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Old 13th September 2020, 07:22 AM   #121
theprestige
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If there's one thing I've learned over the years, looking at the history of armored vehicles (on Wikipedia), it's that small size and weight are always initial requirements, and are always deleted as soon as serious development work begins.
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Old 13th September 2020, 09:10 AM   #122
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because armoured vehicles that are small in size and weight are never armoured enough or big enough to be of any use.
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Old 13th September 2020, 10:05 AM   #123
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Well, ultimately they do have to be big enough to carry a powerful enough engine, plus enough fuel, plus enough ammo, plus the crew, so ultimately there's only so small you can make one and still have it workable enough as an MBT. The Russians cheated a bit by basically deciding that only short people can be tankers, but even that only saves you so much space. And there's only so much you can go even in that direction, unless you want to go all anime about it and crew the thing with middle school girls.
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Old 13th September 2020, 02:42 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by ohms View Post
Probably my fault for starting the AS90 tangent with some idle speculation.
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Old 13th September 2020, 02:45 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
because armoured vehicles that are small in size and weight are never armoured enough or big enough to be of any use.
Hey now, my favourites are the Weasel, Wiesel and Universal Carrier. All of which I've driven and only one of which has a roof...

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, ultimately they do have to be big enough to carry a powerful enough engine, plus enough fuel, plus enough ammo, plus the crew, so ultimately there's only so small you can make one and still have it workable enough as an MBT. The Russians cheated a bit by basically deciding that only short people can be tankers, but even that only saves you so much space. And there's only so much you can go even in that direction, unless you want to go all anime about it and crew the thing with middle school girls.
Recruit more women. And don't forget autoloaders, drop one fourth of your crew (slightly more after the gunner puts her arm in the wrong spot).
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Old 13th September 2020, 03:04 PM   #126
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Autoloaders?

Whither the Autoloader? for and against.

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Old 13th September 2020, 04:15 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Recruit more women. And don't forget autoloaders, drop one fourth of your crew (slightly more after the gunner puts her arm in the wrong spot).
I'm all for recruiting more women. But lately it's just as much of a problem to find much smaller ones. I mean, the Soviet height limit for tank crews was 170cm tall (about 5'7" for you imperial bastards). You can go a bit below that with women, but not by a whole lot. And considering that she'll be sitting down, you probably can only shave half the height difference off the actual tank height.
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:08 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
And there's only so much you can go even in that direction, unless you want to go all anime about it and crew the thing with middle school girls.
So that's what those crafty Japanese are rehearsing for in their tank documentary series "Girls und Panzer"!
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Old 14th September 2020, 02:48 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Autoloaders?

Whither the Autoloader? for and against.

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I'm generally for, for most of the reasons given. Faster sustained fire, reduced crew volume and the disadvantages are overstated.
Rather like bullpups....
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:58 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I'm generally for, for most of the reasons given. Faster sustained fire, reduced crew volume and the disadvantages are overstated.
Rather like bullpups....
Bullpups.

No.
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Old 14th September 2020, 02:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Bullpups.

No.
Oh yes.
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Old 14th September 2020, 02:35 PM   #132
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Why Bullpups?

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Old 14th September 2020, 03:11 PM   #133
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yt;dw, but I bet the advantages of bullpups don't outweigh the costs of converting a large user base to them.
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Old 14th September 2020, 03:23 PM   #134
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It is telling that the French have not selected another bullpup to replace the Famas.
It was the best of them.
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Old 14th September 2020, 04:33 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why Bullpups?
Thanks for the video. I didn't know what a bullpup was.

I'm left handed and have never fired a firearm. I sort of understand the video's point on a firearm needing to be ambidextrous. I wonder how the WWII army trainers dealt with left handed recruits and bolt action rifles. A bolt action rifle is for right handed people right?
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Old 14th September 2020, 04:40 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Thanks for the video. I didn't know what a bullpup was.

I'm left handed and have never fired a firearm. I sort of understand the video's point on a firearm needing to be ambidextrous. I wonder how the WWII army trainers dealt with left handed recruits and bolt action rifles. A bolt action rifle is for right handed people right?
During war? Everybody just makes do with the equipment.

