All things Trump + Russia Part 4 - Page 32

Gulliver Foyle · 10th November 2022, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by varwoche

From another thread...

Because of what we know about the Trump campaign colluding with Russia, I reject this.

The most stupid thing about the Trump campaign was that he probably didn't need the Russians. With republican election officials ensuring Hillary Clinton effectively started at -10,000,000 votes and Comey going to bat with the spurious investigations over the emails, he had the election messed up enough.

Segnosaur · 10th November 2022, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle

The most stupid thing about the Trump campaign was that he probably didn't need the Russians. With republican election officials ensuring Hillary Clinton effectively started at -10,000,000 votes and Comey going to bat with the spurious investigations over the emails, he had the election messed up enough.

I have to disagree.

Things like the Comey email investigation announcement was a little damaging on its own, but the significance of the issue was amplified by russian disinformation campaigns. Without that, the announcement might have just been some minor detail that gets overlooked. But with the Russians pushing "clinton can't be trusted with security" it affected more voters than than it might have otherwise.

Then you also have their hacking into the democratic email server, which did a couple of things: Confused voters (what, there are 2 servers? Clinton must really be corrupt!), and gave Democratic opponents ammunition in the form of "look the primaries weren't a fair fight!"

By itself the Russion election interference probably wouldn't have made a difference, but I do think it helped push Trump over the top (especially given his narrow margin if victory in certain key states).

thaiboxerken · 10th November 2022, 01:17 PM

Also, I believe that the Russians hacked the RNC servers and got dirt on Republicans and with that information, Putin forced many of them to support Trump. Remember when a bunch of Republicans went to Russia after Trump was elected and no one knows why? There still isn't an explanation as to why a convoy of Republicans visited Moscow after Trump's victory.

Gulliver Foyle · 11th November 2022, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I have to disagree.

Things like the Comey email investigation announcement was a little damaging on its own, but the significance of the issue was amplified by russian disinformation campaigns. Without that, the announcement might have just been some minor detail that gets overlooked. But with the Russians pushing "clinton can't be trusted with security" it affected more voters than than it might have otherwise.

Then you also have their hacking into the democratic email server, which did a couple of things: Confused voters (what, there are 2 servers? Clinton must really be corrupt!), and gave Democratic opponents ammunition in the form of "look the primaries weren't a fair fight!"

By itself the Russion election interference probably wouldn't have made a difference, but I do think it helped push Trump over the top (especially given his narrow margin if victory in certain key states).

When he reopened the investgation in October, knowing full well there was no criminal activity to investigate, was the first time Trump held a lead in the polls. None of the bovine excrement wikileaks pushed nor the Russian attack ads did that for him.

What Comey did was push the polls close enough that the disenfranchisements could do their job.

Ladewig · 11th November 2022, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by varwoche

From another thread...

Because of what we know about the Trump campaign colluding with Russia, I reject this.

Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians?
There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign.

Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation)

ETA
Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail.

Segnosaur · 11th November 2022, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians?
There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign.

Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation)

ETA
Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail.

Well for one, supposedly Manafort provided internal Republican polling data to a Russian agent. And the Republican Senate concluded that the Trump campaign "probably" knew it was helping Russia when working with WikiLeaks

Now I believe you are right in that Mueller concluded that the Trump campaign was willing to work with the Russians but was not competent enough to. I am not sure why Manafort's activities did not count as "collusion". (Maybe he thought it required more links? Or maybe he made his conclusions before he had all relevant information)
See: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/trum...tion-data.html
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN25E1US

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varwoche · 11th November 2022, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians?
There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign.

Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation)

ETA
Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail.

Trump campaign chief Manafort's associate Kilimnik gave Russia 2016 election strategy, polling, U.S. says

Hmm why would a candidate for POTUS be channeling this information to an adversary?

Meanwhile, Russia controlled the highly effective drip-drip-drip through WikiLeaks.

Blatant collusion.

Beelzebuddy · 11th November 2022, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion?

