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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 24th June 2016, 08:04 PM   #41
cullennz
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
During his criminal trial? You're not just unfamiliar with the case, you're unfamiliar with how law works. You can't "settle" with the prosecution to exclude evidence of the thing they're trying to convict you of!
The private accusations
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:05 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then why did he pay them off?
He didn't. His insurance company did, against his wishes. Again, there are several excellent write-ups of the case done afterward, minus the media frenzy. What was reported was the salacious, ratings-friendly accusations. What was not reported was how all the accusations fell apart on cross-examination. A typical problem when all the witnesses have prior perjury convictions, and evidence is brought in of their other extortion attempts on other targets.

But I suspect I'm wasting my time. You've decided Jackson must have been guilty and will not consider anything, including the mountain of evidence that got him off in the trial.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:05 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Denver View Post
It was during this trial that I first became aware of Nancy Grace. She was so sure, so positive, of his guilt, and I just never got why.

And then we learned of the evidence and the verdict.

I've never seen a reason to watch her again since.
My wife used to watch her. According to Nancy, there's never been an innocent defendant in the entire history of jurisprudence. Except for cops charged with crimes; all of them were innocent.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:07 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The private accusations
"Private accusations" don't reach the collection of evidence stage. Any "evidence" came from the unsuccessful prosecution.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:13 PM   #45
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Here's a place to start:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charle..._b_610258.html
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:13 PM   #46
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You mean the alleged 200 million in payouts
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:14 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You mean the alleged 200 million in payouts
Read the link, and then see if you still have the same opinion.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:16 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Because he had a group of some of the best and most expensive lawyers in the US saying it was art and to go settle for a pay off
You're just proving you have no idea what you're talking about. If the authorities believed the images were child porn they absolutely would have charged him with that. There would have been nobody to pay off (unless you want to say that the authorities were corrupt).
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:19 PM   #49
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The way MJ was treated has always saddened me. From being his family's cash cow to the horrific burns and subsequent surgeries to the child abuse allegations, the man had it rough.

I really doubt he ever did anything really wrong. He was eccentric for sure, and might've had quite a few boundary issues, but I never saw any real evidence presented that he was the monster the media portrayed him to be. I wasn't surprised he was acquitted, but I was surprised no one ever just let it go and moved on.

Until he died. Then suddenly he wasn't "Jacko" anymore, but rather a talented celebrity darling to be given every measure of respect. Far too late for him to appreciate a moment's worth.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:20 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Denver View Post
It was during this trial that I first became aware of Nancy Grace. She was so sure, so positive, of his guilt, and I just never got why.
My guess is, because of the highly suggestive evidence of pedophilia the investigation revealed. Evidence of pedophilia isn't the same as evidence a particular child was molested; but Nancy Grace seems to be a loyal subscriber to the "where there's smoke, there's probably fire" philosophy.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:34 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
The way MJ was treated has always saddened me. From being his family's cash cow to the horrific burns and subsequent surgeries to the child abuse allegations, the man had it rough.

I really doubt he ever did anything really wrong. He was eccentric for sure, and might've had quite a few boundary issues, but I never saw any real evidence presented that he was the monster the media portrayed him to be. I wasn't surprised he was acquitted, but I was surprised no one ever just let it go and moved on.

Until he died. Then suddenly he wasn't "Jacko" anymore, but rather a talented celebrity darling to be given every measure of respect. Far too late for him to appreciate a moment's worth.
He probably did have a horrible childhood.

He also messed with little boys
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:43 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
He also messed with little boys
Evidence?

Because a multi-milliondollar prosecution couldn't find any. They even tried to manufacture some but it didn't work. So I'm certain that a great skeptic like yourself has much better evidence for this claim. Because if you didn't, you would just be airing a completely baseless opinion you formed from consuming media reports.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:44 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Evidence?

Because a multi-milliondollar prosecution couldn't find any. They even tried to manufacture some but it didn't work. So I'm certain that a great skeptic like yourself has much better evidence for this claim. Because if you didn't, you would just be airing a completely baseless opinion you formed from consuming media reports.
The private cases obviously could or he wouldn't have paid millions in shut up money
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:45 PM   #54
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Quote:
He also messed with little boys
Evidence?

I followed the story pretty closely from day one, and found myself arguing against a tide 'til I just couldn't speak about it at all anymore.

But never once did I see anything that convinced me he was guilty of anything except being eccentric and a handy target for those who wanted to imagine ways to channel his wealth into their own pockets.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:51 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The private cases obviously could or he wouldn't have paid millions in shut up money
Including the case where the accuser recanted afterward?

You are determined to believe Jackson guilty, aren't you? Does an attachment to a theory, with no evidence, and a refusal to examine the evidence and consider other points of view seem skeptical to you?

You won't even read that link I posted.

Your "obvious" finding is a feeling, not a rational assessment of the facts.
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Old 24th June 2016, 08:53 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
He probably did have a horrible childhood.

