Old 12th March 2009, 09:45 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by calle555 View Post
So what do you answer her? Is there anything we* can do to make this happen? If you can't find enough letters, then maybe we can ask one of our tabloids to run an article about the test in which we ask people to send in letters that fit the specifications?

* People at the Swedish VoF forum.
Calle555, I took the liberty of forwarding your post to RemieV.

JREF Staff does not necessarily visit the forum regularly. If you have a specific, helpful proposal - and I think the above qualifies - you can contact them directly at challenge@randi.org
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Old 13th March 2009, 11:53 AM   #448
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By now I think we can safely regard the first results as final and having conformed to the protocol.

The wording in the protocol (this is from memory) said that the diaries should be less than whatever number of years of age "if possible". The fact that there hasn't been a retest yet tells me that it was impossible to come up with enough diaries that were younger than the specified age.

Unless there is some reason that it would have been possible before but isn't now (like a reason we can't re-use some of them from the first test).

ETA: In other words, the protocol said the younger age would be nice, but the issue wasn't a deal-breaker. If the age of the diaries is the reason she failed, then it's her own fault for not making that an absolute requirement in the protocol.
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Old 13th March 2009, 02:31 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
By now I think we can safely regard the first results as final and having conformed to the protocol.

The wording in the protocol (this is from memory) said that the diaries should be less than whatever number of years of age "if possible". The fact that there hasn't been a retest yet tells me that it was impossible to come up with enough diaries that were younger than the specified age.

Unless there is some reason that it would have been possible before but isn't now (like a reason we can't re-use some of them from the first test).

ETA: In other words, the protocol said the younger age would be nice, but the issue wasn't a deal-breaker. If the age of the diaries is the reason she failed, then it's her own fault for not making that an absolute requirement in the protocol.
The protocol was not adhered to in the high standards the JREF sets. Hence, Randi said there will be a re-test.
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Old 15th March 2009, 09:25 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
The protocol was not adhered to in the high standards the JREF sets.
Does that mean there are other diaries that are younger? If so, then why is it taking this long to do the re-test?

Was there some other problem besides the age of the diaries?

Quote:
Hence, Randi said there will be a re-test.
That's fine. If it's true that no one paid attention to the age of the diaries despite that sentence or two in the protocol about the issue, then she should get a re-test, by all means.

The question I've been asking for months now still hasn't been answered. Was it "possible" (given the library's willingness to lend the diaries) to do the test with all younger-aged diaries? If not, then the protocol was indeed followed.
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Old 15th March 2009, 12:30 PM   #451
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The re-test uses letters instead of diaries.
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Old 15th March 2009, 12:47 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
Does that mean there are other diaries that are younger? If so, then why is it taking this long to do the re-test?

Was there some other problem besides the age of the diaries?
I do not know the answers to the first two questions.

No. The age of diaries was specified inadequately. The testers used diaries that did not fit the specified age.

Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
That's fine. If it's true that no one paid attention to the age of the diaries despite that sentence or two in the protocol about the issue, then she should get a re-test, by all means.

The question I've been asking for months now still hasn't been answered. Was it "possible" (given the library's willingness to lend the diaries) to do the test with all younger-aged diaries? If not, then the protocol was indeed followed.
All I can say is that Randi agreed to a re-test and the vast majority of JREF Forum members agreed that the protocol was not followed with the necessary precision.

Whether Ms. Landin did better on the diaries which were technically too old and whether that says something about her ability and credibility is entirely up for discussion - of which I will have no part, since the results were indeed self-evident.

However, I am looking forward to the re-test and I am glad some folks in Sweden seem to be driving this process towards a resolution.
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Old 16th March 2009, 05:39 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
Does that mean there are other diaries that are younger? If so, then why is it taking this long to do the re-test?
As I understand it this is not a new problem for this test. The JREF delegates actual testing to an organisation more convenient for the applicant. In this case, it seems that the organisation in question is not exactly the best at communicating what is going on. The JREF didn't even know when the test was taking place until it actually happened:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...73#post2033273
From the history of this test, it seems entirely possible that the JREF doesn't know any more than the rest of us about what progress is being made.
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Old 16th March 2009, 01:27 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
No. The age of diaries was specified inadequately. The testers used diaries that did not fit the specified age.
I understand that. The wording of the protocol said that they should use the younger diaries if possible. Meaning, if it wasn't possible, the older ones were OK. If it wasn't possible, then the protocol was followed.

