Psychics and Missing People - Page 2

Kelly · 17th February 2006, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by CFLarsen

Kelly,

If you feel this amounts to harrassment, report the member to the moderators.

I'll let post #38 stand as a warning. This person just probably read "mother of missing" and didn't go on from there. I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they persisted in PMing me, I would report them.

AK-Dave · 17th February 2006, 02:33 PM

KellyJ,
You should consider doing something like www.stopkaz.com, which is run by our very own RSLancastr. I'm sure he would be willing to give some tips on how to set it up.

-David

AK-Dave · 17th February 2006, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by KellyJ

"hi kellyj i was reading your posts so i checked out your sight and i wanted to let you know your a great person and would like to ask you if maybe i can try and help out i figure things out..."

Apparently, this psychic person has evaluated your vision, and is offering to provide assistance with it. Perhaps they are a psychic optometrist. Were you aware that you has vision issues?

-David

Kelly · 17th February 2006, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by AK-Dave

KellyJ,
You should consider doing something like (site name), which is run by our very own RSLancastr. I'm sure he would be willing to give some tips on how to set it up.

-David

I believe my future blog series on this subject matter will serve the same purpose. While it won't be a separate site, it will suffice. I'm afraid I don't have time to build or maintain any more sites than what I already have.

I hope the Kaz site helps to stop this woman.

Kelly

Kelly · 17th February 2006, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by AK-Dave

Apparently, this psychic person has evaluated your vision, and is offering to provide assistance with it. Perhaps they are a psychic optometrist. Were you aware that you has vision issues?

-David

Haven't you heard of "corneal bending"? At at given moment hundreds of "helpers" are willing my corneas to bend in a precise manner. This allows me to enjoy perfect vision. You should try it too.

Rid yourself of glasses and contacts forever!

Ducky · 17th February 2006, 03:06 PM

Hi Kelly, I'm a bit late to the game with this thread, but let me offer my deepest condolences for your son, and welcome you warmly.

As for TAM, I was just at the last TAM and please believe me it was worth every second of it. I not only recieved help from forum members and the scholarship fund to make it there, but I was also able to do interviews for the podcast skepticality. Your story and your writings would be a very welcome presentation there and I urge you not just to apply for the scholarship when the dates and registrations are announced, but to make sure any paper/presentation you can put together is submitted to be presented at TAM. You have a very important story and experience, and a very important message to give, and I am sure the TAM coordinators would jump at the chance to help you get that message out.

Secondly let me offer any help I can. I write well (though usually not on the forum, haha. You can read my very unpleasantly toned rant about alternative medicine in the thread titled "Doing the least to save your life") and have written articles for others (currently working on a story for the skepchicks ezine) but also you can check my blog at fowlsound.com for a small sampling dealing with my experiences as a cancer patient. I would happily research and write for you if it would help, and if there's another way I can help please PM me and let me know. Even if it is just sending some home made bananna bread for comfort food.

Best wishes, and again welcome.

Kelly · 17th February 2006, 04:01 PM

Hello and thanks.

When the next TAM is announced and open for registration, I will definetely check into it and see if I can go.

I thank you for sharing your experiences and hope you will beat the cancer. I didn't even stop to think that people in precarious health situations would also be subject to quackery just as I am.

I suppose there is a "fruitcake" for every occasion, just as there is a Hallmark card for various times of our lives. (They still have not come up with a "I'm sorry your loved one is missing." card.)

As I get closer to working up the blog series, I will check back and tap into various person/sources to provide info and quotes to enlighten my readership.

I'll take a raincheck on the banana bread, as my husband would surely eat it all, but if you have an extra chocolate, I would take some of that.

Kelly

RichardR · 19th February 2006, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by KellyJ

What I want to be able to accomplish by posting here, is to have a very complete collection of links debunking the advantage takers when it comes to missing person's cases.

This blog has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for.

Kelly · 19th February 2006, 09:15 PM

Thanks, Richard.

That was very interesting and enlightening. I did bookmark it and will very likely refer to it in my series, since it is a good example of a debunking on several fronts.

Kelly

Mariah · 19th February 2006, 09:41 PM

Kelly, I contacted Dr. Michael Shermer. We'll see if you hear from him.

chillzero · 20th February 2006, 06:07 AM

Kind of off topic, kind of on topic...

I wondered if anyone saw the final of the UK TV program that has been discussed here recently in another thread - 'Britain's Psychic Challenge'? It began with 8 'psychics' who were wittled down to 3 in the final, and one was announced the winner.

The reason I raise it here is that the winner - Dianne Lazarus - performed most surprisingly in 2 tests when they were asked to locate a hidden person. One was in a forest, the other along a beach. In both cases Dianne stood for a minute, then set off walking in one direction, and kept that direction (more or less) until she stopped directly beside the person she was seeking. Now, when she won she was asked what her favourite moment was, and she replied that due to these two tests she has been approached by a search and rescue unit to work with them in the future.

I don't know if there was a genuine demonstration of some paranormal ability here (I seriously doubt it), but it dismayed me no end to hear that she (if she is being honest) has been asked for help with no further questions asked, and no further proof of her ability required. I believe this falls into the realm of things such as are being discussed in this thread.

I am waiting to find out where she goes from here, and will let you all know any updates.

Luke T. · 20th February 2006, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by RichardR

This blog has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for.

I also wrote an article about Dubois and a "test" of her psychic abilities for Skeptic Report here.

Luke T. · 20th February 2006, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Mariah

Kelly, I contacted Dr. Michael Shermer. We'll see if you hear from him.

That would be awesome. Perhaps when Randi is restored to health, he can also be approached about this.

sophia8 · 20th February 2006, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by cabby

The reason I raise it here is that the winner - Dianne Lazarus - performed most surprisingly in 2 tests when they were asked to locate a hidden person. One was in a forest, the other along a beach. In both cases Dianne stood for a minute, then set off walking in one direction, and kept that direction (more or less) until she stopped directly beside the person she was seeking. Now, when she won she was asked what her favourite moment was, and she replied that due to these two tests she has been approached by a search and rescue unit to work with them in the future.

I didn't see the show, but it sounds to me like she was simply following a trail. That would be easy in a wooded area - people don't walk through bramble thickets, for instance - and even easier on a beach. Was she set down at the spots where the 'missing person' set off from?
Secendly, most search & rescue outfits are run by civilain volunteers. It was likely that she met up with some members in a pub (or was introduced to them?) and they joked about inviting her to join them. I cannot imagine any search & rescue outfit actually taking along a completely untrained and untried 'civvy' with them. They may be unpaid, but they are all totally professional at their job, highly safety-concious, and rely on each other.

Kelly · 20th February 2006, 09:45 PM

Thanks Mariah and Luke T. I continue to work on background studies in the meantime and will be sending a notify to our families we work for very soon to solicit their stories. Hopefully, they will be moved to share.

chillzero · 21st February 2006, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by sophia8

I didn't see the show, but it sounds to me like she was simply following a trail. That would be easy in a wooded area - people don't walk through bramble thickets, for instance - and even easier on a beach. Was she set down at the spots where the 'missing person' set off from?
Secendly, most search & rescue outfits are run by civilain volunteers. It was likely that she met up with some members in a pub (or was introduced to them?) and they joked about inviting her to join them. I cannot imagine any search & rescue outfit actually taking along a completely untrained and untried 'civvy' with them. They may be unpaid, but they are all totally professional at their job, highly safety-concious, and rely on each other.

