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Old 26th June 2019, 08:55 AM   #1
GnaGnaMan
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Avowed Neo-Nazi Admits to Murder of German Politician

Quote:
An avowed neo-Nazi has admitted to the murder this month of a member of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s center-right party, Walter Lübcke, who had defended her decision to accept refugees into Germany.
[...]
As a young man, he tried to detonate a homemade explosive at an asylum center, according to reports in the German news media.
[...]
Since the killing of Mr. Lübcke, other regional politicians have said they have received an increasing number of death threats.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/26/w...-neo-nazi.html

There is a steady drumbeat of far-right terror attacks. Perhaps the fact that a politician was targeted this time rather than a member of an ethnic minority will cause some people to take the issue more seriously.
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Old 26th June 2019, 02:54 PM   #2
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Shades of the Right Wing Death Squads in the Weimar Republic...
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Old 26th June 2019, 06:31 PM   #3
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Those who are of the opinion that neo-Nazis are not real Nazis, and do no real harm need to rethink their opinions...

....but they wont. They will hardwave instead! Or pretend this didn't happen!
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Old 27th June 2019, 04:48 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Those who are of the opinion that neo-Nazis are not real Nazis, and do no real harm need to rethink their opinions...

....but they wont. They will hardwave instead! Or pretend this didn't happen!
Most of them - at least on this forum - are in the US or on the other side of the world (your neighbourhood), so they can simply say that "some places in Europe may have trouble, but it'll never ever happen here". Skepticism has nothing to do with actually learning anything after all. It's simpler to simply deny things.
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Old 29th June 2019, 01:37 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
....but they wont. They will hardwave instead! Or pretend this didn't happen!
IT'S NOT THE SAAAAAAME!!!!!
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Old 29th June 2019, 04:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
IT'S NOT THE SAAAAAAME!!!!!
As compared to a softwave?
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Old 29th June 2019, 04:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
As compared to a softwave?
Damn you autcorrect... damn you all to hell!!!
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Old 1st July 2019, 01:51 PM   #8
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This is unrelated to the assassin in the OP but I figured that we didn't need another german neo-nazi thread.

Quote:
German neo-Nazi doomsday prepper network 'ordered body bags, made kill lists'

Germany's domestic intelligence agency says a group of neo-Nazis compiled a list of political opponents and ordered 200 body bags and quicklime in preparation for a potential collapse of state order, named "Day X."

Most of the more than 30 preppers, who called themselves Nordkreuz (Northern Cross), were associated with Germany's police and military, including several former and one active member of the elite forces unit of the state police of Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania.

[...]

The BfV also believes that the group, which communicated via the messenger app Telegram, was preparing for Day X with "enormous intensity," and had used data from police computers to compile a list of 25,000 names and addresses.

These mostly belonged to local politicians from Germany's main political parties, the Christian Democrats, Social Democrats, Greens and Left party. All of the politicians were considered supporters of "pro-refugee" policies.

[...]

The conspiracy came to light after federal prosecutors submitted an application a few weeks ago to the Bundestag's intelligence-gathering oversight commission, asking to carry out wider surveillance against Nordkreuz. This application included a "material list" showing that the group had ordered body bags and quicklime, used to dispose of corpses.

State prosecutors have been investigating Nordkreuz since 2017 on suspicion of planning a terrorist attack. Three members of the group are under a separate investigation by state prosecutors in Schwerin for allegedly stealing 10,000 rounds of ammunition and a machine gun from the state police.

[...]
https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-naz...sts/a-49410494

It's funny how the far rights of different countries influence each other. You get neo-nazis in the USA, doomsday preppers in Germany.
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Old 1st July 2019, 09:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
This is unrelated to the assassin in the OP but I figured that we didn't need another german neo-nazi thread.


https://www.dw.com/en/german-neo-naz...sts/a-49410494

It's funny how the far rights of different countries influence each other. You get neo-nazis in the USA, doomsday preppers in Germany.
None of these people represent any danger to the public whatsoever.... apparently
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:29 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
None of these people represent any danger to the public whatsoever.... apparently
Who says they are not a danger? This seems pretty goddamned dangerous to me.