It did not. It concluded that pretty much everyone they spoke to was lying through their teeth about everything and that they did not have the authority to investigate further without implicating Trump himself, which they weren't willing to do. But they were willing to write down the names of everyone they didn't suspect of collusion, followed by holding up a sheet of blank paper.

It was Barr's summary which took that report and squeezed it until something vaguely exoneration-shaped fell out.

Aridas · 11th November 2022, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation)

ETA
Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail.

Technically no? IIRC, the Mueller Report concluded that they couldn't prove direct collusion to a rather high standard of proof, but that 1) (numerous) attempts were made, 2) Trump campaign data went to the Russians via Manafort, for example, 3) and that there were significant efforts to impede the investigation and generally cover up that had real impact. There was also things like the Trump Tower Moscow deal being worked on that provided Putin with direct blackmail on Trump and little in the way of further details on whether anything else was being done/discussed in those communications and there were unusual Russian actions that closely matched and sought to bolster Trump campaign actions. One might somewhat reasonably conclude from the crap actually there, though, that telling foreign allies what you want done and giving them tools to help you isn't actually direct collusion if they simply don't answer back directly and just act "on their own" in concert with you, especially if you use mafia code to create weasel room.

Further, there's the issue of Mueller's investigation pretty well ignoring more direct issues under distinctly shaky premises. IIRC, McConnell v FEC and Congress both had a very direct ruling on a matter and Mueller dropped the major part of what should have been investigated/prosecuted under premises that directly ignored/opposed both those rulings. With that said, it's possible that the corruption enabling of Citizen's United could have ruled something relevant to that matter, though I've still seen no evidence that it actually did.

Beyond that, of course, there's the issue of the scope of the investigation being changed partway through by Rosenstein and thus Mueller not following up on a bunch of things that he apparently assumed were being investigated by others... but apparently weren't investigated because of how Rosenstein handled such. And there's the issue of Barr immediately killing a bunch of related investigations the moment he could and actively working as a partisan coverup man again.

So... in short, to recap, no, the Mueller Investigation did not determine no collusion. Just that it couldn't prove it under the circumstances (to the point where all the technicalities were above unreasonable doubt).

theprestige · 11th November 2022, 05:40 PM

After Russia's showing in Ukraine, I'm beginning to doubt quality of their troll farms and their alleged "kompromat".

Aridas · 11th November 2022, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I am not sure why Manafort's activities did not count as "collusion".

If I remember/understand it correctly, collusion technically requires actually discussing. Manafort's actions were as good as unilateral as far as the investigation could determine after being very significantly impeded.

To repeat a line from what I just said, one might somewhat reasonably conclude from the crap actually there, though, that telling foreign allies what you want done and giving them tools to help you isn't actually direct collusion if they simply don't answer back directly and just act "on their own" in concert with you, especially if you use mafia code to create weasel room.

varwoche · 11th November 2022, 05:49 PM

"Collusion" isn't a legal concept. Mueller didn't weigh in on it.

Aridas · 11th November 2022, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

After Russia's showing in Ukraine, I'm beginning to doubt quality of their troll farms and their alleged "kompromat".

Personally, I'd say that the issue with the Trump Tower Moscow kompromat has far less to do with the quality than it's nature and how easily it was given.

Originally Posted by varwoche

"Collusion" isn't a legal concept. Mueller didn't weigh in on it.

Fair enough. Criminal conspiracy is probably the more correct term for what Mueller actually worked to investigate. Conspiracy requires 2 or more people actually conspiring. They had evidence of Manafort's actions, just not proof that it wasn't unilateral and no real ability to investigate the other side.

The Great Zaganza · 11th November 2022, 10:46 PM

Mueller made it very clear that there was a case for charging Trump for Obstruction, but that he, Mueller, couldn't make that call for that, as it would be prejudicial to a future Jury.
He believed that Trump would be charged, using his evidence, and wanted to make a conviction stick.

dudalb · 11th November 2022, 10:51 PM

Trump and the Russians remind me of President Clark and The Shadows in 'Babylon 5".