(I don't want to derail the thread, so I will just answer this - we can start a new thread on this topic if required.)

At the beach she was brought to the blanket were the boy they hid had been 'playing' before they moved him to the dunes to hide him. There was a clear short line from it to the dunes. This did bother me. However, the boy was not in a straight line from that point, and the bay was quite long, giving a 180 degree view from one end to the other. I also wondered if the men accompanying her at both tests had subconciously glanced in the target direction before telling her to proceed - I think it would be hard not to.

Search and Rescue were present at the test - they failed to find the missing boy - they said they would search for 30 mins, then use a heat seeking device from a helicopter. It can be assumed that it was this team, but she wasn't specific.

In the forest there was no obvious trail, but in both cases she appears to have been the last person to set off, so perhaps the land was a little more scuffed up - you would really need to watch it, because it was surprisingly accurate how she did it. There was substantial forest space to investigate, but they did not move the target between 'psychics' on either test.

However, she failed miserably in some other tests, and appeared to become more precise as the weeks drew on, which makes me suspect assistance from the crew (particularly the "sceptical" police officer).

Kelly · 21st February 2006, 03:21 PM

This is the piece I will be sending out to the families we serve late this evening to ask for their stories. If anyone has any ideas for something I'm lacking, feel free to speak up. Thanks.

"Most of you are familiar with my online blog. (Please see the link in my signature line if you are not.) My blog series on the unidentified deceased and throwaway missing sparked the nationwide Campaign for the Missing, which is already showing results, thanks to a great group of people working together. I am now doing research for another series with potential impact and I want your participation. In fact, not only do I want it, but justice cries out for it. We, the families of the missing, are victims in several ways. If our loved one has been taken from us in a brutal way, we are victims. We may also be victims of a poorly constructed and trained LE structure. We may be victims of society's apathy to our plight because of prejudices against missing persons, particularly adults. We again may be the victims of a nonresponsive media. There is one method of victimization that can be avoided, however, and that is by people who claim to be able to find your missing loved one via paranormal means.

There are several things I want to accomplish in this series. Before going into that, it may be helpful to clarify our position on this: There is not one proven case in which a psychic, using special powers or abilities not given to the typical person, has located a missing person, whether dead or alive. It may be possible that some persons have some ability that defies science and logic, but there is no known scientific evidence of this. These persons re-victimize families by taking away hope where it should stand, and giving hope where there is none. No person has the right to do this to another.

Advantage takers, such as psychics and other users of proported paranormal phenomena, cause unneccesary and damaging pain and anguish to families of the missing. They can also add to financial stress if they charge fees. We're already on a roller coaster ride of events and emotions, and we should have no desire to add to it.

What we wish to accomplish in this series is to demonstrate to families of the missing the real methodology used by these persons. Understanding what goes on behind the scenes should lessen any guilt feelings for not accepting offers of "help" from these persons, whether it is fee-based or not. We want to lessen the pain already present in our every breath, and arm families with the information to defend themselves against these persons.

Marc Klaas, Founder of KlaasKids and father of abducted, then murdered child Polly Klass, said it best: "I have very strong feelings about psychics. They're part of a second wave of predators. The first wave is the person who takes the child. The second is the ambulance-chasing lawyers, the exploitation journalists and psychics. They're off the mark, every last one of them."

Please also note that the FBI and NCMEC maintain that psychics have never solved a single missing person's case.

In order for this series to be completely effective, I need you to share your stories about your dealings with psychics. If you are interested in doing this to help other families of the missing, please send me your story no later than March 3rd. If you feel it would be helpful to you, I will be happy to send you a basic outline of how to present your story."

Mariah · 21st February 2006, 03:28 PM

This is very well written, Kelly. This is a small thing, but I'd suggest spelling out LE and NCMEC in addition to the letters. It ought to have been obvious to me, but I had to stop and think of what they meant.

I think I might try to contact Susan Blackmore.

J. Arthur Hastur · 21st February 2006, 03:33 PM

Very good idea, I wonder why it hasn't been done sooner? The way that psychic predators come out of the woodwork when a child goes missing or is murdered, educating parents on their scams. Something that law enforcement should be aware of as well.

cpolk · 21st February 2006, 03:34 PM

A rule of thumb with an organization such as yours: Pay for results. You pay contractors in every field dependent upon their results, and you should treat 'psychics' the same way.

Tell them that they will receive no pay until results are produced. Set a pre-determined amount, and suggest for pay scale determined by usefulness of the information, so that the more accurate they are, the more they will get paid. If they do not prove to be accurate beyond what could be conceived by merely guessing, do not pay them.

This way, you are giving them a chance to apply their "trade" while protecting your organization from scam artists.

ysabella · 21st February 2006, 04:11 PM

cpolk, the drawback I see with that, is the way psychics then go on to claim success or at least contribution to the case, no matter what really happened - e.g. they'll add to their web site "Worked closely with Bedrock P.D. in missing Pebbles case," when not one of the cops ever passed word one with them.
You would have to add a clause of "absolutely no disclosure to the press" or something like that. You know, maybe that would be the fastest way to get rid of them? Only let them on the case if they sign a contract stating they won't say anything to any media whatsoever?

Luke T. · 21st February 2006, 04:11 PM

Excellent post soliciting input from victims of psychics claiming to find missing people, Kelly.

One misspelling:

Originally Posted by KellyJ

Advantage takers, such as psychics and other users of proported paranormal phenomena

I believe you mean "purported".

Also, be aware that some people are going to respond to your solicitation claiming success with psychics. How do you plan on handling that? Are you not going to include their remarks in your future reports?

You also need to be aware that some respondees may claim their missing loved one was found by a psychic. Beware of frauds. These may be shills for the very psychics you are fighting. Make sure you ask for bona fide evidence. News report, etc. (ETA: Make sure they are who they say they are. Name, address, phone number, name of investigating officer. You get the idea.)

I admire your courage and the amount of energy you are putting into this effort. You must love your son very, very much.

JLam · 21st February 2006, 05:01 PM

Very nice, KellyJ. We'll all be here to help you along the way. Keep us updated on your efforts.

cpolk · 21st February 2006, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by ysabella

cpolk, the drawback I see with that, is the way psychics then go on to claim success or at least contribution to the case, no matter what really happened - e.g. they'll add to their web site "Worked closely with Bedrock P.D. in missing Pebbles case," when not one of the cops ever passed word one with them.
You would have to add a clause of "absolutely no disclosure to the press" or something like that. You know, maybe that would be the fastest way to get rid of them? Only let them on the case if they sign a contract stating they won't say anything to any media whatsoever?

Trust me, the fastest way to get rid of them is to say that they won't get paid until results are confirmed.

A contract alone would prevent them from libel or slander, such as claiming undue credit. You will have a clear definition of what they were to provide and whether or not they provided it. If they do provide it, let them shout it from the hilltops. If they don't, threatening legal action will remove it from their website.

