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Tags Venezuela incidents , Venezuela issues , Venezuela politics

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Old 3rd February 2019, 10:25 AM   #521
Mycroft
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Hilarious: AFP tweets about "thousands" "pouring into the streets of Caracas" yesterday for the Chicago boy, attaches video of a couple of hundred standing around bored. Meanwhile, "thousands" is an understatement for anti US-meddling protests a few kilometers away.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...o-resign-video

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-47101291

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-la...-rival-rallies
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Old 3rd February 2019, 11:30 AM   #522
Wayward son
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
So it was that easy to destroy your claim that for 20 years no outside observers were let into the country.
First of all it was not my claim. It was the claim made by the UN person YOU were promoting from the article YOU posted. Second of all, the Carter Centre are not UN observers. But don't let interfere with your ideological blinders.
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Old 3rd February 2019, 03:42 PM   #523
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This is not something Mr. Alfred De Zayas just says, this is something UN has proofs then the US or international justice should judge Obama and Trump for crime against humanity in Venezuela and also many other crimes as well.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:13 AM   #524
Wayward son
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is not something Mr. Alfred De Zayas just says, this is something UN has proofs
No, as de Zayas has said, the UN has ignored his report (as any thinking person).

Quote:
then the US or international justice should judge Obama and Trump for crime against humanity in Venezuela and also many other crimes as well.
When people/organizations/leaders/supporters refuse to accept responsibility for their own screw ups/incompetence/corruption and instead blame it on others (in case the US). It should be an extremely strong warning to thinking people to never support, trust or vote for those people, or their supporters/defenders ever again.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:31 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
No, as de Zayas has said, the UN has ignored his report (as any thinking person).
As Maduro said: Trump is the emperor of the world, that's why they can't bring Trump and Obama in court for their crimes.



Quote:
When people/organizations/leaders/supporters refuse to accept responsibility for their own screw ups/incompetence/corruption and instead blame it on others (in case the US). It should be an extremely strong warning to thinking people to never support, trust or vote for those people, or their supporters/defenders ever again.
US embargo starved the venezuelians, US banks stole their money, that's the problem in Venezuela, not the socialist government.
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Old 4th February 2019, 12:54 PM   #526
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Why can't Venezuela get food and basics from places that do not recognize the Trump embargo?

A lot of nations are on that list.
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Old 4th February 2019, 06:53 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
US embargo starved the venezuelians,
There are only three countries in the world under a US embargo (Cuban, Syria, and Iran), and Venezuela isn't one of them. It is perfectly legal to export food from the United States to Venezuela, and we do export food to Venezuela..

And "Venezuelians" isn't a real word. The term for people from Venezuela is Venezuelans. No "i".

Quote:
US banks stole their money, that's the problem in Venezuela, not the socialist government.
US banks don't have Venezuela's money (which is worthless anyways), so they have never been in a position to steal anything. Venezuela's problem is that it needs to import goods from other countries, but cannot afford to do so because their own incompetence has destroyed their ability to produce enough goods for export. That is entirely self-inflicted.
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Last edited by Ziggurat; 4th February 2019 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 4th February 2019, 08:32 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are only three countries in the world under a US embargo (Cuban, Syria, and Iran), and Venezuela isn't one of them. It is perfectly legal to export food from the United States to Venezuela, and we do export food to Venezuela..

And "Venezuelians" isn't a real word. The term for people from Venezuela is Venezuelans. No "i".



US banks don't have Venezuela's money (which is worthless anyways), so they have never been in a position to steal anything. Venezuela's problem is that it needs to import goods from other countries, but cannot afford to do so because their own incompetence has destroyed their ability to produce enough goods for export. That is entirely self-inflicted.
That is something Mr. Zayas answered, how US ruins the Venezuela but Americans had his report thrown in the garbage.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:15 PM   #529
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This is creasy the number of right wing countries who want to replace the socialist government of Venezuela. The Lima group reduce to right wing dictators, some European countries, US, is that the ressources of Venezuela have nothing to do with it? They all look like a dozen of dogs around a piece of steak.
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Old 4th February 2019, 09:44 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
snipped..
I have to join the choir. Excellent post.
I think there is also this bizarre notion that we magically benefit from their suffering and demise when just the opposite is true: If they had a functioning economy and democracy, we would be better off too.
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Old 4th February 2019, 10:39 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is creasy the number of right wing countries who want to replace the socialist government of Venezuela. The Lima group reduce to right wing dictators, some European countries, US, is that the ressources of Venezuela have nothing to do with it? They all look like a dozen of dogs around a piece of steak.
Consider this. It isn't a particularly tasty steak anymore and those nations have come to understand Nikolas Maduro is not going to turn it around.