Also; most of these guys are police and military? Had access to police databases? Made kill lists?

Those are ingredients for a very dangerous right-wing terrorist organisation.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 02:29 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Who says they are not a danger? This seems pretty goddamned dangerous to me.

Also; most of these guys are police and military? Had access to police databases? Made kill lists?

Those are ingredients for a very dangerous right-wing terrorist organisation.
Your irony/sarcasm detector needs recalibrating!
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:26 AM   #12
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I'm not familiar enough with Germany to know how much effort is put into discovering domestic terrorists and tracking them, but I wonder how much can really be done to stop "lone wolf" bad actors. The nazi gunman claims to have acted alone. If that is really true, it is entirely possible he did nothing to to signal his specific intentions prior to the murder.

Sure, he was a known neo-nazi with a criminal record, so no doubt he was a known bad agent and potential threat. Perhaps he was being monitored by police. If he didn't conspire with others or otherwise reveal his plans, I don't really see how anyone could have known exactly when, how, and where he was going to attack. Guarding against lone wolves and small cells is extremely difficult.

The US is having quite the renaissance of far-right extremist groups and seems to have dedicated few LE resources to deal with it. Most of our terrorism experts are concerned with overseas threats since 9/11. I doubt the current administration is going to make reallocating such resources to right-wing threats a priority.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 04:47 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm not familiar enough with Germany to know how much effort is put into discovering domestic terrorists and tracking them, but I wonder how much can really be done to stop "lone wolf" bad actors. The nazi gunman claims to have acted alone. If that is really true, it is entirely possible he did nothing to to signal his specific intentions prior to the murder.

Sure, he was a known neo-nazi with a criminal record, so no doubt he was a known bad agent and potential threat. Perhaps he was being monitored by police. If he didn't conspire with others or otherwise reveal his plans, I don't really see how anyone could have known exactly when, how, and where he was going to attack. Guarding against lone wolves and small cells is extremely difficult.

The US is having quite the renaissance of far-right extremist groups and seems to have dedicated few LE resources to deal with it. Most of our terrorism experts are concerned with overseas threats since 9/11. I doubt the current administration is going to make reallocating such resources to right-wing threats a priority.
This is a problem as long as you pretend that just being a Nazi isn't a sign of criminality in and of itself. We should treat Nazis as people belonging to an illegal organisation by virtue of being a Nazi. If that organisation organizes in meat-space or only online shouldn't matter. The point is, a Nazi is a person who wants to overthrow democracy through violent means and is as such always a threat.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:20 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
This is a problem as long as you pretend that just being a Nazi isn't a sign of criminality in and of itself. We should treat Nazis as people belonging to an illegal organisation by virtue of being a Nazi. If that organisation organizes in meat-space or only online shouldn't matter. The point is, a Nazi is a person who wants to overthrow democracy through violent means and is as such always a threat.
My understanding is that Germany has fairly strict laws concerning pro-nazi speech. Presumably those inclined to neo-naziism have the good sense to keep their opinions hidden or suitably anonymous.

How much jail time is acceptable for pro-nazi speech. How much pre-preemptive detention is acceptable for someone flirting with nazi ideology? Who gets to decide what is far right extremism vs acceptable right wing politics? In the world of easy internet access, how much surveillance power would you grant the state to ensure that like minded extremists cannot meet in virtual space?
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Old 2nd July 2019, 06:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
My understanding is that Germany has fairly strict laws concerning pro-nazi speech. Presumably those inclined to neo-naziism have the good sense to keep their opinions hidden or suitably anonymous.

How much jail time is acceptable for pro-nazi speech. How much pre-preemptive detention is acceptable for someone flirting with nazi ideology? Who gets to decide what is far right extremism vs acceptable right wing politics? In the world of easy internet access, how much surveillance power would you grant the state to ensure that like minded extremists cannot meet in virtual space?
Tough questions.