That is the mistake that police departments make. They don't enforce signing contracts because they believe the nonsense about "you must forgo common sense", and as a result have no legal standing, because they cannot prove that the psychics did not provide the results they claimed that they would.

For instance, without a contract detailing what type of information counts as viable information, a psychic could say, "I see a body of water" on a case involving a person who went missing on a fishing trip, and they would legally have the right to proclaim that they provided information.

Without a contract, that is paramount to having to pay an archetitect's full fee for building a house because he gave you the number of a guy who sells lumber cheap, then having the archiect proclaim that he took a part in designing your building. With a contract, you can prove what was supposed to be done, and through record-keeping you can prove what was actually done.

On that note, have the "psychics" provide everything in writing and/or on tape.

Or just skip the psychic connection altogether. This is a lot of work on your part, and you should only do it to placate the family members who feel that you are not using all the resources available to you. A statement regarding psychics, as you had posted earlier, is the route I would take.

Luke T. · 21st February 2006, 05:41 PM

If one of my children went missing and a psychic contacted me, I'd invite them over. And have the press there when they arrived. Then make a speech about what a piece of crap lowlife bloodsucking vampire the psychic is for trying to victimize me in the worst period of my life. "Snap a photo of this scumbag, folks, for your readers/viewers!"

I doubt I'd get any more calls from psychics or the journalists who shill for them.

RichardR · 21st February 2006, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by cabby

I wondered if anyone saw the final of the UK TV program that has been discussed here recently in another thread - 'Britain's Psychic Challenge'? It began with 8 'psychics' who were wittled down to 3 in the final, and one was announced the winner.

If they were really psychic, why would the losing ones participate? I mean, if they already knew they were going to lose before they started…

Kelly · 21st February 2006, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mariah

This is very well written, Kelly. This is a small thing, but I'd suggest spelling out LE and NCMEC in addition to the letters. It ought to have been obvious to me, but I had to stop and think of what they meant.

I think I might try to contact Susan Blackmore.

Thanks, Mariah. I should have spelled those out for this audience. The families know what LE and NCMEC is, but others outside the circle would not.

LE=Law Enforcement
NCMEC=National Center for Missing and Exploited Children

Thanks for contacting Susan!

Kelly · 21st February 2006, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by cpolk

Trust me, the fastest way to get rid of them is to say that they won't get paid until results are confirmed.

A contract alone would prevent them from libel or slander, such as claiming undue credit. You will have a clear definition of what they were to provide and whether or not they provided it. If they do provide it, let them shout it from the hilltops. If they don't, threatening legal action will remove it from their website.

That is the mistake that police departments make. They don't enforce signing contracts because they believe the nonsense about "you must forgo common sense", and as a result have no legal standing, because they cannot prove that the psychics did not provide the results they claimed that they would.

For instance, without a contract detailing what type of information counts as viable information, a psychic could say, "I see a body of water" on a case involving a person who went missing on a fishing trip, and they would legally have the right to proclaim that they provided information.

Without a contract, that is paramount to having to pay an archetitect's full fee for building a house because he gave you the number of a guy who sells lumber cheap, then having the archiect proclaim that he took a part in designing your building. With a contract, you can prove what was supposed to be done, and through record-keeping you can prove what was actually done.

On that note, have the "psychics" provide everything in writing and/or on tape.

Or just skip the psychic connection altogether. This is a lot of work on your part, and you should only do it to placate the family members who feel that you are not using all the resources available to you. A statement regarding psychics, as you had posted earlier, is the route I would take.

In regards to this whole issue about offering money to psychics if they can prove themselves:

Our mission is to help the families. We don't want to become a missing person/psychic busting entity. If we offered something like that, they'd be coming out of the woodwork to try for the money, and we'd be spending our days and nights determining if anyone gave adequate proof rather than helping the families.

It's an interesting concept, but in a sense, that's what the Million Dollar Challenge is, correct?

My reason behind what I am doing is to show these victims the truth behind the mystique and to help them feel justified in the decision not to go down this futile and painful road.

I want to alleviate their guilt and keep them from giving into the desperation/helplessness that comes with the territory.

If we bust some of these losers while doing this, that's icing on the cake.

Kelly · 21st February 2006, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

Excellent post soliciting input from victims of psychics claiming to find missing people, Kelly.

One misspelling:

I believe you mean "purported".

Also, be aware that some people are going to respond to your solicitation claiming success with psychics. How do you plan on handling that? Are you not going to include their remarks in your future reports?

You also need to be aware that some respondees may claim their missing loved one was found by a psychic. Beware of frauds. These may be shills for the very psychics you are fighting. Make sure you ask for bona fide evidence. News report, etc. (ETA: Make sure they are who they say they are. Name, address, phone number, name of investigating officer. You get the idea.)

I admire your courage and the amount of energy you are putting into this effort. You must love your son very, very much.

Thanks, Luke. I'll correct that word. I knew it didn't look right, but the words were flowing, so I ignored it.

The issues with attracting even more vermin needs to be dicussed. In my writings, I will make it clear that we are not going to become an agency that investigates psychic's claims. I can imagine it getting very out of hand. I will nip it in the bud by letting them know that their emails will be deleted. At the same time, I don't want to give the appearance of not being open to the possibility. This may keep fence sitters from becoming defensive towards us. That may buy time to dazzle them with logic and facts.

Here's my idea on the latter: I will encourage those persons to come here and post their claims. That is, if the members here are ok with me referring them here.

I would say something such as:

"We understand that many people believe that psychics are effective in solving crimes and finding missing people. Please keep in mind that the goal of this series is to help families understand techniques used by persons making these claims and make better decisions about the use of psychics.

Project Jason and its volunteers cannot act as a clearinghouse for persons claiming success in using paranormal means to locate missing persons. We will be unable to respond to emails or other correspondence sent to us from persons making these claims or persons offering information about or referrals to psychics.

We instead invite those persons to present their evidence to the members of the James Randi Education Foundation. They have a forum available for you to discuss your claims. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...isplay.php?f=7 "

Would that be acceptable to the members and the foundation?

Kelly · 21st February 2006, 11:42 PM

BTW, thanks to all for the encouragement and assistance.

Here's another idea that came to me that would be not only helpful to me timewise, but also would lend to the air of authority in presenting this.

Would members who have previous writing/presenting experience like to be a guest writer in the series and present various debunking scenarios?

For example, one person would take the category of medium and present the definition and then give an example of the methods used. Some of the example dialogs I've seen would be very effective, especially when the scripts are written with a missing person's case in mind.

Thoughts? Volunteers?

I can finally post links! Here's my standard signature:

Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski
President and Founder,
Project Jason
http://www.projectjason.org
Read our Voice for the Missing Blog
http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

Gr8wight · 22nd February 2006, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by RichardR

This blog has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for.

Kelly,

Please allow me to add my welcome to the other voices speaking up. You are a truly brave and strong woman. On behalf of those less versed in critical thinking than we, I thank you.

Just one note regarding the blog RichardR provided a link to. Be aware that twopercentco.com do not pull any punches, and do not censor themselves. You might want to warn anyone you refer to their site that they will likely encounter off-colour language.