Ms. Landin did not agree to a protocol that specified the diaries must be the younger age.


Quote:
However, I am looking forward to the re-test and I am glad some folks in Sweden seem to be driving this process towards a resolution.
Likewise. A re-test with letters will put an end to the whole thing.

I applaud Randi for agreeing to a re-test, but I don't think he was obliged to do so (at least based on the info I've heard).

My point is that if there weren't enough younger-aged diaries available (and there seems not to be, since the re-test is going to be with letters), then the original protocol was indeed followed. I know it sounds like legalistic hair-splitting, but that's the whole point of writing out a protocol and agreeing to it.

If it were a deal-breaker for Ms. Landin, she should not have agreed to the protocol as it was worded. I agree that the people conducting the test should have been more attentive to this point in the protocol, but I suspect the reason they weren't is because Ms. Landin didn't seem to think it mattered so much before the test. (Of course, I'm relying on the English translation of the protocol.)
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Old 16th March 2009, 04:43 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by JoeTheJuggler View Post
I understand that. The wording of the protocol said that they should use the younger diaries if possible. Meaning, if it wasn't possible, the older ones were OK. If it wasn't possible, then the protocol was followed.

Ms. Landin did not agree to a protocol that specified the diaries must be the younger age.



Likewise. A re-test with letters will put an end to the whole thing.

I applaud Randi for agreeing to a re-test, but I don't think he was obliged to do so (at least based on the info I've heard).

My point is that if there weren't enough younger-aged diaries available (and there seems not to be, since the re-test is going to be with letters), then the original protocol was indeed followed. I know it sounds like legalistic hair-splitting, but that's the whole point of writing out a protocol and agreeing to it.

If it were a deal-breaker for Ms. Landin, she should not have agreed to the protocol as it was worded. I agree that the people conducting the test should have been more attentive to this point in the protocol, but I suspect the reason they weren't is because Ms. Landin didn't seem to think it mattered so much before the test. (Of course, I'm relying on the English translation of the protocol.)
Joe,

I believe the concern here is that the words, "if possible" got into the original protocol at all. It was an oversight to allow that wording to be agreed to. It gave Ms. Landin an out, and she took it. This applicant's case should be presented as an example to all would-be protocol negotiators of how important it is to use specific and concrete language when writing a protocol.
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Old 29th March 2009, 10:44 PM   #456
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So the JREF messed up the Protocol!!!!!
What a joke
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Old 29th March 2009, 10:56 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by The Professor View Post
So the JREF messed up the Protocol!!!!!
What a joke
And Carina failed it in every sense, on older and newer diaries. It is a tribute to the JREF that they accepted a retest. They want to do it right.
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Old 30th March 2009, 05:55 AM   #458
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Originally Posted by The Professor View Post
So the JREF messed up the Protocol!!!!!
What a joke
Technically, the testers in Sweden only worded the protocol not carefully enough. But it was a grave mistake.



However, isn't you complaining about a protocol a textbook example of the pot calling the kettle black?
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Old 23rd July 2009, 06:35 AM   #459
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So, I gotsta' gotsta' gotsta' nudge this thread again... Are we getting any closer to re-testing Ms. Landin, Friend o'th Daid?
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Old 25th July 2009, 11:39 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by Klaymore View Post
So, I gotsta' gotsta' gotsta' nudge this thread again... Are we getting any closer to re-testing Ms. Landin, Friend o'th Daid?
I did a Google search of the forum at vof.se and didn't find anything new. I also checked her web site, and didn't find anything new. If you really want to know, you should probably E-mail her, or Sven Ove Hansson (the guy who did the first test).