I think the first step is to start treating it as the problem it is by equating it to Islamist terrorism. We made a whole slew of changes to privacy and governmental intrusion in order to combat that. Secondly, I think it's time to start properly regulating the internet.

Sites like 8-chan should be fined, and if they don't clean up their content, closed down. Responsibility should lie on the nation that hosts the server. If that country won't take responsibility, the service should be blocked. This, of course, includes other sites were you find white supremacy, incitement of violence and racism, misoginy and homophobia, including Youtube and Facebook. Also step up counter-intelligence operations by infiltrating these online communitites, identify the lawbreakers and get them off the street.

Do not allow demonstration permits to undemocratic groups prone to violence. Their right to free speech ends when they start threatening other groups.

Penalties should be on the high side, as the crimes are working to overthrow democracy through violence.
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Old 2nd July 2019, 01:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Tough questions.

I think the first step is to start treating it as the problem it is by equating it to Islamist terrorism. We made a whole slew of changes to privacy and governmental intrusion in order to combat that. Secondly, I think it's time to start properly regulating the internet.
Oh, not to mention Gitmo, Extraordinary rendition, indefinite detention without charge. Simply by classfying Nazis and White Supremacist groups as terrorist organisations, you bring the Patriot Act down on their heads.

Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Sites like 8-chan should be fined, and if they don't clean up their content, closed down. Responsibility should lie on the nation that hosts the server. If that country won't take responsibility, the service should be blocked. This, of course, includes other sites were you find white supremacy, incitement of violence and racism, misoginy and homophobia, including Youtube and Facebook. Also step up counter-intelligence operations by infiltrating these online communities, identify the lawbreakers and get them off the street.

Do not allow demonstration permits to undemocratic groups prone to violence. Their right to free speech ends when they start threatening other groups.
100% agree.

Al Qaeda or ISIS websites would never be allowed to be hosted on a US server and those organisations would not be allowed to demonstrate or hold rallies in the US. Why should Nazis and White Supremacist groups be treated any differently - they represent as big, if not a bigger, more clear and more present danger to the security of the US than Islamic terrorists do.

However, the problem is that GOP, and particularly Trump, would never allow this to happen... because a large proportion of his base is made up of these groups - if he classified White Supremacist groups as terrorists, his base would turn on him.

ETA: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/23/p...ror/index.html

"In 2017, there were about 150 arrests on charges the FBI classifies as domestic terror, and about 120 in 2018. The official said the FBI is on course to match or exceed those numbers this fiscal year.

Overall, the FBI has about 5,000 terrorism-related investigations open, including 850 related to domestic terrorism, according to the official. About 1,000 are related to ISIS or other affiliated groups, and another 1,000 are for homegrown violent extremism."

Reflecting law enforcement concern over the issue, earlier today at a hearing Acting DHS Secretary Kevin McAleenan called "white supremacist extremist violence" a "huge issue" and called it an "an evolving and increasingly concerning threat."
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Old 3rd July 2019, 04:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, not to mention Gitmo, Extraordinary rendition, indefinite detention without charge. Simply by classfying Nazis and White Supremacist groups as terrorist organisations, you bring the Patriot Act down on their heads.
I very much doubt this is a viable option. These things are legally sketchy enough now when it involves foreigners seized overseas, it is almost certainly unlawful involving US citizens acting in the USA.

Generally speaking, I find most of the things above morally abhorrent on principle and this does not change, even if I don't like the victims of such treatment. One should also consider, before handing the government such immense power, what will prevent the same government from using such sweeping power against that which you hold dear. If the Trump presidency has taught us anything, it's that broad discretionary power can be easily abused on the whims of the current incumbent. It doesn't take much imagination to realize that the sword you hand government now could be used to lop off your head tomorrow. We should think very carefully before we abandon civil liberties in the name of expediency.


Quote:
100% agree.