The main more time passes the worse it will get and thus cost more to re-establish Venezuela as a self sufficient nation. Capable of producing goods and maintaining services for its people.

Capable of international trade with a monetary unit that carries value to others.

It's not all about capitalism vs socialism. It is about making it possible for a recovery for the nation without one man's ego making all others suffer.

When most of the educated class of your nation have left to other places it means any recovery of industry or educational systems is that much harder. The longer the decline the more foreign help will be required to restore levels.

My bet is you do not want much outside help.
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Old 5th February 2019, 02:44 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Why can't Venezuela get food and basics from places that do not recognize the Trump embargo?

In principle, Venezuela can get food etc. from other countries, but ...

Quote:
"The oil that Venezuela currently exports to the US will be diverted to other countries and sold at lower prices. For countries like China and India, the news was akin to Black Monday. They will be able to pick up these oil volumes at great discounts," writes Venezuelan-born analyst Paola Rodriguez-Masiu, from Rystad Energy.
She adds that the impact of sanctions will be substantially lower than the ones predicted by Washington.
Venezuela exports to the US about 450,000 barrels of oil per day, a little under half of its total output. This is the amount of new oil that will flood the markets. Venezuela's market share in the US will be up for grabs, favouring Saudi, Mexican and Iraqi oil companies.
Mrs Rodriguez-Masiu says that so far, oil markets have largely shrugged off this new oversupply as investors have been pricing in Venezuela's crisis for a long time.
Venezuela crisis: Why US sanctions will hurt (BBC News, Feb. 2, 2018)

It won't suddenly increase the price of oil, which is probably the only thing that could improve the situation for Venezuelans. On the contrary, it seems.
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Old 5th February 2019, 02:51 AM   #533
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It is going to be very had for Venezuela to climb out of this hole.

Their institutions are destroyed, the criminal class has expanded and organised, their infrastructure is crumbling, many competent people have established new lives abroad.
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:19 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
It is tribalism at its worst. I was on the far left for many years, starting in high school when I read Chomsky and Zinn etc.

This is the beginning that I always enjoy when woos begin their stories: I used to be a very skeptical person, but then ...

Quote:
In the run up to the second Iraq war (several years after high school) I was shocked at the positions of the far lefties I knew. I mean, I opposed the war, but I still felt that Saddam was one of the most evil bastards to ever breath and the world would be better off if he could just choke to death on his steak, but the friends I talked to - they didn't just oppose the war, they seemed to now 100% support Saddam. I talked to a friend who had long advocated for the Kurds and their fight for independence. Talked to him about how from their perspective it might make sense to support the over-throw of Saddam, and how that troubled me concerning my anti-war position. He responded by talking about how the Kurds were vicious people. A complete 180 on his long-held views of the Kurds because hating the US was essentially all the really mattered.

Interesting personal anecdote, so let me give you mine:
At the time, I don't remember a single left-wing person saying that Saddam was a good guy. I'm not denying that there may have been some. I just never met them. And I also never heard anyone suddenly beginning to condemn the Kurds. However, I do remember that the Kurds, who used to be viewed as communist troublemakers, were suddenly viewed as the good guys in conservative media because hating Saddam was essentially all that really mattered.
But for some reason, you don't seem to remember that ...

Quote:
I continued to oppose the war, but would have nothing to do with the anti-war movement. Shortly thereafter I left the left and consider myself to ideologically homeless, and felt a little disorientated until Nick Cohen's book "What's Left?" put into words the way I felt and the experiences I had with the left.

At the time, I didn't find it difficult at all to find people who were against both the war of the Coalition of the Willing (Wikipedia) and Saddam Hussein. But I guess that your personal anecdote trumps that ...

