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Old 6th June 2016, 07:13 PM   #1
Jules Galen
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A Piece of the Action...

A young man who attended Stanford gets jail sentence for raping COED who was passed-out drunk. Father of the young man says in a letter to the court, "This is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action..."

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/inde...entencing.html
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Old 6th June 2016, 07:29 PM   #2
JimOfAllTrades
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
A young man who attended Stanford gets jail sentence for raping COED who was passed-out drunk. Father of the young man says in a letter to the court, "This is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action..."

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/inde...entencing.html
While the wording is incredibly unfortunate (to the point that you almost have to wonder if the father is actually that stupid), the full quote from the article is ď"This is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action out of his 20 plus years of life." My impression on reading this was that that the father was saying ďfor 20 minutes of acting on this bad decisionĒ as opposed to ďfor 20 minutes of sexĒ.

That said, however, this kid got off way too easy in my opinion. There appears no question he raped the girl while she was passed out. Six months is a slap on the wrist. However he will have to register as a sex offender. Thatís something.
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Old 6th June 2016, 09:03 PM   #3
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That letter makes me sick. It's a perpetuation of the unfortunate standard of rape culture in the United States these days; that because the perpetrator is young, bright, has a good future, or has a relatively rare skillset (i.e. his swimming) that it should somehow excuse him. WRONG. He raped this girl. She was blackout drunk and therefore legally incapable of giving any form of consent. I have absolutely no sympathy for Brock Turner, and indeed I would be... well, not happy, because I don't think anyone should be raped, but I would almost feel like he got his just desserts if he were raped in prison just so he would know what it feels like to have his body violated. I don't advocate anything like that happening, understand, but my visceral, instinctive reaction to hearing news like that would be, I have to admit, "well, now he knows what it feels like when someone violates you without consent." Doubt it will happen though.

Setting my disgust for Brock himself aside, I cannot believe that Brock Turner's father wrote such a sickening letter. What if it had been his daughter who got so drunk she literally passed out and had some guy on top of her humping her and sticking his dirty fingers in her vagina? It's fairly clear that man has no daughters or he would never have written such a vomit-inducing letter.

The rape victim wrote what is, in my opinion, a far more powerful letter that was read at Turner's sentencing hearing, and I have to wonder just how steeped in white privilege that judge was to not let this sway his decision to only sentence Turner to six months in prison. The entire text is on Buzzfeed; excerpt below:

Quote:
Your Honor, if it is all right, for the majority of this statement I would like to address the defendant directly.

You donít know me, but youíve been inside me, and thatís why weíre here today.

On January 17th, 2015, it was a quiet Saturday night at home... I planned to stay at home by myself, watch some TV and read, while she went to a party with her friends. Then, I decided it was my only night with her, I had nothing better to do, so why not, thereís a dumb party ten minutes from my house, I would go, dance like a fool, and embarrass my younger sister... I made silly faces, let my guard down, and drank liquor too fast not factoring in that my tolerance had significantly lowered since college.

The next thing I remember I was in a gurney in a hallway. I had dried blood and bandages on the backs of my hands and elbow. I thought maybe I had fallen and was in an admin office on campus. I was very calm and wondering where my sister was. A deputy explained I had been assaulted. I still remained calm, assured he was speaking to the wrong person. I knew no one at this party. When I was finally allowed to use the restroom, I pulled down the hospital pants they had given me, went to pull down my underwear, and felt nothing. I still remember the feeling of my hands touching my skin and grabbing nothing. I looked down and there was nothing. The thin piece of fabric, the only thing between my vagina and anything else, was missing and everything inside me was silenced. I still donít have words for that feeling. In order to keep breathing, I thought maybe the policemen used scissors to cut them off for evidence.

Then, I felt pine needles scratching the back of my neck and started pulling them out my hair. I thought maybe, the pine needles had fallen from a tree onto my head. My brain was talking my gut into not collapsing. Because my gut was saying, help me, help me.

-------

After a few hours of this, they let me shower. I stood there examining my body beneath the stream of water and decided, I donít want my body anymore. I was terrified of it, I didnít know what had been in it, if it had been contaminated, who had touched it. I wanted to take off my body like a jacket and leave it at the hospital with everything else.