Fast Eddie B · 12th November 2022, 06:44 AM

I’ve probably posted this graphic before, but so many contacts by Trump operatives and Russians pretty clearly shows some level of coordination, or at least attempted coordination between the parties.

Sure rises to the level of “collusion” to me. Whether it rose to the level of a prosecutable crime is another matter.

Ladewig · 12th November 2022, 09:33 AM

Thanks

Segnosaur · 12th November 2022, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

After Russia's showing in Ukraine, I'm beginning to doubt quality of their troll farms and their alleged "kompromat".

Ummm... why?

The two events are wildly different and have nothing to do with each other.

Yes, Russia's invasion into Ukraine has highlighted problems in their military. But the resources/skills needed to "hack" an election are very different (and probably required fewer resources) than the logistics of an invasion.

Election interference probably just required a small team of hackers (a few to set up a bot net to flood social media sites, one or 2 to hack the Democrat's email server) and a couple of intelligence agents to craft what message to push. I don't even think they would even need exceptionally skilled hackers (as there are probably tools to do many of those tasks)

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Flo · 13th November 2022, 02:51 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Ummm... why?

The two events are wildly different and have nothing to do with each other.

Yes, Russia's invasion into Ukraine has highlighted problems in their military. But the resources/skills needed to "hack" an election are very different (and probably required fewer resources) than the logistics of an invasion.

Election interference probably just required a small team of hackers …

… and a legion of "idiots utiles" to relay and amplify the messages.

Same as can be seen everywhere, from France to Burkina Faso for example.

Gulliver Foyle · 13th November 2022, 05:30 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians?
There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign.

Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation)

ETA
Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail.

No Mueller, the card carrying republican member under orders made that conclusion independent of edit: evidence. A truly independent counsel would have had to come to a different conclusion.

Stacyhs · 13th November 2022, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

Ummm... why?

The two events are wildly different and have nothing to do with each other.

Yes, Russia's invasion into Ukraine has highlighted problems in their military. But the resources/skills needed to "hack" an election are very different (and probably required fewer resources) than the logistics of an invasion.

~~Election~~ Electron interference probably just required a small team of hackers (a few to set up a bot net to flood social media sites, one or 2 to hack the Democrat's email server) and a couple of intelligence agents to craft what message to push. I don't even think they would even need exceptionally skilled hackers (as there are probably tools to do many of those tasks)

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FTFY.

ZiprHead · 14th November 2022, 09:48 AM

^^^ I see what you did there.

Segnosaur · 18th November 2022, 06:44 PM

I posted this in the general Trump thread Here, but it perhaps should be repeated....

Jesse Benton (a former aid to several GOP politicians) has just been convicted over his part in allowing russian donations to get Trump elected in 2016. (This is the second conviction he has had for campaign finance violations... he was pardoned by Trump the first time.)

It doesn't look like Trump or his minions directed the payments, but still... another Trump/Russia link.

Crazy Chainsaw · 20th November 2022, 06:22 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

I posted this in the general Trump thread Here, but it perhaps should be repeated....

Jesse Benton (a former aid to several GOP politicians) has just been convicted over his part in allowing russian donations to get Trump elected in 2016. (This is the second conviction he has had for campaign finance violations... he was pardoned by Trump the first time.)

It doesn't look like Trump or his minions directed the payments, but still... another Trump/Russia link.

Trump is up too his Orange Hair in Trump Russia Links as is the GQP,
If you understood the exstint of the Republican cover up you would see Putin was buying his way into the GQP for decades now.
Why do you think Venezuela and Iran were an early backer of the 9/11Truth movement and funneled money though that movement too Alex Jones, and from him too Ron Paul?
These nut job conspiracy theorists bought their way into power in the GQP over decades it didn't just happen overnight!

Aridas · 26th January 2023, 10:33 PM

Well... here's a twist that's probably worth poking at here.

