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Old 18th January 2018, 10:55 AM   #41
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
The homeopathic labeling on Zicam means it has a much lower standard of regulation than things actually sold as medicine, even though it has actual active ingredients.

When it was first released, it was found to have high enough levels of zinc to cause damage to the nasal passages, possibly including loss of the sense of smell:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765727/
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Coldand...ory?id=7853178
https://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/n...ays-loss-smell
Ah, I didn't even know Coldeeze was labeled as homeopathic. It does however seem to have some effect according to reputable sources. I thought Homeopathic meant stuff diluted down until it's basically water. I've never used the stuff BTW but I know people who swear by it, that aren't into woo
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Old 18th January 2018, 11:04 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Ah, I didn't even know Coldeeze was labeled as homeopathic. It does however seem to have some effect according to reputable sources. I thought Homeopathic meant stuff diluted down until it's basically water. I've never used the stuff BTW but I know people who swear by it, that aren't into woo
Well, homeopathy is basically the belief that diluting a substance makes it stronger (the substance used to be one that caused the symptoms to be treated, but has moved on to "provings"). But homeopathy includes 1x, 2x, and so on dilutions (with equate to 1:10, 1:100, etc ratios).

The ones below 6C (IIIRC, that's 1:1,000,000,000,000) may contain actual ingredients. The X series and low C's may contain significant amounts of active ingredients.

Zicam is labeled as a 1X and 2X of a couple zinc compounds:
https://www.target.com/p/zicam-quick...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 18th January 2018, 11:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
The homeopathic labeling on Zicam means it has a much lower standard of regulation than things actually sold as medicine, even though it has actual active ingredients.
And that's the ONLY reason it's labeled that way. It's not pharmacists who should be ashamed, it's the US Congress.
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Old 18th January 2018, 11:58 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Is there a difference?

'contains no significant amount of anything but sugar or water' is practically a working definition of homeopathic preparations.
Yes, I know. What I was trying to say is that a lot of stuff sold in the US as "homeopathic" actually does contain significant amounts of real ingredients (but is not subjected to the rigorous requirements to prove safety and effectiveness that drugs have to meet).
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Old 18th January 2018, 12:18 PM   #45
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The only homeopathic remedy that has an effect is a product that is labeled homeopathic, but actually isn't - a homeopathic remedy should have no active ingredients present, as homeopathic remedies are diluted to a degree that there's nothing left.

I've heard of it happening that some products actually do have some active ingredient, and they can, of course, be dangerous - loss of the sense of smell is a severe impairment. I certainly wouldn't put any product that I had not researched in my nose.

I'm very glad that I haven't seen any homeopathic products in pharmacies in Finland - looking it up, apparently there ARE pharmacies that do sell homeopathic products, but they are pretty few and far between. The line of pharmacies I mostly use (and that is the most famous probably) "Yliopiston Apteekki" ("University Pharmacy"), tends to be pretty science based. No homeopathy there!
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Old 18th January 2018, 12:27 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Swordfishtrombone View Post
The only homeopathic remedy that has an effect is a product that is labeled homeopathic, but actually isn't - a homeopathic remedy should have no active ingredients present, as homeopathic remedies are diluted to a degree that there's nothing left.
Not true; see above. This is only true at about 6C dilutions of higher. The X preparations and the low C ones will have active ingredient.

It's homeopathic if it's based on homeopathic principles: dilution and similarity.
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Old 18th January 2018, 02:21 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by kali1137 View Post
I always wonder why people are so quick to attack the selling of cigarettes but not that they sell alcohol.

You don't have to tell me. I haven't had a sip of alcohol in decades. The total sum of human misery that accompanies that poison is horrifying.
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Old 18th January 2018, 02:35 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
You don't have to tell me. I haven't had a sip of alcohol in decades. The total sum of human misery that accompanies that poison is horrifying.
Truth. I'm an alcoholic, it can devastate your body as well as the lives of others.

It astounds me that people still vehemently oppose the legalization of marijuana. The propaganda from the 30s through the 70s is so absurd.

I have close friends who get violent when they drink too much, yet say "think if young kids smoked marijuana all the time." That circular logic is a rubber band tensed at it's strongest.
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Old 18th January 2018, 03:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The pharmacy stores in my area also sell board games for kids that kids will not enjoy, makeup products that will not make anyone using them more beautiful, greeting cards that belittle rather than celebrate the recipient and/or the intended occasion of the greeting, magazines full of recipes that few buyers will actually attempt and for those few will not come out looking like the picture on the cover, lottery tickets that deepen buyers' impoverishment, and snacks and soft drinks that will enhance rather than ameliorate ones craving for snacks and soft drinks.