Kelly · 22nd February 2006, 01:49 AM

Hello Gr8wight....love the hat. Thanks for the warm welcome.

I don't feel brave, really. Perhaps the roots of this are found in my rebellious teenage years. I always considered myself to be a "Rebel with a Cause".

As an adult, I now get to act this out and get away with it. At least I'm not breaking any laws!

I am always reminded, however, of the reason I am in this position, in which there is no humor. I do consider it a privlege to be in a position of having an effect on so many lives. It is one I do not take lightly.

I noticed the language at twopercent. If I choose to use that link in the series, I will post a warning. Thanks for being sensitive to the needs of others.

Kelly

Scoobmaster · 22nd February 2006, 06:33 AM

Hi kellyJ!

I don't post messages here as often as many others, but let me extend a welcome to the forums. I also express my deepest sympathy concerning your missing son. After following this thread for a week, I found tragic irony in a news story in my local paper about a woman who went missing 6 weeks ago. Here is the pertinent quote (emphasis added by me):

"Without any fresh news from police, her family turned to a local psychic last week. Phil Jordan told them that he envisioned Madden as meeting up with two men. He told them that she may have been injured in the head or chest, but that he didn't envision her as being dead, he said on a tape recording.

Jordan also pointed them to Great Bend, Pa. - a border community with New York state. This information gave them hope. One of the first tips to police was that a woman fitting Madden's description had been spotted hitchhiking in Great Bend.

The family drove the streets of the small Pennsylvania community. They put up posters there and spoke to Pennsylvania State Police. But they've heard nothing, her mother and father said. The lead never panned out."

Gee. I wonder why?

Here is the link to the full news report:
http://pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.d...602220313/1006

Sounds all too familiar, doesn't it? The name Phil Jordan is probably all too familiar to members of the forum.

elaine · 22nd February 2006, 07:06 AM

KellyJ,

Thanks for starting this thread. I've referred a friend, who is a big Sylvia Brown fan, to your website and here. My hope is to show her that there is harm in what these people do.

Keep up the great work!!

Gr8wight · 22nd February 2006, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by KellyJ

Hello Gr8wight....love the hat. Thanks for the warm welcome.

Unfortunately, it is not my hat.

Quote:

I don't feel brave, really.

I think that those we see as brave never see themselves as brave. They simply see themselves as having done what was necessary.

Quote:

I noticed the language at twopercent. If I choose to use that link in the series, I will post a warning. Thanks for being sensitive to the needs of others.

Kelly

Shhh, don't tell anyone. You'll spoil my rep.

Kelly · 22nd February 2006, 10:35 AM

Oh my, Wanderin....you seem to have placed yourself on the defensive. If you recall, you pm'd me, offering your "services". I assumed you must have not really read the thread well, otherwise it would have been apparent to you that I did not want to receive solicitations of this type. I encouraged you to post a separate thread about whatever it is that you say you do for the edification of others. Instead, you came back here and launched a verbal assault. If you go back to post #38, you will see that I mentioned I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I was not unkind. However, you were.

Whether or not a person wants money or does not want money has no bearing on the damage done to the psyche by individuals claiming to have knowledge of a missing person's whereabouts who do not. I do not close the door completely on such persons. I do tell them that if they think they know something, they should take that information straight to law enforcement. I let them discern if the information has any merit and act upon it accordingly.

I don't know if you have children or not, and even if you don't, why don’t you imagine the person you love most in the world? Imagine that he/she is gone, and you have no idea what has happened to them. Dozens, and perhaps even hundreds of people come forward, offering their "help". They tell you all sorts of things, none of them the same as the others, and none of them ever results in finding the missing loved one. Regardless, you MUST listen to all of it, over and over again, lest you be accused of not wanting to find the missing loved one. You must listen to them tell you the most horrid things you can imagine being done to a person by another. You must listen to them telling you that your missing loved one was stabbed, beaten, and then their head was bashed in. You must listen as they tell you that your missing loved one was still alive, wimpering and asking for help as he/she drew their last breath, and no one was listening. He/she was all alone, and then the end came.

All of these people who come to you offering help want you to go through something like that. How did you feel reading that? How many times would you want to hear stories like that? What do you think that does to a person? Do you think it's healthy? How is it that it is called "helping"? Nothing has ever come of it except for pain. Is pain helpful? Does pain find the missing person?

Granted, this is the worst of this type of thing, but people who are not in this position have no idea of the roller coaster ride of emotions that we ride daily. We live with an ongoing trauma. Anyone in the medical field can understand what trauma does to a person mentally and physically. To add to that trauma needlessly is not a good idea. Needlessly refers to the fact that persons using paranormal means have not proven themselves useful in finding the missing person. I just don't know how much clearer I can make this. And in regards to caring, I care a great deal. If I didn’t, I wouldn't do this work while dealing with my own loss. Anyone who knows the work I have done cannnot dispute that I care. The fact that you do not understand how I can disagree with your opinion does not negate my caring.

BTW, every single word written on the website and the blog are written by me unless otherwise noted. I really don't know what that has to do with anything, just as I do not understand the comment about donations. Where do you think a nonprofit gets their money? My husband and I are both working stiffs. Our family is not well off financially, so we cannot front the money to the organization to pay for the services provided. Just as with almost all small nonprofits, we depend upon the generosity of the public to help us accomplish our goals. We have no paid staff and we do not not even have an office. The only equipment owned by the organization is one phone and one laptop, which was donated. Without donations, how would we pay the phone or the website bill? How would we pay for the Personal ID Kits and other safety/prevention information we give away? How would we pay for the financial aid given to the families for visual aids, such as posters? We do not charge one penny to anyone for these services. We will not take money from the families we serve. That is wrong in our opinion. How would you propose that we pay for all of this if not through donations from generous people?

I have taken a considerable amount of my time now to help you understand this, Wanderin. I hope it is helpful to you in some way.

Now I ask that the thread be returned to its purpose, which is for members here to help me help the families of the missing understand the issues regarding psychics. I again encourage you to start your own thread about your methods. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Luke T. · 22nd February 2006, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by KellyJ

I don't know if you have children or not, and even if you don't, why don’t you imagine the person you love most in the world? Imagine that he/she is gone, and you have no idea what has happened to them. Dozens, and perhaps even hundreds of people come forward, offering their "help". They tell you all sorts of things, none of them the same as the others, and none of them ever results in finding the missing loved one. Regardless, you MUST listen to all of it, over and over again, lest you be accused of not wanting to find the missing loved one. You must listen to them tell you the most horrid things you can imagine being done to a person by another. You must listen to them telling you that your missing loved one was stabbed, beaten, and then their head was bashed in. You must listen as they tell you that your missing loved one was still alive, wimpering and asking for help as he/she drew their last breath, and no one was listening. He/she was all alone, and then the end came.

Kelly, if (WHEN!) you end up making a presentation at The Amazing Meeting next year, this should be your opening statement.

Nominated for the language award. I’ve linked to it in case Kelly doesn’t know what that is.

Beth · 22nd February 2006, 11:33 AM

Wow, Kelly. You have my compliments for your post. I'm glad to see it's already been nominated for the language award.

