IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 10th December 2012, 09:53 AM   #81
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So forces without strategic bombers might consider that terror shooting and murder of civilians is a blunt tool but the only tool available which allows the production capacity of the nemy to be hindered. So that's all right, then.
Or, look at it this way:

You are an allied commander in WW2. How many of your soldiers (who are just civilians drafted for the duration of the war) would you sacrifice in order to minimize losses amongst the enemy civilians working amongst enemy industry/infrastructure?

(And if you were to prioritise the lives of enemy citizens over your own, how long do you think you'd keep your job?)
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 12:47 PM   #82
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Or, look at it this way:

You are an allied commander in WW2. How many of your soldiers (who are just civilians drafted for the duration of the war) would you sacrifice in order to minimize losses amongst the enemy civilians working amongst enemy industry/infrastructure?

(And if you were to prioritise the lives of enemy citizens over your own, how long do you think you'd keep your job?)
Don't ask me. Ask the terrorists, your enemies, who do the same thing. But not having fleets of heavy bombers, they can't achieve the same body count figures. They do try, I admit.

Last edited by Craig B; 10th December 2012 at 12:49 PM.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 01:27 PM   #83
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So forces without strategic bombers might consider that terror shooting and murder of civilians is a blunt tool but the only tool available which allows the production capacity of the nemy to be hindered. So that's all right, then.

In a modern industrialized nation-state of the kind which existed in WWII, the distinction between civilian and military is not nearly as clear as many would like to think. There was a simple equation: no civilians, no economy; no economy, no military; no military, no war. A military cannot exist without provisions: food, water, fuel, ammunition, spare parts, equipment, armaments, personnel. Those provisions are provided by the civilians in the factories, powered by civilians operating the electricity generating plants and oil refineries, the raw resources and finished provisions transported by railways, trucks, and boats operated by civilians.

If the civilians of Germany during WWII had collectively stopped working, war production would have ceased and the German military would have collapsed not long afterwards. (For all the training in the world, troops cannot effectively fight for long with ammunition and other vital supplies.)

Even during ancient times armies still needed supplies, and these were often seized from local civilians rather than produced back home and shipped to the front. In short, the effort of civilians has always allowed a military to exist in the field. Without that civilian production, armies wither away relatively quickly.
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."

Last edited by Corsair 115; 10th December 2012 at 01:28 PM.
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 01:31 PM   #84
IMST
If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a Whole Lot of Dead Copycats
 
IMST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,326
Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
The Pig War. San Juan Island, 1859. US v Canada. No human casualties.

My kinda war!
And the border dispute in question has remained peacefully solved ever since.
__________________
Creativity is more than just being different. Anybody can plan weird; that's easy. What's hard is to be as simple as Bach. Making the simple, awesomely simple, that's creativity. - Charles Mingus
IMST is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 01:37 PM   #85
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But not having fleets of heavy bombers, they can't achieve the same body count figures. They do try, I admit.

You should familiarize yourself with the effects the Combined Bomber Offensive had on Germany during WWII. There were notable. In particular, the Oil and Transportation Plans were key components in ultimately crippling the German war economy (which in turn made Allied victory easier than it would have otherwise been).

Now, that is not to say the Allies didn't make mistakes in prosecuting the aerial war. They certainly did. There were mistakes in tactics, a slowness to recognize that certain pre-war theories were wrong, and other issues. With the benefit of hindsight, the bombing campaign could have been waged far more effectively with fewer casualties (on both sides). But, as the saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

(Of course, if we are going to gift the Allies with the benefit of hindsight, then we ought to grant the Axis the same benefit. In which case the latter recognizes the danger of strategic bombing earlier and does much more to counteract it than it did in reality. In which case perhaps in the end casualties remain largely the same.)
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 02:15 PM   #86
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 8,709
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Don't ask me. Ask the terrorists, your enemies, who do the same thing. But not having fleets of heavy bombers, they can't achieve the same body count figures. They do try, I admit.
You appear to be having difficulty in distinguishing between moral and immoral justifications.

