IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
View Poll Results: Is is okay to insult opponents on their views?
Not just okay, but a duty! 8 10.53%
Yes, it is okay to insult opponents. 15 19.74%
No, it is not effective. 27 35.53%
No, it is dehumanizing. 18 23.68%
I don't have an opinion on this. 2 2.63%
XXXX you, snowflake! 6 7.89%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 9th February 2021, 10:21 AM   #1041
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,529
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Just not concerned enough to decry those who vote for them.
Ecclesiastes 1:2
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2021, 10:41 AM   #1042
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,422
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it voting for a white supremacists for president is not any kind of endorsement of white supremacy and not a character flaw. Despite it being a literal endorsement of white supremacy.

Most of the republican party other than the Lincoln Project seem to be pretty OK with the mainstreaming of white nationalist thought.
There's also the problem where nationalists, combined with goofball historical notions like the "one drop" rule, end up inevitably leading to genocide - if "whiteness" is recessive to the point where any notable nonwhite ancestry renders one "nonwhite", you end up with foolishness like White Genocide/Great Replacement ideas where merely having sex with another race is self-destructive. And people won't stop doing that crap - hell, the loudest proponents expose their...fetishes by using words like "cuck" as insults.

So how do you prevent people of different races from having sex, when "whiteness" is effectively defined as "not one of these other races" and little else? Well, you have to wipe out the nonwhite people. That's the problem with contrasting Nazi wannabes with "other" white nationalists, they're really the same thing.

That's putting aside the fact that at this point, there's little to the GOP aside from personality cultism, political white supremacism, and culture-based fears and insecurities - thus the 2020 GOP platform of "We want whatever Toupee Fiasco does". No shock that they devolved into this mess during two terms of the first black US president, followed by an open white supremacist and malignant narcissist with no real policy ideas from their own party. Or, in other words, the CHUD party.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2021, 11:29 AM   #1043
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,529
The subject of free will and whether we even have it came up on another thread. Some yahoos think we have none, and make no choices. Kind of screws up the blame game here.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2021, 05:04 PM   #1044
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 70,273
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems to me that way too much importance is given to this whole "deradicalization" narrative than is deserved or practical. Talking KKK members into leaving the movement makes for good day-time television, but doesn't strike me as a high priority solution for dealing with the dangers of a resurgent extremist-right in this, or any, country.

By all accounts from successful deradicalization stories, it requires tremendous effort, time, and emotional labor, on an individual level, to even have a chance of getting these people to change their ways. I very much doubt this is a scalable effort for dealing with the national threat of fascists.

instead of worrying about saving KKK members or Nazis, much better to deal with the huge parts of the population that aren't radicalized and convince them of the need to take up a more stridently anti-fascist (or anti-rascist, whatever) position. It's not about convincing skinheads to leave the movement, it's about convincing ordinary, largely non-political people, to care about the problem. It's about establishing social norms that put a firm boundary that discourage people from falling down the path of right wing radicalization.

In that regards, shining a negative and very public light on these people is a useful exercise. Ostracization is the goal, not because it's a useful tool for deradicalizing these people, but because it's a useful tool for making these people less effective and dangerous in spreading their movement to new members. A nazi getting fired might not change that nazi's mind, but it certainly can have an impact on some nazi-curious person that decides it's not worth the risk.
This may be one of the most cogent and coherent points so far made in this thread, and I thank you for making it.

We often talk when posting on skeptic forums about not arguing to convince the believer, but to convince the lurkers and the fencesitters. It's the same thing here. Problem is, by its nature there is no evidence that it works. We just don't know. We kind of can't.

Also, I'm pretty sure that "radical" is not a binary (where have I heard this before? ). There are some who are fiercely radicalised and absolutely committed to their ideology to the point of literal martyrdom. And then there are those who just bought a MAGA hat and likes beer. The former will require much more effort to deradicalise than the latter.

Did anyone see the full interview between Anderson Cooper and the ex-Qanon guy? I never saw the full thing. What was his story? How committed was he to the Qanon ideology and what did it take to deradicalise him?
__________________
Please scream inside your heart.
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2021, 07:36 PM   #1045
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,390
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The subject of free will and whether we even have it came up on another thread. Some yahoos think we have none, and make no choices. Kind of screws up the blame game here.
Are you taking the nuclear option then?

Instead of trying to argue for why we cannot or should not lump a lot of people together and say they are reprehensible for their views, you now decide to do away with all judgment whatsoever and say we have no free will.

Of course, this is a double-edged sword as it undercuts your own moralizing when it comes to name-calling.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2021, 09:04 PM   #1046
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 13,529
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Are you taking the nuclear option then?

Instead of trying to argue for why we cannot or should not lump a lot of people together and say they are reprehensible for their views, you now decide to do away with all judgment whatsoever and say we have no free will.

Of course, this is a double-edged sword as it undercuts your own moralizing when it comes to name-calling.
Nah. Just thought it was funny.

Btw, when someone refers to proponents as yahoos, they likely don't share their views. Also, I don't mean to moralize. It's more the childishness that I don't like.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th February 2021, 05:52 AM   #1047
SuburbanTurkey
Philosopher
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 8,009
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
We often talk when posting on skeptic forums about not arguing to convince the believer, but to convince the lurkers and the fencesitters. It's the same thing here. Problem is, by its nature there is no evidence that it works. We just don't know. We kind of can't.
That's the rub, isn't it? We really only have the foggiest notion of where these people are. It's easier to look at the overtly political, people like you and me on message boards or red capped freaks frothing at the mouth at some fascist MAGA rally, but we're just the vocal minority.

It's tempting to focus on these people because they are visible and it's easier to tell if there is an impact, but it doesn't mean this is the best segment of the population to focus our efforts on.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th February 2021, 11:33 AM   #1048
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 14,804
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Some people in this thread are arguing that it should be acceptable to dehumanize "those people" because they don't deserve to be treated as human. Some of them have been tap-dancing around advocating that "those people" don't deserve the same legal protections and rights, and that it should be allowable (maybe even morally obligatory) to harass and threaten them... and perhaps the fact that "those people" are so very bad it's even appropriate to pre-emptively attack them in order to silence them.
Example...
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Fire up them torches, time for some riots.
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:41 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.