Last edited by Fredrik; 25th July 2009 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 27th July 2009, 01:19 PM   #461
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Quote:
More from SVEN OVE HANSSON...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Kramer,

I have now discussed Ms. Landin's alleged powers extensively with her. What she claims to be able to do is the following:

A sitter comes to her with an object that has belonged to a dead person whom the sitter knew. She then tells the sitter about the dead person, receiving confirmation in dialog with the sitter as she goes on.

Furthermore:

1- She is NOT able to do this without a person present who knew the owner of the object.

2- It is OK that she and the sitter are placed back to back, so that they cannot see each other.

3- Video-recording of the session is OK.

4- She cannot do it without repeated feedback from the sitter. Designs in which the sitter has to be silent until she has finished talking about the object are NOT OK with her.

In my view, it will be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to perform a fair test if point #4 is accepted by us. I am therefore considering writing to her to say that she must give up point #4 if there is to be a test. What do you think?

-Sven Ove Hansson

==============================================

Yes, Sven, I agree with you. This just sounds to me like "cold reading". We need to eliminate all possibility of this before testing can take place.

-Kramer, JREF
___
It would be interesting to see if this re-test ever happens.
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Old 28th July 2009, 06:43 AM   #462
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Ok, please correct me if I am wrong - this has dragged out and my memory is not what it used to be, but I am fairly sure someone explained the cold reading issue, and why this is a deal breaker, to Ms Landin at the beginning of the process. And till she keeps on demanding to be allowed to do just that? Disregarding the whole cold reading thing: how can that ever make for self evident results? Surely she must understand by now that someone going "Gee wiz, that was almost correct! My nana did have white hair by the time she was eighty!" does not consitute a hit?

Do we think that she intends never to be retested in order to be able to claim that the failed first test was due to the "too old diaries" issue? (Even though she approved them beforehand and actually scored better on the older ones)

At first I thought she was honestly deluded, now I am starting to wonder. And Swedish to boot. I am embarrassed.
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Old 28th July 2009, 07:03 AM   #463
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hi, whatthebutlersaw.
I think you've summed up the situation nicely, judging from what I've read on this thread and the challenge app. thread itself.
Just another cold reader looking for 'outs'.
All the rest is patter, in my opinion.

edited- I've just reread your post and wonder if I haven't unintentionally misled you- my quoted post is from the very beginning of the protocol negociations.
By no means did I mean to imply the lady insists on this condition to enable cold reading today.
What I DO mean is that all negociations which deprive a cold reader of a 'sitter' are likely to come to naught, one way or another. Sorry to be misleading, whatthebutersaw.

Last edited by pakeha; 28th July 2009 at 07:08 AM. Reason: clearing up ambiguity in original posted quote, hopefully
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Old 28th July 2009, 09:19 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw View Post
Ok, please correct me if I am wrong - this has dragged out and my memory is not what it used to be, but I am fairly sure someone explained the cold reading issue, and why this is a deal breaker, to Ms Landin at the beginning of the process. And till she keeps on demanding to be allowed to do just that? Disregarding the whole cold reading thing: how can that ever make for self evident results? Surely she must understand by now that someone going "Gee wiz, that was almost correct! My nana did have white hair by the time she was eighty!" does not consitute a hit?

Do we think that she intends never to be retested in order to be able to claim that the failed first test was due to the "too old diaries" issue? (Even though she approved them beforehand and actually scored better on the older ones)

At first I thought she was honestly deluded, now I am starting to wonder. And Swedish to boot. I am embarrassed.
Cold reading of dead people? That's quite a trick. Might even qualify as paranormal.

Her demonstration had to do with guessing the gender of the writers of diaries by holding the diaries (concealed in envolopes I believe.) Cold reading has nothing to do with it.

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Old 28th July 2009, 09:44 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Chateaubriand View Post
Landin has made a comment on her website. This is en excerpt:

"After the test:

The test leader (SOH) came in and opened every envelope, marked the protocol and produced the correct answers. When it was done, my answers were compared to the correct ones and the result was 12 out of 20.