Try this for a mind boggling exercise:

1940: Germany invades France - thousands of French civilians die.

1944: Allies invade France - thousands of French civilians die.


Now, if you really couldn't tell the moral difference between the Allied bomber campaign and terrorist attacks, then I guess you wont be able to tell the difference between those two invasions of France.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 02:19 PM   #87
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That view requires that modern western culture really is a direct descendant of ancient greek culture, rather than simply a response to changing times, circumstances, and technology
Obviously. And I think it is. I am not sure how you could argue otherwise.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 04:01 PM   #88
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 11,679
Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Obviously. And I think it is. I am not sure how you could argue otherwise.
Probably because democratic/republican government died sometime around the time of Octavian and we are living in its second round which didn't start up until centuries later.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 06:27 PM   #89
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Probably because democratic/republican government died sometime around the time of Octavian and we are living in its second round which didn't start up until centuries later.
The Roman Empire ceased to be functionally democratic, but it still preserved the cultural values of the Republic, which were in turn carried over into many western feudal kingdoms.

And even accepting that the Roman Empire stopped being democratic, the principals of democracy survived in both the Roman Empire and subsequent medieval states at various levels.

It was these cultural values and democratic principals, preserved in varying degrees, that ultimately led to the development of modern western civilisation.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 06:52 PM   #90
Baffled
Critical Thinker
 
Baffled's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 332
I believe the most successful war I know of was La guerre des tuques ("The War of the Tuques").

Its success, in my view, can be measured in three ways:

1. There was a total of only one death.
2. The opposing sides joined together in friendship to mourn the one loss.
3. It was entirely make-believe.
Baffled is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 07:56 PM   #91
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
... There was a simple equation: no civilians, no economy; no economy, no military; no military, no war. A military cannot exist without provisions: food, water, fuel, ammunition, spare parts, equipment, armaments, personnel. Those provisions are provided by the civilians in the factories, powered by civilians operating the electricity generating plants and oil refineries, the raw resources and finished provisions transported by railways, trucks, and boats operated by civilians.
That's very clear. In strategic bombing campaigns, civilians are the primary target, and their elimination is the goal. It is thus not the case, as others have suggested, that they are unfortunately subject to collateral damage because they live and work in proximity to important industrial plants an other physical targets.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 08:29 PM   #92
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
 
gumboot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 25,327
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's very clear. In strategic bombing campaigns, civilians are the primary target, and their elimination is the goal. It is thus not the case, as others have suggested, that they are unfortunately subject to collateral damage because they live and work in proximity to important industrial plants an other physical targets.
You are wrong.
__________________

O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti têde
keimetha tois keinon rhémasi peithomenoi.


A fan of fantasy? Check out Project Dreamforge.
gumboot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 09:44 PM   #93
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,301
Originally Posted by geni View Post
Interesting attempt to rewrite history there.
Syria and Jordan supported terrorist attacks on common borders in the years leading up to the 1967 war. The also threatened to invade Isreal on many occasions

The Israelis attacked Egypt with a pre-emptive air strike on June 5 because their intelligence told them they were about to be attacked themselves.

If the Arab nations would leave Israel alone, they will leave the Arab nations alone.

Simple.
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 09:46 PM   #94
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,296
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's very clear. In strategic bombing campaigns, civilians are the primary target, and their elimination is the goal. It is thus not the case, as others have suggested, that they are unfortunately subject to collateral damage because they live and work in proximity to important industrial plants an other physical targets.
You are wrong... In both suggestion and fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

Last edited by Kid Eager; 10th December 2012 at 09:47 PM.
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th December 2012, 11:16 PM   #95
Corsair 115
Penultimate Amazing
 
Corsair 115's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,519
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's very clear. In strategic bombing campaigns, civilians are the primary target, and their elimination is the goal.

The reality is far more complicated and nuanced than that. If one is talking about the WWII experience, the first thing one must do is separate the British and American bombing efforts. After that there are all manner of details that have to be considered and placed into context. To try and reduce the subject to the simplistic rhetoric you are offering does it a great disservice.

