|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
8th December 2012, 12:12 AM | #1 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 932
|
What was the most successful war in history?
What did it succeed in the long run? Be specific.
|
8th December 2012, 12:17 AM | #2 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 54,890
|
I really think some definitions are necessary. Like "success" and possibly also "war".
But an interesting topic nonetheless. |
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
|
8th December 2012, 12:23 AM | #3 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 932
|
|
8th December 2012, 12:35 AM | #4 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 54,890
|
I guess the reason I asked is that I consider the Cold War to be the most successful. Not many deaths (depending on definitions); the world was literally facing destruction; it ended without tears.
|
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
|
8th December 2012, 12:43 AM | #5 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 932
|
|
8th December 2012, 12:45 AM | #6 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,710
|
World War II not only defeated the Axis but completely destroyed them. The victors completely destroyed the officer/military class of both countries. They partitioned one of the countries. Both had their constitutions rewritten by the victors and both still host the military forces of the victors.
|
8th December 2012, 12:49 AM | #7 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 54,890
|
See that's the thing. I consider the Cold War to be far different from Vietnam and Korea. I see it as brinkmanship and minor scuffles (like the Bay of Pigs and the related Cuban Missle Crisis) which resulted in the lack of a major war for decades.
I'm not dismissing the impact and tragedy of Vietnam and so on, but the Cold War was pretty successful IMO. |
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
|
8th December 2012, 12:53 AM | #8 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 932
|
|
8th December 2012, 01:11 AM | #9 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 932
|
|
8th December 2012, 01:15 AM | #10 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 54,890
|
|
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
|
8th December 2012, 01:23 AM | #11 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 932
|
|
8th December 2012, 01:28 AM | #12 |
In the Peanut Gallery
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 54,890
|
|
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. Sir Winston Churchill |
|
8th December 2012, 01:29 AM | #13 |
Nasty Brutish and Tall
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,691
|
What was the most sucsessful war in history?
Ya Mum!
What? |
8th December 2012, 01:34 AM | #14 |
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
|
|
8th December 2012, 01:59 AM | #15 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
|
|
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
|
8th December 2012, 02:10 AM | #16 |
Scholar
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 62
|
|
8th December 2012, 04:33 AM | #17 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,300
|
Star Wars. Made millions
|
8th December 2012, 06:50 AM | #18 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
The War on Christmas...
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
8th December 2012, 08:01 AM | #19 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 932
|
As devastating and expensive as war can be in the short term, it doesn't ever really seem to change things much. Something like that.
|
8th December 2012, 12:00 PM | #20 |
A broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's Privateers
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: About 7 Miles from the Saturn 5B
Posts: 6,878
|
And one thermonuclear weapon could have killed in milli-seconds as many US citizens as were killed in all combat activities 1946-2000.
As for the OP, I think an argument can be made that the American Revolutionary War was a success, in that both the United States and Great Britain went on to remain/become strong and democratic nations on their own. For least successful War, there are hundreds, but WW I would have to be a strong contender--millions of dead, empires wrecked (which may not have been all bad, but what replaced them was not all that much better, in many cases), and the seeds of an even bigger war firmly planted. IMHO as always. YMMV. |
__________________
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5 |
|
8th December 2012, 12:09 PM | #21 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,097
|
|
8th December 2012, 12:47 PM | #22 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,899
|
The 'most successful' war wouldn't necessarily have to be the 'best' war. For instance, WWII was obviously a horrible war, possibly the worst ever. But it was quite successful in that it seems to have ended in long lasting peace and rejection of the fascism and authoritarianism that caused the war. Compared to WWI which didn't solve any problems and only made things worse that is quite an achievement. Also, it is one of the few cases where it was quite clear who were the aggressors, and the agressors decisively lost, since it was very clear that the allies really did not want the war and the defeat of the axis powers was complete.
For 'long lasting consequences' I suppose Alexander's campaign may qualify, or Muhammed's. Both changed world history forever in very large parts of the world. If you check back in a few thousand years maybe we can see how WWII compares to that. For 'most cost-effective war' I guess you want to look at the consequences compared to the number of casualties. Maybe the American Revolution can be a contender in that category. |
8th December 2012, 01:42 PM | #23 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
|
Really?
You don't think that there would be a major difference between: a) allied victory in world war 2 b) axis victory in world war 2 Or a major impact on history, philosophy and science if the Persians had conquered ancient Greece? I wonder what would have happened if the Assyrians had conquered Jerusalem? From wiki: "McNeill argues that the apparent defeat of Sennacherib by Yahweh supported the idea of monotheism in an age when a conquered people typically adopted the god or gods of their conquerors, as their own had failed to protect them. The extraordinary defeat of Sennacherib which McNeill suggests, by disease which was as yet not understood, would have proven Yahweh superior to the gods of the most powerful nation then known to the Jews, Assyria. Therefore, McNeill concludes that if Sennacherib had taken the city, the culture of monotheism may have failed to achieve the widespread popularity it enjoys today through the various Abrahamic faiths." No Abrahamic faiths?? |
8th December 2012, 01:58 PM | #24 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,141
|
War is in itself the ultimate failure and brekdown of human relations
|
8th December 2012, 02:05 PM | #25 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,899
|
Maybe I'm ignorant, but was Jerusalem really monotheistic in that time? I've even seen suggestions that monotheism came to Judaism from the Zoroastrians during the Babylonian captivity.
