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Tags big cats , cougars , cryptozoology

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Old 26th October 2011, 07:20 AM   #361
The Shrike
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Wandering Nittany Lion looking for a quarterback...
Live by the McGloin, die by the McGloin. I'm just happy they're returning to their running back roots with Silas Redd.

Apropos of the thread btw, I visited State College a few years ago and saw the Nittany Lion mount in the library. With great care this specimen of one of the very last "eastern" cougars was restored and put on prominent display. For a little on this specimen check out Dave Bonta's humorous (though expletive-laden!) description.
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Old 28th October 2011, 07:38 AM   #362
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http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...773978.html?dr

Here we go again, this one has no video or photo to support.
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Old 28th October 2011, 09:02 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...773978.html?dr

Here we go again, this one has no video or photo to support.
There's a new one in Haddam CT this morning, an animal control officer is convinced he saw one. Haddam isn't that close to fairfield either. I'll see if there are additional details on the evening news. The witness is supposedly also an avid hunter. Most of the reports I've heard of CT sightings of cougars also come from hunters. Again details as the news gives em.
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Old 28th October 2011, 09:54 AM   #364
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http://www.theday.com/article/201110...0289943/-1/NWS

Haddam CT sighting MikeyX is talking about
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Old 31st October 2011, 11:05 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This same cougar was captured on another trailcam in Wisconsin.

DNR: Cougar moving around west-central Wisconsin

Quote:
State wildlife officials say a young cougar is apparently roaming far and wide across west-central Wisconsin.

Department of Natural Resources ecologist Adrian Wydeven says a trail camera snapped a shot of a young cougar near the town of Pray in eastern Jackson County on Oct. 20.

Agency biologists believe it's the same cat another trail camera caught on film on Oct. 16 near Mauston in Juneau County, about 42 miles from the area where the Jackson County photograph was taken. Wydeven says the cougar in both photos appears to have the same spot pattern.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 342804660-31095300.jpg (95.8 KB, 5 views)
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Old 31st October 2011, 11:50 AM   #366
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Rogue male from Connecticut.
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Old 31st October 2011, 12:08 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
Rogue male from Connecticut.
that one might have had a traffic related mishap...
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Old 31st October 2011, 01:09 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This same cougar was captured on another trailcam in Wisconsin.

DNR: Cougar moving around west-central Wisconsin
Certainly looks like the same cat. Beautiful cougar for sure. Isn't it awesome how we can follow around this lone cougar with game cam sightings and such, or lone wolverines along with DNA samples of the individual animal identifying it etc.

Sort of makes the crytpids case weaker every day. Cryptids be on a hunger strike! lol
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Old 31st October 2011, 01:45 PM   #369
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 31st October 2011, 02:07 PM   #370
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Awesome pic! Love those cams.
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Old 31st October 2011, 02:25 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Same cat? That mark on the inside right foreleg looks diagnostic.
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Old 31st October 2011, 02:35 PM   #372
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Same cat? That mark on the inside right foreleg looks diagnostic.
No. That is an older photo from Texas. It has been used to hoax cougar presence in the East.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 07:42 AM   #373
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Mountain Lion killed on a state highway just west of the OKC/Norman metro area in Oklahoma on Tuesday. Wildlife guy says it looks to be another young male.

I have it on good faith that this area west of the OKC metro is also a reliable bigfoot haunt.
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Old 3rd November 2011, 11:29 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
No. That is an older photo from Texas. It has been used to hoax cougar presence in the East.
Shush!
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 10th November 2011, 07:05 AM   #375
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Cougar confirmed in Indiana.
http://www.wlky.com/r/29706994/detail.html

Kentucky says they still don't have any confirmed cougar sightings.
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Old 10th November 2011, 12:40 PM   #376
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http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/...freezer-234879

Freezer sighting...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 10th November 2011, 01:53 PM   #377
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What kind of a nutcase freezes whole mangoes?
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Old 10th November 2011, 04:13 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
What kind of a nutcase freezes whole mangoes?
Garnishing the cougar of course.
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Old 11th November 2011, 05:14 AM   #379
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You should blanche them first.
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Old 15th November 2011, 09:53 AM   #380
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Grown men and women can't get a bead on a sasquatch, or a skunk ape, but a 15 year old kid pops a cougar at ten feet while deer hunting.

http://journalstar.com/news/state-an...513e393ad.html

Cougars were extirpated from Nebraska until 1991.
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Old 16th November 2011, 06:57 PM   #381
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Is there really a significant difference between an "eastern" cougar and a "western" one? This is why I've always felt some methods of classification were sort of hazy or possibly unneccesary.