I requested to look at the eight books I missed. Unfortunately, I didn't check them that carefully and didn't personally take note of the years when they were written, who wrote them or their content.

In my view, a diary is a book in which someone has made daily notes regarding that someone's life. From a quick read-through of the eight books I missed, I remember that

1 book was a collection of recipes
1 book was a documentation regarding the mating of animals

I don't call that diaries! Afterwards, I have been given access to the archive registration numbers of the used diaries, which gives me an opportunity to check both the content and age if I want, but at the moment, I don't have the opportunity to go through them. Just before I write this, I have learned that I'm going to get the age of all the books.

I have on several occasions, verbally and by e-mail, notified SOH (I have kept the correspondence) that I don't want diaries that are older than 100 years. In spite of me explicitly expressing this, I authorized the protocol with the following text:
"Furthermore (in accordance with Landin’s wish) diaries older than the late 19th century are avoided as far as possible."
In retrospect, I shouldn't have authorized the protocol with that fuzzy writing, but since I am unsuspecting by nature, I thought that the late 19th century is only some yeras older than 100 years. A book written in 1906 is 100 years. A book written in 1896 is 110 years. The reason why I didn't want older book is that the traces disappears. An older book, that may have been handled by many, can, in my view, loose its origin.

A checking of the years of the eight books I missed showed that 5 of them were written in the following years:

1794, 1855, 1857, 1879, and 1888

In a conversation with SOH a couple of weeks ago, I asked via e-mail if SOH had found diaries from the 20th century. SOH replied:

"Yes, but some (singular in Swedish, C:s note) is from the end of the 19th century."

Question: 12th October 2005 -- Carina (Landin, C:s note) wrote

"I would appreciate if the diaries were primarily from the 20th century."

Reply from SOH 16th October 2005:

"I have spoken to the archive official. They don't want really old diaries to be unnecessary handled. A first guess is that it's easiest to get hold of books from the 19th and 20th century. I'll get back to you when I know more."

/... /

(Some paragraphs accounting for the communication between Landin, Randi and the experimenters. I have omitted them pending the result of the JREF review.)

/... /

All this is new to me and most of all strange and something that I never pursued or believed in my wildest imagination would happen, in spite of being warned by my mentor. (Sorry, this is a bit messy even in Swedish -- C)"

I would appreciate any proof reading by Swedish forum members.
Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw View Post
Ok, please correct me if I am wrong - this has dragged out and my memory is not what it used to be, but I am fairly sure someone explained the cold reading issue, and why this is a deal breaker, to Ms Landin at the beginning of the process. And till she keeps on demanding to be allowed to do just that? Disregarding the whole cold reading thing: how can that ever make for self evident results? Surely she must understand by now that someone going "Gee wiz, that was almost correct! My nana did have white hair by the time she was eighty!" does not consitute a hit?
...
Ms. Landin's test may have been a lot of things - but it surely did not seem like cold reading to me. If you want to look for more clues, poke around in this thread. Chateaubriand's posts seem a good place to start.
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Old 28th July 2009, 09:50 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by IXP View Post
Cold reading of dead people? That's quite a trick. Might even qualify as paranormal.

Her demonstration had to do with guessing the gender of the writers of diaries by holding the diaries (concealed in envolopes I believe.) Cold reading has nothing to do with it.