But except for these few minor exceptions, they're just filling prescriptions for people who are ill, right?
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Old 18th January 2018, 04:09 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe the pharmacist is selling the homeopathics as a way of generating extra income to put his kids through college. But homeopathy is a scam and he should make extra money in other ways. He could just double the prices of his prescription medications. That would work.
In this country, the charges for prescription medicines are subject to goverment control.
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Old 18th January 2018, 05:24 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
By Law, all pharmacies in New Zealand must be owned by pharmacists.
Out of curiosity, is this basically a professional carteling thing? (ie: intended to protect pharmacists' profits by restricting ease of entry into the marketplace, rather than protecting any public interest?)
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Old 18th January 2018, 07:50 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In this country, the charges for prescription medicines are subject to goverment control.

Well, it looks like your PM missed a dose.
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Old 18th January 2018, 08:16 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
... They haven't ever sold them in NZ. Also, cigarettes aren't in any way unscientific - they work fine, as life expectancy of smokers shows quite neatly.
Selling a product that right on the label says it's bad for you is not the same as selling one that claims it treats illness it doesn't treat.

Different issues.
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Old 18th January 2018, 08:34 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
According to the rules of homeopathy, 1X means 10%. Which is far from what's usually considered homeopathic.
I don't think that means what you think it means, surely not 10% zinc. 10% of what? And one of the products was a higher X, 2 or 10X I don't remember. When I asked the pharmacist did that mean diluted more? We had a, 'can't believe they sell this crap', discussion. He agreed but it was not his choice to sell it. I'm sure if it was 10% zinc the pharmacist would have had some information on that.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Zicam's nasal spray had to be removed from the market because it contained so much zinc people were permanently losing their sense of smell....
Well it was still on the market last month.

I recall that issue with the zinc and the sense of smell before. I doubt it was a homeopathy product at that time or maybe the offending product wasn't Zicam (but I could be wrong.)

There used to be all sorts of zinc lozenges on the market. I had to hunt and hunt to find any lozenges except these homeopathy products. Probably the smell issue side effect had something to do with that.
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Old 18th January 2018, 08:46 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
None of those products have any confirmed amount of zinc in them.

From the study:
Quote:
CONCLUSION:
Zinc gluconate in the form and dosage studied significantly reduced the duration of symptoms of the common cold. The mechanism of action of this substance in treating the common cold remains unknown. Individual patients must decide whether the possible beneficial effects of zinc gluconate on cold symptoms outweigh the possible adverse effects.
So I set out to find zinc gluconate. At first I found Zicam and Coldeze and read the labels. It wasn't until I asked the pharmacist what 1X translated into that he pointed out the homeopathy label I had missed.

I finally found zinc acetate lozenges at the third pharmacy I checked, and no gluconate. So the only zinc lozenge product there was at Bartell's and Walgreen's were the homeopathy products.

As for the Emergen-C, it's like Airborne, high doses of vitamin C which have been shown time and time again to have no effect on colds, prevention or treatment.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:17 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I probably couldn't have helped but speak out.
Ah, but saying something would have cost me $1000, so it was fairly easy not to. I'd rather make money out of the dumb cow than take the piss.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe the pharmacist is selling the homeopathics as a way of generating extra income to put his kids through college.
In NZ, with tightly controlled systems and high government subsidies, that wouldn't be necessary.

As far as I can work out there's actually not much money in the homeopathic products, but they draw in customers that would otherwise go to a herbal shop.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Selling a product that right on the label says it's bad for you is not the same as selling one that claims it treats illness it doesn't treat.

Different issues.
That's what I was trying to point out.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:51 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
...
That's what I was trying to point out.
Yes, I was agreeing with you.
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Old 18th January 2018, 11:51 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Out of curiosity, is this basically a professional carteling thing? (ie: intended to protect pharmacists' profits by restricting ease of entry into the marketplace, rather than protecting any public interest?)
Pretty sure its that you have to be a pharmacist to dispense restricted medicines in the same way that you have to be a doctor to practice medicine....
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Old 19th January 2018, 01:40 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, I was agreeing with you.
I hope you got prior permission for that - yellow card offence, agreeing with me.
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Old 19th January 2018, 02:09 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes but most people expect pharmacies to sell stuff that works. A pharmacy selling homeopathic products gives an impression of legitimacy.
It's called mainstreaming. Same thing that social media is doing for crazy people. And it does lead to this:

- I was prescribed a worthless homeopathic remedy by the local public health clinic. By the attending physician. No mention of any real medication on the market for the specific condition was made.
- I checked out the remedy at the local pharmacy and Woo Emporium, and sure enough, worthless, but I was consistently assured by the non-pharmacist, standing behind the pharmacist's counter, that it was "really nice."
- I found the proper medical treatment online, and was able to purchase it over the counter, when it should be strictly controlled.

