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Tags trial , evolution , intelligent design , dover id trial

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Old 18th October 2005, 09:09 AM   #41
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There's an amusing column about Behe's testimony by Mike Argento.

Some more of Argento's columns are linked from the ACLUPA blog.
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Old 18th October 2005, 05:47 PM   #42
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Argh! I have become a transcript junky! I need my fix!
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Old 18th October 2005, 07:47 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
Argh! I have become a transcript junky! I need my fix!
Wait for the cross, wait for the cross
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Old 19th October 2005, 06:30 AM   #44
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Another Mike Argento column about Behe.

ETA: And one from New Scientist.
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Old 19th October 2005, 06:37 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Another Mike Argento column about Behe.
Nice.
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Old 19th October 2005, 06:38 AM   #46
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...but it is mere methadone...I need my transcripts...
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Old 19th October 2005, 06:43 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Another Mike Argento column about Behe.
For deeper scientific insights into ID Creationism and the Dover case, try The Panda´s Thumb. Granted, the above column is fun to read, and these IDC clowns get all the ridicule they deserve.
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Old 19th October 2005, 06:50 AM   #48
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Could someone get a list of all these good links together so I can add them to the box on the forum homepage? - TIA
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Old 19th October 2005, 08:13 AM   #49
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Witness says God isn't only possible designer
Quote:
Behe testified Tuesday that intelligent design, unlike creationism, does not make references to religion or religious text. Although he said he believes that the intelligent designer is God, he said the intelligent design movement does not identify the designer and that there could be other causes.
Because any other, non-supernatural, designer then has the sticky question of the origins of the designer, doesn't it?

Anyway, this is really why I linked the article:
Quote:
But during the cross-examination of Behe, ACLU attorney Eric Rothschild reminded the court that the National Academy of Scientists, the American Association for the Advancement of Science and even the biology department at Lehigh University, have denounced the idea of intelligent design.

''So you have not been able to convince your colleagues,'' Rothschild said to Behe after reading a statement from Behe's peers.

The statement, posted on Lehigh's Web site, reads in part:

''While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally, and should not be regarded as scientific.''

Behe said the department's statement has no scientific importance. ''Intelligent design is certainly not the dominant view of the scientific community,'' he said, ''but I'm very pleased with the progress we're making.''
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Old 19th October 2005, 09:03 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
Perhaps the problem is that the Church of England has lacked extremist, fundamentalist, waggly beard bigots for so long that the folk down south have forgotten what religious bigotry is like.
I hate religious bigotry. In fact, I despise all forms of inlaid decoration.
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Old 19th October 2005, 09:33 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
...but it is mere methadone...I need my transcripts...
I feel your pain. I've still got a hole in my soul from the missing transcripts of Days 2(am), 3(am) and 4...
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Old 19th October 2005, 01:04 PM   #52
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I think the plaintiffs should call Hovind to the stand.
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Old 19th October 2005, 01:39 PM   #53
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or Jack Chick

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1051/1051_01.asp
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Old 19th October 2005, 03:25 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by KingMerv00 View Post
I think the plaintiffs should call Hovind to the stand.
Thank you for editing out the apostrophe!
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Old 19th October 2005, 11:52 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Classic Chick! It has freaky looking kids, evil Semetic teachers, unsupported nonsense which is basically hate speech... But I liked it better when it was called Big Daddy. I miss the part about atoms being held together by Jesus!
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Old 20th October 2005, 01:03 AM   #56
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I want to known on which day did God created Suzy, since she appears to be becoming intelligently designed into a hamster.

And if YOU believe in Evolution instead of Jesus (and how in Chickworld could you believe in both?) you'll end up in hell. So thats almost everyone I've ever known, most of whom are Christians, in Hell. What a nice loving religion Chick has, the worship of the appeal to fear.
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Old 20th October 2005, 02:15 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Odin View Post

And if YOU believe in Evolution instead of Jesus (and how in Chickworld could you believe in both?) you'll end up in hell.
I love all the references to precious blood. That's surely something that all the kids will like!
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Old 20th October 2005, 02:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Witness says God isn't only possible designer
Because any other, non-supernatural, designer then has the sticky question of the origins of the designer, doesn't it?
Of course the intelligent designer doesnt have to be God, only someone with the basic skillset and powers to create an entire functioning universe and humans in his image from the ground up.
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Old 20th October 2005, 02:32 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Yahweh View Post
Of course the intelligent designer doesnt have to be God, only someone with the basic skillset and powers to create an entire functioning universe and humans in his image from the ground up.
And is so simple that it didn't need to be designed.
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Old 20th October 2005, 02:34 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And is so simple that it didn't need to be designed.

Hold on if it was so simple it didn't need a designer to design it that means that complexity can arise from simplicity.. oops...
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Old 20th October 2005, 02:52 AM   #61
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From the New Scientist article (Mojo's link above) -

Talking about Behe's cross examination - "“You've got to admire the guy. It’s Daniel in the lion’s den,” says Robert Slade, a local retiree who has been attending the trial because he is interested in science. "But I can’t believe he teaches a college biology class.""