Quote:
When anything like this goes on in the world I check out one of my favourite far-left message boards. It is always exactly what I expect.

Weird coincidence. I tend to do the same thing, but with the mainstream media, and it's also always exactly what I expect.

Quote:
Russian interference in the American election? No way. These people would defend Putin even if Putin was strangling them to death. During their last seconds of life they would still maintain that this is America's fault somehow and lovingly gaze into Putin's eyes as he robbed them of their last breath. That Putin is far-right thug who is opposed to everything these people claim to represent should make them among his most vocal opponents, but Putin hates America so......

So far, the left-wing media I've seen don't defend Putin, but I don't doubt that RT, for instance, does. However, I've seen some left-wingers criticize the hypocrisy of the outrage over Russian interference in US elections. The USA isn't usually known for being timid about interference in the elections abroad ...

Quote:
Most of the far left continuing to idealize and support Chavez as he led his country away from democracy, human rights, and into a financial calamity that is robbing the poor of their future is pretty sickening.

Most of the media continuing to neglect the actual cause of the tragedy in Venezuela is pretty sickening. Even more so is pretending that Maduro is responsible for "robbing the poor of their future." Even more sickening is the pretense that the future of the poor Venezuelans is actually what concerns those who want to remove him from power.

Quote:
Continuing to support Maduro should be seen as absurd, but they simply blame everything on the US.

That would be a mistake, but it's pretty obvious that the USA does all it can to worsen the conditions of ordinary Venezuelans right now in the hope that this will help to bring down Maduro. Concerns for the future of poor Venezuelans? No, not really. (And the appropriate thing to do, as always, is to simply blame everything on Maduro, right? That is the nuanced way to look at things and make sure that it isn't all "black and white.")

Quote:
And it wouldn't matter if the US was not involved at all because they would just make up the connections through their weird conspiracy chains and come to the obvious conclusion that it is all the fault of the US.

A brilliant hypothesis: How would Socialists react if the USA was not involved at all? When did that ever happen? And no, it's not "all the fault of the US." The price of oil is at the centre of the current situation. However, the USA is doing its utmost to worsen the effects of the falling price of oil on the Venezuelan economy, isn't it? But of course, that is just an attempt to help poor Venezuelans, isn't it?

Quote:
Not mostly. Completely. Nothing bad that ever happens is the fault of the people/parties/regimes they support. That seems a little insulting to those people/parties/regimes who they support, as they rob them of the human agency, and I would call it childish, fantasy thinking, but I teach high school students and it is very rare to see any of them ever espouse such black and white views of the world. That is learned stupidity, generally occurring post high school.

I can think of at least one of their teachers from whom they can learn "such black and white views of the world." Not mostly. Completely.

Quote:
Take the article posted by Childlike Empress "The Making of Juan Guaido" It is just vomitus BS conspiracy crackpottery that would only be believed by someone who has so severely siloed themself in ideological group think that their brain is broken. But they believe it unquestioningly (I have seen it posted and almost universally praised on countless far left sites) - because it espouses the most important thing - it blames everything on the US.

"almost universally praised on countless far left sites." Really? Almost universally?!I haven't noticed that, but it's possible that some do. (And I haven't yet read "The Making of Juan Guaido," so I won't comment on it.)

Quote:
And I mean everything. Guaido has been an CIA asset for like 14 years or something...because of course he has. Step one - read that Guaido spent a bit of time George Washington University more than a decade ago. Find someone connected to that University who is bad. Oh! The neoliberal economist Berrizbeitia. Bingo. That is who Guaido was there to study under. Evidence provided to support the claim? Zero. But no one reading gives a **** about that and now that "connection" can be used to tie more and more conspiracies together. It is shameful, but it is standard practice.

Those left-wing conspiracy nuts tying more and more conspiracies together. It's shameful, I tell you. Shameful!
(I don't know anything about the alleged conspiracy theory of Guaido being a CIA agent, but I can see why many left-wing groups wouldn't consider the idea far-fetched, and it would be based on more than the ongoing CIA cricket scare in Havana! There's a proud tradition behind it: Operaton Condor (Wikipedia).)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th February 2019, 05:27 AM   #535
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ON VENEZUELA: Homeland before the abyss: two sides of the same coin.