What is the major difference between a Florida panther and a western cougar? I've seen both and they seem close enough to me. Why not "American Cougar" or "North American Cougar"?

Aren't there known populations of cougars in Eastern Canada (I honestly don't know)? When I lived in Northern VT people claimed that they saw them all the time. Called them Catamounts for some reason. I know, anecdotal evidence and all that, but I don't see any reason to doubt some could still be around. We know cougars exist, they used to be here, they still are here on an accesible part of the continent.
This doesn't fall into bigfootery, in my opinion, because the claim doesn't seem particularly outrageous. Unlikely maybe, but not outrageous.
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Old 17th November 2011, 06:29 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by ShawnC View Post
Is there really a significant difference between an "eastern" cougar and a "western" one? This is why I've always felt some methods of classification were sort of hazy or possibly unneccesary.

What is the major difference between a Florida panther and a western cougar? I've seen both and they seem close enough to me. Why not "American Cougar" or "North American Cougar"?

Aren't there known populations of cougars in Eastern Canada (I honestly don't know)? When I lived in Northern VT people claimed that they saw them all the time. Called them Catamounts for some reason. I know, anecdotal evidence and all that, but I don't see any reason to doubt some could still be around. We know cougars exist, they used to be here, they still are here on an accesible part of the continent.
This doesn't fall into bigfootery, in my opinion, because the claim doesn't seem particularly outrageous. Unlikely maybe, but not outrageous.

According to Drew with the exception of the Florida population, they are all descentants of the original South AMerican strain, while Parcher tries to hide behind semantics.

Bottom line, if Drew is correct then there's ONE population and based on the Connecticut kill, they are capable are wandering all over the place, making the basic premise of the OP nothing but BS......
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Old 17th November 2011, 07:11 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by ShawnC View Post
Is there really a significant difference between an "eastern" cougar and a "western" one? This is why I've always felt some methods of classification were sort of hazy or possibly unneccesary.

What is the major difference between a Florida panther and a western cougar? I've seen both and they seem close enough to me. Why not "American Cougar" or "North American Cougar"?<snip>.
The western cougar tends to pack a six-gun and drink rotgut. The Florida panther frequents beaches and occasionally surfs.
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Old 17th November 2011, 07:44 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by ShawnC View Post
Is there really a significant difference between an "eastern" cougar and a "western" one?

. . . When I lived in Northern VT people claimed that they saw them all the time. Called them Catamounts for some reason.

First, "cat of the mountains" becomes "cat o' mount" becomes "catamount."

Next, systematists have always delineated subspecies based on minor morphological differences associated with different portions of the larger species' range. It is very often the case (perhaps even overwhelmingly so) that those differences are only clear to specialists examining the creature in the hand, but they are there, and they do indicate a level of genetic diversity in the population of the entire species. As such, subspecies have taken on an important role in conservation biology, which seeks not only to conserve species, but to promote/protect/maintain genetic diversity within species.

If you look at the species protected as threatened or endangered under the Endangered Species Act, you'll see many examples of a subspecies listed even though the larger species is not. Florida Panther is a classic example, but even Bald Eagles fall into this category: to my knowledge, the species was never listed in Alaska where it remained common even while populations plummeted in the Lower 48.

The "Eastern" subspecies of Mountain Lion was mercilessly persecuted by settlers in the U.S., and hunted out of an enormous section of eastern North America. No specimen of this subspecies has been confirmed for decades, and the USWFS recently decided to declare it officially "extinct." That's a really thorny decision because it's impossible to prove a negative, i.e., that individuals aren't out there.