Quote:

The reporting on this so far seems to miss the larger implications. One of them is that Trump’s historical position looks far cloudier. In 2016, Trump's campaign manager (Manafort) was a former employee of a Russian oligarch (Deripaska), and owed money to that same Russian oligarch. And the FBI special agent (McGonigal) who was charged with investigating the Trump campaign's Russian connections then went to work (according to the indictment) for that very same Russian oligarch (Deripaska). This is obviously very bad for Trump personally. But it is also very bad for FBI New York, for the FBI generally, and for the United States of America.

A bunch more is said in the link, but that's a really short version.

Gulliver Foyle · 26th January 2023, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Aridas

Well... here's a twist that's probably worth poking at here.

A bunch more is said in the link, but that's a really short version.

Absolutely nothing surprising in that article. It's been obvious for decades that the FBI are a fully paid up branch of the republican party and obvious for years that the republican party are a willing agent of an enemy foreign nation, Russia.

The only thing I would argue is the idea that Comey was pushed into announcing the reopening of the fake emails investigation. He only became unwilling to support that sham after the fact, when Trump welched on his payola.

10th November 2022, 09:30 AM	#1242
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 19,541	Originally Posted by Gulliver Foyle The most stupid thing about the Trump campaign was that he probably didn't need the Russians. With republican election officials ensuring Hillary Clinton effectively started at -10,000,000 votes and Comey going to bat with the spurious investigations over the emails, he had the election messed up enough. I have to disagree. Things like the Comey email investigation announcement was a little damaging on its own, but the significance of the issue was amplified by russian disinformation campaigns. Without that, the announcement might have just been some minor detail that gets overlooked. But with the Russians pushing "clinton can't be trusted with security" it affected more voters than than it might have otherwise. Then you also have their hacking into the democratic email server, which did a couple of things: Confused voters (what, there are 2 servers? Clinton must really be corrupt!), and gave Democratic opponents ammunition in the form of "look the primaries weren't a fair fight!" By itself the Russion election interference probably wouldn't have made a difference, but I do think it helped push Trump over the top (especially given his narrow margin if victory in certain key states).
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

10th November 2022, 01:17 PM	#1243
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 32,473	Also, I believe that the Russians hacked the RNC servers and got dirt on Republicans and with that information, Putin forced many of them to support Trump. Remember when a bunch of Republicans went to Russia after Trump was elected and no one knows why? There still isn't an explanation as to why a convoy of Republicans visited Moscow after Trump's victory.
	__________________ 1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

11th November 2022, 04:27 PM	#1245
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,711	Originally Posted by varwoche From another thread... Because of what we know about the Trump campaign colluding with Russia, I reject this. Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians? There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign. Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation) ETA Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail.
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. Last edited by Ladewig; 11th November 2022 at 04:28 PM.

11th November 2022, 04:53 PM	#1246
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 19,541	Originally Posted by Ladewig Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians? There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign. Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation) ETA Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail. Well for one, supposedly Manafort provided internal Republican polling data to a Russian agent. And the Republican Senate concluded that the Trump campaign "probably" knew it was helping Russia when working with WikiLeaks Now I believe you are right in that Mueller concluded that the Trump campaign was willing to work with the Russians but was not competent enough to. I am not sure why Manafort's activities did not count as "collusion". (Maybe he thought it required more links? Or maybe he made his conclusions before he had all relevant information) See: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/15/trum...tion-data.html https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKCN25E1US Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

11th November 2022, 04:56 PM	#1247
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 16,420	Originally Posted by Ladewig Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians? There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign. Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation) ETA Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail. Trump campaign chief Manafort's associate Kilimnik gave Russia 2016 election strategy, polling, U.S. says Hmm why would a candidate for POTUS be channeling this information to an adversary? Meanwhile, Russia controlled the highly effective drip-drip-drip through WikiLeaks. Blatant collusion.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

10th November 2022, 12:49 AM	#1241
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by varwoche From another thread... Because of what we know about the Trump campaign colluding with Russia, I reject this. The most stupid thing about the Trump campaign was that he probably didn't need the Russians. With republican election officials ensuring Hillary Clinton effectively started at -10,000,000 votes and Comey going to bat with the spurious investigations over the emails, he had the election messed up enough.