Ducky · 22nd February 2006, 11:33 AM

Kelly I second that Language nomination.

Also, I would point out WanderinWTF also thinks his "powers" can cure back pain. Pay no attention to that troll.

Luke T. · 22nd February 2006, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by fowlsound

Kelly I second that Language nomination.

Also, I would point out WanderinWTF also thinks his "powers" can cure back pain. Pay no attention to that troll.

Love your response to that post.

17th February 2006, 02:33 PM	#42
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 586	KellyJ, You should consider doing something like www.stopkaz.com, which is run by our very own RSLancastr. I'm sure he would be willing to give some tips on how to set it up. -David
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 586

17th February 2006, 02:38 PM	#43
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 586	Originally Posted by KellyJ "hi kellyj i was reading your posts so i checked out your sight* and i wanted to let you know your a great person and would like to ask you if maybe i can try and help out i figure things out...*" Apparently, this psychic person has evaluated your vision, and is offering to provide assistance with it. Perhaps they are a psychic optometrist. Were you aware that you has vision issues? -David
AK-Dave Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 586

17th February 2006, 03:06 PM	#46
Ducky Guest Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11,933	Hi Kelly, I'm a bit late to the game with this thread, but let me offer my deepest condolences for your son, and welcome you warmly. As for TAM, I was just at the last TAM and please believe me it was worth every second of it. I not only recieved help from forum members and the scholarship fund to make it there, but I was also able to do interviews for the podcast skepticality. Your story and your writings would be a very welcome presentation there and I urge you not just to apply for the scholarship when the dates and registrations are announced, but to make sure any paper/presentation you can put together is submitted to be presented at TAM. You have a very important story and experience, and a very important message to give, and I am sure the TAM coordinators would jump at the chance to help you get that message out. Secondly let me offer any help I can. I write well (though usually not on the forum, haha. You can read my very unpleasantly toned rant about alternative medicine in the thread titled "Doing the least to save your life") and have written articles for others (currently working on a story for the skepchicks ezine) but also you can check my blog at fowlsound.com for a small sampling dealing with my experiences as a cancer patient. I would happily research and write for you if it would help, and if there's another way I can help please PM me and let me know. Even if it is just sending some home made bananna bread for comfort food. Best wishes, and again welcome.
Ducky Guest Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 11,933

19th February 2006, 03:15 PM	#48
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	Originally Posted by KellyJ What I want to be able to accomplish by posting here, is to have a very complete collection of links debunking the advantage takers when it comes to missing person's cases. This blog has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for.
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	__________________ Read: Skeptico - Critical thinking for an irrational world

19th February 2006, 09:41 PM	#50
Mariah Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 227	Kelly, I contacted Dr. Michael Shermer. We'll see if you hear from him.
Mariah Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 227	__________________ www.sherryaustin.com

17th February 2006, 02:32 PM	#41
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Originally Posted by CFLarsen Kelly, If you feel this amounts to harrassment, report the member to the moderators. I'll let post #38 stand as a warning. This person just probably read "mother of missing" and didn't go on from there. I will give them the benefit of the doubt. If they persisted in PMing me, I would report them.

17th February 2006, 02:59 PM	#44
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Originally Posted by AK-Dave KellyJ, You should consider doing something like (site name), which is run by our very own RSLancastr. I'm sure he would be willing to give some tips on how to set it up. -David I believe my future blog series on this subject matter will serve the same purpose. While it won't be a separate site, it will suffice. I'm afraid I don't have time to build or maintain any more sites than what I already have. I hope the Kaz site helps to stop this woman. Kelly

17th February 2006, 03:02 PM	#45
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Originally Posted by AK-Dave Apparently, this psychic person has evaluated your vision, and is offering to provide assistance with it. Perhaps they are a psychic optometrist. Were you aware that you has vision issues? -David Haven't you heard of "corneal bending"? At at given moment hundreds of "helpers" are willing my corneas to bend in a precise manner. This allows me to enjoy perfect vision. You should try it too. Rid yourself of glasses and contacts forever!

17th February 2006, 04:01 PM	#47
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Hello and thanks. When the next TAM is announced and open for registration, I will definetely check into it and see if I can go. I thank you for sharing your experiences and hope you will beat the cancer. I didn't even stop to think that people in precarious health situations would also be subject to quackery just as I am. I suppose there is a "fruitcake" for every occasion, just as there is a Hallmark card for various times of our lives. (They still have not come up with a "I'm sorry your loved one is missing." card.) As I get closer to working up the blog series, I will check back and tap into various person/sources to provide info and quotes to enlighten my readership. I'll take a raincheck on the banana bread, as my husband would surely eat it all, but if you have an extra chocolate, I would take some of that. Kelly

19th February 2006, 09:15 PM	#49
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Thanks, Richard. That was very interesting and enlightening. I did bookmark it and will very likely refer to it in my series, since it is a good example of a debunking on several fronts. Kelly

20th February 2006, 06:07 AM	#51
chillzero Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 15,533	Kind of off topic, kind of on topic... I wondered if anyone saw the final of the UK TV program that has been discussed here recently in another thread - 'Britain's Psychic Challenge'? It began with 8 'psychics' who were wittled down to 3 in the final, and one was announced the winner. The reason I raise it here is that the winner - Dianne Lazarus - performed most surprisingly in 2 tests when they were asked to locate a hidden person. One was in a forest, the other along a beach. In both cases Dianne stood for a minute, then set off walking in one direction, and kept that direction (more or less) until she stopped directly beside the person she was seeking. Now, when she won she was asked what her favourite moment was, and she replied that due to these two tests she has been approached by a search and rescue unit to work with them in the future. I don't know if there was a genuine demonstration of some paranormal ability here (I seriously doubt it), but it dismayed me no end to hear that she (if she is being honest) has been asked for help with no further questions asked, and no further proof of her ability required. I believe this falls into the realm of things such as are being discussed in this thread. I am waiting to find out where she goes from here, and will let you all know any updates.

20th February 2006, 08:08 AM	#52
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,716	Originally Posted by RichardR This blog has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for. I also wrote an article about Dubois and a "test" of her psychic abilities for Skeptic Report here.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,716

20th February 2006, 08:18 AM	#53
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,716	Originally Posted by Mariah Kelly, I contacted Dr. Michael Shermer. We'll see if you hear from him. That would be awesome. Perhaps when Randi is restored to health, he can also be approached about this.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,716

20th February 2006, 12:09 PM	#54
sophia8 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 2,457	Originally Posted by cabby The reason I raise it here is that the winner - Dianne Lazarus - performed most surprisingly in 2 tests when they were asked to locate a hidden person. One was in a forest, the other along a beach. In both cases Dianne stood for a minute, then set off walking in one direction, and kept that direction (more or less) until she stopped directly beside the person she was seeking. Now, when she won she was asked what her favourite moment was, and she replied that due to these two tests she has been approached by a search and rescue unit to work with them in the future. I didn't see the show, but it sounds to me like she was simply following a trail. That would be easy in a wooded area - people don't walk through bramble thickets, for instance - and even easier on a beach. Was she set down at the spots where the 'missing person' set off from? Secendly, most search & rescue outfits are run by civilain volunteers. It was likely that she met up with some members in a pub (or was introduced to them?) and they joked about inviting her to join them. I cannot imagine any search & rescue outfit actually taking along a completely untrained and untried 'civvy' with them. They may be unpaid, but they are all totally professional at their job, highly safety-concious, and rely on each other.
sophia8 Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 2,457

20th February 2006, 09:45 PM	#55
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Thanks Mariah and Luke T. I continue to work on background studies in the meantime and will be sending a notify to our families we work for very soon to solicit their stories. Hopefully, they will be moved to share.