The same issue affected Ivory-billed Woodpecker, for which many wanted to see it declared extinct in 1980s, but this was right about the time one or more Ivorybills was reported in Cuba. I forget the exact tortuous path of negotiations, but as we now know the USFWS expended considerable money in search of Ivorybills in Arkansas a few years ago and still there is no confirmation that they still exist. The problem is that when a species is removed from the List, its budget goes away and can be used for some other species - many are right now "warranted [for listing] but precluded [because there is not enough money to develop a management plan]." But if a species (or subspecies) is declared extinct and some activists don't agree with the decision, they may file lawsuits that the USFWS is not doing its job to enforce the ESA and, yadda-yadda-yadda, it's a big mess. So the USFWS is generally very cautious in its decisions to declare a species extinct.

The fact that the decision came down recently to declare "Eastern" cougars extinct means that there is great confidence among experts that there are no individuals of the Eastern subspecies of cougar in existence. This does not mean that there are no cougars in the East, only that any that show up are members of other subspecies of cougar. For decades, the only confirmed cougars in the East have been released captives, and these mostly have been South American stock (the species ranges nearly to Tierra del Fuego). In recent years, there have been a handful of high-profile examples of cougars from the Western subspecies showing up in eastern states, most famously the one killed in CT over the summer.

Where cougars and "black panthers" become bigfooty is that in all those decades that experts could not find any evidence of cougars (of any kind) in the East, people kept reporting them. My mammalogy professor was a Virginian who told me back in the 1980s that he had personally investigated thousands of claims in his career (he was on some kind of investigative committee), and that not a single one provided credible evidence of the animals people claimed to see. Meanwhile, he had inspected hundreds of pawprints from Labrador retrievers and photographs of bobcats and housecats that the witnesses swore up and down were cougars.

The significance of the dead cougar in CT this summer is as follows:
*It came from a marked population in South Dakota, so we know exactly who that cougar was.
*It dispersed farther than any cougar had been confirmed to do in the past.
*It was a young male, as are almost all of these cougars that seem to be showing up in eastern states of late.
*It was confirmed multiple times along its route through diagnostic photography and other means in MN, WI, MI, NY, and ultimately CT.
*The fact that ONE individual was detected multiple times illustrates how difficult it is in 2011 for a population of any large mammal to exist "under the radar" in North America.
*Despite some high profile examples of individual cougars being detected and confirmed in portions formerly occupied by the Eastern subspecies, there is no evidence to suggest there is a breeding population of any kind of cougar anywhere in the East (other than Florida), and no evidence to suggest that any individuals of the Eastern subspecies persist today.

I hope that clears things up. It's not a question of semantics, it's just a subtle issue that requires a bit of background to provide perspective.
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Old 17th November 2011, 08:02 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
*It was a young male, as are almost all of these cougars that seem to be showing up in eastern states of late.
If you can't produce confirmation of any females in the East, please remove the "almost all" qualifier.


If cougars really did exist in the East we wouldn't have elaborate hoaxes like this...

Cougar sighting called hoax - Officials: Camera memory card likely manipulated

Quote:
After investigating a purported mountain lion sighting in the Monadnock Region last month, New Hampshire Fish and Game officials have determined it was a hoax...

The "sighting" came from a trail camera picture, and was submitted to Fish and Game for verification. For the last few weeks, Fish and Game officials worked with the person who believed his trail camera had captured an image of a mountain lion, also known as a cougar, roaming through the woods in Dublin. Officials were attempting to match the vegetation in the photograph to the actual location, but were having a hard time, since the person had difficulty remembering exactly where he'd set up the camera.

But there's no need to verify the picture now that Fish and Game officials have located the same image on a popular outdoorsman website, said Patrick Tate, a wildlife biologist for the state agency.

"We found the (same) picture on the Internet, and it was posted on Sept. 18," he said. "It was posted on the Field and Stream site for a photo contest."

Tate said the person who submitted the photo to Fish and Game believed the image was shot a short time before it was discovered, Oct. 19. But the model of the trail camera didn't match the one identified in the image, which clearly shows it was produced by a Bushnell device.

"His was not a Bushnell," Tate said.

The most likely explanation for how this occurred is that a friend played a trick on the person who submitted the picture to Fish and Game, Tate said.