He also messed with little boys
But did he? That's what's not so certain. One can say he might have, and one can say that he would have liked to, but might have is not did, and liked to is not did. There were plenty of people who really seem to have been invested in proving that he did certain things, but they lost.

I'm willing to say that Jackson was not my kind of guy. That he was weird and creepy and any number of other things. We can even speculate about what he would have liked to do if he thought he could. But it is unseemly to say he did things that there is no reliable evidence that he did. You can say he pushed right up to the edge of the boundaries, but if he did not cross them, then you can't say he did. That's what boundaries are.
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But did he? That's what's not so certain. One can say he might have, and one can say that he would have liked to, but might have is not did, and liked to is not did. There were plenty of people who really seem to have been invested in proving that he did certain things, but they lost.

I'm willing to say that Jackson was not my kind of guy. That he was weird and creepy and any number of other things. We can even speculate about what he would have liked to do if he thought he could. But it is unseemly to say he did things that there is no reliable evidence that he did. You can say he pushed right up to the edge of the boundaries, but if he did not cross them, then you can't say he did. That's what boundaries are.
Sleeping with little boys who aren't related to h doesn't pass boundaries
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:09 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Michael Jackson was a Bad Guy....he was the Scum that you assert.

Nevertheless, I am in awe of Jackson's ability to take pedophilia to an Art Form that would make the Roman Emperor Caligula Jealous without anyone seriously blowing the whistle on him. I mean, I just can't imagine the Mind Control Jackson must have exerted on his Family, Friends, Parents, Victims, Doctors and Bodyguards while all this was going on. Jackson must have possessed a Reality Distortion Field (RDF) that made the Steve Jobs Reality Distortion Field (RDF) pale in comparison...or even Charlie Manson's RDF!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field

Seriously...MJ was one Mind-Controlling Dude.
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:14 PM   #59
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Several people have "blown the whistle" on Jackson. The criminal trial failed to prove he was guilty of molesting one alleged victim; but are you unaware that two separate lawsuits by two different men accusing Jackson of molesting them as children are presently outstanding against Jackson's estate?
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:16 PM   #60
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Not really.

Just another Savile, Rolph Harris and Glitter whose people ignored the obvious
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:21 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Not really.

Just another Savile, Rolph Harris and Glitter whose people ignored the obvious
No...mang.

The Neverland Ranch with Ultimate Kiddie Park and Hideaway bedrooms coupled with the Peter-Pan Plastic Surgery are Waaaaaaaay beyond Obvious!

Reality Distortion Field.
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:27 PM   #62
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Quote:
Sleeping with little boys who aren't related to h doesn't pass boundaries
Adults allowing children to sleep with them has been happening since we all lived in caves. It is a little odd, when the child isn't related, but I've been in enough foster homes to know it happens -and sometimes the children are preteens.

I can imagine that ranch was a wild place for a kid to be. Wild like a circus -the same parade of adventure and wonderment and luxury that is breathtaking during the day can become the source of anxiety and stress at night.

In a house that huge, I can imagine a small child thinking anything might be living there, hiding in the closets or camping in the basements. I'm not at all surprised if more than one decided to go find an adult -MJ or anyone else- to sleep with.

We all like to pretend that because our own children sleep in our own homes and only crawl into bed with us, that anything outside those norms is weird and evil, but in fact, it happens all the time. It just doesn't usually make the damn news.
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:30 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You mean the alleged 200 million in payouts
Quit just saying that. Offer the evidence/articles you're sourcing it from. So far, you're zero for one. The Herald article is a re-hashing of a tabloid piece from Radar Online who are one of a family of scurrilous publications owned by American Media.

The "evidence" is the evidence shown at the trial. The "source" is the team of the D.A. and his prosecutor, who have made a cottage industry of smearing Jackson after they got their asses handed to them in court.

Please stop repeating gossip. Several of us are familiar with the case[s] and would be happy to address specific points.
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Old 24th June 2016, 09:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Adults allowing children to sleep with them has been happening since we all lived in caves. It is a little odd, when the child isn't related, but I've been in enough foster homes to know it happens -and sometimes the children are preteens.

I can imagine that ranch was a wild place for a kid to be. Wild like a circus -the same parade of adventure and wonderment and luxury that is breathtaking during the day can become the source of anxiety and stress at night.

In a house that huge, I can imagine a small child thinking anything might be living there, hiding in the closets or camping in the basements. I'm not at all surprised if more than one decided to go find an adult -MJ or anyone else- to sleep with.

We all like to pretend that because our own children sleep in our own homes and only crawl into bed with us, that anything outside those norms is weird and evil, but in fact, it happens all the time. It just doesn't usually make the damn news.
Yeah...but with MJ? I mean, once a kid hopped into bed with him, then it was "Sausage Time"!

Like a game, I bet the Kid even got a card that read:

"GO TO SAUSAGE TOWN: Go directly to SAUSAGE TOWN. Do not pass Kiddieland. Do not collect A TOY." (sort of like the Game "Monopoly" that way)

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Old 24th June 2016, 10:54 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Adults allowing children to sleep with them has been happening since we all lived in caves. It is a little odd, when the child isn't related, but I've been in enough foster homes to know it happens -and sometimes the children are preteens.