Furthermore, if the goal had really just been to kill people and nothing more, then the Allies could have done a vastly more effective job. Chemical weapons (of which the Allies had plenty) and biological weapons, for example, could have been employed. They were not. The Allies would not have wasted time, effort, and crews to attack such things as oil refineries, railway lines, aircraft engine and airframe factories, steel mills, ball bearing plants, and other similar targets. Yet they did attack such targets. If simply plastering a city area was sufficient, the Allies would not have spent the time and effort they did on trying to continually improve bombing accuracy by operational and technological means.
__________________
"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve
to organize and measure the best of our abilities and skills, because that challenge is one we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and
one which we intend to win."

Last edited by Corsair 115; 10th December 2012 at 11:17 PM.
Corsair 115 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 12:38 AM   #96
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
You are wrong... In both suggestion and fact:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing
I was simply inferring a conclusion from Corsair's previous post. No civilians, no war. It is not I who am saying this, but Corsair 115: no civilians, no economy, no military, no war.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 01:04 AM   #97
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,632
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I was simply inferring a conclusion from Corsair's previous post. No civilians, no war. It is not I who am saying this, but Corsair 115: no civilians, no economy, no military, no war.
But that begs the question. What exactly is a civilian in a war where the complete economies and productions of nations are pitted against each other?
WWII wasn't a war of army against army. It was a war of nation against nation (or more precise nation alliance against nation alliance).
Who then is a civilian in this situation of existential war?
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 01:33 AM   #98
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
But that begs the question. What exactly is a civilian in a war where the complete economies and productions of nations are pitted against each other?
WWII wasn't a war of army against army. It was a war of nation against nation (or more precise nation alliance against nation alliance).
Who then is a civilian in this situation of existential war?
International law recognises a difference. WWII was a war of government and armed forces. Germany as a nation didn't invade France as a nation. One regime invaded the territory of another, and the army of that other country was defeated and its rulers capitulated. It was a war in which regimes employed the resources of nations, their own and conquered ones. Thus Germany employed the French economy and industry. But the allies never carpet bombed French cities. They rightly went for significant targets. This indicates that the carpet bombing of Germany was a voluntary act. So was the murderous air onslaught on the unfortunate people of N Korea.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 01:51 AM   #99
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,632
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
International law recognises a difference. WWII was a war of government and armed forces. Germany as a nation didn't invade France as a nation. One regime invaded the territory of another, and the army of that other country was defeated and its rulers capitulated. It was a war in which regimes employed the resources of nations, their own and conquered ones. Thus Germany employed the French economy and industry. But the allies never carpet bombed French cities. They rightly went for significant targets. This indicates that the carpet bombing of Germany was a voluntary act. So was the murderous air onslaught on the unfortunate people of N Korea.
The war was a total war/totaler krieg, where everyone was doing his/her little bit in the ongoing struggle. It is nice that we today make a distinction between government and population, as if the two are seperate entities in the same country that have nothing to do with eachother, but that wasn't the case in WWII (isn't really now, but that is another discussion not for this topic).

Anyway. You didn't really answer my question.
An few examples.
Is the traindriver who delivers the ammunition to the front a civilian? How about the people who repair the tanks? Build the u-boats? And I mean when they are doing their job.

Oh and about those French cities? Ever wonder why the city centre of Le Havre consists only of modern post war buidlings?
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 02:36 AM   #100
Andrew Wiggin
Master Poster
 
Andrew Wiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,915
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
The Man-Kzin Wars, which changed the nature of an entire species.
Might as well call that the 'Puppeteers vs. Everyone else' proxy war.
__________________
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the
world." - Arthur Schopenhauer

"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled,
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in
them?' " - H. G. Wells
Andrew Wiggin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 02:37 AM   #101
Andrew Wiggin
Master Poster
 
Andrew Wiggin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,915
Any war that's not a land war in asia, and doesn't involve going up against a sicilian when death is on the line.
__________________
"Everyone takes the limits of his own vision for the limits of the
world." - Arthur Schopenhauer

"New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled,
the humiliating question arises, 'Why then are you not taking part in
them?' " - H. G. Wells
Andrew Wiggin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 02:40 AM   #102
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,628
What about the 7 Day War? Israel kicked a team of nations butts and took a bunch of land. And they were the ones attacked!!!!

