All things Trump + Russia Part 4 - Page 11

The Shrike · 7th August 2018, 08:35 AM

Conspiring with a foreign power (and an adversary) to disrupt the integrity of a US election sure does sound like a crime to me.

Giordano · 7th August 2018, 09:04 AM

What amazes me most is how this issue has become focused on the legality of the meeting (no doubt in response to efforts by the Trump/Republican spin machine). I am in the camp that a significant number of actual laws were broken. But even more we now have a confirmed and self-admitted case of the POTUS's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager meeting with a representative of a hostile state specifically in order to sway the US Presidential election in favor of Trump. Trump Sr. most likely knew about it in advance, but whether he did or not, he undeniably (by his own statements) lied repeatedly about it later to to cover up the real purpose of the meetings. As did Trump Jr., who repeatedly lie about it for the same purpose, again as documented through his own public statements (including lies in front of a Congressional hearing while under oath).

Indeed the Russians did subsequently provide substantial assistance to Trump's campaign by the very means that were the topic of that meeting, making public damaging emails obtained by illegal hacking as well as heavily infiltrating social media and other Internet sites to generate false spin against Clinton and to favor Trump. Trump Sr. himself called on the Russians to intensify their release of the damaging hacked emails and the Russians immediately did so. None of this is speculation - it is all in the public record.

Putin himself has admitted to favoring Trump in the campaign and it is clear that significant portions of the Russian government mobilized appropriately.

I am simply flabbergasted! It is now well documented that Trump's campaign had multiple contacts with agents of an enemy government with the specific purpose of using their help to alter the outcome of a US election. And Russia did just that. Further Trump has subsequently and inexplicably heavily favored Russia in terms of foreign policy at the expense of our traditional allies and the advice of many of his own colleagues. The quid-pro-qup is difficult to deny. Yet somehow Trump retains a substantial core of public support and most of the Republican leadership either think this outrageous moral and treasonous behavior is either okay, or they are too afraid to speak out against it. Giving up their patriotism for a 15% tax cut and a Supreme Court pick.

Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil?

We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?

Giordano · 7th August 2018, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by The Shrike

Conspiring with a foreign power (and an adversary) to disrupt the integrity of a US election sure does sound like a crime to me.

Treason is a crime. In fact specifically listed in the US Constitution.

Typical dictionary definition:
the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the legal government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance.
It is difficult not to see Trump's and his campaign's actions as matching this definition. let alone the more generic definition
Betrayal of a trust, treachery.

The more restrictive 18 US Code definition:
Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

Do Trump's actions fit the "giving them aid and comfort definition?" Well after their strong and material support of his election he heavily and inexplicably favors Russia and their murderous dictator Putin in his foreign policy and in his public announcements, in sharp contrast to virtually all other US and allied leaders. And his election itself clearly was what the Russians most desired.

It is certainly treason and treachery by my definition, whether or not it perfectly matches 18 US Code.

LSSBB · 7th August 2018, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Giordano

Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil?

We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?

Short answer yes.

But for different reasons between the public and the leadership.

The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn.

The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level.

There are no heroes left in DC.

Hlafordlaes · 7th August 2018, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by Giordano

... Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil? ... We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?

Originally Posted by Giordano

... It is certainly treason and treachery by my definition, whether or not it perfectly matches 18 US Code.

Now is the time for all good men. Yet I struggle to think of any line to follow that which is not a statement of wishful thinking, sorry to admit. Or, at least, that is the sensation, when words have lost their meaning, reason sheds little light, and good will seems so elusive, even illusory. ... For now, I've run out of excuses for not coming to any sort of aid, and avoid mirrors and that pest, Jiminy Cricket. Getting old, by golly, praying for some magical oomph.

Stacyhs · 7th August 2018, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giordano
Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil?

We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Short answer yes.

But for different reasons between the public and the leadership.

The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn.

The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level.

There are no heroes left in DC.

Agreed. Confirmation bias and the inability to admit error is extremely strong in many, if not most, people. Even unimportant errors can be difficult for some to admit. A couple weeks ago, my husband and I were out with his brother and wife for dinner. My brother-in-law said something that we all reacted to with the same confusion. He'd accidentally used an incorrect word when he meant to use another as in saying "washing machine" instead of "dishwasher". When we all confirmed he'd said "washing machine", he insisted he'd said "dishwasher". All three of us heard "washing machine". He continued to deny his mistake and told his wife she needed her hearing tested. When my husband and I backed up his wife, he insisted we were mistaken, too. He never admitted to making a simple mistake the we all do from time to time.

Giordano · 7th August 2018, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Short answer yes.

But for different reasons between the public and the leadership.

The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn.

The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level.

There are no heroes left in DC.

Quote from the novel I Claudius referring to the sad state of the Roman Senate at the advent of Imperial rule:

"the only lions left in Rome are in the arena. ..."

