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Tags big cats , cougars , cryptozoology

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Old 3rd August 2011, 08:37 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
So do you now want to drop your earlier argument?
What's incorrect about that statement?

Did I say it was an Eastern Cougar? No I did not.

I said we now have proof that a cougar was living in the Eastern United States. It walked from the Dakotas and was hit by a car in Connecticut. Even if it were just a solitary animal and there are no others, it was still living in the Eastern United States.

How is that incorrect?

I get the impression that you guys think that I'm trying to pull some kind of backdoor trick to get you to admit there are Eastern Cougars.

I'm not. I'll say it AGAIN - there are no Eastern Cougars. They are extinct and have been for decades.

Happy?
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Old 3rd August 2011, 08:53 AM   #242
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Your argument didn't specify that wild cougars in the East are "Eastern Cougars", and that is not what I'm asking you about. But here it is again...

Originally Posted by Bigfooter
The bottom line is that we now have proof that big cats exist in the Eastern United States outside of Florida.
The dead Connecticut cougar is proof of what again?
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Old 3rd August 2011, 03:34 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Your argument didn't specify that wild cougars in the East are "Eastern Cougars", and that is not what I'm asking you about. But here it is again...



The dead Connecticut cougar is proof of what again?
Its proof that there was a cougar in CT, not that was breeding there but it WAS there, and it werent south american.

Drew was wrong, period
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Old 3rd August 2011, 03:52 PM   #244
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Don't ascribe arguments to me that I did not make. I clearly have shown that I said wanderers from the west or from Florida would make up some of the cougars found in the east. I even quoted myself saying it in this thread, now stop lying about my argument.
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Old 4th August 2011, 08:42 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
All north american cougars disappeared at one point. Then wanderers from S. America reestablished cougars in N. America. All N. American cougars came from this S. American flow.
?

To my knowledge, cougars were never extirpated from the western U.S.


In other news, here's a quote from the Thompson and Jenks (2010) paper I referenced upthread.

"Dispersal of cougars originating in the Black Hills provide evidence that recolonization of cougars is occurring and is further substantiated by increased verified cougar sightings throughout midwestern, southern, and eastern North Amer- ica (Cougar Network 2007, Beier 2010). For example, North Dakota recently documented their first breeding cougar population in the western badlands region of the state since the 1800s (NDGFD 2007). Although subadult male cougars make most recolonizing movements, female cougars also have dispersed into former cougar ranges. Dispersal of female cougars, especially in a population on the edge of cougar range, constitutes true range expansion and recolonization of the species to former habitats."

Also from that paper, nearly half of the subadult male cougars they tracked dispersed > 250 km, though not all went east from their natal home ranges. Still, it's clear that a slow expansion of cougar distribution is occurring, with re-colonization of former range. But we don't even have "recolonization" in Minnesota yet - it's going to be a long time before Connecticut truly regains its cougars.
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Old 4th August 2011, 12:07 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
?

To my knowledge, cougars were never extirpated from the western U.S.


In other news, here's a quote from the Thompson and Jenks (2010) paper I referenced upthread.

"Dispersal of cougars originating in the Black Hills provide evidence that recolonization of cougars is occurring and is further substantiated by increased verified cougar sightings throughout midwestern, southern, and eastern North Amer- ica (Cougar Network 2007, Beier 2010). For example, North Dakota recently documented their first breeding cougar population in the western badlands region of the state since the 1800s (NDGFD 2007). Although subadult male cougars make most recolonizing movements, female cougars also have dispersed into former cougar ranges. Dispersal of female cougars, especially in a population on the edge of cougar range, constitutes true range expansion and recolonization of the species to former habitats."

Also from that paper, nearly half of the subadult male cougars they tracked dispersed > 250 km, though not all went east from their natal home ranges. Still, it's clear that a slow expansion of cougar distribution is occurring, with re-colonization of former range. But we don't even have "recolonization" in Minnesota yet - it's going to be a long time before Connecticut truly regains its cougars.
Yet Drew has the continuing misfortune of getting caught in an erroneous blanket statement and then getting his panties in a bunch when someone calls him on it. The Shrike just nailed, you said ALL cougars were of south american descent, ******** and you know it.

You might find it easier just to admit you were wrong, but I guess not.
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Old 5th August 2011, 11:54 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Still, it's clear that a slow expansion of cougar distribution is occurring, with re-colonization of former range. But we don't even have "recolonization" in Minnesota yet - it's going to be a long time before Connecticut truly regains its cougars.

Predicted to be one hundred years just to get to the Adirondacks...


Will Cougars Return to the Adirondacks?