21st February 2006, 06:17 AM	#56
chillzero Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 15,533	Originally Posted by sophia8 I didn't see the show, but it sounds to me like she was simply following a trail. That would be easy in a wooded area - people don't walk through bramble thickets, for instance - and even easier on a beach. Was she set down at the spots where the 'missing person' set off from? Secendly, most search & rescue outfits are run by civilain volunteers. It was likely that she met up with some members in a pub (or was introduced to them?) and they joked about inviting her to join them. I cannot imagine any search & rescue outfit actually taking along a completely untrained and untried 'civvy' with them. They may be unpaid, but they are all totally professional at their job, highly safety-concious, and rely on each other. (I don't want to derail the thread, so I will just answer this - we can start a new thread on this topic if required.) At the beach she was brought to the blanket were the boy they hid had been 'playing' before they moved him to the dunes to hide him. There was a clear short line from it to the dunes. This did bother me. However, the boy was not in a straight line from that point, and the bay was quite long, giving a 180 degree view from one end to the other. I also wondered if the men accompanying her at both tests had subconciously glanced in the target direction before telling her to proceed - I think it would be hard not to. Search and Rescue were present at the test - they failed to find the missing boy - they said they would search for 30 mins, then use a heat seeking device from a helicopter. It can be assumed that it was this team, but she wasn't specific. In the forest there was no obvious trail, but in both cases she appears to have been the last person to set off, so perhaps the land was a little more scuffed up - you would really need to watch it, because it was surprisingly accurate how she did it. There was substantial forest space to investigate, but they did not move the target between 'psychics' on either test. However, she failed miserably in some other tests, and appeared to become more precise as the weeks drew on, which makes me suspect assistance from the crew (particularly the "sceptical" police officer).

21st February 2006, 03:21 PM	#57
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	This is the piece I will be sending out to the families we serve late this evening to ask for their stories. If anyone has any ideas for something I'm lacking, feel free to speak up. Thanks. "Most of you are familiar with my online blog. (Please see the link in my signature line if you are not.) My blog series on the unidentified deceased and throwaway missing sparked the nationwide Campaign for the Missing, which is already showing results, thanks to a great group of people working together. I am now doing research for another series with potential impact and I want your participation. In fact, not only do I want it, but justice cries out for it. We, the families of the missing, are victims in several ways. If our loved one has been taken from us in a brutal way, we are victims. We may also be victims of a poorly constructed and trained LE structure. We may be victims of society's apathy to our plight because of prejudices against missing persons, particularly adults. We again may be the victims of a nonresponsive media. There is one method of victimization that can be avoided, however, and that is by people who claim to be able to find your missing loved one via paranormal means. There are several things I want to accomplish in this series. Before going into that, it may be helpful to clarify our position on this: There is not one proven case in which a psychic, using special powers or abilities not given to the typical person, has located a missing person, whether dead or alive. It may be possible that some persons have some ability that defies science and logic, but there is no known scientific evidence of this. These persons re-victimize families by taking away hope where it should stand, and giving hope where there is none. No person has the right to do this to another. Advantage takers, such as psychics and other users of proported paranormal phenomena, cause unneccesary and damaging pain and anguish to families of the missing. They can also add to financial stress if they charge fees. We're already on a roller coaster ride of events and emotions, and we should have no desire to add to it. What we wish to accomplish in this series is to demonstrate to families of the missing the real methodology used by these persons. Understanding what goes on behind the scenes should lessen any guilt feelings for not accepting offers of "help" from these persons, whether it is fee-based or not. We want to lessen the pain already present in our every breath, and arm families with the information to defend themselves against these persons. Marc Klaas, Founder of KlaasKids and father of abducted, then murdered child Polly Klass, said it best: "I have very strong feelings about psychics. They're part of a second wave of predators. The first wave is the person who takes the child. The second is the ambulance-chasing lawyers, the exploitation journalists and psychics. They're off the mark, every last one of them." Please also note that the FBI and NCMEC maintain that psychics have never solved a single missing person's case. In order for this series to be completely effective, I need you to share your stories about your dealings with psychics. If you are interested in doing this to help other families of the missing, please send me your story no later than March 3rd. If you feel it would be helpful to you, I will be happy to send you a basic outline of how to present your story."

21st February 2006, 03:28 PM	#58
Mariah Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 227	This is very well written, Kelly. This is a small thing, but I'd suggest spelling out LE and NCMEC in addition to the letters. It ought to have been obvious to me, but I had to stop and think of what they meant. I think I might try to contact Susan Blackmore.
Mariah Thinker Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 227	__________________ www.sherryaustin.com

21st February 2006, 03:33 PM	#59
J. Arthur Hastur Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 495	Very good idea, I wonder why it hasn't been done sooner? The way that psychic predators come out of the woodwork when a child goes missing or is murdered, educating parents on their scams. Something that law enforcement should be aware of as well.

21st February 2006, 03:34 PM	#60
cpolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 314	A rule of thumb with an organization such as yours: Pay for results. You pay contractors in every field dependent upon their results, and you should treat 'psychics' the same way. Tell them that they will receive no pay until results are produced. Set a pre-determined amount, and suggest for pay scale determined by usefulness of the information, so that the more accurate they are, the more they will get paid. If they do not prove to be accurate beyond what could be conceived by merely guessing, do not pay them. This way, you are giving them a chance to apply their "trade" while protecting your organization from scam artists.
cpolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 314

21st February 2006, 04:11 PM	#61
ysabella Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 701	cpolk, the drawback I see with that, is the way psychics then go on to claim success or at least contribution to the case, no matter what really happened - e.g. they'll add to their web site "Worked closely with Bedrock P.D. in missing Pebbles case," when not one of the cops ever passed word one with them. You would have to add a clause of "absolutely no disclosure to the press" or something like that. You know, maybe that would be the fastest way to get rid of them? Only let them on the case if they sign a contract stating they won't say anything to any media whatsoever?
ysabella Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 701	__________________ "The greater the ignorance, the greater the dogmatism." - Sir William Osler

21st February 2006, 05:01 PM	#63
JLam Proud Skepkid Parent Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,149	Very nice, KellyJ. We'll all be here to help you along the way. Keep us updated on your efforts.
	__________________ Help take down Sylvia Browne. "what's dicksing? my dicksionary have no word for that" - Pillory