"SD cards (contained in trail cameras) are storage devices," he said. "You can take it out and save pictures on in, so someone must've taken it and put the picture on the card without him knowing, then put it back in the camera."
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Old 17th November 2011, 08:04 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Spektator View Post
The western cougar tends to pack a six-gun and drink rotgut. The Florida panther frequents beaches and occasionally surfs.
Actually the florida types favor the swampy life.....
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Old 17th November 2011, 08:06 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I hope that clears things up. It's not a question of semantics, it's just a subtle issue that requires a bit of background to provide perspective.
When the differences are that subtle, you're splitting hairs and the OP remains stupid.
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Old 17th November 2011, 08:10 AM   #388
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Mikey's responses in this thread show why the Eastern Cougar is very much like Bigfoot.
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Old 17th November 2011, 08:14 AM   #389
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Connecticut Mountain Lions: The Real Story

Quote:
Here is how DEEP (Department of Energy and Environmental Protection) Commissioner Paul Esty put it after genetic tests traced the Milford, Connecticut lion to its western origin:

"The confirmation of a wild mountain lion in our state was the first recorded evidence in more than 100 years," Esty said. "This is the first evidence of a mountain lion making its way to Connecticut from western states."

He then qualified his statement by adding, "There is still no evidence indicating there is a native population of mountain lions in Connecticut."

He was correct. A single documented animal, or even several, do not a native breeding population make, to paraphrase Esty's qualification. In the absolute, a native species is one with a viable interacting population. In other words, one that procreates where it lives.

"If we had a small resident population of mountain lions it would be easy to document," says DEEP wildlife biologist Paul Rego, whom the agency calls upon to answer questions about the species. He notes that DEEP receives many reports but, the Milford lion excepted, no confirmations. On the other hand, he adds, "There are many negative confirmations."
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Old 17th November 2011, 08:37 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If you can't produce confirmation of any females in the East, please remove the "almost all" qualifier.
How's this?


*It was a young male. To my knowledge, no females of the Western subspecies have been confirmed in states that formerly defined the range of the Eastern subspecies.
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Old 17th November 2011, 09:52 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
noone is saying it was native, because there aren't subspecies....
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Old 17th November 2011, 10:24 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
According to Drew with the exception of the Florida population, they are all descentants of the original South AMerican strain, while Parcher tries to hide behind semantics.

Bottom line, if Drew is correct then there's ONE population and based on the Connecticut kill, they are capable are wandering all over the place, making the basic premise of the OP nothing but BS......
Try reading the papers I link for you. Then you would look like you have mastered the concept of learning.
http://www.coryi.org/Florida_panther...can%20puma.pdf

Quote:
Recent studies have demonstrated a high level of genetic similarity among the North American cougar populations, suggesting that they are all fairly recent descendants of a small ancestral group. Culver et al. suggest that the original North American population of Puma concolor was extirpated during the Pleistocene extinctions some 10,000 years ago, when other large mammals such as Smilodon also disappeared. North America was then repopulated by a group of South American cougars.[17]
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Old 17th November 2011, 05:27 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I hope that clears things up. It's not a question of semantics, it's just a subtle issue that requires a bit of background to provide perspective.
It clears a lot up, thanks. Although I still think some sub species classification are probably unneccesary. What is the minor morphological difference between an eastern cougar and western cougar that makes it more significant than the difference between a Maine black bear and a California one? Mostly a rhetorical question. I am pretty convinced that there is no breeding population of cougars on the east coast (barring Florida).
Now, since we have seen at least one long distance wandering cougar, might it be concievable that at least some sightings are similar occurences?

Hey, shoot me, I'm an optimist.
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Old 18th November 2011, 08:51 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by ShawnC View Post
Now, since we have seen at least one long distance wandering cougar, might it be concievable that at least some sightings are similar occurences?
Yes, it's conceivable, but if you look at the examples that have cropped up in recent years, these cats have a funny way of ending up dead and/or clearly photographed and then dead. Look back through this thread and see how many times that one cat that died in CT was detected along his dispersal route. When cougars occur in areas with roads and traffic, they end up dead on those roads - they're not yet that good at evading us in urbanizing landscapes. So the lack of cougar roadkill in the East for the past several decades is actually strong evidence that they haven't been here.