11th November 2022, 03:12 AM	#1244
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by Segnosaur I have to disagree. Things like the Comey email investigation announcement was a little damaging on its own, but the significance of the issue was amplified by russian disinformation campaigns. Without that, the announcement might have just been some minor detail that gets overlooked. But with the Russians pushing "clinton can't be trusted with security" it affected more voters than than it might have otherwise. Then you also have their hacking into the democratic email server, which did a couple of things: Confused voters (what, there are 2 servers? Clinton must really be corrupt!), and gave Democratic opponents ammunition in the form of "look the primaries weren't a fair fight!" By itself the Russion election interference probably wouldn't have made a difference, but I do think it helped push Trump over the top (especially given his narrow margin if victory in certain key states). When he reopened the investgation in October, knowing full well there was no criminal activity to investigate, was the first time Trump held a lead in the polls. None of the bovine excrement wikileaks pushed nor the Russian attack ads did that for him. What Comey did was push the polls close enough that the disenfranchisements could do their job.

11th November 2022, 05:17 PM	#1248
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 9,289	Originally Posted by Ladewig Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? It did not. It concluded that pretty much everyone they spoke to was lying through their teeth about everything and that they did not have the authority to investigate further without implicating Trump himself, which they weren't willing to do. But they were willing to write down the names of everyone they didn't suspect of collusion, followed by holding up a sheet of blank paper. It was Barr's summary which took that report and squeezed it until something vaguely exoneration-shaped fell out.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 9,289

11th November 2022, 05:24 PM	#1249
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,643	Originally Posted by Ladewig Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation) ETA Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail. Technically no? IIRC, the Mueller Report concluded that they couldn't prove direct collusion to a rather high standard of proof, but that 1) (numerous) attempts were made, 2) Trump campaign data went to the Russians via Manafort, for example, 3) and that there were significant efforts to impede the investigation and generally cover up that had real impact. There was also things like the Trump Tower Moscow deal being worked on that provided Putin with direct blackmail on Trump and little in the way of further details on whether anything else was being done/discussed in those communications and there were unusual Russian actions that closely matched and sought to bolster Trump campaign actions. One might somewhat reasonably conclude from the crap actually there, though, that telling foreign allies what you want done and giving them tools to help you isn't actually direct collusion if they simply don't answer back directly and just act "on their own" in concert with you, especially if you use mafia code to create weasel room. Further, there's the issue of Mueller's investigation pretty well ignoring more direct issues under distinctly shaky premises. IIRC, McConnell v FEC and Congress both had a very direct ruling on a matter and Mueller dropped the major part of what should have been investigated/prosecuted under premises that directly ignored/opposed both those rulings. With that said, it's possible that the corruption enabling of Citizen's United could have ruled something relevant to that matter, though I've still seen no evidence that it actually did. Beyond that, of course, there's the issue of the scope of the investigation being changed partway through by Rosenstein and thus Mueller not following up on a bunch of things that he apparently assumed were being investigated by others... but apparently weren't investigated because of how Rosenstein handled such. And there's the issue of Barr immediately killing a bunch of related investigations the moment he could and actively working as a partisan coverup man again. So... in short, to recap, no, the Mueller Investigation did not determine no collusion. Just that it couldn't prove it under the circumstances (to the point where all the technicalities were above unreasonable doubt).
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 11th November 2022 at 05:47 PM.

11th November 2022, 05:40 PM	#1250
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The Antimemetics Division Posts: 63,146	After Russia's showing in Ukraine, I'm beginning to doubt quality of their troll farms and their alleged "kompromat".
	__________________ There is no Antimemetics Division.