BUT.

Nothing about a bullpup makes it magically ambidextrous. It's just that most bullpup designs are new, and newer designs often include ergonomic features like ambidexterity.

When I was in the service, left-handed shooters were issued a plastic deflector that mounted outside the ejection port. It did a reasonable job of keeping hot brass off the shooter.
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Old 14th September 2020, 04:58 PM   #137
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Only advantage of a bullpups was a reduced overall length for the same barrel length of a conventional rifle.
Reduced length is useful in a vehicle or helicopter.
With the reduction in barrel length seen over the last couple of decades the benefit is marginal and the disadvantages outweigh it.
Linked video covers most of it.
Inrange has other bullpups focused vids as does Forgotten Weapons.
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Old 14th September 2020, 04:59 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Thanks for the video. I didn't know what a bullpup was.

I'm left handed and have never fired a firearm. I sort of understand the video's point on a firearm needing to be ambidextrous. I wonder how the WWII army trainers dealt with left handed recruits and bolt action rifles. A bolt action rifle is for right handed people right?
Pretty much by telling them to suck it up. Essentially the rifle is just as usable when you aim with your left or with your right eye, so either one you prefer, you can knock yourself out. You'll probably still have to operate the bolt with your right hand, but that's not something that requires a lot of finesse or anything.

As far as I know -- with the usual caveat that I'm not a real historian -- NONE of the major powers involved has produced a left-handed rifle.

Edit: well, semi-automatic weapons like the Garand had an advantage in that you didn't have to operate the bolt with the wrong hand after each shot, but that was more like happy coincidence than anything planned. And the Garand wasn't issued to front line troops anyway, so for the vast majority of soldiers that had no impact whatsoever.
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Old 14th September 2020, 05:43 PM   #139
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As I recall, the Martini-Henry rifle I used for target shooting 25 years ago was close to ambidextrous. Safety catch on right hand side, though.
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Old 14th September 2020, 09:02 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
---snip---
As far as I know -- with the usual caveat that I'm not a real historian -- NONE of the major powers involved has produced a left-handed rifle.
---snip---
There is the Steyr AUG, which can be user configured to right or left handed. That somewhat solved the ambidexterity issues.
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Old 15th September 2020, 01:56 AM   #141
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I was answering a question about WWII. The Stey AUG was designed in the 1960's, so it's a bit late for WW2.
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Old 15th September 2020, 03:40 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Pope130 View Post
There is the Steyr AUG, which can be user configured to right or left handed. That somewhat solved the ambidexterity issues.
As can the Famas as pointed out in the linked vid. Also the other rifle featured in the video can be configured right or left handed.
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Old 15th September 2020, 03:56 AM   #143
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The FAMAS was designed in 1967, so it's still too late for WW2, which is what I was answering about. After WW2, sure, people started giving more thought to making the best use of left-handed soldiers, but in WW2 it just wasn't that much of a priority. If anyone had lefties even on the radar in WW2, so to speak, it was at most at the level of "don't have them shoot the machinegun".
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Old 15th September 2020, 11:07 AM   #144
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British SA-80 is right hand only although it is possible to use it left hand and not get a case in the chin.
As pointed out in the video making the gun ambidextrous makes it difficult to clear any problems and even see the chamber.
Famas and Aug aren't ambidextrous as such, rather they can be configured left or right handed. There is a difference.
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Old 15th September 2020, 12:40 PM   #145
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bullpup pistols?

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follow up video.

Shooting the bullpup pistol

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Old 15th September 2020, 02:40 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
None of that stuff matters. The Greeks aren't bothering with hollow statues anymore.
Damn! Slightly buggers up Sir Terry Pratchetts Pyramids...

[For heathens, when one kingdom disappears for 'other reasons' the two adjacent kingdoms go to war and both of them meet up and build giant horses to hold their men convinced the others are going to fall for it again!]
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Old 15th September 2020, 02:54 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Actually, you wouldn't be in the blast radius, because HEAT is not just HE. It directs the blast forward. It's not just launching some big bomb at the enemy.

