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Tags Andrew McCabe , donald trump , George Papadopoulos , Michael Cohen , Mueller investigation , Paul Manafort , Robert Mueller , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections

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Old 23rd February 2019, 09:22 AM   #441
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Schiff's letter stands on its own. He makes no predictions about the Mueller report, either explicitly or implicitly.

Indeed, here is the most relevant excerpt I can find.



I don't see how you get from that to "Mueller got nothing" (not a quote). Schiff says he is willing to wait and see. So am I. It may be devastating to the President. It may say that there's no evidence the President knew about Russian interference or even may be exculpatory evidence. We'll see.

You sure are gonna look foolish (and not for the first time) if the report is damning. But, of course, you'll deny any damning bits as Deep State trickery and add a heavy bit of diversion to the sins of Clinton and Obama, I'm willing to wager. That's one thing I feel confident in forecasting.
Oh hell, Schiff’s is already gearing up to start an investigation in anticipation of the Mueller report being a failure. The senate investigation was done and found no evidence of collusion.

Mueller has thus far shown jack diddly squat about Russian collusion.

And if my writing that it looks like it is going to be a nothingburger triggers you, well as we say in the South, bless your heart.

Good luck with the investigation!
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Old 23rd February 2019, 09:28 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, you are saying that I should not have read Schiff’s nonsense?

We agree!
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, you think he just totally ignored the fact I referred to Schiff’s idiotic editorial? K.
So, the Rule of So is ‘k now?
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Old 23rd February 2019, 09:31 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Regnad Kcin View Post
So, the Rule of So is ‘k now?
So, you are saying the rule of so is real and a powerful tool to demonstrate logical flaws in arguments?

Hmmm....

Well then, guilty as charged.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 09:39 AM   #444
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Another content-free back-and-forth with TBD.

Another thread close to being ruined.

Sigh.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 09:42 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh hell, Schiff’s is already gearing up to start an investigation in anticipation of the Mueller report being a failure. The senate investigation was done and found no evidence of collusion.

Mueller has thus far shown jack diddly squat about Russian collusion.

And if my writing that it looks like it is going to be a nothingburger triggers you, well as we say in the South, bless your heart.

Good luck with the investigation!
That's nice. Now, tell me: what in Schiff's open letter leads you to conclude that the Mueller report will be underwhelming? You insist that you got this impression from the letter itself. Point out the bits, will you?

Because what Schiff explicitly suggested is that we should all wait and see what's in the report. That doesn't sound like he's expecting nothing much, but rather he's withholding his judgment about the contents. Sounds pretty prudent to me.

The Mueller report really wasn't the point of Schiff's letter at all, for that matter.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 09:51 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Another content-free back-and-forth with TBD.

Another thread close to being ruined.

Sigh.
Huh, cite Schiff’s article, discuss the senate report, discuss the lack of progress thus far, discuss the fact that the House is gearing up to do their own investigation, all in a few short posts.... the echo chamber is ruined!

/Serious question, do you recognize the level of irony in that post? I am fascinated that was the post you felt was needed to make the thread totally better. Just wow.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 09:57 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
That's nice. Now, tell me: what in Schiff's open letter leads you to conclude that the Mueller report will be underwhelming? You insist that you got this impression from the letter itself. Point out the bits, will you?

Because what Schiff explicitly suggested is that we should all wait and see what's in the report. That doesn't sound like he's expecting nothing much, but rather he's withholding his judgment about the contents. Sounds pretty prudent to me.

The Mueller report really wasn't the point of Schiff's letter at all, for that matter.
Stop, I did not "insist that you got this impression from the letter itself." That is ridiculous, why would have said that when Schiff is running off at the mouth constantly about how he is going to start a big investigation on Russian collusion in the House?
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Old 23rd February 2019, 10:25 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Stop, I did not "insist that you got this impression from the letter itself." That is ridiculous, why would have said that when Schiff is running off at the mouth constantly about how he is going to start a big investigation on Russian collusion in the House?
I sure got the impression that your comments were based on Schiff's open letter. Let's see why.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I looked at Schiff's silly little op ed in the WaPo today...

it looks like the Mueller report is really going to be a big nothingburger, huh?
Ah. Here's the first point. Your prediction about the report seems to be based on the letter in this post. No other comments are mentioned. And then there's this response to Varwoche.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
So, you think he just totally ignored the fact I referred to Schiff’s idiotic editorial? K.
Now you claim that the "nothingburger" comment wasn't based on Schiff's letter? Okay, whatever. It was based on other comments by Schiff, none of which you refer to and hence we cannot guess what prompted this prediction.