IXP

Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
Ms. Landin's test may have been a lot of things - but it surely did not seem like cold reading to me. If you want to look for more clues, poke around in this thread. Chateaubriand's posts seem a good place to start.
Read this post. It sounds to me like she's suggesting a new protocol.
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Old 28th July 2009, 11:48 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
Read this post. It sounds to me like she's suggesting a new protocol.
Yeah, pakeha was just noting some history there (Kramer hasn't been involved in the challenge in some time). That's a quote from years ago when they were first starting on a protocol.
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Old 28th July 2009, 12:25 PM   #468
pakeha
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Quite right, petre, and thanks.
I thought I'd cleared this up eaarlier and apologise abjectly for showing what bad copy and paste can do to the most well meaning post.
I quoted a post from the very beginning of the saga, when the lady insisted on using sitters and their feed-back.
Yes, this point was waived.
My point was that someone who relies on coldreading isn't likely to have any chance of winning a challenge in controlled circumstances, and would probably dither til the end of time, fussing over conditions, and in the end blame the failure anything and everything but her lack of psychic abilities, as actually happened.
I would be very surprised if the retest ever occurs.
Sorry if my post has thrown people off- it was never my intention.
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Old 29th July 2009, 12:04 AM   #469
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I am talking about negotiating a new protocol. According to the last news from negotiations regarding the new protocol, she now - again - insists on having a sitter. But maybe I misunderstood the post with the news.

ETA: and I now see Pakeha has cleared that point up, so that is clearer now.

And I do agree with Pakeha - someone who is so reliant on a "sitter" i.e. is cold reading, whether they realize this themselves or not, is probably not well set to do a controlled test - but on the other hand could well be an honest person who believe their own "powers". So I am reserving my judgement on that.

But I do think the requirement for mementos that are at the same time of strong attachment and generic enought to not give away something about their owners and "not too old to lose vibrations" does look designed to invalidate any protocol: how do we measure emotional attachment? During negotiations we have had diaries - I kept a diary all through my youth and when I got older I threw it out with some other paper trash. I didn't even bother to burn it. How do we know a diary was actually important to someone?

Wedding rings have been mentioned, and again: I am very happily married, yet could not tell you at this moment where in my house my wedding ring is. The ring does not represent my marriage to me. No one who does not know me well would be able to guess that the object that I most strongly connect with my marriage is a Lego pirate. And offering the Lego pirate as an object to read says far too much about me already: "This person is childish and likes to construct things and read adventures - is this making sense to you?"

How do we know a ring was in itself "infused" with strong emotion by the wearer?

Letters - the same - we can't know if the letter itself was imbued with much importance by its owner, and to boot can't know if (if we believe in "vibrations" or whatever it's called) - sender or recipient is the most "prevalent" on a given letter.

To me, the "Strong Emotional Attachment"- requirement simply makes this untestable as humans are far to diverse and unpredictable to be trusted to have infused a common object with a certain amount of an unquantifiable emotion.

Last edited by whatthebutlersaw; 29th July 2009 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 29th July 2009, 12:41 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
If you really want to know, you should probably E-mail her, or Sven Ove Hansson (the guy who did the first test).
I really want to know, but I don't particularly want to engage with Ms. Landin, unless it's here on the forum. Mr. Hansson, maybe, but it's much more fun to talk about it here and keep this thread alive. I have a sentimental weakness for situations like this, in which the appilcant takes an initial test in a relatively short timeframe, then cries foul and spends years and years and years "negotiating" a second protocol.

Naturally, the second time the applicant's not stupid enough to agree to an actual protocol, and there ensues much waffling. I love waffles.
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Old 30th July 2009, 12:59 AM   #471
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Thanks for the clemency, whatthebutlersaw and once again, sorry for causing confusion with my inadequate posting skills.
I see the 'emotional attachment' condition as do you, a most effective impediment to testing under controlled conditions.
I'm new to all this and I'm still astonished by the utter predictability of the failed claimants' reactions.
And like Klaymore, I enjoy waffles. Pass the maple syrup, please.
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Old 14th August 2009, 07:45 PM   #472
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Swedish -> English translation

Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
I did a Google search of the forum at vof.se and didn't find anything new. I also checked her web site, and didn't find anything new. If you really want to know, you should probably E-mail her, or Sven Ove Hansson (the guy who did the first test).
If anyone wishes a translation from Swedish into English I am available for that. Just PM me. VisionFromFeeling = Swedish

Originally Posted by whatthebutlersaw View Post
At first I thought she was honestly deluded, now I am starting to wonder. And Swedish to boot. I am embarrassed.
I beg your pardon?