Elagabalus · 7th August 2018, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Looks like AlaskaBushPilot has overdosed on Trump flavored Kool-Aid. I stopped reading about half way through his non-sensical rant and won't bother responding to it because it's a complete and utter waste of time. He's just gone too far down the rabbit hole.

Or he just watches a lot of the Jimmy Dore show.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore

tl;dr Jim's still pissed at Hillary for not winning (and providing him with 8 yrs. of material) that he cannot countenance anyone critiquing Trump on his show.

Stacyhs · 7th August 2018, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Elagabalus

Or he just watches a lot of the Jimmy Dore show.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore

tl;dr Jim's still pissed at Hillary for not winning (and providing him with 8 yrs. of material) that he cannot countenance anyone critiquing Trump on his show.

Never heard of him...and never wish to again.

Elagabalus · 7th August 2018, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Never heard of him...and never wish to again.

I'll admit that the JD show was kind of a shot in the dark but, as if by magic, it appears ...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...78&postcount=9

Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot

...Check out Jimmy Dore's show back in March on CIA running as democrats and a number of articles many have done since then. Dore is a hard core liberal, he isn't a Trumpist ...

Venom · 7th August 2018, 09:20 PM

As someone who regularly checks out the TYT network, Jimmy Dore is easily the most unlikable member. Almost every time he steps outside his own show and into the main TYT YouTube channel, the dislikes exceed the likes, and for good reason.

WilliamSeger · 7th August 2018, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by Venom

As someone who regularly checks out the TYT network, Jimmy Dore is easily the most unlikable member. Almost every time he steps outside his own show and into the main TYT YouTube channel, the dislikes exceed the likes, and for good reason.

Knowingly or otherwise, Dore promotes a lot of Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories about Syria, so it's not surprising to see him doing the same for the Russian collusion thing. But I wrote him off as an idiot back when he started pushing the "theory" that Building 7 might have been brought down with magical silent explosives, so I guess he's what the Russians call a useful idiot.

Drewbot · 8th August 2018, 05:30 AM

You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.

uke2se · 8th August 2018, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Drewbot

You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.

True. Maybe reality is simply a computer program and we're all stuck in a simulation.

Or maybe Trump is a criminal and his followers have managed to brainwash themselves through years of "alt-media" diets.

Confirmation bias doesn't even go far enough to explain the devotion of Trumpists.

LSSBB · 8th August 2018, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Drewbot

You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.

Personal story:

I never liked John Mayer's music. Thought he was pretentious, didn't like the tone or style. I also never really got into the Grateful Dead.

My wife is a Deadhead, travelled to watch their shows, got the fanzines. She really wanted to go to the Fare Thee Well concerts in Chicago, and couldn't get tickets. At the time we didn't have the resources to score tickets. So we watched it on Pay Per View. I really got to love the music, and became a fan myself.

Then I heard 3 of the remaining 4 band members were going to tour with John Mayer. No way, I said. That would be horrible.

My wife convinced me to go see them in Alpine Valley. I was blown away, John Mayer played so well together with them I immediately felt I was wrong all along.

I follow a few Deadhead fb sites. Lots of Deadheads still can't accept John Mayer.

I know I can be biased. That's why I keep an open mind and analyze my biases.

I haven't liked Trump since I started following news on him back in the 80s. I watched his show with my wife, and could see how he exhibited everything I knew was wrong about poor business leadership. I also read about his scams like Trump U and his charity. I followed his tweets and so on.

I was a Republican. Tax cuts strike dear to my heart. You would think I would be predisposed to accept the man if he even showed a Millard Filmore level of presidentiality. He is beneath all that. I keep an open mind, and so far the scales are so far out of his favor it isn't even funny. I don't think bias is why I don't like him as President. My anger is at how my fellow conservatives continue to twist and contort themselves and abandon their principles to defend what I feel I justifiably see is a charlatan.

How about you?

Slings and Arrows · 8th August 2018, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

How about you?

Your touching, poignant and heartfelt "personal story" has me all teary-eyed. I now realize the errors of my ways and will be voting for John Mayer in 2020. Thanks for sharing.

Hlafordlaes · 8th August 2018, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Drewbot

You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.

Interesting way of putting things. It is not that I do not like Trump; don't know the man. However, aware of history and according to exact same method of analysis I might apply to, say, radical Islam, I find his policies criminal in intent and murderous in practice. As for the Republican Party and its leaders, I apply the same criteria as those used at the Nuremberg trials, with the sole caveat that I oppose the death penalty.

Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows

Your touching, poignant and heartfelt "personal story" has me all teary-eyed. I now realize the errors of my ways and will be voting for John Mayer in 2020. Thanks for sharing.

That easy to influence? Best give power of attorney to a mature adult asap.