That's some fine prognosticatin' there, coupled with an unassailable assessment of the evidence. All mighty impressed, I can tell you.

ETA: Just to be clear, preparing to open an investigation in the House on the Trump/Russian issue doesn't indicate that Schiff expects the Mueller report to be a dud. If the Mueller report is a blockbuster, then the House committee will review its contents and evidence. If it's a dud, they may think that Mueller left some stones unturned. That Schiff is planning a House committee investigation (and I'll take your word for this, as I haven't paid close attention) is pretty damned poor evidence of Schiff's expectations regarding the Mueller report.

But, of course, you clearly were claiming that the open letter was evidence of low expectations, regardless of your backtrack here.

Last edited by phiwum; 23rd February 2019 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 10:31 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I sure got the impression that your comments were based on Schiff's open letter. Let's see whyu.
Cool. You were wrong. Bit surprised that you were not aware of the constant bleating of Schiff about his investigation.

Weird.

Oh well, now you know.

Hat tip to TBD
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Old 23rd February 2019, 10:42 AM   #450
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I used to enjoy playing whack-a-mole in the arcade. Not so much here.

the letter, neener neener <whack!>
no not the letter, whatever gave you that idea? neener neener <whack!>

Infantile dishonesty on steroids. Ho-hum, another day in the ISF politics section.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 10:50 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I used to enjoy playing whack-a-mole in the arcade. Not so much here.

the letter, neener neener <whack!>
no not the letter, whatever gave you that idea? neener neener <whack!>

Infantile dishonesty on steroids. Ho-hum, another day in the ISF politics section.
That was infantile dishonesty.

The claim was that I got this from the letter itself, which as we have seen was a lie, because it ignores Schiff’s body of work. Why in Christ’s name would people ignore that. The op ed was just the latest cry in the woods of a failed autocrat.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 10:52 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh hell, Schiff’s is already gearing up to start an investigation in anticipation of the Mueller report being a failure. The senate investigation was done and found no evidence of collusion.

Mueller has thus far shown jack diddly squat about Russian collusion.

And if my writing that it looks like it is going to be a nothingburger triggers you, well as we say in the South, bless your heart.

Good luck with the investigation!
As a self-declared expert in logical fallacies, surely you know that argument from ignorance doesn't work, whether the ignorance is real or feigned. Your politically motivated indifference is as irrelevant as your willful ignorance to those of us who want to know why so many people told so many lies about colluding with Russia. Anyway, what the letter says is that Schiff is "gearing up" to make sure that the Mueller report doesn't get buried, which would imply rather the opposite of what you make of it.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 10:54 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That was infantile dishonesty.

The claim was that I got this from the letter itself, which as we have seen was a lie, because it ignores Schiff’s body of work. Why in Christ’s name would people ignore that. The op ed was just the latest cry in the woods of a failed autocrat.
No the claim was that you implied this: which is what this post does indeed imply:

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I looked at Schiff's silly little op ed in the WaPo today...

it looks like the Mueller report is really going to be a big nothingburger, huh?

An example

I saw Trump's latest Tweet

It looks as though he's going guilty of many electoral crimes.
Tecnically these statements are true. And there is indeed an implied connection between the two but there isn't.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 10:58 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
As a self-declared expert in logical fallacies, surely you know that argument from ignorance doesn't work, whether the ignorance is real or feigned. Your politically motivated indifference is as irrelevant as your willful ignorance to those of us who want to know why so many people told so many lies about colluding with Russia. Anyway, what the letter says is that Schiff is "gearing up" to make sure that the Mueller report doesn't get buried, which would imply rather the opposite of what you make of it.
Then don’t make them. For example when I cite the Senate conclusions and the undeniable fact that Mueller’s “results” thus far have shown no collusion, the response should not ever be to pollute the thread with laughably false accusations of arguments from ignorance.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:04 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
No the claim was that you implied this: which is what this post does indeed imply:


An example

I saw Trump's latest Tweet

It looks as though he's going guilty of many electoral crimes.
Tecnically these statements are true. And there is indeed an implied connection between the two but there isn't.
Sigh...