Al Qaeda or ISIS websites would never be allowed to be hosted on a US server and those organisations would not be allowed to demonstrate or hold rallies in the US. Why should Nazis and White Supremacist groups be treated any differently - they represent as big, if not a bigger, more clear and more present danger to the security of the US than Islamic terrorists do.

However, the problem is that GOP, and particularly Trump, would never allow this to happen... because a large proportion of his base is made up of these groups - if he classified White Supremacist groups as terrorists, his base would turn on him.

ETA: https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/23/p...ror/index.html

"In 2017, there were about 150 arrests on charges the FBI classifies as domestic terror, and about 120 in 2018. The official said the FBI is on course to match or exceed those numbers this fiscal year.

Overall, the FBI has about 5,000 terrorism-related investigations open, including 850 related to domestic terrorism, according to the official. About 1,000 are related to ISIS or other affiliated groups, and another 1,000 are for homegrown violent extremism."

Reflecting law enforcement concern over the issue, earlier today at a hearing Acting DHS Secretary Kevin McAleenan called "white supremacist extremist violence" a "huge issue" and called it an "an evolving and increasingly concerning threat."
More could, and should, be done to infiltrate, disrupt, and otherwise police these domestic terror cells. I don't think the problem is one of insufficient ability, but rather of political will. Leadership has not prioritized these groups.

I doubt that shutting down these websites will have a huge effect. All these sites are just spin offs of previous sites that either were shut down or banned such content. 8chan is just 4chan with less moderation and only exists for those people who couldn't stay on 4chan. Voat and Gab may as well be "banned content reddit/twitter", respectively. Closing these sites is like pulling weeds, another just sprouts up under new name. A guess-and-check approach will lead to some site that exists of the bleeding edge of lawfully tolerable, no matter what standard is adopted. So long as these people exist and want to organize, they will find a way.
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Old 3rd July 2019, 05:06 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I very much doubt this is a viable option. These things are legally sketchy enough now when it involves foreigners seized overseas, it is almost certainly unlawful involving US citizens acting in the USA.

Generally speaking, I find most of the things above morally abhorrent on principle and this does not change, even if I don't like the victims of such treatment. One should also consider, before handing the government such immense power, what will prevent the same government from using such sweeping power against that which you hold dear. If the Trump presidency has taught us anything, it's that broad discretionary power can be easily abused on the whims of the current incumbent. It doesn't take much imagination to realize that the sword you hand government now could be used to lop off your head tomorrow. We should think very carefully before we abandon civil liberties in the name of expediency.
Completely agreed. I have been very much against giving any government wide ranging ability to surveil citizens. I have come to realize that my opposition to such things only has the effect of making sure the government surveils a certain group of people while leaving other groups - groups that I find more immediately dangerous than the first - unsurveiled. Because of this, while I'd rather the government didn't surveil it's citizens, I will push for surveillance of the unsurveiled groups.



Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
More could, and should, be done to infiltrate, disrupt, and otherwise police these domestic terror cells. I don't think the problem is one of insufficient ability, but rather of political will. Leadership has not prioritized these groups.
This is very true. It's something that the next administration in the US will need to deal with. (Provided it's not another extreme right administration)

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I doubt that shutting down these websites will have a huge effect. All these sites are just spin offs of previous sites that either were shut down or banned such content. 8chan is just 4chan with less moderation and only exists for those people who couldn't stay on 4chan. Voat and Gab may as well be "banned content reddit/twitter", respectively. Closing these sites is like pulling weeds, another just sprouts up under new name. A guess-and-check approach will lead to some site that exists of the bleeding edge of lawfully tolerable, no matter what standard is adopted. So long as these people exist and want to organize, they will find a way.
It won't have a huge effect, but it will cause disruption in recruitment efforts, and it sends the message that these groups aren't welcome in a Western society. I also think authorities should take a look at the whole path to radicalization, including pundits like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, through Laura Loomer and Stephan Moleneux. These people have figurative blood on their hands.
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