Quote:
The news that a mountain lion killed on a Connecticut highway had migrated more than 1,500 miles from South Dakota raises an intriguing question: could the cats return to the Adirondacks someday?

The short answer: "someday" is a long way off.

Christopher Spatz, president of the Cougar Rewilding Foundation, said it took twenty years for cougars from the South Dakota's Black Hills to establish a small population (thirteen adults) in the Nebraska panhandle—just 120 miles away.

"It might take them forty years to get to Minnesota," he said. "If you project that eastward, you're talking a century before they get to the Adirondacks."
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Old 5th August 2011, 12:45 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Predicted to be one hundred years just to get to the Adirondacks...


Will Cougars Return to the Adirondacks?
Thats good news in my eyes. Some people may not agree with my sentiment. I'm happy to see their range increasing.
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Old 5th August 2011, 01:27 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by River View Post
Thats good news in my eyes.
Which part, that they'll return or that it'll take 100 years?
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Old 5th August 2011, 01:33 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Which part, that they'll return or that it'll take 100 years?
The funny part, that you take one guy's opinion as fact so long as it supports your own, Parcher to. In that regard what seperates you from the footers, nothing........... opinion as fact so long as it agrees with yours, what complete ********.
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Old 5th August 2011, 02:08 PM   #251
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Where did he say he took it as fact? He was just quoting the article.

I know there have been cougars in Minnesota in recent times and I can back that with documentation but I don't know for a fact there is even one breeding pair here, even though there have been stories of such in the western suburbs of Minneapolis, or how long it will take before there is a breeding population if ever.
I'm a hunter and knowing there was one within a few miles of one of my hunting areas in 2007 at the same tiome I was there makes my morning and nighttime hikes in and out of my hunting area a little more scary exciting but I'm not going get too excited about a few transient males as long as they keep on moving....all the way to Connecticut. You can have all you want.
I have nothing against cougars but I don't want to have a stare down with one while walking down a trail.

Comparing Parcher quoting an article to bigfooter romanticism is a straw man and a complete brain burp IMHO. You come off as obssesed about this whole thing which is more like bigfooter behavior than quoting an article.
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Old 5th August 2011, 02:53 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
The funny part, that you take one guy's opinion as fact so long as it supports your own, Parcher to. In that regard what seperates you from the footers, nothing........... opinion as fact so long as it agrees with yours, what complete ********.
What the Sam Hill are you on about?
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Old 5th August 2011, 05:23 PM   #253
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The close genetic proximity of NA cougars suggests they came from a small group of cougars. Culver in 2000; suggested that cougars in NA were extirpated around 10k yrs ago. they were then repopulated by a small grp of SA cougars.

In other words the genetics do not reflect a million yrs of isolation.
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Old 5th August 2011, 06:49 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The close genetic proximity of NA cougars suggests they came from a small group of cougars. Culver in 2000; suggested that cougars in NA were extirpated around 10k yrs ago. they were then repopulated by a small grp of SA cougars.

In other words the genetics do not reflect a million yrs of isolation.
You made a blanket statement about south american cougars and have been proven wrong. Just deal with it.
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Old 6th August 2011, 03:09 AM   #255
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No, I cited the author and the year of the report, something you have never done. Look up the paper, it is footnote 17 on the cougar wiki page.

Let Shrike tell me I'm wrong after he looks it up, but you don't get to tell me I'm wrong, you are an emotional person who wouldnt look up the paper before declaring such things
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Old 6th August 2011, 08:44 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
You made a blanket statement about south american cougars and have been proven wrong. Just deal with it.
You can't seem to deal with it.

I've reviewed all of Drew's posts here and on the BFF. In all instances he says that cougars found in the wild in the East will be either Western migrants, escaped or released pets with South American lineage, or Florida migrants (Florida Panther). Repeatedly he says that they are either Western migrants or pets (SA). His main point has always been that these cougars are not "Eastern Cougars" which the government has declared already extinct. They make this claim because there is a complete lack of functional evidence to support that they are not extinct.

You have stated that they have been "there" for a long time and have explicitly stated that there is a breeding population in Upstate New York. Your obvious implication is that the government (both Federal and States) is incorrect in claiming that the "Eastern Cougar" went extinct. But you have nothing to back your position other than personal opinions and anecdotes.

As usual, you have little to offer other than mean-spirited obstinacy and trolling.
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Old 6th August 2011, 12:03 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
No, I cited the author and the year of the report, something you have never done. Look up the paper, it is footnote 17 on the cougar wiki page.