Senate does investigation, finds no collusion
Schiff is gearing up to do an investigation,
Schiff writes an editorial about the Russia investigation and claims that his republican colleagues totally agree with him in private and should come out and support his investigation, which would be totally unnecessary if Mueller found evidence of collusion, which know he has not yet done

Last edited by The Big Dog; 23rd February 2019 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:20 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I looked at Schiff's silly little op ed in the WaPo today...

it looks like the Mueller report is really going to be a big nothingburger, huh?
"Right? Right??? Right?????"

Stop torturing yourself. Do something else, man.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:20 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I used to enjoy playing whack-a-mole in the arcade. Not so much here.

the letter, neener neener <whack!>
no not the letter, whatever gave you that idea? neener neener <whack!>

Infantile dishonesty on steroids. Ho-hum, another day in the ISF politics section.
Agreed. I don't care to continue a pointless discussion.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:24 AM   #458
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https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/sta...63314453364737

Quote:
JUST IN: Mueller's office did on Friday request to file its sentencing memo under seal in Manafort's case. Judge Amy Berman Jackson has granted that request and ordered Mueller's office to file a redacted version on the public docket.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:25 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Agreed. I don't care to continue a pointless discussion.
Curious how people say things like that after the big dog has absolutely demolished their false claim.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:29 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Agreed. I don't care to continue a pointless discussion.
You could always start a conversation with Bob if you find that you have extra time. That can be equally rewarding.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:31 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You could always start a conversation with Bob if you find that you have extra time. That can be equally rewarding.
cough *irony* cough
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:48 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
cough *irony* cough

cough *you think that means “like iron”, don’t you?* cough
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:51 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
cough *you think that means “like iron”, don’t you?* cough
a bit of purple drank may help.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:56 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Sigh...

Senate does investigation, finds no collusion
Schiff is gearing up to do an investigation,
Schiff writes an editorial about the Russia investigation and claims that his republican colleagues totally agree with him in private and should come out and support his investigation, which would be totally unnecessary if Mueller found evidence of collusion, which know he has not yet done
Do you understand that the DOJ has a different set of goals and purposes for the Mueller investigation - fundamentally, to see if a crime or crimes were committed - than a House committee, which has oversight responsibilities that include properly discovering things that may not be crimes?
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:57 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Then don’t make them. For example when I cite the Senate conclusions and the undeniable fact that Mueller’s “results” thus far have shown no collusion, ...
That's quite deniable, e.g. the secret Trump Tower meeting to get dirt on Hillary in exchange for dropping Magnitsky Act sanctions; the secret Trump Tower Moscow negotiations continuing right up to the election; Manafort giving private polling data to Kilimnik; at least 17 Trump people having over 100 contacts with Russians that they either tried to hide or directly lied about. You've completely lost the plot. Did you know that the proverbial "smoking gun" is an example of circumstantial evidence, not direct evidence?

Quote:
... the response should not ever be to pollute the thread with laughably false accusations of arguments from ignorance.
Maybe an example of a typical argument from ignorance will help: Nobody the Senate committee interviewed confessed, therefore there was no collusion.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 11:57 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
cough *you think that means “like iron”, don’t you?* cough
why, did you get a post that was not nothing but a substance free attack on another poster that was not actively engaged in the discussion, because that is what I got...
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:03 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post