------

One day, I was at work, scrolling through the news on my phone, and came across an article. In it, I read and learned for the first time about how I was found unconscious, with my hair disheveled, long necklace wrapped around my neck, bra pulled out of my dress, dress pulled off over my shoulders and pulled up above my waist, that I was butt naked all the way down to my boots, legs spread apart, and had been penetrated by a foreign object by someone I did not recognize. This was how I learned what happened to me, sitting at my desk reading the news at work. I learned what happened to me the same time everyone else in the world learned what happened to me. Thatís when the pine needles in my hair made sense, they didnít fall from a tree. He had taken off my underwear, his fingers had been inside of me. I donít even know this person. I still donít know this person. When I read about me like this, I said, this canít be me, this canít be me. I could not digest or accept any of this information. I could not imagine my family having to read about this online. I kept reading. In the next paragraph, I read something that I will never forgive; I read that according to him, I liked it. I liked it. Again, I do not have words for these feelings.

------

And then, at the bottom of the article, after I learned about the graphic details of my own sexual assault, the article listed his swimming times. She was found breathing, unresponsive with her underwear six inches away from her bare stomach curled in fetal position. By the way, heís really good at swimming. Throw in my mile time if thatís what weíre doing. Iím good at cooking, put that in there, I think the end is where you list your extracurriculars to cancel out all the sickening things thatíve happened.

------

Never mentioned me voicing consent, never mentioned us even speaking, a back rub. One more time, in public news, I learned that my ass and vagina were completely exposed outside, my breasts had been groped, fingers had been jabbed inside me along with pine needles and debris, my bare skin and head had been rubbing against the ground behind a dumpster, while an erect freshman was humping my half naked, unconscious body. But I donít remember, so how do I prove I didnít like it.

I thought thereís no way this is going to trial; there were witnesses, there was dirt in my body, he ran but was caught. Heís going to settle, formally apologize, and we will both move on. Instead, I was told he hired a powerful attorney, expert witnesses, private investigators who were going to try and find details about my personal life to use against me, find loopholes in my story to invalidate me and my sister, in order to show that this sexual assault was in fact a misunderstanding. That he was going to go to any length to convince the world he had simply been confused.

I was not only told that I was assaulted, I was told that because I couldnít remember, I technically could not prove it was unwanted. And that distorted me, damaged me, almost broke me. It is the saddest type of confusion to be told I was assaulted and nearly raped, blatantly out in the open, but we donít know if it counts as assault yet. I had to fight for an entire year to make it clear that there was something wrong with this situation.

When I was told to be prepared in case we didnít win, I said, I canít prepare for that. He was guilty the minute I woke up. No one can talk me out of the hurt he caused me. Worst of all, I was warned, because he now knows you donít remember, he is going to get to write the script. He can say whatever he wants and no one can contest it. I had no power, I had no voice, I was defenseless. My memory loss would be used against me. My testimony was weak, was incomplete, and I was made to believe that perhaps, I am not enough to win this. His attorney constantly reminded the jury, the only one we can believe is Brock, because she doesnít remember. That helplessness was traumatizing.

-------

The sexual assault had been so clear, but instead, here I was at the trial, answering questions like:

How old are you? How much do you weigh? What did you eat that day? Well what did you have for dinner? Who made dinner? Did you drink with dinner? No, not even water? When did you drink? How much did you drink? What container did you drink out of? Who gave you the drink? How much do you usually drink? Who dropped you off at this party? At what time? But where exactly? What were you wearing? Why were you going to this party? Whatí d you do when you got there? Are you sure you did that? But what time did you do that? What does this text mean? Who were you texting? When did you urinate? Where did you urinate? With whom did you urinate outside? Was your phone on silent when your sister called? Do you remember silencing it? Really because on page 53 Iíd like to point out that you said it was set to ring. Did you drink in college? You said you were a party animal? How many times did you black out? Did you party at frats? Are you serious with your boyfriend? Are you sexually active with him? When did you start dating? Would you ever cheat? Do you have a history of cheating? What do you mean when you said you wanted to reward him? Do you remember what time you woke up? Were you wearing your cardigan? What color was your cardigan? Do you remember any more from that night? No? Okay, well, weíll let Brock fill it in.

------

And then it came time for him to testify and I learned what it meant to be revictimized. I want to remind you, the night after it happened he said he never planned to take me back to his dorm. He said he didnít know why we were behind a dumpster. He got up to leave because he wasnít feeling well when he was suddenly chased and attacked. Then he learned I could not remember.