21st February 2006, 05:37 PM	#64
cpolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 314	Originally Posted by ysabella cpolk, the drawback I see with that, is the way psychics then go on to claim success or at least contribution to the case, no matter what really happened - e.g. they'll add to their web site "Worked closely with Bedrock P.D. in missing Pebbles case," when not one of the cops ever passed word one with them. You would have to add a clause of "absolutely no disclosure to the press" or something like that. You know, maybe that would be the fastest way to get rid of them? Only let them on the case if they sign a contract stating they won't say anything to any media whatsoever? Trust me, the fastest way to get rid of them is to say that they won't get paid until results are confirmed. A contract alone would prevent them from libel or slander, such as claiming undue credit. You will have a clear definition of what they were to provide and whether or not they provided it. If they do provide it, let them shout it from the hilltops. If they don't, threatening legal action will remove it from their website. That is the mistake that police departments make. They don't enforce signing contracts because they believe the nonsense about "you must forgo common sense", and as a result have no legal standing, because they cannot prove that the psychics did not provide the results they claimed that they would. For instance, without a contract detailing what type of information counts as viable information, a psychic could say, "I see a body of water" on a case involving a person who went missing on a fishing trip, and they would legally have the right to proclaim that they provided information. Without a contract, that is paramount to having to pay an archetitect's full fee for building a house because he gave you the number of a guy who sells lumber cheap, then having the archiect proclaim that he took a part in designing your building. With a contract, you can prove what was supposed to be done, and through record-keeping you can prove what was actually done. On that note, have the "psychics" provide everything in writing and/or on tape. Or just skip the psychic connection altogether. This is a lot of work on your part, and you should only do it to placate the family members who feel that you are not using all the resources available to you. A statement regarding psychics, as you had posted earlier, is the route I would take.
cpolk Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 314

21st February 2006, 05:41 PM	#65
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,716	If one of my children went missing and a psychic contacted me, I'd invite them over. And have the press there when they arrived. Then make a speech about what a piece of crap lowlife bloodsucking vampire the psychic is for trying to victimize me in the worst period of my life. "Snap a photo of this scumbag, folks, for your readers/viewers!" I doubt I'd get any more calls from psychics or the journalists who shill for them.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,716

21st February 2006, 08:57 PM	#66
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	Originally Posted by cabby I wondered if anyone saw the final of the UK TV program that has been discussed here recently in another thread - 'Britain's Psychic Challenge'? It began with 8 'psychics' who were wittled down to 3 in the final, and one was announced the winner. If they were really psychic, why would the losing ones participate? I mean, if they already knew they were going to lose before they started…
RichardR Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 2,274	__________________ Read: Skeptico - Critical thinking for an irrational world

21st February 2006, 10:36 PM	#67
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Originally Posted by Mariah This is very well written, Kelly. This is a small thing, but I'd suggest spelling out LE and NCMEC in addition to the letters. It ought to have been obvious to me, but I had to stop and think of what they meant. I think I might try to contact Susan Blackmore. Thanks, Mariah. I should have spelled those out for this audience. The families know what LE and NCMEC is, but others outside the circle would not. LE=Law Enforcement NCMEC=National Center for Missing and Exploited Children Thanks for contacting Susan!

21st February 2006, 10:47 PM	#68
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Originally Posted by cpolk Trust me, the fastest way to get rid of them is to say that they won't get paid until results are confirmed. A contract alone would prevent them from libel or slander, such as claiming undue credit. You will have a clear definition of what they were to provide and whether or not they provided it. If they do provide it, let them shout it from the hilltops. If they don't, threatening legal action will remove it from their website. That is the mistake that police departments make. They don't enforce signing contracts because they believe the nonsense about "you must forgo common sense", and as a result have no legal standing, because they cannot prove that the psychics did not provide the results they claimed that they would. For instance, without a contract detailing what type of information counts as viable information, a psychic could say, "I see a body of water" on a case involving a person who went missing on a fishing trip, and they would legally have the right to proclaim that they provided information. Without a contract, that is paramount to having to pay an archetitect's full fee for building a house because he gave you the number of a guy who sells lumber cheap, then having the archiect proclaim that he took a part in designing your building. With a contract, you can prove what was supposed to be done, and through record-keeping you can prove what was actually done. On that note, have the "psychics" provide everything in writing and/or on tape. Or just skip the psychic connection altogether. This is a lot of work on your part, and you should only do it to placate the family members who feel that you are not using all the resources available to you. A statement regarding psychics, as you had posted earlier, is the route I would take. In regards to this whole issue about offering money to psychics if they can prove themselves: Our mission is to help the families. We don't want to become a missing person/psychic busting entity. If we offered something like that, they'd be coming out of the woodwork to try for the money, and we'd be spending our days and nights determining if anyone gave adequate proof rather than helping the families. It's an interesting concept, but in a sense, that's what the Million Dollar Challenge is, correct? My reason behind what I am doing is to show these victims the truth behind the mystique and to help them feel justified in the decision not to go down this futile and painful road. I want to alleviate their guilt and keep them from giving into the desperation/helplessness that comes with the territory. If we bust some of these losers while doing this, that's icing on the cake.

21st February 2006, 11:20 PM	#69
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Originally Posted by Luke T. Excellent post soliciting input from victims of psychics claiming to find missing people, Kelly. One misspelling: I believe you mean "purported". Also, be aware that some people are going to respond to your solicitation claiming success with psychics. How do you plan on handling that? Are you not going to include their remarks in your future reports? You also need to be aware that some respondees may claim their missing loved one was found by a psychic. Beware of frauds. These may be shills for the very psychics you are fighting. Make sure you ask for bona fide evidence. News report, etc. (ETA: Make sure they are who they say they are. Name, address, phone number, name of investigating officer. You get the idea.) I admire your courage and the amount of energy you are putting into this effort. You must love your son very, very much. Thanks, Luke. I'll correct that word. I knew it didn't look right, but the words were flowing, so I ignored it. The issues with attracting even more vermin needs to be dicussed. In my writings, I will make it clear that we are not going to become an agency that investigates psychic's claims. I can imagine it getting very out of hand. I will nip it in the bud by letting them know that their emails will be deleted. At the same time, I don't want to give the appearance of not being open to the possibility. This may keep fence sitters from becoming defensive towards us. That may buy time to dazzle them with logic and facts. Here's my idea on the latter: I will encourage those persons to come here and post their claims. That is, if the members here are ok with me referring them here. I would say something such as: "We understand that many people believe that psychics are effective in solving crimes and finding missing people. Please keep in mind that the goal of this series is to help families understand techniques used by persons making these claims and make better decisions about the use of psychics. Project Jason and its volunteers cannot act as a clearinghouse for persons claiming success in using paranormal means to locate missing persons. We will be unable to respond to emails or other correspondence sent to us from persons making these claims or persons offering information about or referrals to psychics. We instead invite those persons to present their evidence to the members of the James Randi Education Foundation. They have a forum available for you to discuss your claims. http://www.internationalskeptics.com...isplay.php?f=7 " Would that be acceptable to the members and the foundation?