LSSBB · 8th August 2018, 08:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes

Interesting way of putting things. It is not that I do not like Trump; don't know the man. However, aware of history and according to exact same method of analysis I might apply to, say, radical Islam, I find his policies criminal in intent and murderous in practice. As for the Republican Party and its leaders, I apply the same criteria as those used at the Nuremberg trials, with the sole caveat that I oppose the death penalty.

That easy to influence? Best give power of attorney to a mature adult asap.

Heck, John Mayer would be a better president, probably. Courtney Love, though...

WilliamSeger · 8th August 2018, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by LSSBB

Heck, John Mayer would be a better president, probably. Courtney Love, though...

If you really want to shake things up in Washington, Joan Jett. That would rock.

ponderingturtle · 8th August 2018, 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

A civil war simply would not work. The overwhelming majority of military and law enforcement are firmly behind President Trump and he has tried to ensure that they have all the funding they require and/or all the ex-military hardware they require and by pardoning Sheriff Joe he's also given a clear signal that breaking the law in a way that aligns with his wishes is consequence free.

Any popular uprising would be immediately and brutally put down.

Yep this is how democracy dies.

acbytesla · 8th August 2018, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

Agreed. Confirmation bias and the inability to admit error is extremely strong in many, if not most, people. Even unimportant errors can be difficult for some to admit. A couple weeks ago, my husband and I were out with his brother and wife for dinner. My brother-in-law said something that we all reacted to with the same confusion. He'd accidentally used an incorrect word when he meant to use another as in saying "washing machine" instead of "dishwasher". When we all confirmed he'd said "washing machine", he insisted he'd said "dishwasher". All three of us heard "washing machine". He continued to deny his mistake and told his wife she needed her hearing tested. When my husband and I backed up his wife, he insisted we were mistaken, too. He never admitted to making a simple mistake the we all do from time to time.

I think this is a serious problem that a lot of people have. Dale Carnegie talks about the phenomenon in his famous book 'How to win friends and influence people'. I kind of believe that a course should be taught in high school about how it is ok to be wrong. Learning how to listen to being corrected and accepting those corrections gracefully.
Also teaching people not to correct others when they are wrong when it doesn't matter..(My personal flaw that I try to stop myself from doing.)

Stacyhs · 8th August 2018, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by Drewbot

You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.

Of course we understand that everyone has confirmation bias. I've seen no one here say anything to indicate otherwise. It's the level to which that bias affects one's ability to be objective that varies. Some can readily admit to and accept being wrong or making a mistake. Others cannot.

Stacyhs · 8th August 2018, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

I think this is a serious problem that a lot of people have. Dale Carnegie talks about the phenomenon in his famous book 'How to win friends and influence people'. I kind of believe that a course should be taught in high school about how it is ok to be wrong. Learning how to listen to being corrected and accepting those corrections gracefully.
Also teaching people not to correct others when they are wrong when it doesn't matter..(My personal flaw that I try to stop myself from doing.)

As an ex-teacher, I feel your pain. Old habits die hard. My pet peeve is people mispronouncing "mischievous" as "mis-chee-vee-us". I have to clench my teeth not to correct them...and I don't always succeed.

Venom · 8th August 2018, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Knowingly or otherwise, Dore promotes a lot of Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories about Syria, so it's not surprising to see him doing the same for the Russian collusion thing. But I wrote him off as an idiot back when he started pushing the "theory" that Building 7 might have been brought down with magical silent explosives, so I guess he's what the Russians call a useful idiot.

Yup. I thought he was just a sort of comic relief guy on the show, but I found out he made that ridiculous claim about 9/11 and "whatever it is, the government isn't telling the truth" or something along those lines I just put him on ignore after that. It's clear he does no real analysis on anything he pushes.

Hates corporate media but is an RT-loving drone himself.

acbytesla · 8th August 2018, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

As an ex-teacher, I feel your pain. Old habits die hard. My pet peeve is people mispronouncing "mischievous" as "mis-chee-vee-us". I have to clench my teeth not to correct them...and I don't always succeed.

Funny, you pick that word. I deliberately pronounce that word both ways for effect.

Stacyhs · 8th August 2018, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by acbytesla

Funny, you pick that word. I deliberately pronounce that word both ways for effect.

What effect are you going for?

alfaniner · 8th August 2018, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

What effect are you going for?

Whatever it is, there must be a word for it.

acbytesla · 8th August 2018, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

What effect are you going for?

Lyrical. Sometimes, one way sounds better in the conversation to me. I like to say I'm being mis-chee-vius to be more playful and mis-chuv-is when it is more serious.

Foolmewunz · 8th August 2018, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Fox News analyst says that "there is the potential crime for conspiracy" re the Trump Tower meeting

Damn! There goes Napolitano's contract. Can we assume Sean's on the phone to Pirro to get her gussied up to do guest commentator rounds explaining to the faithful that "collusion is not a crime".

