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Tags big cats , cougars , cryptozoology

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Old 6th March 2011, 02:15 PM   #41
leonAzul
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
I wonder how cougars cross the Mississippi river?
On the backs of the coyotes, I reckon.
http://www.njskylands.com/ecocoyotes.htm
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Old 7th March 2011, 12:45 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
Originally Posted by quarky View Post
I wonder how cougars cross the Mississippi river?
again, oversimplification as a dodge.


What the devil is your problem? It seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me.

How does one "oversimplify" a question about how cougars get across a bloody great river?

What exactly is it that you believe quarky is dodging?


In any case it seems that the question was perfectly valid, and answered quite nicely by WP:


Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There are a number of possible ways.

Swim
Cross on a bridge
Cross on ice

However, the river does act as a natural barrier. You can see this by looking at the cougar map...


Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
Im saying that you dont need to make the case for a native Eastern population, they can migrate from elsewhere, and they have. They are here. Deal with it.


Or what?


Again, I have to ask, what is your problem? Why so much emotion about a simple wildlife question?
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Old 7th March 2011, 05:09 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
There are missing aircraft nobody has ever found.

So there are still Duck-billed Platypus and Eastern Cougar, passenger pigeon, and etc. all over the place.
Your reasoning is awful. In addition, the Platypus is reasonably common, though due to their habits not often seen by the layperson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus
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Old 7th March 2011, 07:19 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
Im saying that you dont need to make the case for a native Eastern population, they can migrate from elsewhere, and they have. They are here. Deal with it.
Are you saying the Western population of cougars has managed to establish a breeding population in the EAST, despite the Mississippi river's presence as an insurmountable obstacle?

Have the cougars managed to come down through Michigan's upper peninsula, through Detroit, Ann Arbor, Cleveland, Toledo, across the Ohio River, and into the mountains of W. Virginia, Kentucky, and the Carolinas, establish a breeding population, without the benefit of females?

I think you are oversimplifying. Parcher is using common sense, you are basically saying "POOF, there are cougars in the east"
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Old 7th March 2011, 07:20 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Your reasoning is awful. In addition, the Platypus is reasonably common, though due to their habits not often seen by the layperson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus
ABP has already stipulated that he was misinformed about the platypus.
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Old 7th March 2011, 09:06 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
In any case it seems that the question was perfectly valid, and answered quite nicely by WP:
Yes, I also am puzzled by all the emotion about this. And I totally get how one could have cougars in the east that aren't Eastern cougars.

But I'm especially curious about the little dot on the map in southwestern Illinois. While the isolated dots in other places like mountainous WV and so forth might be remnant populations, possible escapes that established a breeding population, deliberate attempts to establish a population or something oddball like that, that Illinois dot looks like a natural expansion of territory, except it's on the other side of the Mississippi.

Looks like it's legit, too: "In Illinois, a cougar was killed by a train in 2000 near Chester, about 60 miles southeast of St. Louis."

Is there anything in that area which would make it easy for cougars to get across? An isolated bridge in a wooded area, a couple islands to break up the swim, something like that?
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Old 7th March 2011, 09:20 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Pup View Post
Yes, I also am puzzled by all the emotion about this. And I totally get how one could have cougars in the east that aren't Eastern cougars.

But I'm especially curious about the little dot on the map in southwestern Illinois. While the isolated dots in other places like mountainous WV and so forth might be remnant populations, possible escapes that established a breeding population, deliberate attempts to establish a population or something oddball like that, that Illinois dot looks like a natural expansion of territory, except it's on the other side of the Mississippi.

Looks like it's legit, too: "In Illinois, a cougar was killed by a train in 2000 near Chester, about 60 miles southeast of St. Louis."