11th November 2022, 05:43 PM	#1251
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,643	Originally Posted by Segnosaur I am not sure why Manafort's activities did not count as "collusion". If I remember/understand it correctly, collusion technically requires actually discussing. Manafort's actions were as good as unilateral as far as the investigation could determine after being very significantly impeded. To repeat a line from what I just said, one might somewhat reasonably conclude from the crap actually there, though, that telling foreign allies what you want done and giving them tools to help you isn't actually direct collusion if they simply don't answer back directly and just act "on their own" in concert with you, especially if you use mafia code to create weasel room.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 11th November 2022 at 05:45 PM.

11th November 2022, 05:49 PM	#1252
varwoche Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Puget Sound Posts: 16,420	"Collusion" isn't a legal concept. Mueller didn't weigh in on it.
	__________________ To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.

11th November 2022, 05:57 PM	#1253
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,643	Originally Posted by theprestige After Russia's showing in Ukraine, I'm beginning to doubt quality of their troll farms and their alleged "kompromat". Personally, I'd say that the issue with the Trump Tower Moscow kompromat has far less to do with the quality than it's nature and how easily it was given. Originally Posted by varwoche "Collusion" isn't a legal concept. Mueller didn't weigh in on it. Fair enough. Criminal conspiracy is probably the more correct term for what Mueller actually worked to investigate. Conspiracy requires 2 or more people actually conspiring. They had evidence of Manafort's actions, just not proof that it wasn't unilateral and no real ability to investigate the other side.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

11th November 2022, 10:46 PM	#1254
The Great Zaganza Maledictorian Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 19,348	Mueller made it very clear that there was a case for charging Trump for Obstruction, but that he, Mueller, couldn't make that call for that, as it would be prejudicial to a future Jury. He believed that Trump would be charged, using his evidence, and wanted to make a conviction stick.
	__________________ "The only true paradise is paradise lost" Marcel Proust

11th November 2022, 10:51 PM	#1255
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 57,281	Trump and the Russians remind me of President Clark and The Shadows in 'Babylon 5".
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

12th November 2022, 06:44 AM	#1256
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 7,434	I’ve probably posted this graphic before, but so many contacts by Trump operatives and Russians pretty clearly shows some level of coordination, or at least attempted coordination between the parties. Sure rises to the level of “collusion” to me. Whether it rose to the level of a prosecutable crime is another matter.

12th November 2022, 09:33 AM	#1257
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,711	Thanks
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

12th November 2022, 09:52 PM	#1258
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 19,541	Originally Posted by theprestige After Russia's showing in Ukraine, I'm beginning to doubt quality of their troll farms and their alleged "kompromat". Ummm... why? The two events are wildly different and have nothing to do with each other. Yes, Russia's invasion into Ukraine has highlighted problems in their military. But the resources/skills needed to "hack" an election are very different (and probably required fewer resources) than the logistics of an invasion. Election interference probably just required a small team of hackers (a few to set up a bot net to flood social media sites, one or 2 to hack the Democrat's email server) and a couple of intelligence agents to craft what message to push. I don't even think they would even need exceptionally skilled hackers (as there are probably tools to do many of those tasks) Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

13th November 2022, 02:51 AM	#1259
Flo Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Loire, France Posts: 3,150	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Ummm... why? The two events are wildly different and have nothing to do with each other. Yes, Russia's invasion into Ukraine has highlighted problems in their military. But the resources/skills needed to "hack" an election are very different (and probably required fewer resources) than the logistics of an invasion. Election interference probably just required a small team of hackers … … and a legion of "idiots utiles" to relay and amplify the messages. Same as can be seen everywhere, from France to Burkina Faso for example.

13th November 2022, 05:30 AM	#1260
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by Ladewig Was there actual cooperation between Trump campaign and the Russians? There is overwhelming objective evidence that the Russians interfered, but my understanding is that they interfered without actually colluding with the campaign. Didn’t the Mueller Report conclude there was no collusion? (And also conclude that Trump committed more than one count of obstruction of justice during the investigation) ETA Also, I assume that the Trumpcampaign was not competent enough to conclude without leaving a trail. No Mueller, the card carrying republican member under orders made that conclusion independent of edit: evidence. A truly independent counsel would have had to come to a different conclusion.
	Last edited by Gulliver Foyle; 13th November 2022 at 05:45 AM. Reason: replace orders with evidence, brainfart in original.