I can imagine that ranch was a wild place for a kid to be. Wild like a circus -the same parade of adventure and wonderment and luxury that is breathtaking during the day can become the source of anxiety and stress at night.

In a house that huge, I can imagine a small child thinking anything might be living there, hiding in the closets or camping in the basements. I'm not at all surprised if more than one decided to go find an adult -MJ or anyone else- to sleep with.

We all like to pretend that because our own children sleep in our own homes and only crawl into bed with us, that anything outside those norms is weird and evil, but in fact, it happens all the time. It just doesn't usually make the damn news.
With strangers?
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 10:58 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
With strangers?

He was an internationally known superstar.
They were living in his house.
He was a father.
He had a huge family of his own.

I'm sure he didn't seem like a stranger to the kids involved. Far less so than many foster parents.
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:02 PM   #67
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Awesome. Dude sleeps with little boys. Has pictures of pre-pubescent boys as art and spends millions paying off acusations of molestation.

But it is all just a misunderstanding
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:18 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I'm sure he didn't seem like a stranger to the kids involved. Far less so than many foster parents.
Jerry Sandusky is typically described in identical terms.
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:21 PM   #69
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Quote:
Has pictures of pre-pubescent boys as art
Which is not illegal.

Have you ever even bothered to find out what, exactly, those books were?
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:24 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Which is not illegal.

Have you ever even bothered to find out what, exactly, those books were?
Have you ever justified the pay outs?
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:40 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Awesome. Dude sleeps with little boys. Has pictures of pre-pubescent boys as art and spends millions paying off acusations of molestation.

But it is all just a misunderstanding
CT forums are that way--->.

Cry me a river in the *********** Crimea! The evidence is where... exactly?
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:47 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Have you ever justified the pay outs?
If I were facing prison, I'd be willing to pay out, too. Whether I was guilty or not. I mostly have faith in our justice system, but not enough to put my future on the line if money will make the problem go away.

I do believe that as wealthy as he was, he could've done far worse than what he was accused of -and gotten away with it without any consequences at all- just by surrounding himself with people who were like minded, and by going outside the USA. But he did neither.

I see the payouts as being "Yes; I'm rich. Yes, you're a pain in my ass. Yes; no good deed (such as letting you live in my home, and eat my food) goes unpunished. Yes; I will pay you to go far, far, far away now."

Not as an admission of guilt or a way to cleanse a conscious.

If he had child pornography in his closet, he would've been charged for it. That would not have required a parade of testimony from people who were plagued with their own credibility problems.

"We raided. We found this. Case closed."

Instead, the whole thing turned into a shark feeding frenzy that made a lot of people very famous and very wealthy, all at the expense of a very naïve and eccentric entertainer who had spent his entire life insulated by wealth from ever having to consider how his actions could be perceived by those who wanted to hang him just so they could catch the loose change from his pockets.
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Last edited by DragonLady; 24th June 2016 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:52 PM   #73
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He had some of the best group of lawyers in the world yet paid millions in hush money.

You do the math
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Old 24th June 2016, 11:53 PM   #74
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It's easy for me to believe MJ was a pedo. Because he was weird in the way I'd prefer pedos be to make them easier to spot. Plus, I like the idea that someone rich and famous would have a fatal hidden flaw capable of knocking them off the pedestal.

None of these psychological biases require much in the way of evidence. I didn't know the dude, he's just a cardboard cut-out celebrity to me. It's not like the character traits I'm imputing are any less accurate than some other PR mish-mash observed from afar. "He's creepy" fills the bill as well as anything else.
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Old 25th June 2016, 12:37 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
He had some of the best group of lawyers in the world yet paid millions in hush money.

You do the math
Paying off nuisance law suits is actually a very common practice as defending them in court can often cost more than a pay off does. It is no more an admission of guilt than pleading the 5th.
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Old 25th June 2016, 12:39 AM   #76
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Quote:
"He's creepy" fills the bill as well as anything else.
I think a lot of the perceived creepiness came from all the surgeries and health problems after he was burned.

The media was constantly showing images of his appearance and evidence of the multiple surgeries, speculating about his skin tone and making light of him wearing a mask when he was out in public -all while seemingly forgetting the man was badly injured.

Of course, it's easy to completely forget his charity work, too.
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Old 25th June 2016, 12:39 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Paying off nuisance law suits is actually a very common practice as defending them in court can often cost more than a pay off does. It is no more an admission of guilt than pleading the 5th.
So he had no sense of justice
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Old 25th June 2016, 12:49 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So he had no sense of justice
Who paid the insurance settlement?
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Old 25th June 2016, 12:50 AM   #79
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Who ever felt guilty
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 25th June 2016, 12:59 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
So he had no sense of justice
Civil cases aren't about Justice, and as noted previously, which you took no notice of, he didn't settle, and didn't want to settle, his insurance company did.
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