A friend of mine translated this article by Rafael Ramírez Carreño. It gives a fresh perspective about what's going on in Venezuela, one which we're not hearing in the mainstream media, yet isn't the leftist acceptance of Maduro's politics just because the USA is (purportedly) against him (actually he's serving their agenda)

ON VENEZUELA: Homeland before the abyss: two sides of the same coin. By Rafael Ramírez Carreño
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:17 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting personal anecdote, so let me give you mine:
At the time, I don't remember a single left-wing person saying that Saddam was a good guy. I'm not denying that there may have been some. I just never met them.
Well, there's always George Galloway...
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:17 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
That is something Mr. Zayas answered, how US ruins the Venezuela but Americans had his report thrown in the garbage.
I wasn't addressing Zayas' arguments, whatever they are. I was addressing what you said. And what you said was plainly wrong. Appealing to someone else's claims doesn't suffice to support your own.
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:33 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There are only three countries in the world under a US embargo (Cuban, Syria, and Iran), and Venezuela isn't one of them. It is perfectly legal to export food from the United States to Venezuela, and we do export food to Venezuela..

And "Venezuelians" isn't a real word. The term for people from Venezuela is Venezuelans. No "i".
Lovely example of Muphry's law
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:40 AM   #539
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Lovely example of Muphry's law
That's a fair cop.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:25 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I wasn't addressing Zayas' arguments, whatever they are. I was addressing what you said. And what you said was plainly wrong. Appealing to someone else's claims doesn't suffice to support your own.
What i say is not wrong, it is backed up by an expert:

Former UN Expert: US Sanctions in Venezuela Largely Responsible for Crisis, Possible “Crime Against Humanity”


“What’s at stake is the enormous, enormous natural resources of Venezuela. And I sense that if Venezuela had no natural resources no one would give a damn about Chavez or Maduro or anybody else there.” — Former UN official Alfred de Zayas

by Whitney Webb

https://www.mintpressnews.com/former...manity/254334/
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:31 AM   #541
Wayward son
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting personal anecdote, so let me give you mine:
At the time, I don't remember a single left-wing person saying that Saddam was a good guy. I'm not denying that there may have been some. I just never met them. And I also never heard anyone suddenly beginning to condemn the Kurds. However, I do remember that the Kurds, who used to be viewed as communist troublemakers, were suddenly viewed as the good guys in conservative media because hating Saddam was essentially all that really mattered.
But for some reason, you don't seem to remember that …
Thanks. Here is the thing - I was responding to a quote about a specific group of people:

"I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes. "

So I wasn't talking about all groups of people and felt no need to do so (and indeed no one does - and doing so would make message boards completely incoherent, but that is what you think I should have done because this is about ideology for you). So, no, it is not that I don't remember the Kurds becoming good guys within some conservative media. I would have talked about it if it the subject being discussed but it was not. I remember what all sides did, because I am not completely biased - unlike you who only remembers or notices what the other side does.

Quote:
At the time, I didn't find it difficult at all to find people who were against both the war of the Coalition of the Willing (Wikipedia) and Saddam Hussein. But I guess that your personal anecdote trumps that ...
Again, not the people I was talking about, so I don't know why I would have to talk about people who do not fit this description that I was responding to: "I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes."

Quote:
Most of the media continuing to neglect the actual cause of the tragedy in Venezuela is pretty sickening.
And what is the actual cause? It's almost all the USA right?

Quote:
A brilliant hypothesis: How would Socialists react if the USA was not involved at all? When did that ever happen?
We know how socialists will react. They scream for the non-involvement of the USA, and then scream that real problem is the that the US has stopped buying almost all of Venezuela's stuff. It's an outrage that the country who both Chavez and Maduro have blamed for every problem only propped up the economy by being by far the largest importer of Venezuela's exports until last week (although in reality they are still propping up the country's economy - they are just trying to funnel it away from the corruption of Maduro in the future). Venezuela's besties like Russia, China and Iran are free to buy Venezuela's oil at the price the US would have, but they won't.

I wouldn't continue to buy my goods at a store that violates all of my values. I especially wouldn't be spending my money there if they called me evil and blamed all their problems on me. Wouldn't ever support them again if they did that one time, but Venezuela has been doing that to the US since the start of the Chavez regime.