13th November 2022, 07:16 PM	#1261
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 28,698	Originally Posted by Segnosaur Ummm... why? The two events are wildly different and have nothing to do with each other. Yes, Russia's invasion into Ukraine has highlighted problems in their military. But the resources/skills needed to "hack" an election are very different (and probably required fewer resources) than the logistics of an invasion. ~~Election~~ Electron interference probably just required a small team of hackers (a few to set up a bot net to flood social media sites, one or 2 to hack the Democrat's email server) and a couple of intelligence agents to craft what message to push. I don't even think they would even need exceptionally skilled hackers (as there are probably tools to do many of those tasks) Sent from my moto e using Tapatalk FTFY.

14th November 2022, 09:48 AM	#1262
ZiprHead Muse Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sag-Nasty Posts: 879	^^^ I see what you did there.
	__________________ When conservatives realize they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will abandon democracy. IIDB is back, baby!

18th November 2022, 06:44 PM	#1263
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 19,541	I posted this in the general Trump thread Here, but it perhaps should be repeated.... Jesse Benton (a former aid to several GOP politicians) has just been convicted over his part in allowing russian donations to get Trump elected in 2016. (This is the second conviction he has had for campaign finance violations... he was pardoned by Trump the first time.) It doesn't look like Trump or his minions directed the payments, but still... another Trump/Russia link.
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

20th November 2022, 06:22 AM	#1264
Crazy Chainsaw Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 7,237	Originally Posted by Segnosaur I posted this in the general Trump thread Here, but it perhaps should be repeated.... Jesse Benton (a former aid to several GOP politicians) has just been convicted over his part in allowing russian donations to get Trump elected in 2016. (This is the second conviction he has had for campaign finance violations... he was pardoned by Trump the first time.) It doesn't look like Trump or his minions directed the payments, but still... another Trump/Russia link. Trump is up too his Orange Hair in Trump Russia Links as is the GQP, If you understood the exstint of the Republican cover up you would see Putin was buying his way into the GQP for decades now. Why do you think Venezuela and Iran were an early backer of the 9/11Truth movement and funneled money though that movement too Alex Jones, and from him too Ron Paul? These nut job conspiracy theorists bought their way into power in the GQP over decades it didn't just happen overnight!

26th January 2023, 10:33 PM	#1265
Aridas Crazy Little Green Dragon Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: East Coast, US Posts: 9,643	Well... here's a twist that's probably worth poking at here. Quote: The reporting on this so far seems to miss the larger implications. One of them is that Trump’s historical position looks far cloudier. In 2016, Trump's campaign manager (Manafort) was a former employee of a Russian oligarch (Deripaska), and owed money to that same Russian oligarch. And the FBI special agent (McGonigal) who was charged with investigating the Trump campaign's Russian connections then went to work (according to the indictment) for that very same Russian oligarch (Deripaska). This is obviously very bad for Trump personally. But it is also very bad for FBI New York, for the FBI generally, and for the United States of America. A bunch more is said in the link, but that's a really short version.
	__________________ So sayeth the crazy little dragon. Last edited by Aridas; 26th January 2023 at 10:34 PM.

26th January 2023, 10:53 PM	#1266
Gulliver Foyle Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Cork baaaiii Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by Aridas Well... here's a twist that's probably worth poking at here. A bunch more is said in the link, but that's a really short version. Absolutely nothing surprising in that article. It's been obvious for decades that the FBI are a fully paid up branch of the republican party and obvious for years that the republican party are a willing agent of an enemy foreign nation, Russia. The only thing I would argue is the idea that Comey was pushed into announcing the reopening of the fake emails investigation. He only became unwilling to support that sham after the fact, when Trump welched on his payola.