So one year later, as predicted, a new dialogue emerged. Brock had a strange new story, almost sounded like a poorly written young adult novel with kissing and dancing and hand holding and lovingly tumbling onto the ground, and most importantly in this new story, there was suddenly consent. One year after the incident, he remembered, oh yeah, by the way she actually said yes, to everything, so.

He said he had asked if I wanted to dance. Apparently I said yes. Heíd asked if I wanted to go to his dorm, I said yes. Then he asked if he could finger me and I said yes. Most guys donít ask, can I finger you? Usually thereís a natural progression of things, unfolding consensually, not a Q and A. But apparently I granted full permission. Heís in the clear. Even in his story, I only said a total of three words, yes yes yes, before he had me half naked on the ground. Future reference, if you are confused about whether a girl can consent, see if she can speak an entire sentence. You couldnít even do that. Just one coherent string of words. Where was the confusion? This is common sense, human decency.

-------

Your attorney has repeatedly pointed out, well we donít know exactly when she became unconscious. And youíre right, maybe I was still fluttering my eyes and wasnít completely limp yet. That was never the point. I was too drunk to speak English, too drunk to consent way before I was on the ground. I should have never been touched in the first place. Brock stated, ďAt no time did I see that she was not responding. If at any time I thought she was not responding, I would have stopped immediately.Ē Hereís the thing; if your plan was to stop only when I became unresponsive, then you still do not understand. You didnít even stop when I was unconscious anyway! Someone else stopped you. Two guys on bikes noticed I wasnít moving in the dark and had to tackle you. How did you not notice while on top of me?

------

To sit under oath and inform all of us, that yes I wanted it, yes I permitted it, and that you are the true victim attacked by Swedes for reasons unknown to you is appalling, is demented, is selfish, is damaging. It is enough to be suffering. It is another thing to have someone ruthlessly working to diminish the gravity of validity of this suffering.

------

Lastly you said, I want to show people that one night of drinking can ruin a life.

A life, one life, yours, you forgot about mine. Let me rephrase for you, I want to show people that one night of drinking can ruin two lives. You and me. You are the cause, I am the effect. You have dragged me through this hell with you, dipped me back into that night again and again. You knocked down both our towers, I collapsed at the same time you did. If you think I was spared, came out unscathed, that today I ride off into sunset, while you suffer the greatest blow, you are mistaken. Nobody wins. We have all been devastated, we have all been trying to find some meaning in all of this suffering. Your damage was concrete; stripped of titles, degrees, enrollment. My damage was internal, unseen, I carry it with me. You took away my worth, my privacy, my energy, my time, my safety, my intimacy, my confidence, my own voice, until today.

------

...I became closed off, angry, self deprecating, tired, irritable, empty... While you worry about your shattered reputation, I refrigerated spoons every night so when I woke up, and my eyes were puffy from crying, I would hold the spoons to my eyes to lessen the swelling so that I could see... My life was put on hold for over a year, my structure had collapsed... I canít sleep alone at night without having a light on, like a five year old, because I have nightmares of being touched where I cannot wake up, I did this thing where I waited until the sun came up and I felt safe enough to sleep. For three months, I went to bed at six oíclock in the morning...I used to pride myself on my independence, now I am afraid to go on walks in the evening, to attend social events with drinking among friends where I should be comfortable being. I have become a little barnacle always needing to be at someoneís side, to have my boyfriend standing next to me, sleeping beside me, protecting me. It is embarrassing how feeble I feel, how timidly I move through life, always guarded, ready to defend myself, ready to be angry...You have no idea how hard I have worked to rebuild parts of me that are still weak. It took me eight months to even talk about what happened... I didnít want anyoneís pity and am still learning to accept victim as part of my identity. You made my own hometown an uncomfortable place to be... You cannot give me back my sleepless nights. The way I have broken down sobbing uncontrollably if Iím watching a movie and a woman is harmed, to say it lightly, this experience has expanded my empathy for other victims. I have lost weight from stress, when people would comment I told them Iíve been running a lot lately. There are times I did not want to be touched. I have to relearn that I am not fragile, I am capable, I am wholesome, not just livid and weak.