BTW, you guys got tired of "But Benghazi" and "But Uranium One" and "But her emails"? We're going to hear "Collusion is not a crime" from now until November of 2020.

Bob001 · 8th August 2018, 11:46 PM

More on where we are:

Quote:

Voting is supposed to be the great leveler among us. Every American has the right to vote, but you get only one of them. You can’t go out and buy another vote for yourself, like you can buy another shirt or another car. Nope, all you’ve got is one vote. Your vote belongs to you, and under our system of laws, nobody is supposed to be able to take it away from you.

Except that’s not the way it works. Two lawsuits were brought by conservative legal activists close to the Republican Party that have severely cut into the rights of citizens to vote, and what that vote is worth, once it is counted. When they reached the Supreme Court, they were decided on partisan grounds, with all the justices appointed by Republican presidents voting one way, and justices appointed by Democratic presidents voting the other.
.....

https://www.salon.com/2018/08/08/tru...out-our-votes/

Squeegee Beckenheim · 15th August 2018, 12:18 AM

Trump set to ignore congressional directive preventing the recognition of Crimea as part of Russia

TheSupermeerkat · 15th August 2018, 02:53 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

Trump set to ignore congressional directive preventing the recognition of Crimea as part of Russia

Any trumpers want to defend this? The Big Dog, perhaps?

Venom · 15th August 2018, 09:36 PM

There is a quote by a Chechen restaurant owner who was interviewed by Russian journalists in late 1994, around the time Russian troops were gathering around the border, poised to enter Chechnya.

Something like "I am against [President] Dudaev and I am against the opposition, but if the Russians invade I'll fight them".

I wish people who look at this Trump-Russia thing were as ready to pick their battles.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 16th August 2018, 05:40 AM

The Treasury Department has been hampering the Senate investigation

Hlafordlaes · 16th August 2018, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

The Treasury Department has been hampering the Senate investigation

It's an open race between the Western-oligarch and Russia-backed coup d'etat and the November election. White supremacist Confederacy owns all three branches of government, amd has all four branches of the Armed Forces and most state police under its sway, while local police forces suffer from the sample bias toward the citizenry the job brings with it. Only federal-level agencies that do not have the luxury of going wobbly for Trump's alternate reality remain standing.

Big Money wants a fascist state and can almost taste it; hard to think GOP backers won't go for broke in the next few weeks and months in any and every way possibly imaginable: 2016, only "better."

Bob001 · 19th August 2018, 02:29 PM

In new book, author traces extensive Trump money-laundering for Russian mobsters.

Quote:

Based on his own reporting and the investigative work of a former federal prosecutor, Unger posits that through Bayrock, Trump was “indirectly providing Putin with a regular flow of intelligence on what the oligarchs were doing with their money in the U.S.”

As the theory goes, Putin wanted to keep tabs on the billionaires — some of them former mobsters — who had made their post-Cold War fortunes on the backs of industries once owned by the state. The oligarchs, as well as other new-moneyed elites, were stashing their money in foreign real estate, including Trump properties, presumably beyond Putin’s reach.

Trump, knowingly or otherwise, may have struck a side deal with the Kremlin, Unger argues: He would secretly rat out his customers to Putin, who would allow them to keep buying Trump properties. Trump got rich. Putin got eyes on where the oligarchs had hidden their wealth. Everybody won.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlo...=.f1be4408654e

More:
https://newrepublic.com/article/1435...rime-syndicate
https://www.salon.com/2017/07/14/don...than-30-years/

Roger Ramjets · 19th August 2018, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Trump got rich. Putin got eyes on where the oligarchs had hidden their wealth. Everybody won.

What's wrong with that? Everyone talks about Freedom and Democracy yada yada, but what's more 'democratic' than making money? Why should Trump be punished for following the American Dream? The Russians aren't our enemies, they just to help (some of) us become rich!

thaiboxerken · 19th August 2018, 06:35 PM

The truth isn't the truth says Rudy Guilliani.

What he said this morning is what the Trump regime has been trying to convince the public since Trump started campaigning. Do not trust the media, the evidence, your eyes or experience....if you want the truth, Trump will tell you what the truth is.

Squeegee Beckenheim · 20th August 2018, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

The truth isn't the truth says Rudy Guilliani.

What he said this morning is what the Trump regime has been trying to convince the public since Trump started campaigning. Do not trust the media, the evidence, your eyes or experience....if you want the truth, Trump will tell you what the truth is.

Yeah, Trump's been saying that at campaign rallies recently.