If that isn't success I don't know what is!

Last edited by StankApe; 11th December 2012 at 03:02 AM.
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 02:52 AM   #103
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If the Arab nations would leave Israel alone, they will leave the Arab nations alone.

Simple.
Suez. But nice try.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 02:55 AM   #104
geni
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
geni's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 28,209
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
What about the 7 Day War? Israel kicked a team of nations butts and took a bunch of land. And they were the ones attacked!!!
Err the only thing refered to as the 7 Day War was the Polish–Czechoslovak War in 1919.
geni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 03:01 AM   #105
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,628
wasn't the dang Israeli war against Egypt Syria...etc called that?


I could have mixed my war titles up... I shall google and see and return with my ,very likely, red face


ETA: 6 DAY WAR..........so I was off a day! lol
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 03:03 AM   #106
StankApe
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,628
What about the 7 6 Day War? Israel kicked a team of nations butts and took a bunch of land. And they were the ones attacked!!!!

If that isn't success I don't know what is!
StankApe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 03:23 AM   #107
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Is the traindriver who delivers the ammunition to the front a civilian? How about the people who repair the tanks? Build the u-boats? And I mean when they are doing their job.
Munition trains and military shipyards are legitimate military targets, and outwith the terms of the anti-civilian strategic bombing campaigns, thus irrelevant to this discussion.
Quote:
Oh and about those French cities? Ever wonder why the city centre of Le Havre consists only of modern post war buidlings?
Not since I looked it up and found that civilians were indeed not the target.
Quote:
On 5 September 1944, 335 aircraft from RAF Bomber Command dropped 1,882 tons of bombs on the centre of Le Havre, aiming at a ‘troop concentration’ that was not there.
Asi have wriitten, the Allies rightly limited themselves to significant targets in occupied France, and this is most evidently such a case. Allied ground forces were engaged nearby at the time.
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 03:45 AM   #108
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
 
Oystein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 18,667
Originally Posted by Profanz View Post
...
BTW? The Axis countries are still there. They were not destroyed.
That's perhaps the biggest success of WW2: That the loser countries are still there, prosperous, and good friends with the victors.
Oystein is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 03:53 AM   #109
sphenisc
Philosopher
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,983
The Duchy of Grand Fenwick/USA War
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 03:55 AM   #110
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
 
timhau's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Looks like Finland. Smells like Finland. Quacks like Finland. Where the hell am I?
Posts: 15,161
Originally Posted by Profanz View Post
BTW? The Axis countries are still there. They were not destroyed.
Really? Strange that I can't find the Greater German Reich on the map. Or the Italian Social Republic. Or the Empire of Japan. Even the French State seems to have dissolved somehow.
__________________
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord, in his wisdom, doesn't work that way. I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
- Emo Philips
timhau is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 04:09 AM   #111
Eddie Dane
Philosopher
 
Eddie Dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,681
WWII

Despite it being an absolutely terrible war, the (Western) victors succeeded in implementing their political system of liberal democracy in the conquered countries.
The change was genuine and didn't need to be enforced, once implemented. And it made those countries natural allies of the West.

The Soviet bloc also succeeded in implementing it's political system in the countries it conquered.
For many decades their populations grudgingly wore Bulgarian shoes, drove plastic cars and secretly listened to Jimi Hendrix.
Eddie Dane is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 04:31 AM   #112
Multivac
Master Poster
 
Multivac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,121
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
The Man-Kzin Wars, which changed the nature of an entire species.