In some countries, pharmacies are also the first line of defense, as patients with a pressing need come to find rapid symptomatic relief, often getting their "prescription" directly from the salesperson on duty. (I'll bet that is by far the most common scenario for a great many Americans.) Under such conditions, consumers are vulnerable, with their defenses low.

For the zombie libertarians and other loose cannon:
But hey, predatory business practices quite intentionally designed to exploit should not be regulated! TruFreedom requires no limits be placed on snake oil, by gumption, even if it kills ya. The deaths will make the free market shift to a new demand and supply equilibrium, is all. That is how free markets, free of OMG, regulation, work freely!! Aren't you happy? I said "free" three times, so it must be right. Simple. Real simple. Thank God GOP virtues are solidly based on the golden rule calf.
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Old 19th January 2018, 11:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Pretty sure its that you have to be a pharmacist to dispense restricted medicines in the same way that you have to be a doctor to practice medicine....
The legislation is different: it's saying the store has to be majority owned by a pharmacist, regardless of who's minding the store.

Just as comparison: in Canada, the pharmacies have to hire pharmacists, but they don't have to be owned by pharmacists. So, we have, for example, Safeway pharmacies in the grocery stores, staffed by pharmacists, but Safeway is an international conglomerate widely held by non-pharmacist shareowners.
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Old 19th January 2018, 02:10 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
The legislation is different: it's saying the store has to be majority owned by a pharmacist, regardless of who's minding the store.

Just as comparison: in Canada, the pharmacies have to hire pharmacists, but they don't have to be owned by pharmacists. So, we have, for example, Safeway pharmacies in the grocery stores, staffed by pharmacists, but Safeway is an international conglomerate widely held by non-pharmacist shareowners.
It's pretty much the same in the US. Many pharmacies are either in supermarkets or big stores like Walmart or Target. There are also "drug store" chains like Walgreens, that have pharmacies but also sell OTC drugs, and often supplements or homoepathic stuff, as well as many other items.

The actual pharmacy, where you go to get prescriptions filled, will have a pharmacist on duty, as well as pharmacy technicians, who will be the people doing most of the customer contact and actually putting pills in bottles, under the supervision of the pharmacist(s). There may be some "corner drug stores" (independently owned) owned by pharmacists, but I suspect even most of these (and there aren't all that many still around) are owned by business people and hire pharmacists. Most of this type of store will also sell OTC medicines and probably supplements and homeopathic remedies, and maybe other items.
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Old 19th January 2018, 02:35 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Most of this type of store will also sell OTC medicines and probably supplements and homeopathic remedies, and maybe other items.
I asked a friend who is a pharmacist about the percentage of pharmacies in Canada that are majority owned by actual pharmacists, and he said they're pretty few and far between because the corporate stores are just so price competitive. They buy quantities three orders of magnitude higher than a sole operator would, for a start. And they pay less overhead rent, being just a kiosk in the main store. And less overhead cost for logistics like HR.

He told me that most of the sole proprietor pharmacies are what are called compounding pharmacies, and they specialize in making their own products from the raw active ingredients.

I've actually used a compounding pharmacy that was owned by the pharmacist himself, and yeah, I remember it looked like a budget operation. We used his services to get a cat medication mixed into a chicken paste so she'd take it orally with a syringe.


ETA: 'she' being the cat. Not the pharmacist.
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Old 21st January 2018, 05:32 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
It's called mainstreaming. Same thing that social media is doing for crazy people. And it does lead to this:

...

In some countries, pharmacies are also the first line of defense, as patients with a pressing need come to find rapid symptomatic relief, often getting their "prescription" directly from the salesperson on duty. (I'll bet that is by far the most common scenario for a great many Americans.) Under such conditions, consumers are vulnerable, with their defenses low.
Bingo.