Bob001 · 20th August 2018, 09:36 PM

Those Russkies don't quit:

Quote:

SAN FRANCISCO — A group affiliated with the Russian government created phony versions of six websites — including some related to public policy and to the U.S. Senate — with the apparent goal of hacking into the computers of people who were tricked into visiting, according to Microsoft, which said Monday night that it discovered and disabled the fake sites.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...?noredirect=on

Quote:

BOSTON — The Russian military intelligence unit that sought to influence the 2016 election appears to have a new target: conservative American think tanks that have broken with President Trump and are seeking continued sanctions against Moscow, exposing oligarchs or pressing for human rights.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post12401727

7th August 2018, 09:04 AM	#402
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	What amazes me most is how this issue has become focused on the legality of the meeting (no doubt in response to efforts by the Trump/Republican spin machine). I am in the camp that a significant number of actual laws were broken. But even more we now have a confirmed and self-admitted case of the POTUS's son, son-in-law, and campaign manager meeting with a representative of a hostile state specifically in order to sway the US Presidential election in favor of Trump. Trump Sr. most likely knew about it in advance, but whether he did or not, he undeniably (by his own statements) lied repeatedly about it later to to cover up the real purpose of the meetings. As did Trump Jr., who repeatedly lie about it for the same purpose, again as documented through his own public statements (including lies in front of a Congressional hearing while under oath). Indeed the Russians did subsequently provide substantial assistance to Trump's campaign by the very means that were the topic of that meeting, making public damaging emails obtained by illegal hacking as well as heavily infiltrating social media and other Internet sites to generate false spin against Clinton and to favor Trump. Trump Sr. himself called on the Russians to intensify their release of the damaging hacked emails and the Russians immediately did so. None of this is speculation - it is all in the public record. Putin himself has admitted to favoring Trump in the campaign and it is clear that significant portions of the Russian government mobilized appropriately. I am simply flabbergasted! It is now well documented that Trump's campaign had multiple contacts with agents of an enemy government with the specific purpose of using their help to alter the outcome of a US election. And Russia did just that. Further Trump has subsequently and inexplicably heavily favored Russia in terms of foreign policy at the expense of our traditional allies and the advice of many of his own colleagues. The quid-pro-qup is difficult to deny. Yet somehow Trump retains a substantial core of public support and most of the Republican leadership either think this outrageous moral and treasonous behavior is either okay, or they are too afraid to speak out against it. Giving up their patriotism for a 15% tax cut and a Supreme Court pick. Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil? We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now?
	Last edited by Giordano; 7th August 2018 at 09:05 AM.

7th August 2018, 09:48 AM	#403
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by The Shrike Conspiring with a foreign power (and an adversary) to disrupt the integrity of a US election sure does sound like a crime to me. Treason is a crime. In fact specifically listed in the US Constitution. Typical dictionary definition: the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the legal government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance. It is difficult not to see Trump's and his campaign's actions as matching this definition. let alone the more generic definition Betrayal of a trust, treachery. The more restrictive 18 US Code definition: Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. Do Trump's actions fit the "giving them aid and comfort definition?" Well after their strong and material support of his election he heavily and inexplicably favors Russia and their murderous dictator Putin in his foreign policy and in his public announcements, in sharp contrast to virtually all other US and allied leaders. And his election itself clearly was what the Russians most desired. It is certainly treason and treachery by my definition, whether or not it perfectly matches 18 US Code.
	Last edited by Giordano; 7th August 2018 at 10:02 AM.

7th August 2018, 10:57 AM	#404
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by Giordano Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil? We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now? Short answer yes. But for different reasons between the public and the leadership. The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn. The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level. There are no heroes left in DC.
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

7th August 2018, 11:13 AM	#405
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,939	Originally Posted by Giordano ... Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil? ... We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now? Originally Posted by Giordano ... It is certainly treason and treachery by my definition, whether or not it perfectly matches 18 US Code. Now is the time for all good men. Yet I struggle to think of any line to follow that which is not a statement of wishful thinking, sorry to admit. Or, at least, that is the sensation, when words have lost their meaning, reason sheds little light, and good will seems so elusive, even illusory. ... For now, I've run out of excuses for not coming to any sort of aid, and avoid mirrors and that pest, Jiminy Cricket. Getting old, by golly, praying for some magical oomph.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

7th August 2018, 01:53 PM	#408
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,051	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Looks like AlaskaBushPilot has overdosed on Trump flavored Kool-Aid. I stopped reading about half way through his non-sensical rant and won't bother responding to it because it's a complete and utter waste of time. He's just gone too far down the rabbit hole. Or he just watches a lot of the Jimmy Dore show. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore tl;dr Jim's still pissed at Hillary for not winning (and providing him with 8 yrs. of material) that he cannot countenance anyone critiquing Trump on his show.
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,051

7th August 2018, 08:35 AM	#401
The Shrike Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 5,147	Conspiring with a foreign power (and an adversary) to disrupt the integrity of a US election sure does sound like a crime to me.