Let Shrike tell me I'm wrong after he looks it up, but you don't get to tell me I'm wrong, you are an emotional person who wouldnt look up the paper before declaring such things
nope you cited a blanket statement as fact, and you know it. Parcher's knowitallism is not even relevant
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Old 6th August 2011, 12:20 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You can't seem to deal with it.

I've reviewed all of Drew's posts here and on the BFF. In all instances he says that cougars found in the wild in the East will be either Western migrants, escaped or released pets with South American lineage, or Florida migrants (Florida Panther). Repeatedly he says that they are either Western migrants or pets (SA). His main point has always been that these cougars are not "Eastern Cougars" which the government has declared already extinct. They make this claim because there is a complete lack of functional evidence to support that they are not extinct.

You have stated that they have been "there" for a long time and have explicitly stated that there is a breeding population in Upstate New York. Your obvious implication is that the government (both Federal and States) is incorrect in claiming that the "Eastern Cougar" went extinct. But you have nothing to back your position other than personal opinions and anecdotes.

As usual, you have little to offer other than mean-spirited obstinacy and trolling.
And you and drew make dogmatic blanket statements, and insult people by pointing out that they're footers so they dont know squat and then cry troll. The sad thing is Parcher not everyone thinks you're the genius you think you are. You post opinion as fact as that is just sad.

The troll is you, and you are on ignore.

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Old 7th August 2011, 04:00 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The close genetic proximity of NA cougars suggests they came from a small group of cougars. Culver in 2000; suggested that cougars in NA were extirpated around 10k yrs ago. they were then repopulated by a small grp of SA cougars.
Ah, my bad Drewbot. I assumed in your earlier post that you were implying that American settlers wiped out all North American cougars but they repopulated the West from Mexico. Now I see you are referring to a genetic bottleneck from the Pleistocene, which is very cool. Cougars would've dispersed to South America from North America initially. It's neat to contemplate that original North American population getting wiped out only to be "rescued" by immigrants from South America. That's actually a great illustration of why conservation biologists stress the importance of protecting rare species everywhere they occur.

Anyway mikeyx, I'm afraid you'll be needing to put me on "ignore" as well, 'cause Drewbot was clearly above-board with his comments about the likely origin of cougars that have been reported in the Eastern U.S. I'm not sure how you can make the bald-faced claim that he rejected the "dispersers from the Western U.S." hypothesis when it's right here in the thread for anyone to see.
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Old 8th August 2011, 05:05 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Ah, my bad Drewbot. I assumed in your earlier post that you were implying that American settlers wiped out all North American cougars but they repopulated the West from Mexico. Now I see you are referring to a genetic bottleneck from the Pleistocene, which is very cool. Cougars would've dispersed to South America from North America initially. It's neat to contemplate that original North American population getting wiped out only to be "rescued" by immigrants from South America. That's actually a great illustration of why conservation biologists stress the importance of protecting rare species everywhere they occur.

Anyway mikeyx, I'm afraid you'll be needing to put me on "ignore" as well, 'cause Drewbot was clearly above-board with his comments about the likely origin of cougars that have been reported in the Eastern U.S. I'm not sure how you can make the bald-faced claim that he rejected the "dispersers from the Western U.S." hypothesis when it's right here in the thread for anyone to see.
Nope, I have been open to the possibility of a small population breeding here, I never said it was huge, even if it's a few migrators doing it, it's still a possibility. I dont think its an absolute just a possibility, needless to say though they are physically here that has been proven.

To Drew's dishonesty, if you read his commentary over time, they are ALL south american pet stock in his mind, and he has not proven that. Parcher points to one study, while employing hos normal tactics, poiting out the other side of the discussion are footers as a veiled insult, and then when he is pointed out for so he screams troll. Who really is the troll, he is. Thats why he is on ignore. It doesn't make me wrong to be open to the possibility rather to cling to dogma.

William might want to realize the earth isn't flat as well.
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Old 8th August 2011, 05:16 AM   #261
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I have neighbors who swear they saw a cougar recently, but have no pictures.

I have seen pictures, but they look a lot like an artifact of light, leaves and shadow that makes a cougar-like image. If you squint.

We have many excellent wildlife photographers in the area, and good pix of many animals, but no good cougar pix.

So I say this situation has a lot in common with bigfoot. Not exactly the same, since we do know that cougars did exist, and they still might, but the sightings remind me a lot of bigfoot believers.
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Old 8th August 2011, 07:11 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
Nope, I have been open to the possibility of a small population breeding here, I never said it was huge,
I'm open to that possibility too, but the evidence doesn't support this being the case. Therefore, the responsible and evidence-based opinion is that (other than in peninsular Florida) there are no populations of cougars breeding any farther east than the current eastern edge of the species' distribution in the Dakotas.