Is there anything in that area which would make it easy for cougars to get across? An isolated bridge in a wooded area, a couple islands to break up the swim, something like that?
My quip upstream about the the coyotes actually has some relevance to the thread. Territorial expansion has been observed for some species from the western US northward to Canada, then eastward, and then southward again, thus circumventing the natural barrier that the Mississippi River forms.
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Old 7th March 2011, 09:41 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It wouldn't be, and presently isn't, roadkill or hunting - it's lack of females. There is a distinct differential in dispersion away from established breeding populations based on gender. Females don't wander/roam.
"Presently" I'd agree with you. Looking ahead, I can't see why females wouldn't also eventually disperse eastward, though at a slower rate than those pioneering young males.
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Old 7th March 2011, 10:39 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
What the devil is your problem? It seems like a perfectly reasonable question to me.

How does one "oversimplify" a question about how cougars get across a bloody great river?

What exactly is it that you believe quarky is dodging?


In any case it seems that the question was perfectly valid, and answered quite nicely by WP:








Or what?


Again, I have to ask, what is your problem? Why so much emotion about a simple wildlife question?
Thank you for defending what's left of my honor. I am touched.

gosh and shucks,

quarky
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Old 7th March 2011, 05:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Your reasoning is awful. In addition, the Platypus is reasonably common, though due to their habits not often seen by the layperson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus
The Appalachian Platypus and the Alaskan Platypus, however, have been extinct for some time. ABP was probably thinking of one of those species.
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Old 7th March 2011, 08:54 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Your reasoning is awful. In addition, the Platypus is reasonably common, though due to their habits not often seen by the layperson.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platypus
The platypus has the brain of a dolphin
and can be seen driving a forklift in his habitat of kelp
He is the larva of the flatworm
and has the ability to regenerate after injury

No relation to the flounder.
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Old 7th March 2011, 09:28 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
The Appalachian Platypus and the Alaskan Platypus, however, have been extinct for some time. ABP was probably thinking of one of those species.



Appalachian Platypus (Ornithorhynchus whathefficus)
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Old 7th March 2011, 09:40 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Akhenaten View Post
http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/Hos...f/CrocoPus.jpg
Appalachian Platypus (Ornithorhynchus whathefficus)
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Old 8th March 2011, 03:42 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by leonAzul View Post

Thank you
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Old 8th March 2011, 09:02 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by quarky View Post
I wonder how cougars cross the Mississippi river?

In addition to the ways already mentioned,

in cages, on trucks.

And then they outsmart the stupid monkeys and escape.
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Old 8th March 2011, 09:03 AM   #56
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We're always told of the risks of animals facing extinction, so I'm wondering, when should I expect the ecosystem of the USA to collapse?
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Old 8th March 2011, 11:15 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by bobdroege7 View Post
In addition to the ways already mentioned,

in cages, on trucks.

And then they outsmart the stupid monkeys and escape.
or they follow game north and east, who cares? They are getting here.
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Old 8th March 2011, 08:52 PM   #58
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Quote:
The eastern cougar phenomenon has too often lacked a basis of scientific inquiry. Michael Shermer (1997) points out some of the pitfalls of a non-scientific approach that characterize much of the eastern puma controversy:

Anecdotes, unverified stories recounted in support of a claim, do not make science. Corroborative/supportive evidence from other sources, physical proof, or controlled experiments are needed to support the hypothesis that a population of eastern pumas still exists.

Rumors do not equal reality. The number of alleged puma photographs and emails circulating the internet do not prove that a populations exists (most have been proven hoaxes).

Scientific language does not make a science. Papers written in scientific format, but based on unconfirmed puma occurrences or poor methodology do not prove the existence of pumas in eastern North America.

Bold statements do not make claims true. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinarily well-tested the evidence must be.

Burden of proof. The person making the extraordinary claim has the burden of proving to the experts and to the community at large that his or her belief has more validity than almost everyone else accepts. The burden of proof is on those claiming that a puma population still exists in eastern North America to provide solid scientific evidence in support of their claims.

Failures are rationalized. In science, negative findings are just as important as positive findings. If a population of pumas exists, there should be ample evidence (tracks, scat, animals killed, trapped). Surveys have failed to produce this evidence.

Representativeness. Aristotle said, “The sum of the coincidences equals certainty.” Our tendency is to remember promising evidence (e.g., a puma kitten was killed in Kentucky), but ignore the details (the kitten had South American genes).