Now it's of course still very possible that a capture of Jerusalem might have had far-reaching effects, but really I think it's plausible that even very minor events could have changed history forever. What if the person - whoever it was - who really pushed through monotheism had been distracted by a love story at the wrong moment? I think if we look for important events in history it has to be events that clearly affected history in a particular direction. |
8th December 2012, 02:09 PM | #26 |
Banned
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,628
|
The Revolutionary War was pretty darn successful, the USA gained it's independence and grew to become a world power.
The Civil War, tore the nation apart, but the freedoms resulting from that war are still being felt to this day.... You could say the Afghani's were pretty successful at running the Soviets out of town.... |
8th December 2012, 02:13 PM | #27 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 20,145
|
The war on drugs.
It successfully failed. |
8th December 2012, 02:24 PM | #28 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
|
Thank you for the additional vagueness.
"Devastating and Expensive": continue on this line of thought and compare it to the alternative. "It doesn't ever really seem to change things much": perhaps you should examine the societal, economic and political effects of World War I in a little more depth. Ditto for WWII - not because they're perfect examples, but because you won't be lacking for evidence. |
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
|
8th December 2012, 02:32 PM | #29 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
|
|
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it.... |
|
8th December 2012, 04:10 PM | #30 |
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 11,679
|
The Qin conquest of the other independent Chinese states.
|
8th December 2012, 04:25 PM | #31 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,165
|
A very good question. Not able to provide much insight as success there is hard to define.
What happens if you frame the question differently: What was the most successful peace in history? What did it succeed in the long run? How was it achieved and held to? ETA: I think waging peace succeeds better in the long run. I don't think peace just suddenly breaks out. There has to be short term tactics and long term strategy to wage peace, and those need to be both studied and applied. I think waging peace is the way to go, we should to study it more as a complementary science to war studies. That's why one of my favorite persons ever is Johan Galtung. |
8th December 2012, 05:40 PM | #32 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
|
|
8th December 2012, 07:00 PM | #33 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,570
|
World War II was successful at expunging authoritarian/dictatorial/fascist government from all of Western Europe for the entire period since and indefinitely onward--a return to dictatorship in any of those nations seems unlikely in the long run, though over millenia I suppose many things are possible.
As well, Western Europe has known military peace amongst themselves for the same period, which had not been true before. I'd say that's something. |
__________________
|
|
8th December 2012, 07:08 PM | #34 |
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 28,090
|
Some of the most successful wars would have been the ones the ancient Romans won. Like the conquest of England. That has had a huge impact on history to this very day.
|
__________________
This signature is for rent. |
|
8th December 2012, 08:45 PM | #35 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
The Man-Kzin Wars, which changed the nature of an entire species.
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
8th December 2012, 08:51 PM | #36 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Most successful war?
Name an aggressor. Did their aggression achieve its purpose? Was the gain greater than the loss? I'd say the war to liberate Kuwait is probably in the top 5 most successful wars of the 20th Century. Not sure where it would rank in all of history. Anyway, it looks like the OP's intent is not really to judge the success rate of warfare according to some criteria, but rather to introduce a global indictment of war by implication and without support or discussion. |
8th December 2012, 08:54 PM | #37 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: The Antimemetics Division
Posts: 69,914
|
Interesting. I'd say that it's meaningless to judge the success of a war, except in terms of the aggressor's objective. Since the aggressors in WWII ultimately lost, I'd say that by my criteria it should be judged a failure, not a success. Success for the defenders would have been to not have to fight a war at all.
|
8th December 2012, 09:00 PM | #38 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,632
|
The Pig War. San Juan Island, 1859. US v Canada. No human casualties.
My kinda war! |
8th December 2012, 09:09 PM | #39 |
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 28,352
|
I think the war that most cemented the character and nature of the human world would have to be the (theorized) hunting to extinction of neanderthals by cro-magnons. Our visceral hatred of the natural world, of anything that reminds us of our animal roots, our fear of strangers, and our insanely racist idea of manifest destiny all spring from our victory over neanderthals.
My second choice would be the WWI-WWII period. It destroyed forever the concept of empire, moved the production curve farther and faster than ever before, brought meaning to the concept of "human rights", and perhaps made "war" itself obsolete in the process. |
__________________
I have the honor to be Your Obdt. St L. Leader |
|
8th December 2012, 09:47 PM | #40 |
lorcutus.tolere
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
|
I would argue the Second Persian War. Greek victory in this conflict ensured Western Democracy could survive, allowing the Greeks to spread it to their Italian colonies where it would eventually result in the Roman Republic, which is the basis of Western Civilisation. Greek and Roman culture would further inspire a western cultural and social revolution in the late Renaissance, leading to the modern world.
|
__________________
O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi. A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge. |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|