Nice people claiming to see cougars in recent decades in the eastern U.S. have time and again been shown to be mistaken. For the small number of cases in which a real, live cougar has been confirmed, most of those animals have apparently been escaped/released captives, i.e., not natural immigrants from the West. If Drew's comments "over time" (irrelevant to this thread, btw) have emphasized those released animals as the source of confirmed cougars in the Eastern U.S., then the data support his opinion. Regardless, he clearly stated in this thread that immigrants from the West are to be included in the realm of potential explanations for cougars confirmed in the East.
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Old 8th August 2011, 06:08 PM   #263
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Statistically cougar sightings west of the Miss. River are mistakes or stories, the problem for wildlife officials, is that they are a real animal, and a statistically insignificant number of true reports(the escaped SA pets or the western/FL wanderers) makes these officials have to chase down many more reports than are neccessary.
Thanks be to Crom that they know bigfoot isn't real or they'd be chasing down all of those 'sightings' as well.
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Old 8th August 2011, 06:55 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Statistically cougar sightings west of the Miss. River are mistakes or stories, the problem for wildlife officials, is that they are a real animal, and a statistically insignificant number of true reports(the escaped SA pets or the western/FL wanderers) makes these officials have to chase down many more reports than are neccessary.
Thanks be to Crom that they know bigfoot isn't real or they'd be chasing down all of those 'sightings' as well.
spin it any way you want, your stance was only for escaped pets, which is crap
you're spinning it cuz the CT cougar was wanderer and didnt fit you blanket dismissal. Just like every BF report was a guy in a suit, couldn't possibly be a misidentification or something else. The problem isnt that you dismiss its that your dismissal is sloppy. You like opinion as if it were fact.
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Old 8th August 2011, 09:32 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Which part, that they'll return or that it'll take 100 years?
Their return of course!
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Old 11th August 2011, 11:30 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Your argument didn't specify that wild cougars in the East are "Eastern Cougars", and that is not what I'm asking you about. But here it is again...



The dead Connecticut cougar is proof of what again?
That there was a cougar living in the Eastern United States.

Could you explain how that isn't accurate rather than just asking questions continually.
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Old 11th August 2011, 11:54 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
That there was a cougar living in the Eastern United States.

Could you explain how that isn't accurate rather than just asking questions continually.
It's like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Here it is again...

Originally Posted by Bigfooter
The bottom line is that we now have proof that big cats exist in the Eastern United States outside of Florida.
Note that you have used "big cats" which is plural and "exist" which is present tense. This is a kind of semantic trojan horse. The single wandering cougar which was killed is now serving as an example (you say proof) of others presently living in the East which have not been killed. But there is no functional evidence of any others. Just this one which got dead. This one is not proof of others.

It's accurate to say that one wandering cougar existed for a relatively short period of time in the East before getting killed. It's not accurate to extend that to others for which there is no good evidence let alone proof.

Here is your statement corrected for accuracy...

"The bottom line is that we now have proof that a big cat wandered over from the Badlands and existed in the Eastern United States outside of Florida."
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Old 11th August 2011, 06:29 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Here it is again...



Note that you have used "big cats" which is plural and "exist" which is present tense. This is a kind of semantic trojan horse. The single wandering cougar which was killed is now serving as an example (you say proof) of others presently living in the East which have not been killed. But there is no functional evidence of any others. Just this one which got dead. This one is not proof of others.

It's accurate to say that one wandering cougar existed for a relatively short period of time in the East before getting killed. It's not accurate to extend that to others for which there is no good evidence let alone proof.

Here is your statement corrected for accuracy...

"The bottom line is that we now have proof that a big cat wandered over from the Badlands and existed in the Eastern United States outside of Florida."
You're merely arguing semantics at this point. Yawn.
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Old 11th August 2011, 07:06 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Bigfooter View Post
That there was a cougar living in the Eastern United States.

Could you explain how that isn't accurate rather than just asking questions continually.
Was that cougar living in every county it walked through on it's way to it's demise?

If it had walked south and died in Mexico, what sort of cougar would it have been and where would it have lived?
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 11th August 2011, 07:31 PM   #270
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Incidentally, there are new reports...

http://www.courant.com/community/gre...,2187802.story
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 12th August 2011, 10:09 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It's like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Here it is again...



Note that you have used "big cats" which is plural and "exist" which is present tense. This is a kind of semantic trojan horse. The single wandering cougar which was killed is now serving as an example (you say proof) of others presently living in the East which have not been killed. But there is no functional evidence of any others. Just this one which got dead. This one is not proof of others.