Ad ignorantiam. The argument that if you cannot prove something does not exist, then it must exist. In science, belief should come from positive evidence in support of a claim, not lack of evidence for or against the claim.

Hasty generalization. Conclusions are drawn before the facts warrant it. A puma killed in Pennsylvania in 1967 does not prove that a remnant population exists.

Credo consolans. People maintain unrealistic ideas because these ideas maintain a sense of mystery in an increasingly industrialized, predictable, scientific world. The existence of a puma population provides hope that nature can heal itself from our past transgressions.

Communal reinforcement. When claims become beliefs through repeated assertions by members of a community or when the media provide tacit support for untested and unsupported claims by providing no skepticism about even the most outlandish claims.
From USFWS 5-year Review on Eastern Cougar.
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Old 8th March 2011, 09:25 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yeah, but you know scientists are paid by the states, and the states don"t want to admit they exist, so of course they aren't going to admit they exist.
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Old 8th March 2011, 09:53 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Yeah, but you know scientists are paid by the states, and the states don"t want to admit they exist, so of course they aren't going to admit they exist.
Who are they, and how would you react if I showed them to you?
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Old 8th March 2011, 10:51 PM   #61
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This is for the recently-declared-extinct Eastern Cougar, but I think some of it can be applied to Bigfoot belief. From Page 40 of the USFWS review. I think it's interesting that a government report cites (false) cultural beliefs and uses Michael Shermer quotes (Why People Believe Weird Things) adapted to the topic (my previous post)...


Quote:
Weidensaul (2002) discussed the phenomenon of why so many people claim to see eastern pumas and why there has been so much public interest in their possible return to eastern North America: "The idea [of pumas being present] is incredibly seductive – the notion that these gentle mountains, long settled and so badly misused by people for centuries, could have reclaimed such a potent symbol of wilderness as the mountain lion. Sometimes, I think, we need to believe such things even when the evidence (or its absence) suggests we are deluding ourselves. Deep down in our overcivilized hearts, we need the world to be bigger, and more mysterious, and more exciting than it appears to be in the cold light of day – especially in this age, when the planet shrinks daily and no place seems truly remote or unknown. We're unwilling to accept that there isn't more to the world than what we can see." Butz espoused that the multitude of puma sightings represented "wishful thinking, or that peculiar human desire to bear witness to something nobody else has seen before."

Both Weidensaul (2002) and Butz (2005) hypothesized that humans by nature are a hopeful, optimistic species and that the belief that pumas still haunt the East "adds luster to an ever-dimmer planet." At the heart of the eastern puma controversy and debate is hope – hope that past environmental transgressions did not eliminate the puma, and if it is gone, hope that against odds it is making a comeback to its former habitats in eastern North America. "The more dramatic, colorful, or formidable an animals is – the longer shadow it casts upon its environment and the bigger psychic hole left by its absence – the less likely we are to accept its loss, and the more apt we are to keep hunting and hoping, even when the evidence is pretty grim" (Weidensaul 2002). Bass (1995) said (of grizzlies in Colorado, but it applies equally well to pumas in the East), "there is a place in our hearts for them, and so it is possible to believe they still exist, if only because that space of longing exists." "The eastern cougar is less a concrete, biological organism than it is a talisman, a totem of wilderness to which people can pin a lot of their dreams… of all the lost species that may haunt the globe, few have the evocative power of these ghost cats. More than for almost any other extinct animal, people want to believe – maybe even need to believe – that big cats still linger on the wild margins of their urbanized world" (Weidensaul 2002).
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Old 8th March 2011, 11:00 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This is for the recently-declared-extinct Eastern Cougar, but I think some of it can be applied to Bigfoot belief. From Page 40 of the USFWS review. I think it's interesting that a government report cites (false) cultural beliefs and uses Michael Shermer quotes (Why People Believe Weird Things) adapted to the topic (my previous post)...
tl;dr

coyotes and pumas and bears; oh my
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:20 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by leonAzul View Post
tl;dr

coyotes and pumas and bears; oh my
Sarcasm duly noted, so you contend also that there are no Coyotes or Bears in the Northeast? The last time I saw the range of the North American Black Bear, it wasn't quite accurate. It gets a little further south, so do Moose.