One of the (if not the) biggest threat to Florida panthers is highway collision. There are little pockets of wilderness in the eastern U.S. where cougars could potentially hang out for a while undetected, but those areas tend to support a fraction of the deer that more developed areas do. From those game cam photos showing cougars in the East it seems obvious that the cats are using areas where they can readily find deer. That's putting the cats in places with higher road densities and more traffic than where they occur across most of their range in the West. Cougars + roads = roadkilled cougars. Some recent roadkills illustrate that Western cougars are beginning now to disperse to former areas of the Eastern cougar's range; the lack of that roadkill for decades indicates that they haven't been overlooked here in the interim.

Note: There have been some cougars confirmed in the East down through the years. Most (all?) of those confirmed before, say, 2000(?) showed evidence of having been captive animals that were released, rather than relics of the original "Eastern" subspecies or dispersers from the West. To date, we have no evidence that there is a breeding population of cougars anywhere in the eastern U.S. outside of peninsular Florida.
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Old 18th November 2011, 04:49 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Try reading the papers I link for you. Then you would look like you have mastered the concept of learning.
http://www.coryi.org/Florida_panther...can%20puma.pdf
I was going by your point to make the point. I simply dont buy the government findings and it's that simple. The conduct of Parcher in this thread at several points is dubious enough that I'm pretty much done with it.
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Old 18th November 2011, 05:19 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
So the lack of cougar roadkill in the East for the past several decades is actually strong evidence that they haven't been here.
I am going to reiterate what has already been stated in this thread. There is no confirmatory evidence of any wild cougars living in the East no matter what their origin. That includes local escapees or pet releases, breeding populations or individuals. None of the above are confirmed by any means legitimately possible. This not only would include evidence from roadkill; but also there are no confirmed tracks, scat, trailcam photos, etc.

The question or issue of subspecies validation or ultimate origin is besides the point of this thread. Long ago, there used to be cougars living and breeding in the Eastern States but that came to an end many decades ago. People claim that they have always remained there, and others claim that they are there but that their specific origin might not be from ancestral residence (instead pet escape or release or Western wanderer). But nonetheless, these folk claims have no responsible legitimacy because there is no confirmatory evidence behind the claims in spite of the efforts of local authorities who routinely follow-up reports with investigations.

The "Connecticut Cougar" showed that authorities do indeed work (often in collaboration) towards confirming (with national press releases) the presence of cougars in the East whenever they do identifiably and legitimately occur.
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Old 18th November 2011, 05:32 PM   #397
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Be it Bigfoot or Eastern Cougars... grab a cocktail and a keyboard and rant on the web about the clueless govenment and the naysayers who stupidly proclaim that these fantasy creatures are not really out there in the woods.
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Old 18th November 2011, 06:05 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I am going to reiterate what has already been stated in this thread. There is no confirmatory evidence of any wild cougars living in the East no matter what their origin. That includes local escapees or pet releases, breeding populations or individuals. None of the above are confirmed by any means legitimately possible. This not only would include evidence from roadkill; but also there are no confirmed tracks, scat, trailcam photos, etc.

The question or issue of subspecies validation or ultimate origin is besides the point of this thread. Long ago, there used to be cougars living and breeding in the Eastern States but that came to an end many decades ago. People claim that they have always remained there, and others claim that they are there but that their specific origin might not be from ancestral residence (instead pet escape or release or Western wanderer). But nonetheless, these folk claims have no responsible legitimacy because there is no confirmatory evidence behind the claims in spite of the efforts of local authorities who routinely follow-up reports with investigations.

The "Connecticut Cougar" showed that authorities do indeed work (often in collaboration) towards confirming (with national press releases) the presence of cougars in the East whenever they do identifiably and legitimately occur.
Dead cougar from south dakota found in Connecticut, it was here so no sale. You are dancing around semantics and why some take you as some kind of expert is beyond me.

Some used to do the same with the Michigan crew on the old BFF and when put to the microscope they failed, badly.

Last edited by mikeyx; 18th November 2011 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 18th November 2011, 06:07 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Be it Bigfoot or Eastern Cougars... grab a cocktail and a keyboard and rant on the web about the clueless govenment and the naysayers who stupidly proclaim that these fantasy creatures are not really out there in the woods.
so fantastic they got hit one on the highway in fairfield county. Good luck with that.
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Old 18th November 2011, 06:53 PM   #400
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Mikey, the dead CT cougar works against the "cougars are living in the East" claim, not for it.
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