7th August 2018, 11:31 AM	#406
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 28,698	Quote: Originally Posted by Giordano Bottom line: how on earth is this possible? Have large portions of the American public and Republican leadership collectively lost their sense of smell such that they can no longer detect this stinking morass of vice and evil? We once were a nation that had some ideals. But now? Originally Posted by LSSBB Short answer yes. But for different reasons between the public and the leadership. The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn. The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level. There are no heroes left in DC. Agreed. Confirmation bias and the inability to admit error is extremely strong in many, if not most, people. Even unimportant errors can be difficult for some to admit. A couple weeks ago, my husband and I were out with his brother and wife for dinner. My brother-in-law said something that we all reacted to with the same confusion. He'd accidentally used an incorrect word when he meant to use another as in saying "washing machine" instead of "dishwasher". When we all confirmed he'd said "washing machine", he insisted he'd said "dishwasher". All three of us heard "washing machine". He continued to deny his mistake and told his wife she needed her hearing tested. When my husband and I backed up his wife, he insisted we were mistaken, too. He never admitted to making a simple mistake the we all do from time to time.

7th August 2018, 12:27 PM	#407
Giordano Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 17,646	Originally Posted by LSSBB Short answer yes. But for different reasons between the public and the leadership. The public supporters of Trump are so glued to their initial support by confirmation bias and other mental processes, that make one stubborn. The leadership is afraid to jump off into the cold dark waters. They're riding this hulk down until the stern meets the water level. There are no heroes left in DC. Quote from the novel I Claudius referring to the sad state of the Roman Senate at the advent of Imperial rule: "the only lions left in Rome are in the arena. ..."

7th August 2018, 02:09 PM	#409
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 28,698	Originally Posted by Elagabalus Or he just watches a lot of the Jimmy Dore show. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jimmy_Dore tl;dr Jim's still pissed at Hillary for not winning (and providing him with 8 yrs. of material) that he cannot countenance anyone critiquing Trump on his show. Never heard of him...and never wish to again.

7th August 2018, 02:32 PM	#410
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,051	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Never heard of him...and never wish to again. I'll admit that the JD show was kind of a shot in the dark but, as if by magic, it appears ... http://www.internationalskeptics.com...78&postcount=9 Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot ...Check out Jimmy Dore's show back in March on CIA running as democrats and a number of articles many have done since then. Dore is a hard core liberal, he isn't a Trumpist ...
Elagabalus Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 7,051

7th August 2018, 09:20 PM	#411
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,080	As someone who regularly checks out the TYT network, Jimmy Dore is easily the most unlikable member. Almost every time he steps outside his own show and into the main TYT YouTube channel, the dislikes exceed the likes, and for good reason.

7th August 2018, 10:47 PM	#412
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Venom As someone who regularly checks out the TYT network, Jimmy Dore is easily the most unlikable member. Almost every time he steps outside his own show and into the main TYT YouTube channel, the dislikes exceed the likes, and for good reason. Knowingly or otherwise, Dore promotes a lot of Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories about Syria, so it's not surprising to see him doing the same for the Russian collusion thing. But I wrote him off as an idiot back when he started pushing the "theory" that Building 7 might have been brought down with magical silent explosives, so I guess he's what the Russians call a useful idiot.

8th August 2018, 05:30 AM	#413
Drewbot Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 7,593	You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution.
Drewbot Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 7,593	__________________ "I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic

8th August 2018, 06:18 AM	#414
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,369	Originally Posted by Drewbot You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution. True. Maybe reality is simply a computer program and we're all stuck in a simulation. Or maybe Trump is a criminal and his followers have managed to brainwash themselves through years of "alt-media" diets. Confirmation bias doesn't even go far enough to explain the devotion of Trumpists.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

8th August 2018, 06:46 AM	#415
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by Drewbot You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution. Personal story: I never liked John Mayer's music. Thought he was pretentious, didn't like the tone or style. I also never really got into the Grateful Dead. My wife is a Deadhead, travelled to watch their shows, got the fanzines. She really wanted to go to the Fare Thee Well concerts in Chicago, and couldn't get tickets. At the time we didn't have the resources to score tickets. So we watched it on Pay Per View. I really got to love the music, and became a fan myself. Then I heard 3 of the remaining 4 band members were going to tour with John Mayer. No way, I said. That would be horrible. My wife convinced me to go see them in Alpine Valley. I was blown away, John Mayer played so well together with them I immediately felt I was wrong all along. I follow a few Deadhead fb sites. Lots of Deadheads still can't accept John Mayer. I know I can be biased. That's why I keep an open mind and analyze my biases. I haven't liked Trump since I started following news on him back in the 80s. I watched his show with my wife, and could see how he exhibited everything I knew was wrong about poor business leadership. I also read about his scams like Trump U and his charity. I followed his tweets and so on. I was a Republican. Tax cuts strike dear to my heart. You would think I would be predisposed to accept the man if he even showed a Millard Filmore level of presidentiality. He is beneath all that. I keep an open mind, and so far the scales are so far out of his favor it isn't even funny. I don't think bias is why I don't like him as President. My anger is at how my fellow conservatives continue to twist and contort themselves and abandon their principles to defend what I feel I justifiably see is a charlatan. How about you?
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles Last edited by LSSBB; 8th August 2018 at 06:47 AM.