From Carina's website:
Quote:
Om jag t ex nämner att personen visar mig en kjol, så förutsätter jag att hon visar den för att hon tycker om att gå i kjol, men det kan vara tvärtom, men det förstår jag inte.

En kvinna visar mig långa naglar med smuts under. Då tolkar jag det som om att hon hade långa naglar med smuts under, men hon kanske menar att hon gör allt för att inte få smuts under naglarna. Sådan information går inte att tolka.
Originally Posted by Translation
If I for instance mention that the person shows me a skirt, then I assume that she is showing it to me because she likes wearing a skirt, but the opposite might be true, but I don't understand that.

A woman shows me long fingernails with dirt underneath. Then I interpret it that she had long fingernails with dirt underneath them, but maybe she implies that she does all she can to not get dirt under her nails. That kind of information can't be interpreted.
So when she is shown visions, they can in many cases be interpreted in either of two ways. That what she sees applies, or that the opposite of what she sees applies, and she admits that she can have difficulties interpreting which is the case. I do admire her efforts in composing good psychic readings, it sure sounds complicated and I would not take on the challenge.

There are pages on her website where she talks about the JREF test. Would anyone care for a translation? I'd be happy to.

Last edited by VisionFromFeeling; 14th August 2009 at 08:02 PM.
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Old 15th August 2009, 01:46 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling View Post
...
There are pages on her website where she talks about the JREF test. Would anyone care for a translation? I'd be happy to.
That is a kind offer, VisionFromFeeling.

However, I'd prefer Ms. Landin agreeing to another test and delivering some data as to her ability being real - or not.
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Old 17th August 2009, 02:16 AM   #474
buzz lightyear
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Originally Posted by GzuzKryzt View Post
That is a kind offer, VisionFromFeeling.

However, I'd prefer Ms. Landin agreeing to another test and delivering some data as to her ability being real - or not.
Data hey GZ, still trying to bang those round pegs into the square holes.

The woman says she has visions, impressions, fleeting images or whatever you want to call it. And you want to grind some data out of them so you can tick the box yes or no.
All that is being demonstrated by this fiasco is the uselessness of the protocols required by JREF.

For instance, if say she correctly "guessed" 18 out 20, is that proof?
From that "data" you would believe she had an ability? If that is the case then you are more gullible than most of the clowns in here.

If she could do.... ONE.....and provide information accurately that it was impossible for her to know. Then you would start to unravel the truth in her claims. Intimate details not data is where you will find your proof.

What am I saying????????.........that would ruin the Randi show,... Nah.... continue as you were.
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Old 17th August 2009, 02:25 AM   #475
GzuzKryzt
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
...
The woman says she has visions, impressions, fleeting images or whatever you want to call it.
...
Hi buzz. She does say that. And more.

What I am interested is a way to find out if whatever she experiences is anything more than imagination or the interpretation thereof. If it is anything more than "voices in the head", if you will. If it is anything more than her making stuff up.
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Old 4th November 2009, 02:15 PM   #476
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Do anyone know whats happen in this case??? Alison, you must know something. Is it going to be a retest? Its over three year since she took the first one, has she back off?
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Old 5th November 2009, 01:58 PM   #477
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear View Post
For instance, if say she correctly "guessed" 18 out 20, is that proof?
From that "data" you would believe she had an ability?
She would have successfully done what she claimed she could do (which was 16 out of 20 or better).
If she did it twice in a row, then she would pass the challenge.
The neat thing about an objective test with an agreed-upon protocol is that either she does what she claims or she doesn't, and either way we all know it.
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Old 5th November 2009, 06:13 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by buzz lightyear
For instance, if say she correctly "guessed" 18 out 20, is that proof?
From that "data" you would believe she had an ability? If that is the case then you are more gullible than most of the clowns in here.