Maybe an example of a typical argument from ignorance will help: Nobody the Senate committee interviewed confessed, therefore there was no collusion.
That is not an argument from ignorance, that is just an ignorant argument, one that was created by The Poet if I recall correctly
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:28 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That is not an argument from ignorance, that is just an ignorant argument, one that was created by The Poet if I recall correctly
Lol, another swing and a miss. You were supposed to say that it's a straw-man argument from ignorance because that's not really what you were trying to say, even though that's exactly what you were trying to imply. And, I see that you don't want to revisit your peculiar argument that Schiff's determination to make sure the Mueller report will be public implies that it must be a "nothingburger." I don't know if there's a proper name for that fallacy, but naming it isn't necessary: it's just an invalid inference, a.k.a. fuzzy thinking.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:32 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
A redacted version of Manafort's sentencing memo will be much more interesting reading than Schiff's open letter.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:37 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
A redacted version of Manafort's sentencing memo will be much more interesting reading than Schiff's open letter.
To start:
Prosecutors say Manafort lied to:
-tax preparers
-bookkeepers
-banks
-Treasury Department
-National Security Division of DOJ
-FBI
-Special Counsel’s Office
-grand jury
-his own legal counsel
-Members of Congress
-executive branch of US government
He loves committing crimes.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:39 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
That's quite deniable, e.g. the secret Trump Tower meeting to get dirt on Hillary in exchange for dropping Magnitsky Act sanctions; the secret Trump Tower Moscow negotiations continuing right up to the election; Manafort giving private polling data to Kilimnik; at least 17 Trump people having over 100 contacts with Russians that they either tried to hide or directly lied about. You've completely lost the plot. Did you know that the proverbial "smoking gun" is an example of circumstantial evidence, not direct evidence?
Look, it's all very simple. All of that is based on the Steele Dossier, which was paid for by Clinton and is thus totally discredited. Ergo ditto omnia sum, as Big Dog lawyers say, and your case collapses.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:44 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Lol, another swing and a miss. You were supposed to say that it's a straw-man argument from ignorance because that's not really what you were trying to say, even though that's exactly what you were trying to imply.
Oof. No, I said that the Poet's argument was ignorant, indeed TBD nuked it from orbit a few days ago. Y'all seem to have fallen into the fallacy fallacy trap.

It is cool, the big dog will talk you through it
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:44 PM   #473
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Is there anyone Manafort's supected of speaking truth to? I vaguely recall (but could be wrong) that at least one of his daughters has described him as having no moral compass whatsoever, so he presumably shared some truths that led her to that conclusion.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:47 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Is there anyone Manafort's supected of speaking truth to? I vaguely recall (but could be wrong) that at least one of his daughters has described him as having no moral compass whatsoever, so he presumably shared some truths that led her to that conclusion.
Yup

https://spectator.us/mom-tested-stds...rts-home-life/

Including the immortal text "Has Mom been tested for STDs?"

ETA:
Quote:
“mom thinks the power went to his head”

“with Ukraine”

“Right…that it has turned him into a moral-less ethic-less person”

“he is just power crazed…controling. obsessive.”

“He has no moral or legal compass”

“You know he has killed people in Ukraine? Knowingly”

“What?! No”

“Don’t fool yourself. That money we have is blood money”
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 23rd February 2019 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:47 PM   #475
Steve
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I looked at Schiff's silly little op ed in the WaPo today...

it looks like the Mueller report is really going to be a big nothingburger, huh?
That really is an infantile expression that detracts from credibility. You, and others, should not use it.

IMO the Mueller report will be substantial and will clarify most aspects of the situations he is investigating. He may report real instances of Trump's involvement with illegal activities pertaining to Russia. He may report that Trump had no such involvement. Either way the report will be very interesting and provide clarity. It will be subject to minute analysis, both professional and amateur ( like here). It will definitely NOT be "nothing".
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Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:48 PM   #476
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
What I love about this list is that Manafort was angry that Gates didn't lie for him. He expected honor among thieves.
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Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:54 PM   #477
Skeptic Ginger
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As the Mueller investigation continues, it's quite disturbing that the perp under investigation continues merrily on in his job.
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That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
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Old 23rd February 2019, 01:03 PM   #478
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
As the Mueller investigation continues, it's quite disturbing that the perp under investigation continues merrily on in his job.


Not a fan of presumption of innocence, due process, or the fact that elections mean something?

Hoo boy....
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Old 23rd February 2019, 01:08 PM   #479
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oof. No, I said that the Poet's argument was ignorant, indeed TBD nuked it from orbit a few days ago. Y'all seem to have fallen into the fallacy fallacy trap.

It is cool, the big dog will talk you through it
Go for it!
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Old 23rd February 2019, 01:16 PM   #480
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post


Not a fan of presumption of innocence, due process, or the fact that elections mean something?

Hoo boy....
You call having the Republicans in Congress running interference so justice doesn't happen "due process"?

Hmmm.
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