To Parcher, nevermind I saw Cougar in upstate NY, (I know, burden of proof blah blah blah), you doubt the presence of Moose in the SOuthern NE? I'll just throw that out there for my own curiosity.

Hell, Coyotes and Black Bears, how far south ya figure?
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:48 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
To Parcher, nevermind I saw Cougar in upstate NY, (I know, burden of proof blah blah blah), you doubt the presence of Moose in the SOuthern NE? I'll just throw that out there for my own curiosity.

Was your cougar in the same area that you saw your Bigfoot?

You want to know if I think moose are living in Connecticut, or what?
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:52 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Was your cougar in the same area that you saw your Bigfoot?

You want to know if I think moose are living in Connecticut, or what?
No it was further north but bot were in the Adirondacks. The question about Moose et al, just asking because the other poster brought uo bears and coyotes. I thought I'd throw them in there to for ha has.
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:53 AM   #66
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The moose is there. The Eastern Cougar is extinct.


Quote:
Connecticut Moose Facts

The first sighting of a moose cow with calves in Connecticut was reported in 2000 in Hartland. Between 2000 and 2007, at least 40 calves were born in the state (this number only includes reported sightings by the public). In addition, other moose likely were born in Connecticut or dispersed into the state from Massachusetts.

Since 2000, cows with calves have been reported in 10 different towns (Hartland, New Hartford, Granby, Colebrook, Goshen, Barkhamsted, Union, Winchester, Eastford, and Enfield).

Over the past 17 years, moose sightings increased from an average of 4 per year in the mid-1990s to 69 in 2007.

Based on sightings by the public and deer hunters from 2000 to 2004, Connecticut’s moose population in 2004 was estimated at 63. Without any population management, it will increase 15% in 1 year and 91% in 5 years.

Young moose that disperse into new territories during spring have been documented to travel 5-10 miles per day, sometimes traveling as far as 100 miles over a 5-week period, passing through a dozen towns.
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:54 AM   #67
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Why would anyone doubt the existence of moose in Southern New england? There are documented sightings of moose there.
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:56 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
...just asking because the other poster brought uo bears and coyotes.

But you have no idea what the context of that comment was.
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:56 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
To Parcher, nevermind I saw Cougar in upstate NY, (I know, burden of proof blah blah blah), you doubt the presence of Moose in the SOuthern NE? I'll just throw that out there for my own curiosity.
???
The claim is not that there are no cougars in the east (there are), the claim is that the specific subspecies Puma concolor couguar is extinct.

Quote:
“We recognize that many people have seen cougars in the wild within the historical range of the eastern cougar,” said the Service’s Northeast Region Chief of Endangered Species Martin Miller. “However, we believe those cougars are not the eastern cougar subspecies. We found no information to support the existence of the eastern cougar.”
source
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:58 AM   #70
mikeyx
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
But you have no idea what the context of that comment was.
I asked for the sake of asking, context be damned Parcher, just answer the bloody question.
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Old 9th March 2011, 09:59 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by roger View Post
???
The claim is not that there are no cougars in the east (there are), the claim is that the specific subspecies Puma concolor couguar is extinct.

source
And I am not defending the EASTERN cougar, as you say, I merely say there are cougars in the east, because there are.
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Old 9th March 2011, 10:00 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by roger View Post
???
The claim is not that there are no cougars in the east (there are), the claim is that the specific subspecies Puma concolor couguar is extinct.

source
Yes Roger, we have been saying that throughout the thread. There is a romanticism displayed in defending the existence of the P. concolor couguar, by some, that seems to be evident when discussing this subject however.
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Old 9th March 2011, 10:03 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by JAStewart View Post
We're always told of the risks of animals facing extinction, so I'm wondering, when should I expect the ecosystem of the USA to collapse?
In Captain Kirk voice: It... already... has... ARRRGGHH!!