If she could do.... ONE.....and provide information accurately that it was impossible for her to know. Then you would start to unravel the truth in her claims. Intimate details not data is where you will find your proof.
The problem with using one data point, particularly given the circumstantial controls that you (don't) suggest, is that the scope of "impossible for her to know" information is completely personal. You know nothing of me and I of you, yet I'd be willing to bet that at least one of the statements in this list below is correct and that I had no way of knowing it before posting them:

- You are male.
- You are between 20 and 40.
- You have made a significant purchase on credit card that you have later regretted.
- You have had an unhappy relationship at some point in the past.
- You were deeply upset when a relative passed away.

As I don't know you, you are entirely correct in stating that I have no way of knowing if any of those are true, but the odds are in my favor that they are - and that's the exact problem with your logic, "odds." Those five statements are very general and, taken in total, would apply to a large percentage of the population - taken singularly, at least one of them is sure to apply (I'd wager a fair amount on #3, for example). Technically this is "information that I couldn't have known" (for sure) was accurate, but the numbers suggest quite strongly that I've made at least one hit in five. If (through some strange coincidence), none of the five statements apply to you in any way, they certainly apply to someone else. These statements and many others like them form the initial premise of a trick referred to as "cold reading," more information on which can be found here: http://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html

Under the premises you've stated, I would win Mr. Randi's million dollars - given that there are much better cold readers out there than myself, someone would have won it years ago. Judging the scope of "information that is known" is far too personal of a measurement to be accurately stated, and certainly too personal of one to be used in any sort of scientific (or as scientific as the paranormal gets, bear in mind that we're not doing pure science here) test. The odds (there's that problematic word again) suggest that we can agree on some information that I certainly wouldn't know about you, your address and birthday coming to mind (though I have 1 in 365 odds of getting the birthday correct) as examples, but nevertheless one would need to actually possess psychic powers to figure out precisely what I didn't know about someone, or couldn't figure out from meeting them. What we know and don't know is constantly changing as well, if I were to glance over your post history I'm fairly convinced I could accurately determine your gender, for example - but without taking that step I don't know that. More importantly for testing purposes, you have no way of knowing if I haven't done that.

The better way to run a test of this nature, instead of establishing what I don't know would be to set a list of criteria that I (or whatever paranormal entity does the legwork) must find out through my paranormal means. Here, for example, are a few things I would contribute to a list of "things people don't know about MattC:"

- I considered relocating to Milan full-time last year.
- I am rather heavily invested into banking futures. (well, maybe my broker knows this)
- I thought about taking a job in South Korea two months ago.
- I'm terrified of going to TAM.
- I, and several friends, are trying to rederive the chemical composition of Smilex.
- I'm addicted to a particular brand of iced tea.

Both of our proposed tests share the same goal (finding out something not known about someone), but the major difference between them is in scope - instead of saying "find something not known about MattC," (which would be many things, given that we haven't spoken before this) we can say "determine the five things Matt wrote down that he's certain you don't know about him on this paper." The test in this way becomes much more goal-oriented than previously, giving the target specific incidents to find and detect rather than permitting them to shoot in the dark where the odds suggest they will score at least once. Were you to come up with a list of descriptive phrases about me, I am sure some of them would be correct - which would, under the circumstances you described, win you the million.

Consider as well that "intimate details" and "data" are not completely uninclusive - in the trial I described above involving the claimant attempting to locate those "intimate details" about me, several attempts at figuring them out would constitute "data" on the experiment. If the claimant could determine those five things in an agreed-upon number of guesses, they would succeed at the test and move on to the final test (which has a purpose as well, though not particularly relevant here. I'll be happy to discuss it with you in a seperate thread if you like).

~ Matt
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Old 8th November 2009, 03:31 PM   #479
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Disclaimer: I have not read this entire thread.

How could there not be enough hints in a person's diary to be able to determine the person's sex?

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Old 8th November 2009, 09:41 PM   #480
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The diaries were sealed so that Carina couldn't even see the handwriting. I am sure there were plenty of clues--they just weren't available to her at the time.
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