In NZ, the government pays for advertising campaigns to use pharmacies more. "The health professional you see most often" was one of them, with the idea that people with mild to moderate illness should go to see a pharmacist first, to help ease pressure on our absurdly poorly performing and underfunded health system.
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Old 21st January 2018, 05:36 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I hope you got prior permission for that - yellow card offence, agreeing with me.
Sorry, you lost me.
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Old 21st January 2018, 08:10 PM   #66
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SG, I think it was a joke.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:45 AM   #67
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It was. Looks like it fell flat.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 10:47 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Bingo.

In NZ, the government pays for advertising campaigns to use pharmacies more. "The health professional you see most often" was one of them, with the idea that people with mild to moderate illness should go to see a pharmacist first, to help ease pressure on our absurdly poorly performing and underfunded health system.
That's interesting. Can pharmacists prescribe medication, in NZ?
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Old 23rd January 2018, 11:54 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And that's the ONLY reason it's labeled that way. It's not pharmacists who should be ashamed, it's the US Congress.
But really trying to make them feel shame is like trying to make a cat feel shame.
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Old 23rd January 2018, 11:58 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think that means what you think it means, surely not 10% zinc. 10% of what? And one of the products was a higher X, 2 or 10X I don't remember. When I asked the pharmacist did that mean diluted more? We had a, 'can't believe they sell this crap', discussion. He agreed but it was not his choice to sell it. I'm sure if it was 10% zinc the pharmacist would have had some information on that.
Of what ever the original mother was. So no real way of knowing what the concentration is, but it is claiming to have been diluted from the mother tincture by 10-1.

Well it was still on the market last month. 1x means it is passing itself off as homeopathy for the loose regulations, but has some real active ingredients left.
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Old 24th January 2018, 11:51 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's interesting. Can pharmacists prescribe medication, in NZ?
Yes, but only a very limited list of drugs. Asthma drugs, for instance - no antibiotics, antidepressants, etc.
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Old 25th January 2018, 12:06 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yes, but only a very limited list of drugs. Asthma drugs, for instance - no antibiotics, antidepressants, etc.
Same in Australia. We have stopped across the counter supply of codeine based pain relievers, but pharamists can prescribe them. I don't think they charge for this service.
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Old 25th January 2018, 12:40 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of what ever the original mother was. So no real way of knowing what the concentration is, but it is claiming to have been diluted from the mother tincture by 10-1.

Well it was still on the market last month. 1x means it is passing itself off as homeopathy for the loose regulations, but has some real active ingredients left.
It's claiming meaningless gobbledygook. It makes no difference whatsoever what homeopathy is supposed to be, not like that would be any better. This is commercial crap, no one regulates it, someone makes money. Guess what that results in?

There are tons of supplements which don't have inside what the labels claim. It's been shown again and again when the products are tested. NO REGULATIONS. We know what happens. But all these people who support the no regulation talking point ignore the evidence, people cheat when they can.

No everyone, there are honest humans out there. But not when it comes to these supplements.

Of course I also can't be sure the zinc acetate lozenges I ended up buying have any zinc acetate in them either. But with the homeopathy it's guaranteed there ain't any zinc in there.
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Old 25th January 2018, 12:44 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yes, but only a very limited list of drugs. Asthma drugs, for instance - no antibiotics, antidepressants, etc.
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Same in Australia. We have stopped across the counter supply of codeine based pain relievers, but pharamists can prescribe them. I don't think they charge for this service.
In the US pharmacists have full prescriptive authority (or at least they do in WA state), but they are reluctant to use it, except they've taken up marketing vaccinations. And they will authorize some refills for regular patients who didn't get a refill from the provider in time.
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Old 25th January 2018, 06:32 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
In the US pharmacists have full prescriptive authority (or at least they do in WA state), but they are reluctant to use it, except they've taken up marketing vaccinations. And they will authorize some refills for regular patients who didn't get a refill from the provider in time.
Pharmacists in most every state I've been in also have full prescriptive authority. I used to work for a pharmacist's registry (temporary pharmacists for rent) owned by a Pharmacist, and in the 30 some odd states we operated in, Pharmacists had the authority. My experience with these pharmacists is why I check every prescription I get, and don't ask them any questions that can't be answered on the insert, as many tend to be... well... out there [points to left field]. I imagine there are some fine pharmacists also.
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Old 25th January 2018, 04:21 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Same in Australia. We have stopped across the counter supply of codeine based pain relievers, but pharamists can prescribe them. I don't think they charge for this service.
Only until 1 Feb 2018.
From then on it is prescription only by "...their GP or other health professional with prescribing authority.".
Pharmacists no longer have that prescribing authority wrt codeine.
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Old 25th January 2018, 04:42 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Only until 1 Feb 2018.
From then on it is prescription only by "...their GP or other health professional with prescribing authority.".
Pharmacists no longer have that prescribing authority wrt codeine.
That's not how I read the AMA press release. In fact it looks like they are urging the government not to allow pharmacists to prescribe codeine. I heard a Pharmacy Guild spokesperson on radio saying that pharmacists would be able to continue to prescribe codeine. I'll do a bit more research.
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Old 25th January 2018, 05:06 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
That's not how I read the AMA press release. In fact it looks like they are urging the government not to allow pharmacists to prescribe codeine. I heard a Pharmacy Guild spokesperson on radio saying that pharmacists would be able to continue to prescribe codeine. I'll do a bit more research.
Aus Gov Therapeutic Goods Administration - Codeine information hub seems to be the best resource?