And many people on the left feel that the US should stop trading with right-wing authoritarian regimes (I agree), but howl in outrage if the US stops propping up a Left-wing authoritarian regime. I personally think that the democratic countries should distance themselves from all authoritarian regimes - regimes who they have been helping strengthen, and whose leaders they have helped enrich, through trade. If the US and other democratic countries had done that from the start with Chavez the regime would have fallen apart quickly. Instead through trading they helped prop up and mask the pure incompetence and corruption of one of the world's most authoritarian and repressive regimes and allowed that regime to destroy institutions and rob the country's future.

Quote:
And no, it's not "all the fault of the US." The price of oil is at the centre of the current situation. However, the USA is doing its utmost to worsen the effects of the falling price of oil on the Venezuelan economy, isn't it? But of course, that is just an attempt to help poor Venezuelans, isn't it?
Every country that exports oil had to deal with the drop in oil prices. None of them were affected in any way like Venezuela because it was run far more incompetently and corruptly than the others. Venezuela's political policies led to the country producing less and less of its own food and destroyed most other industries. It became more and more dependant on oil, but also ran that industry extremely poorly. For over a decade it refused to tackle growing problems like inflation, shortages, government inefficiency, the dwindling diversity in the economy, the oil industry's lack of upkeep etc. A crisis was staved off by unprecedented high oil prices, but even if somehow those prices had stayed unsustainably high the country was still going to hit the wall. It happened sooner and more dramatically because oil prices fell.

But this is all on Chavez and Maduro. They ran completely incompetent and corrupt administrations from the start.

Quote:
Those left-wing conspiracy nuts tying more and more conspiracies together. It's shameful, I tell you. Shameful!
Again, so what? I haven't denied that the far right is full of conspiracy kooks. Unlike you, I am opposed to conspiracy kooks on all sides.

Again, I was responding to this problem:

"I guess for some people authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes are fine as long as they are left wing authoritarian, repressive, and incompetent regimes. "

That problem is real. You continue to defend one of worst authoritarian, repressive and incompetent regimes in the world because of your ideology. My union does as well which is thoroughly embarrassing. I oppose every authoritarian, repressive and/or incompetent regime. So Maduro's regime is near the top of my list. And so was Chavez's regime even when much of left was praising it as a model state. And that goes for the left as well as the right. I was one of the first people on this board to take trump's campaign seriously. I warned while most people opposing him laughed. And my wife and I left the United States within weeks of his election. We had only lived in the US for a couple years, and we were enjoying it but we had the option of not living in a country in which we felt the new administration would be authoritarian, repressive, incompetent and corrupt. But as bad as it is - and I think it is outrageously bad - it is probably not even 1% of the level of corruption, incompetence, repressiveness, and authoritarianism that has occurred under the Chavez and Maduro governments. And yet, far too many people on the left choose to deny, minimize, shift blame etc. That is disgraceful. That includes you.

Last edited by Wayward son; 5th February 2019 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:43 AM   #542
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This should be moved to the active thread on Venezuela.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:13 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What i say is not wrong, it is backed up by an expert:

Former UN Expert: US Sanctions in Venezuela Largely Responsible for Crisis, Possible “Crime Against Humanity”
Sanctions and embargoes are not the same thing at all. And argument from authority is a fallacy.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:26 AM   #544
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Maybe there's a reason why he is a former expert.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:34 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sanctions and embargoes are not the same thing at all. And argument from authority is a fallacy.
Depends if the authority is one in the relevant field or with relevant experience.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:35 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Maybe there's a reason why he is a former expert.
I am not surprise that an employee of UN blaming US loses his job, that fellow must be courageous.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:42 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I am not surprise that an employee of UN blaming US loses his job, that fellow must be courageous.
Plenty of people with jobs have blamed the US for a number of things.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:18 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I am not surprise that an employee of UN blaming US loses his job, that fellow must be courageous.
Oh please. Criticizing the US is one of the safest activities in the world.
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Old 5th February 2019, 01:56 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Plenty of people with jobs have blamed the US for a number of things.
With nothing happening to them...............
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:10 PM   #550
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Here's a really good video documentary on the opposition:
https://youtu.be/ig6yFP8HjVQ?t=1185
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Old 5th February 2019, 06:20 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Here's a really good video documentary on the opposition:
https://youtu.be/ig6yFP8HjVQ?t=1185
You believe Abby Martin is credible?
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:01 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
You believe Abby Martin is credible?
Absolutely.
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:17 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"almost universally praised on countless far left sites." Really? Almost universally?!I haven't noticed that, but it's possible that some do. (And I haven't yet read "The Making of Juan Guaido," so I won't comment on it.)
You should read it. It's really good. I'm very familiar with one of the journalists who wrote it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Blumenthal
Quote:
Max Blumenthal (born December 18, 1977) is an American author, journalist, and blogger. He is a senior writer for Alternet and a Fellow at the Nation Institute.[1] He was formerly a writer for The Daily Beast, Al Akhbar, and Media Matters for America.[2]
Quote:
Blumenthal's articles and video documentaries have appeared in The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, The Daily Beast, The Nation, The Guardian, The Huffington Post, Independent Film Channel, Salon, The Real News, Al Jazeera English,[18] and the Columbia Journalism Review.[19]
Here's the article in question.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-ma...leader/254387/

Quote:
While Guaidó is today sold as the face of democratic restoration, he spent his career in the most violent faction of Venezuela’s most radical opposition party, positioning himself at the forefront of one destabilization campaign after another. His party has been widely discredited inside Venezuela, and is held partly responsible for fragmenting a badly weakened opposition.

“‘These radical leaders have no more than 20 percent in opinion polls,” wrote Luis Vicente León, Venezuela’s leading pollster.
Quote:
The students had arrived from Venezuela courtesy of the Center for Applied Non-Violent Action and Strategies, or CANVAS. This group is funded largely through the National Endowment for Democracy, a CIA cut-out that functions as the US government’s main arm of promoting regime change; and offshoots like the International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs. According to leaked internal emails from Stratfor, an intelligence firm known as the “shadow CIA,” “[CANVAS] may have also received CIA funding and training during the 1999/2000 anti-Milosevic struggle.”

Quote:
Stratfor revealed that CANVAS “turned its attention to Venezuela” in 2005 after training opposition movements that led pro-NATO regime change operations across Eastern Europe.

While monitoring the CANVAS training program, Stratfor outlined its insurrectionist agenda in strikingly blunt language: “Success is by no means guaranteed, and student movements are only at the beginning of what could be a years-long effort to trigger a revolution in Venezuela, but the trainers themselves are the people who cut their teeth on the ‘Butcher of the Balkans.’ They’ve got mad skills. When you see students at five Venezuelan universities hold simultaneous demonstrations, you will know that the training is over and the real work has begun.”
Quote:
The “real work” began two years later, in 2007, when Guaidó graduated from Andrés Bello Catholic University of Caracas. He moved to Washington DC to enroll in the Governance and Political Management Program at George Washington University under the tutelage of Venezuelan economist Luis Enrique Berrizbeitia, one of the top Latin American neoliberal economists. Berrizbeitia is a former executive director of the International Monetary Fund who spent more than a decade working in Venezuelan energy sector under the oligarchic old regime that was ousted by Chavez.
Quote:
The Stratfor and CANVAS trainers of this cell identified Guaidó’s ally – a street organizer named Yon Goicoechea – as a “key factor” in defeating the constitutional referendum. The following year, Goicochea was rewarded for his efforts with the Cato Institute’s Milton Friedman Prize for Advancing Liberty, along with a $500,000 prize, which he promptly invested into building his own Liberty First (Primero Justicia) political network.
Quote:
That year, Guaidó exposed himself to the public in another way, founding a political party to capture the anti-Chavez energy his Generation 2007 had cultivated. Called Popular Will, it was led by Leopoldo López, a Princeton-educated right-wing firebrand heavily involved in National Endowment for Democracy programs and elected as the mayor of a district in Caracas that was one of the wealthiest in the country.
Quote:
By 2010, Popular Will and its foreign backers moved to exploit the worst drought to hit Venezuela in decades. Massive electricity shortages had struck the country due the dearth of water, which was needed to power hydroelectric plants. A global economic recession and declining oil prices compounded the crisis, driving public discontentment.