Sorry, Mr. Slade, I just cannot admire Behe.
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Old 20th October 2005, 04:04 AM   #62
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Well, it's a fine line between courage and stupidity, and I think I know which side Behe's on. Still, I think Mr. Slade's incredulity concerning Behe's academic chops is of more import to this case than his admiration of Behe's guts.
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Old 20th October 2005, 04:52 AM   #63
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Agreed. Personally I read into Mr. Slade's comments that possibly the only thing he admired about Behe was his guts.
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Old 20th October 2005, 05:21 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by bighairygoat View Post
Agreed. Personally I read into Mr. Slade's comments that possibly the only thing he admired about Behe was his guts.
He certainly couldn't admire his brains, that's for sure.
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Old 20th October 2005, 06:07 AM   #65
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Okay, I think I'm officially in "transcript withdrawl". These short articles aren't doing it for me anymore.
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Old 20th October 2005, 06:23 AM   #66
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I'm not sure if I can admire Behe's guts. If he had them, he'd come up with a testable ID hypothesis and test it.
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Old 20th October 2005, 06:32 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by BronzeDog View Post
I'm not sure if I can admire Behe's guts. If he had them, he'd come up with a testable ID hypothesis and test it.
If he had guts, he would state clearly what he wants: A religious tyranny.
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Old 20th October 2005, 06:52 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by BronzeDog View Post
I'm not sure if I can admire Behe's guts.
On display in a natural history museum as an example of some of the wonderful things evolution has produced? "This, children, is the alimentary canal."
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Old 20th October 2005, 06:57 AM   #69
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"And this is the theory of intelligent design, which emerges from this end."
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Old 20th October 2005, 07:58 AM   #70
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Transcripts for days 7, 8 and 9 are available here.
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Old 20th October 2005, 08:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Could someone get a list of all these good links together so I can add them to the box on the forum homepage? - TIA
ACLUPA blog
A "creationist science" text book becomes an "intelligent design" textbook
Dover trial transcripts (Not yet updated with days 7, 8 and 9)
Audio analysis
Mike Argento column
Mike Argento column 2
New Scientist column
Witness says God isn't only possible designer

How's that?
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Old 20th October 2005, 08:57 AM   #72
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Great thanks
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Old 20th October 2005, 09:07 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by bighairygoat View Post
Transcripts for days 7, 8 and 9 are available here.
The first session of Behe is up as well now, but no cross yet.
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Old 20th October 2005, 09:16 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by bighairygoat View Post
Transcripts for days 7, 8 and 9 are available here.
W00t! My hero!

[edit:] Wait. Where? All I'm seeing are the two transcripts for day 6 on the ACLU:Pennsylvania site.

[edit again:] Never mind, I found em. They hadn't updated the transcript page yet.
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Old 20th October 2005, 09:28 AM   #75
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Arrgah! I can't stand it when people try claiming that science and religious faith are compatible. They're nothing of the sort, which is precisely why it's inappropriate to teach religious doctrines in a science class.
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Old 20th October 2005, 09:55 AM   #76
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I'm not a scientist, but I do look like one.

In glancing through Behe's testimony, nuch is made of the fact that biological structures are referred to as machines, and that this is not a metaphor, but a definition of the structure. Behe then says that because it is a machine, that means it's designed.

If I toss a loose deck of cards into a corner, one or more of the cards may be propped against the wall. That propped card is an inclined plane, a simple machine. Would Behe's "inductive reasoning" lead him to believe that it was designed, or would he concede that a machine can be produced through random processes?

The other point I'd like to make is about the "simple test" that neither side will do: take a bacteria with no flagellum and, over the course of a couple of years, apply selective pressures over 10,000 generations. If the bacteria develop flagella, that would, according to the article, "prove" evolution.

To me, this a very poorly designed test that would prove nothing to either side.

Outcome 1: No flagellum.
ID: See? God/Designer did it.
Evolutionist: What made us think we could apply just the right combination of selective pressures to produce the predetermined outcome? This is stupid! It proves nothing.

Outcome 2: Flagellum.
ID: See? God/Designer did it.
Evolutionist: Wow! I did it! Man, I hope someone else is able to read my notes and replicate this sucker!
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Old 20th October 2005, 12:47 PM   #77
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http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/new...10_18_2005.asp

please read the last paragraph carefully...
This is really, really troubling. Frightening, even...
science standing in the way of an education?
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Old 20th October 2005, 03:56 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/new...10_18_2005.asp

please read the last paragraph carefully...
This is really, really troubling. Frightening, even...
science standing in the way of an education?
Frightening, yes. But also illustrative of the fact that ID is one big hoax--they know it's not science.
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Old 20th October 2005, 06:56 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Frightening, yes. But also illustrative of the fact that ID is one big hoax--they know it's not science.
One thing that bothers me about all the legal wrangling is that logic goes out the window.
The "Watchmaker" bit about assuming a designer bothers me. If I see an inanimate mechanism, yes, I assume a designer. A Chevy small block canot reproduce, or we'd all be up to our ears in them.
some things-An arch, for example, I can ascribe to natural processes-the Desert Southwest is full of the bloody things. But the anthropomorphization (Huh?) of watches and such by comparing them to living beings escapes me.
Maybe I'm not logical enough?
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Old 21st October 2005, 03:18 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
One thing that bothers me about all the legal wrangling is that logic goes out the window.
The "Watchmaker" bit about assuming a designer bothers me. If I see an inanimate mechanism, yes, I assume a designer. A Chevy small block canot reproduce, or we'd all be up to our ears in them.
some things-An arch, for example, I can ascribe to natural processes-the Desert Southwest is full of the bloody things. But the anthropomorphization (Huh?) of watches and such by comparing them to living beings escapes me.
Maybe I'm not logical enough?
I feel the same way about mousetraps. The most damning aspect of the mousetrap as a useful analogy is the fact that it requires a human (or a clever orangutan, perhaps) to set it and bait it in order for it to have any capability whatsoever for trapping mice. How can this be compared to a living thing?
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