It's accurate to say that one wandering cougar existed for a relatively short period of time in the East before getting killed. It's not accurate to extend that to others for which there is no good evidence let alone proof.

Here is your statement corrected for accuracy...

"The bottom line is that we now have proof that a big cat wandered over from the Badlands and existed in the Eastern United States outside of Florida."
A prior Parcher dodge from questions asked by Dinwar, I believe

{quote][Post 98]
Author : William Parcher
Date : 11th March 2011 01:37 AM

Got any specifics on the highlighted stuff?

Ooopsie. Another one who didn't read the report.

Your arguments are a waste of time. Biological and ecology sciences seem to be your enemy.

The Eastern Cougar is gone.
The Eastern Cougar is extinct.
The Eastern Cougar is extirpated.[/quote]


They asked legit questions and all Billy can do is dismiss and dodge or cry troll. Ironically he started the thread was the whole thread a troll?

Hmm............
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Old 12th August 2011, 11:06 AM   #272
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Quote:
The Eastern Cougar is gone.
The Eastern Cougar is extinct.
The Eastern Cougar is extirpated
truth.
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Old 12th August 2011, 11:10 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
truth.
You don't get a vote. If all cougars from the period predating man have orginated from SA, then the point is moot. YOU declared all of them in the east to be escaped pets, and now attempt to spin, you are deceitful, mr bot, if that is your real name.

You have a pesky ahbit of declaring opinions and absolutes as truth
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Old 12th August 2011, 11:24 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by mikeyx View Post
YOU declared all of them in the east to be escaped pets,
No, he didn't. He very clearly demonstrated after your challenge that he included western cougars among the possible origin of cougars documented in the eastern U.S. Your repeated assertions to the contrary - even after you were shown your error - are mind-boggling.
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Old 12th August 2011, 11:27 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
No, he didn't. He very clearly demonstrated after your challenge that he included western cougars among the possible origin of cougars documented in the eastern U.S. Your repeated assertions to the contrary - even after you were shown your error - are mind-boggling.
No whats sad is that if SA Cougars are the great forebearers to ALL cougars in North America this entire thread is stupid, he is however a liar.
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Old 12th August 2011, 11:38 AM   #276
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I'm sorry, but in the spirit of "you don't get a vote", I can only conclude from your behavior in this thread that you're unable or unwilling to engage in rational discourse.
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Old 12th August 2011, 11:40 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I'm sorry, but in the spirit of "you don't get a vote", I can only conclude from your behavior in this thread that you're unable or unwilling to engage in rational discourse.
I said a while back the argument has devolved into stupidity, the reason is above. Now its just twits arguing semantics while pretending they're, insinuating I'm crazy for that is also a dodge.
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Old 12th August 2011, 03:47 PM   #278
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Pretending? really?
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Old 12th August 2011, 07:06 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Pretending? really?
You no, you have been flat out deceitful, you were pushing escaped pets and then changed your toon. You're on ignore for good reason.
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Old 20th August 2011, 08:38 AM   #280
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The Connecticut cougar was also confirmed in Lake George, New York by tracks, hair and DNA.

Wild cougar passed through Lake George

Quote:
Cindy Eggleston spotted a cougar in her backyard in the town of Lake George the night of December 16. The next morning, her husband, David Eggleston, who is a retired DEC colonel, and Environmental Conservation Officer Louis Gerrain followed the animal's tracks through the snow and collected hair samples from what appeared to be a bedding site.

DNA analysis of the hairs indicated that they came from the same cougar that was killed by a car on a highway in Milford, Connecticut, on June 11. Previously, DNA tests of the Connecticut cougar showed that it was the same cougar that had been tracked in Minnesota and Wisconsin and that it came from a breeding population in the Black Hills of South Dakota...

DEC maintains that cougars were extirpated from the Adirondacks in the nineteenth century, though some people contend that a remnant population continues to dwell in the region. (DEC biologist Kevin) Hynes argues that the fact that the animal was observed and tracked–not only in New York but in other states–is evidence against the existence of a remnant population.

"If we had a number of mountain lions living in the Adirondacks or the Catskills, they certainly would be detected over time," he said.

Hynes added that Eggleston's may be the first sighting of a wild cougar in New York State since the late 1800s. A cougar kitten was shot and killed in Saratoga County in 1993, but tests indicated that it had been a captive animal of South American origin.
This is the kind of confirmatory evidence that is available when real cougars are present. We have nothing like this for any other cougars in the East.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg cougar-track.jpg (13.6 KB, 1 views)
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