Stratfor and CANVAS – key advisors of Guaidó and his anti-government cadre – devised a shockingly cynical plan to drive a dagger through the heart of the Bolivarian revolution. The scheme hinged on a 70% collapse of the country’s electrical system by as early as April 2010.


“This could be the watershed event, as there is little that Chavez can do to protect the poor from the failure of that system,” the Stratfor internal memo declared. “This would likely have the impact of galvanizing public unrest in a way that no opposition group could ever hope to generate. At that point in time, an opposition group would be best served to take advantage of the situation and spin it against Chavez and towards their needs.”

By this point, the Venezuelan opposition was receiving a staggering $40-50 million a year from US government organizations like USAID and the National Endowment for Democracy, according to a report by the Spanish think tank, the FRIDE Institute. It also had massive wealth to draw on from its own accounts, which were mostly outside the country.
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Old 5th February 2019, 07:27 PM   #554
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Here's a debate between Blumenthal and someone who supports regime change:

Quote:
To discuss, tonight's panel includes, Max Blumenthal, a bestselling author, journalist and the founder and editor of grayzoneproject.com; Maria Elvira Salazar, an award-winning journalist; Francisco Marquez, a Venezuelan lawyer and activist, imprisoned by the Maduro government and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wakR...ature=youtu.be
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:19 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Absolutely.
Despite her 9/11 trutherism and pro-Marxist bias?

To me, those things put her credibility in serious doubt.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:59 PM   #556
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Despite her 9/11 trutherism and pro-Marxist bias?

To me, those things put her credibility in serious doubt.
She hasn't been a truther for quite a while now, and at one point, about 40% of Democrats were truthers of some sort.

I'm a Marxist. Marx was basically just an economist, and a good one. Most of what he did was just describe how money and capital actually works from the perspective of the worker.

Martin's not among my favorite journalists, but she wouldn't just make stuff up. She values her "journalistic integrity" a lot.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:03 PM   #557
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They were all looking like a gang of nazis applauding Hitler.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:28 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm a Marxist. Marx was basically just an economist, and a good one. Most of what he did was just describe how money and capital actually works from the perspective of the worker.

Did you ever read Capital, Vol. 2 (Wikipedia)?

Quote:
In this book, the main ideas behind the marketplace are to be found: how value and surplus-value are realized. Its dramatis personae, not so much the worker and the industrialist (as in Volume I), but rather the money owner (and money lender), the wholesale merchant, the trader and the entrepreneur or 'functioning capitalist.'

This one was Engels: The Condition of the Working Class in England (Wikipedia)
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Old 6th February 2019, 10:17 AM   #559
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Another good read: MediaLens' Venezuela Blitz – Part 1: Tyrants Don’t Have Free Elections
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Old 6th February 2019, 12:29 PM   #560
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
She hasn't been a truther for quite a while now, and at one point, about 40% of Democrats were truthers of some sort.
She's never repudiated those views. These days her POV is a bland, "We were lied to about 9/11" which seems designed to keep her cred with the truthers while not tying her down to any specific position to defend.

I don't recall that 40% of Democrats were ever truthers. Please give your evidence for that.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I'm a Marxist. Marx was basically just an economist, and a good one. Most of what he did was just describe how money and capital actually works from the perspective of the worker.
Well, regardless of your opinion of Marx and his ideas, it's also true that Marxist reporters tend to be of that particular bias that sees everything done by the United States and her NATO allies as some nefarious plot to rob poorer nations of their resources while simultaneously needing to struggle to find any criticism at all of Russia, China, Cuba or any number of socialist nations.

Reviewing Abby Martin's work demonstrates she shares that bias. For example, her show "The Empire Files" has a lot to criticize about the US and allies, but nothing at all about other super-powers that could also be called empires.

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Martin's not among my favorite journalists, but she wouldn't just make stuff up. She values her "journalistic integrity" a lot.
She doesn't need to makes things up. She just needs to use that particular filter that excludes any wrong-doing of Maduro, while also seeing any connection to the US as proof of CIA involvement.

Religious people are believers, and Marxism is a religion.
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