http://easterncougar.org/CougarNews/?p=3284
Quote:
“The potential collapse of our restored deciduous forests is the biggest underreported ecological crisis developing in the eastern third of the country,” said Christopher Spatz, president of the Cougar Rewilding Foundation. “Step into your nearest woodlot, state or national forest. Notice the deer browse-line five-feet high, the missing seedlings and saplings, the carpets of ferns and invasive weeds that suppress tree-growth. Our forests are standing graveyards.”
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Old 9th March 2011, 10:05 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
And I am not defending the EASTERN cougar, as you say, I merely say there are cougars in the east, because there are.
Who is disputing that in this thread (I read your comment as implying somebody thought there were not cougars in the east)? I admit to being a bit at sea here - people seem to be dragging in old conflicts from bigfoot threads, and I neither know the players or their positions (I don't read, and am not interested in those threads, or people's perceived baggage).
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Last edited by roger; 9th March 2011 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 9th March 2011, 10:18 AM   #75
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This new designation (Eastern Cougar extinct) is on a Federal level. Individual states can designate, legislate or protect the hypothetical Eastern Cougar as they see fit.

For example, the state of New York still protects the Eastern Cougar with their own Endangered Species Act. But that is not to say that state officials would say that there are any there.

Originally Posted by USFWS
The (New York) State Department of Environmental Protection considers the species to be extirpated, but it is protected by the State ESA.
There is no modern confirmatory evidence that any cougars are living in New York.

Originally Posted by USFWS 5-year review
New York, 1975 Puma shot by State Police in Catskills; escaped from zoo.

New York, ca. 1975 Puma escaped from Animal Land in Lake George; shot by sheriff.

New York, ca. 1975 Puma escaped in Northway; shot by police?

New York, 31 December 1993 Kitten shot by a hunter near Sacandaga Reservoir in Saratoga County; 7.5 pounds emaciated; South American genetic origin.
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Last edited by William Parcher; 9th March 2011 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 9th March 2011, 12:50 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
Sarcasm duly noted, so you contend also that there are no Coyotes or Bears in the Northeast?
Quite the contrary. It's so bloody obvious that it's more remarkable when somebody makes a controversy about it.
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Old 9th March 2011, 02:08 PM   #77
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We are seeing a general rejection of the USFWS conclusion and review by many Bigfoot believers. I think they are doing this on principle.

The conclusion that Eastern Cougars are extinct is a lot like proving a negative, or reaching a decision based on a negative. The review basically says that if Eastern Cougars still existed - we would have definitive evidence to show for it. That reasoning can be applied to Bigfoot as well.

Eastern Cougars were essentially exterminated by people in various ways. In the process of this we did not produce any Bigfoot evidence that would confirm their existence. Countless hunters shot cougars over centuries and yet never bagged a Bigfoot.

Many of the methods employed to try to establish the presence of Eastern Cougars would have also established the presence of Bigfoot. No cougars found and no Bigfoots found.

It's no surprise that many Bigfooters refer to this review as wrong and worthless.
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Old 9th March 2011, 04:03 PM   #78
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How does one tell the difference between a western and eastern cougar?
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Old 9th March 2011, 04:27 PM   #79
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The Eastern will appear lifeless and stiff. Like this...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg eastern-cougar-extinct.jpg (64.3 KB, 3 views)
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Old 9th March 2011, 04:48 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by River View Post
How does one tell the difference between a western and eastern cougar?
Exactly. The cougar controversy that pits the eyewitness accounts of private citizens against official declarations of state and federal wildlife officials is barely tangential to the announcement that the eastern subspecies is extinct.

When Billy Bob calls his local ranger to report that he just saw a cougar cross the road and the ranger answers with "the eastern cougar is extinct," that's a non-sequitur. The ranger's response does not address Billy Bob's report: What Billy Bob hears is "You didn't see a cougar." Enmity ensues.

This controversy is about communications more than it's about cougars.
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