Certainly the pharmacists are all butt hurt about it, but they don't make the regulations. I think the TGA is the agency that does?

ETA : It appears that codeine and medicines containing codeine have been redesignated as Schedule 4 by all States and Territories. They were Schedule 2 and/or 3 before this rescheduling.

Schedule 1 Not currently in use
Schedule 2 Pharmacy Medicine
Schedule 3 Pharmacist Only Medicine
Schedule 4 Prescription Only Medicine OR Prescription Animal Remedy

From what I can see, Prescription Only Medicine excludes Pharmacists from being able to prescribe,
"...You need a doctor's prescription to buy prescription medicines from a pharmacist. Otherwise, only authorised health care professionals can supply them, such as in a hospital setting."
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Old 1st February 2018, 08:17 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Oh, and in the USA, labeling laws are so weak that you can call any damn thing "homeopathic" and get away with it. Zicam has a 1X concentration of one zinc compound and 1C of another. That's 10% and 1%, respectively.
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
The homeopathic labeling on Zicam means it has a much lower standard of regulation than things actually sold as medicine, even though it has actual active ingredients.

It's worse than that, even. Thanks to a powerful amount of money, and a powerful amount of support from the religious right and looney left, the "natural health" industry has managed to avoid all but the most minimal, token regulations.

As an example, I ran across a homeopathic "Hangover Remedy" product in one of the local chain pharmacies, and out of curiosity I read the label. The "active" ingredient was listed as one of those ridiculous-sounding latinate names with a dilution so high that the original component, if any, was non-existent. So it shouldn't have had any effect. But... under "inactive" ingredients it listed "activated charcoal", and a rather substantial amount of it. The bulk of the product was activated charcoal. So while it wouldn't do much for a headache, it would have proven moderately efficacious at calming an upset stomach (and turning poop black).

So because of lax regulation, it was allowed to list a pharmacologically-active ingredient as "inactive", and claim that the effect was due to the homeopathic ingredient. And this is the case with a lot of so-called "homeopathic" remedies.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I don't think that means what you think it means, surely not 10% zinc. 10% of what?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Of what ever the original mother was. So no real way of knowing what the concentration is, but it is claiming to have been diluted from the mother tincture by 10-1.

And that is another great part of the problem. There's no way to know what the actual dilution of the actual ingredient is, if one even exists. All homeopathic remedies ostensibly start with a "mother tincture", which is the substance that is then diluted to make the "remedy". The kicker is that the "mother tincture" can be literally anything, from a 1:1 dilution of a pure active ingredient such as zinc gluconate, up to and including plain water or alcohol. Some "mother tinctures" are nothing more than water that has been "activated" by having even a single drop of a substance added, having some inert substance briefly dipped in it, or having a substance of some sort nearby the bottle of pure water or alcohol, which is shaken in a ritual manner, which supposedly enables it to "take on the nature" of the substance nearby.

So a "mother tincture" can range from toxic levels of some drug or toxin, to nothing but pure water or alcohol. Which means that the dilution ratios for many substances in the X or low C range have no reliable meaning at all; and anything over 6C is effectively water anyway.
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Old 1st February 2018, 01:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Some "mother tinctures" are nothing more than water that has been "activated" by having even a single drop of a substance added, having some inert substance briefly dipped in it, or having a substance of some sort nearby the bottle of pure water or alcohol, which is shaken in a ritual manner, which supposedly enables it to "take on the nature" of the substance nearby.
My personal favourite is tincture of moonlight, created by leaving a jar of water exposed to moonlight for a few minutes.
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