Nice to see a fellow Larry Niven fan on the forum.
Multivac is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 04:44 AM   #113
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 25,301
Originally Posted by geni View Post
Suez. But nice try.

Hey perhaps you might want to think about this. Its a hypothetical but....

There are two identical American airliners sitting on the tarmac at a US airport. They are both going to the destination you are travelling to, both departure times are the same, as are the arrival times at your destination i.e. it doesn't matter which one you decide to get on.

You see 5 young Arab men boarding plane "A"

You see 5 young Israeli men boarding plane "B"

I know which one I'll be boarding, do you?
__________________
If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong.

Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 05:08 AM   #114
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,574
Whichever one I happen to have already bought the ticket for.

Seriously, I wouldn't give a crap. The differential odds of a random Arab vs a a random Israeli intending harm are so small as to be a waste of time to worry about. I'd rather spend the same time paying attention to the attitude of people boarding.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 05:47 AM   #115
Damien Evans
Up The Irons
Tagger
 
Damien Evans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 34,458
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hey perhaps you might want to think about this. Its a hypothetical but....

There are two identical American airliners sitting on the tarmac at a US airport. They are both going to the destination you are travelling to, both departure times are the same, as are the arrival times at your destination i.e. it doesn't matter which one you decide to get on.

You see 5 young Arab men boarding plane "A"

You see 5 young Israeli men boarding plane "B"

I know which one I'll be boarding, do you?
Yes, the one I've got a ticket for, lets call it Emirates, an Arabian airline notable for the lack of terrorist attacks using its planes.
__________________
i loves the little birdies they goes tweet tweet tweet hee hee i loves them they sings to each other tweet twet tweet hee hee i loves them they is so cute i love yje little birdies little birdies in the room when birfies sings ther is no gloom i lobes the little birdies they goess tweet tweet tweet hee hee hee i loves them they sings me to sleep sing me to slrrp now little birdies - The wisdom of Shemp.
Damien Evans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 06:42 AM   #116
anglolawyer
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Guilford
Posts: 13,037
Originally Posted by StankApe View Post
wasn't the dang Israeli war against Egypt Syria...etc called that?


I could have mixed my war titles up... I shall google and see and return with my ,very likely, red face


ETA: 6 DAY WAR..........so I was off a day! lol
They rested on the 7th day.

That war is like Trotsky's assessment of whether the French Revolution was a good thing. He thought it was too early to say.
anglolawyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 07:09 AM   #117
Cainkane1
Philosopher
 
Cainkane1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The great American southeast
Posts: 9,008
If you mean profiting by winning a conflict then I'd say the various european wars against the native americans which netted the victors the entire continents.
__________________
If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.
Cainkane1 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 07:13 AM   #118
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 16,040
Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
Obviously. And I think it is. I am not sure how you could argue otherwise.
The argument is simply that culture is, to a large degree, a response to circumstances: that modern democracy evolved not as a continuation of the ancient greek tradition, but rather as a response to the world as it was at the time that it developed

The fact that the individuals involved referenced old ideas and were even influenced by them doesn't suggest that those ideas were themselves instrumental in that development
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 07:15 AM   #119
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
 
aggle-rithm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 15,334
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
World War II not only defeated the Axis but completely destroyed them. The victors completely destroyed the officer/military class of both countries. They partitioned one of the countries. Both had their constitutions rewritten by the victors and both still host the military forces of the victors.
That would be considered extremely successful, had the Allies started it.
__________________
To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.

Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.
aggle-rithm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th December 2012, 07:21 AM   #120
aggle-rithm
Ardent Formulist
 
aggle-rithm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 15,334
Originally Posted by aggle-rithm View Post
That would be considered extremely successful, had the Allies started it.
WWI was very successful in the following way, as described by Dave Barry:

...by 1919 europe had been transformed, at a cost of only several million dead persons, from a group of nations that hated each other into a group of nations that really hated each other.
__________________
To understand recursion, you must first understand recursion.

Woo's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by aliens.
aggle-rithm is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:13 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.