In his case, the charge malfunctioned and exploded in the PIAT, but even then he was basically just temporarily blinded by the flash.

Also, for all its disadvantages, the PIAT had one MAJOR advantage compared to a bazooka. There was no jet out the back. You could fire it from a building, or in a trench with a wall behind you, like this guy did. You try the same with a rocket, you just killed yourself (and everyone else in the room) horribly.
You will still get back blast even from a HEAT round as it doesn't fully consume the round (most of the penetrator is formed from the cone former). Looking into it in more detail, apparently I was incorrect on the range. It 'could' hit targets just over 100m direct and 350m indirect! I really thought it was a much more range limited weapon. Turns out the round had a booster charge that also had the benefit of recocking the PIAT.

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Old 15th September 2020, 02:57 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
Turns out the round had a booster charge that also had the benefit of recocking the PIAT.
If you were lucky
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Old 15th September 2020, 02:59 PM   #149
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wrong thread

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Old 15th September 2020, 03:51 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
You will still get back blast even from a HEAT round as it doesn't fully consume the round (most of the penetrator is formed from the cone former). Looking into it in more detail, apparently I was incorrect on the range. It 'could' hit targets just over 100m direct and 350m indirect! I really thought it was a much more range limited weapon. Turns out the round had a booster charge that also had the benefit of recocking the PIAT.
Well, of course it's still an explosion. It's dangerous. But as they found out when using it in an indirect fire role, the kill radius was VERY limited even if you lobbed it into a trench. So basically it wasn't all that hard to be at a safe-ish distance. Well, in as much as any place can be safe when crap is being blown up.
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:45 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Edit: well, semi-automatic weapons like the Garand had an advantage in that you didn't have to operate the bolt with the wrong hand after each shot, but that was more like happy coincidence than anything planned. And the Garand wasn't issued to front line troops anyway, so for the vast majority of soldiers that had no impact whatsoever.
That is a pretty serious claim that the M1 Garand was not issued to front line troops. What is your source for americans sticking with the Springfield?
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:50 AM   #152
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Garand was the main US service rifle through WW2 and in to Korea.
It was the best service rifle of the war.
It certainly did have a bolt handle on the right.

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Old 21st September 2020, 09:08 AM   #153
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Before we get the Garand myths popping up.

Bloke on the Range dispels them all

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Ping will get you killed?

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Old 21st September 2020, 09:48 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Captain Swoop has already referenced this in another thread but I think this deserves its own thread.

The UK's tank fleet is old, outdated and knackered. We could buy tanks from someone else (but that would be a loss of face, especially if we buy from the Germans post-Brexit ), we could upgrade or develop new ones ourselves (but we'll likely end up overspending by billions and delivering something useless.

The army is considering doing without tanks altogether.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53909087

I'm a pacifist who is generally opposed to military spending but if we're going to have an army then I'd like the poor ******** serving in it to have adequate equipment.

It seems to me that every time the government decide to change strategy, they end up with an expensive and useless boondoggle which is ill-suited to the type of conflict we're facing. We went for expensive high-end weapons systems; one-size-doesn't-quite-fit-all F35s lots of "cyber" when it seems for the last 15 years we've needed robust, low-tech systems to help fight guerrilla wars in sandy places. Our soldiers needed proper armoured transports, not "snatch" landrovers, decent body armour and reliable weapons.

I'm concerned that we'll ditch the idea of tanks, only to find out in a few years time that they're jolly useful.

Nah, what’s the point of tanks when you have no land borders?
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Old 26th October 2020, 07:25 AM   #155
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Some current, real world experience (unfortunately).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/attack...-future-of-war

“We have for a long time declared tanks to be dead without it happening... but tanks have not done well in the current crisis”
— Ian Williams, missile defense expert

You're welcome.
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Old 26th October 2020, 08:35 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Some current, real world experience (unfortunately).

https://www.thedailybeast.com/attack...-future-of-war

“We have for a long time declared tanks to be dead without it happening... but tanks have not done well in the current crisis”
— Ian Williams, missile defense expert

You're welcome. : whistling
Loitering munitions have been around for decades. As have long range artillery, CAS, and interdiction bombing. Also around for decades: The understanding that successful combined arms operations must in fact combine various kinds of arms.