8th August 2018, 07:10 AM	#416
Slings and Arrows Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: USA Posts: 1,743	Originally Posted by LSSBB How about you? Your touching, poignant and heartfelt "personal story" has me all teary-eyed. I now realize the errors of my ways and will be voting for John Mayer in 2020. Thanks for sharing.

8th August 2018, 08:02 AM	#417
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,939	Originally Posted by Drewbot You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution. Interesting way of putting things. It is not that I do not like Trump; don't know the man. However, aware of history and according to exact same method of analysis I might apply to, say, radical Islam, I find his policies criminal in intent and murderous in practice. As for the Republican Party and its leaders, I apply the same criteria as those used at the Nuremberg trials, with the sole caveat that I oppose the death penalty. Originally Posted by Slings and Arrows Your touching, poignant and heartfelt "personal story" has me all teary-eyed. I now realize the errors of my ways and will be voting for John Mayer in 2020. Thanks for sharing. That easy to influence? Best give power of attorney to a mature adult asap.
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp

8th August 2018, 08:32 AM	#418
LSSBB Devilish Dictionarian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: An elusive house at Bachelors Grove Cemetery Posts: 20,058	Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes Interesting way of putting things. It is not that I do not like Trump; don't know the man. However, aware of history and according to exact same method of analysis I might apply to, say, radical Islam, I find his policies criminal in intent and murderous in practice. As for the Republican Party and its leaders, I apply the same criteria as those used at the Nuremberg trials, with the sole caveat that I oppose the death penalty. That easy to influence? Best give power of attorney to a mature adult asap. Heck, John Mayer would be a better president, probably. Courtney Love, though...
	__________________ "You must not let your need to be right be more important than your need to find out what's true." - Ray Dalio, Principles

8th August 2018, 08:38 AM	#419
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by LSSBB Heck, John Mayer would be a better president, probably. Courtney Love, though... If you really want to shake things up in Washington, Joan Jett. That would rock.

8th August 2018, 08:41 AM	#420
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,905	Originally Posted by The Don A civil war simply would not work. The overwhelming majority of military and law enforcement are firmly behind President Trump and he has tried to ensure that they have all the funding they require and/or all the ex-military hardware they require and by pardoning Sheriff Joe he's also given a clear signal that breaking the law in a way that aligns with his wishes is consequence free. Any popular uprising would be immediately and brutally put down. Yep this is how democracy dies.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

8th August 2018, 10:27 AM	#421
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 31,383	Originally Posted by Stacyhs Agreed. Confirmation bias and the inability to admit error is extremely strong in many, if not most, people. Even unimportant errors can be difficult for some to admit. A couple weeks ago, my husband and I were out with his brother and wife for dinner. My brother-in-law said something that we all reacted to with the same confusion. He'd accidentally used an incorrect word when he meant to use another as in saying "washing machine" instead of "dishwasher". When we all confirmed he'd said "washing machine", he insisted he'd said "dishwasher". All three of us heard "washing machine". He continued to deny his mistake and told his wife she needed her hearing tested. When my husband and I backed up his wife, he insisted we were mistaken, too. He never admitted to making a simple mistake the we all do from time to time. I think this is a serious problem that a lot of people have. Dale Carnegie talks about the phenomenon in his famous book 'How to win friends and influence people'. I kind of believe that a course should be taught in high school about how it is ok to be wrong. Learning how to listen to being corrected and accepting those corrections gracefully. Also teaching people not to correct others when they are wrong when it doesn't matter..(My personal flaw that I try to stop myself from doing.)
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

8th August 2018, 10:58 AM	#422
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 28,698	Originally Posted by Drewbot You would think that on a forum full of thinkers, it would be understood that confirmation bias occurs as a human trait. Just because you don't like Trump, doesn't mean you aren't also a victim of evolution. Of course we understand that everyone has confirmation bias. I've seen no one here say anything to indicate otherwise. It's the level to which that bias affects one's ability to be objective that varies. Some can readily admit to and accept being wrong or making a mistake. Others cannot.

8th August 2018, 11:01 AM	#423
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 28,698	Originally Posted by acbytesla I think this is a serious problem that a lot of people have. Dale Carnegie talks about the phenomenon in his famous book 'How to win friends and influence people'. I kind of believe that a course should be taught in high school about how it is ok to be wrong. Learning how to listen to being corrected and accepting those corrections gracefully. Also teaching people not to correct others when they are wrong when it doesn't matter..(My personal flaw that I try to stop myself from doing.) As an ex-teacher, I feel your pain. Old habits die hard. My pet peeve is people mispronouncing "mischievous" as "mis-chee-vee-us". I have to clench my teeth not to correct them...and I don't always succeed.