------

You should have never done this to me. Secondly, you should have never made me fight so long to tell you, you should have never done this to me. But here we are. The damage is done, no one can undo it. And now we both have a choice. We can let this destroy us, I can remain angry and hurt and you can be in denial, or we can face it head on, I accept the pain, you accept the punishment, and we move on.

Your life is not over, you have decades of years ahead to rewrite your story. The world is huge, it is so much bigger than Palo Alto and Stanford, and you will make a space for yourself in it where you can be useful and happy. But right now, you do not get to shrug your shoulders and be confused anymore. You do not get to pretend that there were no red flags. You have been convicted of violating me, intentionally, forcibly, sexually, with malicious intent, and all you can admit to is consuming alcohol. Do not talk about the sad way your life was upturned because alcohol made you do bad things. Figure out how to take responsibility for your own conduct.
Her words have been read by over five million people. I hope even more read them and realize just how shameful it is that one in four women in the United States have been raped or sexually assaulted, and yet rape is the most underreported crime in the country strictly because of situations like this, where the victim is cruelly and unjustly revictimized during the trial, forced to relive her assault in excruciating detail, and many times made out to be a slut or worse simply because of the way she was dressed or was acting. It is absolutely no excuse on the part of the person assaulting her. What we need is to teach everyone, boys and girls, that they do not ever, under any circumstances, have the right to do something like this to another person, and that they are responsible for their own actions no matter what the other person may or may not have done or said. Brock Turner should be ashamed of himself, and his father even more for perpetuating the myth that simply because his son was badly affected by this that it means he's been punished enough. Newsflash, you SOB; YOUR SON IS A RAPIST and he deserves every ounce of punishment he gets, and more if I'm quite frank about it, since I personally believe the sentence handed down by Judge Persky was a travesty of justice, and I sincerely hope it's overturned on appeal and a stricter sentence is handed down by the appeals judge. But Brock Turner does not deserve any sympathy in this, no matter what punishment he receives, and I am utterly enraged by his father's pathetic attempt to excuse his son's actions. It is not okay, and will never BE okay, to ever insinuate that a person who raped another person has suffered enough because he was "a good kid, with a bright future ahead of him". Period, end of story, mic drop.

I'll get down off my soapbox now.
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Old 6th June 2016, 09:22 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
I personally believe the sentence handed down by Judge Persky was a travesty of justice, and I sincerely hope it's overturned on appeal and a stricter sentence is handed down by the appeals judge. .
Agreed. Hopefully the judge gets voted out of office at the next election.
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Old 6th June 2016, 10:21 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
That letter makes me sick. It's a perpetuation of the unfortunate standard of rape culture in the United States these days; that because the perpetrator is young, bright, has a good future, or has a relatively rare skillset (i.e. his swimming) that it should somehow excuse him. WRONG. He raped this girl. He raped this girl. He raped this girl.
We hear this about athletes, etc. all the time when they commit all sorts of crimes. Drunk driving or drugs are other classic. And women will pull the "what about raising my children". And old people will pull their excuse. Not seeing the "rape culture".

Quote:
I have absolutely no sympathy for Brock Turner, and indeed I would be... well, not happy, because I don't think anyone should be raped, but I would almost feel like he got his just desserts if he were raped in prison just so he would know what it feels like to have his body violated. I don't advocate anything like that happening, understand, but my visceral, instinctive reaction to hearing news like that would be, I have to admit, "well, now he knows what it feels like when someone violates you without consent." Doubt it will happen though.
Nope. Sorry, you don't get to walk back wishing rape upon someone. Did you know that rape culture, as the term originally meant, actually exists in prisons?

Quote:
The rape victim wrote what is, in my opinion, a far more powerful letter that was read at Turner's sentencing hearing, and I have to wonder just how steeped in white privilege that judge was to not let this sway his decision to only sentence Turner to six months in prison.
I'm sorry, I missed the racial element of this case.

Quote:
I hope even more read them and realize just how shameful it is that one in four women in the United States have been raped or sexually assaulted,
Myth. Whether we measure rape or sexual assault, and stranger or domestic, and the definitions for all these are very much debated (not to mention general populus or on campus), but people have clung onto this one stat as a political tool. The actual numbers are lower and quite even between the sexes. The researchers behind the infamous 1 in 5 survey have said it is not representative. Female rape and sexual assault, much lower than 1 in 4 or 5, has been on the decline according to all government data.

Quote:
and yet rape is the most underreported crime in the country strictly because of situations like this, where the victim is cruelly and unjustly revictimized during the trial, forced to relive her assault in excruciating detail, and many times made out to be a slut or worse simply because of the way she was dressed or was acting.
Well, no. Or at least, not for a majority according to surveys.

However, what is the alternative? That the defendant does not get to cite exculpatory evidence or hire a defence attourney, the way the university "mini-trials" are going? If testifying in a court of law where a defendant has rights is tantamount to "revictimising", what is your solution?

Quote:
It is absolutely no excuse on the part of the person assaulting her. What we need is to teach everyone, boys and girls, that they do not ever, under any circumstances, have the right to do something like this to another person, and that they are responsible for their own actions no matter what the other person may or may not have done or said.
How many other crimes do you want to "educate" away. Such a program sounds ridiculous. Do you picture there are children sitting in class who think raping is okay, but you can just teach them not to?

In the meantime it seems the "rape culture" proponents are un-clarifying issues with campaigns on affirmative consent, intoxication, and the like that don't follow rules anyone else, like the law, knows about.

Quote:
It is not okay, and will never BE okay, to ever insinuate that a person who raped another person has suffered enough because he was "a good kid, with a bright future ahead of him". Period, end of story, mic drop.
But what about the person who killed another person in a drunk driving accident? What about the person who shot a neighbor?

I could go on, but you see my point. What makes you think this is because it is rape, and not because family members have sided with their scummy relatives and they have made these sorts of "woe is me" pleas?

I hear family members of black gang members do this all the time. Put that in your white privilege and smoke it .

Quote:
I'll get down off my soapbox now.
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Old 6th June 2016, 10:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
I personally believe the sentence handed down by Judge Persky was a travesty of justice, and I sincerely hope it's overturned on appeal and a stricter sentence is handed down by the appeals judge.
Is this even possible in California?
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Old 6th June 2016, 11:09 PM   #7
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Tsukasa Buddha pretty much hit every point I would have raised. So, in short, I second what Tsukasa Buddha has said.

That said, I'll still offer the following.

Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
It's a perpetuation of the unfortunate standard of rape culture in the United States these days...

It's a strange sort of 'rape culture' which (a) saw this young man arrested, prosecuted, and convicted; and (b) has a rate of rape, according to the FBI's UCR, that is at forty-year lows.

Now, if you want to argue his sentence seems inadequate to the scale of the crime for which he was convicted, I'm inclined to agree. But lenient sentences given, for whatever reasons, to some convicted persons is not exactly unheard of. (And by the way, for comparable crimes, men are more likely than women to be arrested and prosecuted, and when convicted, receive sentences that are on average 60% longer.)
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Old 7th June 2016, 02:58 AM   #8
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When I read what the father said, I pretty much immediately understood how his son turned out to be a rapist!


ETA: I hope the Police appeal the lightness of the sentence. He ought to have got 5 to 15 minimum.
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Old 7th June 2016, 03:14 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
A young man who attended Stanford gets jail sentence for raping COED who was passed-out drunk. Father of the young man says in a letter to the court, "This is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action..."

http://www.cleveland.com/nation/inde...entencing.html
That one quote is about enough out of him.

"a steep price to pay". No it's not, given that the "action" in question was raping a person. People have their entire lives changed, and possibly ended, in an instant.

(And yes, the rapist getting a lenient sentence is a classic example of what people are discussing when they use the term "rape culture")
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Old 7th June 2016, 04:15 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Father of the young man says in a letter to the court, "This is a steep price to pay for 20 minutes of action..."
If he'd just shot her, that would have been less than a second of action, so by that argument the maximum murder sentence should be about three and a half hours.

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Old 7th June 2016, 05:43 AM   #11
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Why are liberal institutions like Stanford such hotbeds of misogyny?
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Old 7th June 2016, 05:54 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post

I'll get down off my soapbox now.
Don't ever.
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Old 7th June 2016, 05:54 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why are liberal institutions like Stanford such hotbeds of misogyny?
Folks...he's Trolling.

Please...nobody take the bait. Just ignore him.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:11 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Folks...he's Trolling.

Please...nobody take the bait. Just ignore him.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:14 AM   #15
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This letter in support of the perp might be even worse...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7068571.html
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:26 AM   #16
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Castrate them both.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:26 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
A young man who attended Stanford gets jail sentence for raping COED who was passed-out drunk.
Minor point: the victim was not a Stanford student. Just a girl who came to the party to get black-out drunk.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:37 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
That letter makes me sick. It's a perpetuation of the unfortunate standard of rape culture
Yes, rape culture. In a culture that condemns rape and treats it as almost worse than murder.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:38 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That one quote is about enough out of him.

"a steep price to pay". No it's not, given that the "action" in question was raping a person. People have their entire lives changed, and possibly ended, in an instant.

(And yes, the rapist getting a lenient sentence is a classic example of what people are discussing when they use the term "rape culture")
What's really sad is that this kid doesn't seem to be a malicious type...yet somehow alcohol cut off his empathy circuits and then he did some bad things.

Alcohol: Facilitating rape since 5000 BC.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:38 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, rape culture. In a culture that condemns rape and treats it as almost worse than murder.
You get less than six months for murder?
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:39 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You get less than six months for murder?
Read my post again.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:40 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Minor point: the victim was not a Stanford student. Just a girl who came to the party to get black-out drunk.
You're not allowed to warn women not to get black-out drunk at college parties. Apparently common-sense advice is victim-blaming.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:40 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
He ought to have got 5 to 15 minimum.
Do you think he's a danger to society? If not, why 5 to 15? He made a very stupid decision and abused another person. I would hope that he won't repeat that mistake, but if he goes to prison after 15 he mightactually be worse than when he got in.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:44 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're not allowed to warn women not to get black-out drunk at college parties. Apparently common-sense advice is victim-blaming.
I would love to live in a world where men and women both could get black-out drunk and the worst that would ever happen to them is embarrassment. We do not live in that world. Maybe one day we will.
I am heartened that when one guy was doing a bad thing, two other guys stopped it. I want my culture to oppose rather than facilitate bad acts.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:55 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Tsukasa Buddha pretty much hit every point I would have raised. So, in short, I second what Tsukasa Buddha has said.

That said, I'll still offer the following.




It's a strange sort of 'rape culture' which (a) saw this young man arrested, prosecuted, and convicted; and (b) has a rate of rape, according to the FBI's UCR, that is at forty-year lows.

Now, if you want to argue his sentence seems inadequate to the scale of the crime for which he was convicted, I'm inclined to agree. But lenient sentences given, for whatever reasons, to some convicted persons is not exactly unheard of. (And by the way, for comparable crimes, men are more likely than women to be arrested and prosecuted, and when convicted, receive sentences that are on average 60% longer.)
Hey you should buy the judges logic, why should being a rapist ruin this mans bright future?
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes, rape culture. In a culture that condemns rape and treats it as almost worse than murder.
Exactly, being a rapist isn't a big deal an certainly not something that should seriously mess up your life.
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Old 7th June 2016, 06:59 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're not allowed to warn women not to get black-out drunk at college parties. Apparently common-sense advice is victim-blaming.
Yep clearly it was really her fault and she should be punished for forcing this guy to rape her. Just like having a car is the primary cause of getting your car stolen, you really should have known better than to own a car that is just asking someone to steal it.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society? If not, why 5 to 15? He made a very stupid decision and abused another person. I would hope that he won't repeat that mistake, but if he goes to prison after 15 he mightactually be worse than when he got in.
And why it was good to keep moving rapist priests around, they could do some good tending to the souls of others, much better than rotting in prison for a nothing crime like rape.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:03 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep clearly it was really her fault and she should be punished for forcing this guy to rape her.
I never said anything of the sort. But thanks for proving my point that common-sense advice for how to avoid getting hurt is now unacceptable.

Quote:
Just like having a car is the primary cause of getting your car stolen, you really should have known better than to own a car that is just asking someone to steal it.
No, it's nothing like that. Rather, it's like advising people to lock their cars.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:04 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep clearly it was really her fault and she should be punished for forcing this guy to rape her. Just like having a car is the primary cause of getting your car stolen, you really should have known better than to own a car that is just asking someone to steal it.
How about - you really should have known better than to park your car, unlocked and with the keys still in it, in the drug-dealer neighborhood downtown?
That's pretty much equivalent to passing out near a frat party. Nobody should be raped (or have their car stolen); prosecute the rapist (or the car thief); but for God's sake don't be an idiot about your own safety.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:09 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I never said anything of the sort. But thanks for proving my point that common-sense advice for how to avoid getting hurt is now unacceptable.
It is and it isn't. Clearly you deserve to get your car stolen any time you make a mistake and forget to lock it. Just like any other mistake you might make needs to be properly punished. While taking advantage of someone else's mistakes isn't a big deal. Like why should I have to break because some dumb pedestrian walks in front of me, I should be able to run them down and keep going as they shouldn't have done that and so deserve the hit and run.

Quote:
No, it's nothing like that. Rather, it's like advising people to lock their cars.
And why stealing an unlocked car should not really be a crime. And certainly be a far lesser crime.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:11 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
How about - you really should have known better than to park your car, unlocked and with the keys still in it, in the drug-dealer neighborhood downtown?
That's pretty much equivalent to passing out near a frat party. Nobody should be raped (or have their car stolen); prosecute the rapist (or the car thief); but for God's sake don't be an idiot about your own safety.
Yes yes yes, she deserves rape like all women who go to frat parties and drink anything. That is what one expects going to frat parties, makes me wonder about why people cared about the University of Virginia case as everyone knows that is what is always happening at frats.

Any woman at a frat party should expect to be raped.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:14 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yes yes yes, she deserves rape like all women who go to frat parties and drink anything.
I don't know why you say all men are rapists and all rape accusations should result in immediate death sentences. That's just ridiculous.

Okay, are we done now? Care to read what I actually said and respond to that?
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:26 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society?

If that's your standard, you're going to have to rewrite the whole penal code and let an awful lot of those with a financial incentive to imprison the population know they're going to have to tighten their belts.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society? If not, why 5 to 15?
Deterrence.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:31 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Outraged? You are kidding.

Yawn.
Yawn indeed.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly, being a rapist isn't a big deal an certainly not something that should seriously mess up your life.
And more strawmen from you. Seriously every single response you'd made to me in the last weeks has been a complete non sequitur.

Rape is bad. Very, very bad. However I wonder if sending someone away for 15 years solves anything or teaches him a valuable life lesson so that he doesn't so it again. Somehow you seem to equate this with saying that rape isn't bad.

Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
If that's your standard, you're going to have to rewrite the whole penal code and let an awful lot of those with a financial incentive to imprison the population know they're going to have to tighten their belts.
Why? I am under the impression that sending people to prison for a long time is because they are a danger to the general population. For minor offenses, for instance, we typically have fines and community work. The convicted in the OP did something very bad and very stupid, but the sentence must reflect both the danger he poses to others (how likely he is to do something like this again) and what we want to do with him in the future (reform?) in addition to a possible deterrent to others.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:33 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It is and it isn't. Clearly you deserve to get your car stolen any time you make a mistake and forget to lock it.
I said nothing about anyone deserving anything. Really, turtle, is this the best you can do?

Yes, actually, I suppose it is.

Quote:
Just like any other mistake you might make needs to be properly punished.
Again, I said nothing about punishment. I only advised how to avoid making a serious mistake.

Quote:
While taking advantage of someone else's mistakes isn't a big deal.
I never said that either. Advising people to lock their cars does not constitute excusing car theft of unlocked cars.

Quote:
And why stealing an unlocked car should not really be a crime. And certainly be a far lesser crime.
You're like a parody of SJW's. Except I know you really are serious, though it's impossible to take you seriously.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:33 AM   #38
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The severity of the more severe offenses really is more about deterrence than it is about rehabilitation. I don't believe anybody thinks that 20 years is better than 5 for rehabilitating offenders. It's entirely punitive.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:34 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
Deterrence.
That's one thing, sure. Does it work, however, and is 15 years reasonable? What kind of person can we expect him to be when he comes out of that system?

Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
It's entirely punitive.
In my book, that makes it useless.
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Old 7th June 2016, 07:36 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you think he's a danger to society? If not, why 5 to 15? He made a very stupid decision and abused another person. I would hope that he won't repeat that mistake, but if he goes to prison after 15 he mightactually be worse than when he got in.
He went way beyond "a very stupid decision."
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