21st February 2006, 11:42 PM	#70
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	BTW, thanks to all for the encouragement and assistance. Here's another idea that came to me that would be not only helpful to me timewise, but also would lend to the air of authority in presenting this. Would members who have previous writing/presenting experience like to be a guest writer in the series and present various debunking scenarios? For example, one person would take the category of medium and present the definition and then give an example of the methods used. Some of the example dialogs I've seen would be very effective, especially when the scripts are written with a missing person's case in mind. Thoughts? Volunteers? I can finally post links! Here's my standard signature: Kelly Jolkowski, Mother of Missing Jason Jolkowski President and Founder, Project Jason http://www.projectjason.org Read our Voice for the Missing Blog http://voice4themissing.blogspot.com/

22nd February 2006, 12:00 AM	#71
Gr8wight red-shirted crewman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,661	Originally Posted by RichardR This blog has a whole series of posts debunking Allison Dubois. Don't know if that is the sort of thing you were looking for. Kelly, Please allow me to add my welcome to the other voices speaking up. You are a truly brave and strong woman. On behalf of those less versed in critical thinking than we, I thank you. Just one note regarding the blog RichardR provided a link to. Be aware that twopercentco.com do not pull any punches, and do not censor themselves. You might want to warn anyone you refer to their site that they will likely encounter off-colour language.
	__________________ Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan

22nd February 2006, 01:49 AM	#72
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Hello Gr8wight....love the hat. Thanks for the warm welcome. I don't feel brave, really. Perhaps the roots of this are found in my rebellious teenage years. I always considered myself to be a "Rebel with a Cause". As an adult, I now get to act this out and get away with it. At least I'm not breaking any laws! I am always reminded, however, of the reason I am in this position, in which there is no humor. I do consider it a privlege to be in a position of having an effect on so many lives. It is one I do not take lightly. I noticed the language at twopercent. If I choose to use that link in the series, I will post a warning. Thanks for being sensitive to the needs of others. Kelly

22nd February 2006, 06:33 AM	#73
Scoobmaster Thinker Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 127	happening right here locally.............. Hi kellyJ! I don't post messages here as often as many others, but let me extend a welcome to the forums. I also express my deepest sympathy concerning your missing son. After following this thread for a week, I found tragic irony in a news story in my local paper about a woman who went missing 6 weeks ago. Here is the pertinent quote (emphasis added by me): "Without any fresh news from police, her family turned to a local psychic last week. Phil Jordan told them that he envisioned Madden as meeting up with two men. He told them that she may have been injured in the head or chest, but that he didn't envision her as being dead, he said on a tape recording. Jordan also pointed them to Great Bend, Pa. - a border community with New York state. This information gave them hope. One of the first tips to police was that a woman fitting Madden's description had been spotted hitchhiking in Great Bend. The family drove the streets of the small Pennsylvania community. They put up posters there and spoke to Pennsylvania State Police. But they've heard nothing, her mother and father said. The lead never panned out." Gee. I wonder why? Here is the link to the full news report: http://pressconnects.com/apps/pbcs.d...602220313/1006 Sounds all too familiar, doesn't it? The name Phil Jordan is probably all too familiar to members of the forum.
Scoobmaster Thinker Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 127

22nd February 2006, 07:06 AM	#74
elaine Killer Squirrel Killer Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 4,145	KellyJ, Thanks for starting this thread. I've referred a friend, who is a big Sylvia Brown fan, to your website and here. My hope is to show her that there is harm in what these people do. Keep up the great work!!

22nd February 2006, 07:29 AM	#75
Gr8wight red-shirted crewman Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,661	Originally Posted by KellyJ Hello Gr8wight....love the hat. Thanks for the warm welcome. Unfortunately, it is not my hat. Quote: I don't feel brave, really. I think that those we see as brave never see themselves as brave. They simply see themselves as having done what was necessary. Quote: I noticed the language at twopercent. If I choose to use that link in the series, I will post a warning. Thanks for being sensitive to the needs of others. Kelly Shhh, don't tell anyone. You'll spoil my rep.
	__________________ Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan

22nd February 2006, 10:35 AM	#76
Kelly Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Renton, WA Posts: 6,277	Oh my, Wanderin....you seem to have placed yourself on the defensive. If you recall, you pm'd me, offering your "services". I assumed you must have not really read the thread well, otherwise it would have been apparent to you that I did not want to receive solicitations of this type. I encouraged you to post a separate thread about whatever it is that you say you do for the edification of others. Instead, you came back here and launched a verbal assault. If you go back to post #38, you will see that I mentioned I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I was not unkind. However, you were. Whether or not a person wants money or does not want money has no bearing on the damage done to the psyche by individuals claiming to have knowledge of a missing person's whereabouts who do not. I do not close the door completely on such persons. I do tell them that if they think they know something, they should take that information straight to law enforcement. I let them discern if the information has any merit and act upon it accordingly. I don't know if you have children or not, and even if you don't, why don’t you imagine the person you love most in the world? Imagine that he/she is gone, and you have no idea what has happened to them. Dozens, and perhaps even hundreds of people come forward, offering their "help". They tell you all sorts of things, none of them the same as the others, and none of them ever results in finding the missing loved one. Regardless, you MUST listen to all of it, over and over again, lest you be accused of not wanting to find the missing loved one. You must listen to them tell you the most horrid things you can imagine being done to a person by another. You must listen to them telling you that your missing loved one was stabbed, beaten, and then their head was bashed in. You must listen as they tell you that your missing loved one was still alive, wimpering and asking for help as he/she drew their last breath, and no one was listening. He/she was all alone, and then the end came. All of these people who come to you offering help want you to go through something like that. How did you feel reading that? How many times would you want to hear stories like that? What do you think that does to a person? Do you think it's healthy? How is it that it is called "helping"? Nothing has ever come of it except for pain. Is pain helpful? Does pain find the missing person? Granted, this is the worst of this type of thing, but people who are not in this position have no idea of the roller coaster ride of emotions that we ride daily. We live with an ongoing trauma. Anyone in the medical field can understand what trauma does to a person mentally and physically. To add to that trauma needlessly is not a good idea. Needlessly refers to the fact that persons using paranormal means have not proven themselves useful in finding the missing person. I just don't know how much clearer I can make this. And in regards to caring, I care a great deal. If I didn’t, I wouldn't do this work while dealing with my own loss. Anyone who knows the work I have done cannnot dispute that I care. The fact that you do not understand how I can disagree with your opinion does not negate my caring. BTW, every single word written on the website and the blog are written by me unless otherwise noted. I really don't know what that has to do with anything, just as I do not understand the comment about donations. Where do you think a nonprofit gets their money? My husband and I are both working stiffs. Our family is not well off financially, so we cannot front the money to the organization to pay for the services provided. Just as with almost all small nonprofits, we depend upon the generosity of the public to help us accomplish our goals. We have no paid staff and we do not not even have an office. The only equipment owned by the organization is one phone and one laptop, which was donated. Without donations, how would we pay the phone or the website bill? How would we pay for the Personal ID Kits and other safety/prevention information we give away? How would we pay for the financial aid given to the families for visual aids, such as posters? We do not charge one penny to anyone for these services. We will not take money from the families we serve. That is wrong in our opinion. How would you propose that we pay for all of this if not through donations from generous people? I have taken a considerable amount of my time now to help you understand this, Wanderin. I hope it is helpful to you in some way. Now I ask that the thread be returned to its purpose, which is for members here to help me help the families of the missing understand the issues regarding psychics. I again encourage you to start your own thread about your methods. Thank you in advance for your consideration.