The problem the Armenians are having is not that drones are superweapons never before imagined by gods or men. The problem is that the Armenians don't have adequate cover against air attacks.

Drones change the contours of the air portion of the air-land battle a little bit. They don't magically make tanks obsolete. When you think about it, why would they?
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Old 26th October 2020, 09:49 AM   #157
Gord_in_Toronto
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Loitering munitions have been around for decades. As have long range artillery, CAS, and interdiction bombing. Also around for decades: The understanding that successful combined arms operations must in fact combine various kinds of arms.

The problem the Armenians are having is not that drones are superweapons never before imagined by gods or men. The problem is that the Armenians don't have adequate cover against air attacks.

Drones change the contours of the air portion of the air-land battle a little bit. They don't magically make tanks obsolete. When you think about it, why would they?
"Generals Always Fight The Last War".
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Old 26th October 2020, 10:44 AM   #158
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The Armenians are going to war with the air defenses they have, not the air defenses they wish to have or plan to have at a later date.

Tanks didn't become obsolete with the advent of attack aircrat in WW2. Quite the opposite. And attack aircraft didn't become obsolete with the advent of SPAAGs and SAMS in the 50s and 60s. Again, quite the opposite. And air defense systems didn't become obsolete with the advent of SEAD. Etc.


ETA:
Kamikaze drones purchased from Israel have been used to devastating effect by Azerbaijan. These small craft also known as loitering munitions are able to surveil targets including tanks, artillery installations or troops before blowing themselves up. Larger Turkish drones are also flying high above the disputed region and launching missile strikes.
Your magic tank-destroyers are literally just cruise missiles and bombers. I dunno about most generals, but it's pretty clear that the Armenian and Turkish generals are fighting not just the last war, but pretty much every war since the beginning of air power.

It's the same basic war as Desert Storm, where superior coalition air power destroyed a ton of Iraqi armor. But superior coalition land power (armor) *also* destroyed a ton of Iraqi armor. Because tanks aren't actually obsoleted by air power.

Last edited by theprestige; 26th October 2020 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 26th October 2020, 04:51 PM   #159
Matthew Ellard
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I think that we all agree that actual soldiers are needed to capture and hold ground. That means still moving humans around the battlefield in some sort of armoured vehicle.

For this reason, I do think tanks will change a bit in their nature, but tanks will still be required to accompany armoured personnel carriers.

Already the IDF's Merkava tank can hold 6 soldiers in addition to the crew. Perhaps these hybrids are the future? I don't know.

I do think missiles and drones are a problem for both APCs and AFV. I don't know, but I guess the solution will be some new combination of high speed anti-missile machine gun, explosive reactive armour, and new forms of laminate armour......and some real testing in a real battlefield environment.
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Old 26th October 2020, 05:23 PM   #160
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Various anti-missile point defense systems for tanks are already out there being tested. Jamming systems for drones are already out there being tested. I expect the third component will be some sort of updated SPAAG, optimized for relatively short ranges and small targets.

Anyway, nobody looks at cruise missiles and interdiction bombers and says, "welp, land warfare is obsolete, better take all my troops off the battlefield." What they actually do is add more troops to the battlefield: specifically, air defense troops. Warfare becomes partly a problem of creating enough space in the air for your ground forces to survive on the ground, long enough to complete their mission. That's the way it's been since roughly WWI, and nothing about the current drone situation changes that.

The next big change is going to be cybernetic. Armies are going to start fielding more electronic warfare and cyber-warfare troops. Their goal will be to create enough space on the electronic/informational battlefield for the air and ground troops to survive through their mission.

A robust swarm of drones won't make tanks obsolete. It'll just make tanks bring an EW escort along with their SPAAGs, MANPADs, artillery, infantry, etc.
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