8th August 2018, 12:00 PM	#424
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,080	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Knowingly or otherwise, Dore promotes a lot of Russian propaganda and conspiracy theories about Syria, so it's not surprising to see him doing the same for the Russian collusion thing. But I wrote him off as an idiot back when he started pushing the "theory" that Building 7 might have been brought down with magical silent explosives, so I guess he's what the Russians call a useful idiot. Yup. I thought he was just a sort of comic relief guy on the show, but I found out he made that ridiculous claim about 9/11 and "whatever it is, the government isn't telling the truth" or something along those lines I just put him on ignore after that. It's clear he does no real analysis on anything he pushes. Hates corporate media but is an RT-loving drone himself.
	Last edited by Venom; 8th August 2018 at 12:01 PM.

8th August 2018, 05:00 PM	#425
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 31,383	Originally Posted by Stacyhs As an ex-teacher, I feel your pain. Old habits die hard. My pet peeve is people mispronouncing "mischievous" as "mis-chee-vee-us". I have to clench my teeth not to correct them...and I don't always succeed. Funny, you pick that word. I deliberately pronounce that word both ways for effect.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

8th August 2018, 05:43 PM	#426
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 28,698	Originally Posted by acbytesla Funny, you pick that word. I deliberately pronounce that word both ways for effect. What effect are you going for?

8th August 2018, 06:43 PM	#427
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 27,452	Originally Posted by Stacyhs What effect are you going for? Whatever it is, there must be a word for it.
	__________________ Science is self-correcting. Woo is self-contradicting.

8th August 2018, 07:19 PM	#428
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 31,383	Originally Posted by Stacyhs What effect are you going for? Lyrical. Sometimes, one way sounds better in the conversation to me. I like to say I'm being mis-chee-vius to be more playful and mis-chuv-is when it is more serious.
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

8th August 2018, 09:11 PM	#429
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Fox News analyst says that "there is the potential crime for conspiracy" re the Trump Tower meeting Damn! There goes Napolitano's contract. Can we assume Sean's on the phone to Pirro to get her gussied up to do guest commentator rounds explaining to the faithful that "collusion is not a crime". BTW, you guys got tired of "But Benghazi" and "But Uranium One" and "But her emails"? We're going to hear "Collusion is not a crime" from now until November of 2020.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. Last edited by Foolmewunz; 8th August 2018 at 09:58 PM.

8th August 2018, 11:46 PM	#430
Bob001 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: US of A Posts: 16,349	More on where we are: Quote: Voting is supposed to be the great leveler among us. Every American has the right to vote, but you get only one of them. You can’t go out and buy another vote for yourself, like you can buy another shirt or another car. Nope, all you’ve got is one vote. Your vote belongs to you, and under our system of laws, nobody is supposed to be able to take it away from you. Except that’s not the way it works. Two lawsuits were brought by conservative legal activists close to the Republican Party that have severely cut into the rights of citizens to vote, and what that vote is worth, once it is counted. When they reached the Supreme Court, they were decided on partisan grounds, with all the justices appointed by Republican presidents voting one way, and justices appointed by Democratic presidents voting the other. ..... https://www.salon.com/2018/08/08/tru...out-our-votes/

15th August 2018, 12:18 AM	#431
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	Trump set to ignore congressional directive preventing the recognition of Crimea as part of Russia
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

15th August 2018, 02:53 AM	#432
TheSupermeerkat Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,776	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim Trump set to ignore congressional directive preventing the recognition of Crimea as part of Russia Any trumpers want to defend this? The Big Dog, perhaps?

15th August 2018, 09:36 PM	#433
Venom Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: United States Posts: 6,080	There is a quote by a Chechen restaurant owner who was interviewed by Russian journalists in late 1994, around the time Russian troops were gathering around the border, poised to enter Chechnya. Something like "I am against [President] Dudaev and I am against the opposition, but if the Russians invade I'll fight them". I wish people who look at this Trump-Russia thing were as ready to pick their battles.

16th August 2018, 05:40 AM	#434
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 32,124	The Treasury Department has been hampering the Senate investigation
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

16th August 2018, 10:46 AM	#435
Hlafordlaes Disorder of Kilopi Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: State of Flux Posts: 16,939	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim The Treasury Department has been hampering the Senate investigation It's an open race between the Western-oligarch and Russia-backed coup d'etat and the November election. White supremacist Confederacy owns all three branches of government, amd has all four branches of the Armed Forces and most state police under its sway, while local police forces suffer from the sample bias toward the citizenry the job brings with it. Only federal-level agencies that do not have the luxury of going wobbly for Trump's alternate reality remain standing. Big Money wants a fascist state and can almost taste it; hard to think GOP backers won't go for broke in the next few weeks and months in any and every way possibly imaginable: 2016, only "better."
	__________________ His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp