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Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Ahmed Jibril , Lockerbie bombing , Pan Am 103 , Scotland issues , US-Scotland relations

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Old 4th January 2012, 12:20 PM   #841
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't think anyone claims he intentionally contracted cancer to get out of jail, I think a much more reasonable suspicion is that the state of his health was exaggerated in order to get him out of jail, and it was done primarily by people who are either in denial about his guilt, or who don't think his crime was a bad thing.
Just as likely, the state of his health was exaggerated in order to get him to drop his appeal against conviction, which by all accounts had every chance of succeeding.

"Mr. Megrahi, I've got some good news and some bad news: the good news is that the Scottish CCRC is considering your case, and you'll likely be a free man in 3 months time. The bad news is ... you might not live 3 months. But I can maybe get you home before then, if you'll just agree to drop your appeal. What do you say?"

ETA: Oops, didn't read to the end of the thread before posting. But I'm leaving my post in anyway.

Last edited by Antony; 4th January 2012 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 4th January 2012, 03:21 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I don't think anyone claims he intentionally contracted cancer to get out of jail, I think a much more reasonable suspicion is that the state of his health was exaggerated in order to get him out of jail, and it was done primarily by people who are either in denial about his guilt, or who don't think his crime was a bad thing.
This is so out of character for this poster I fear someone has hacked his account. I have rarely seen such a poor grasp of something in my life.
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Old 4th January 2012, 04:31 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by Antony View Post
"Mr. Megrahi, I've got some good news and some bad news: the good news is that the Scottish CCRC is considering your case, and you'll likely be a free man in 3 months time. The bad news is ... you might not live 3 months. But I can maybe get you home before then, if you'll just agree to drop your appeal. What do you say?"

Of course, the Scottish government vehemently denies any such implication, and if they did say that, MacAskill covered his tracks very well....

Actually, the timing of your tale is a bit off.

Megrahi's appeal started in the spring of 2009, and a fair chunk of evidence had already been heard by the court. However, despite the fact that he had a terminal prognosis, hearings were scheduled to be spread over at least three sessions - in the summer they were in recess and not scheduled to start again until November. (One of the judges was ill and couldn't sit, but I'm not sure how much this affected the timetable.) The final session wasn't scheduled to be heard until early in 2010, with the verdict expected in early spring.

Megrahi seems to have been getting a bit desperate, and was actually pushing for a short prognosis to support compassionate release. But there does seem to have been something of a consensus at the time that he was unlikely to see 2010 anyway. Of course, there was no necessity for him to drop the appeal to be granted compassionate release, and initially I and I think everyone else assumed he would go home, the appeal would continue with his lawyers presenting his case, and we'd get the verdict in 2010 whether he was still alive or not.

Then there was a categorical announcement one evening that Megrahi would drop his appeal the next day, and then he would be granted compassionate release. That was when I wanted to go after Kenny with the thumbscrews. It seemed an absolutely blatant quid pro quo.

Then the politicos and the legal eagles started talking as if the SCCRC report never existed, and when challenged stated blandly that Megrahi chose to withdraw his appeal when he didn't have to, so all that was moot. He would die a guilty man. Some even claimed that his withdrawal of the appeal was tantamount to a confession.

I think Megrahi has been played for a sucker by the Scottish legal system for over 20 years. For whatever reason, the official line is that there is no doubt of his guilt, and anyone pointing out the absence of evidence and the plethora of evidence pointing elsewhere is a mad conspiracy theorist.

Of course, the biggest conspiracy theory in all this is the allegation that an unaccompanied suitcase was smuggled on board KM180, with the implied and suggested collusion of the entire staff of Air Malta and Luqa airport, the production of a complete set of entirely fictitious loading documents for the plane, and nobody ever squealed in 23 years, despite the ensuing carnage. If a CTer produced that theory, with no supporting evidence and a lot of evidence suggesting it's not true, they'd be laughed out of court. It only stands up because it's the cops saying so.

Rolfe.
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:05 PM   #844
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Forgot to comment on this when it happened. This disgusting murderer is now burning in hell. Hopefully Bad/Good Sky Daddy will give him the same punishment that he/her/it gave to the 9/11 terrorists:

Quote:
I was promised I would spend eternity in Paradise, being fed honeyed cakes by 72 virgins in a tree-lined garden, if only I would fly the airplane into one of the Twin Towers," said Mohammed Atta, between attempts to vomit up the wasps, hornets, and live coals infesting his stomach. "But instead, I am fed the boiling feces of traitors by malicious, laughing Ifrit. Is this to be my reward for destroying the enemies of my faith?"

The rest of Atta's words turned to raw-throated shrieks, as a tusked, asp-tongued demon burst his eyeballs and drank the fluid that ran down his face.

<snip>

Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 2
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:36 PM   #845
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Forgot to comment on this when it happened. This disgusting murderer is now burning in hell. Hopefully Bad/Good Sky Daddy will give him the same punishment that he/her/it gave to the 9/11 terrorists:
Your informed skepticism is most impressive!
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:46 PM   #846
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Your informed skepticism is most impressive!
As is yours darling....
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:53 PM   #847
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A Shakespearian quote sprang to mind here, though the parallel is far from exact, obviously.

"A ministering angel may my sister be, while thou liest howling."

The legal door is now open for another appeal, so hopefully matters will start moving again.

Rolfe.
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:56 PM   #848
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That's the thing about Shakespeare, his stories suck but his prose is genius.
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Old 28th June 2012, 01:57 PM   #849
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You didn't really get it, did you?

By the way, http://www.scottishreview.net/MoragKerr256.shtml

Rolfe.
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Old 28th June 2012, 02:04 PM   #850
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You didn't really get it, did you?
Of course I got, I just don't agree with you. Perhaps we should just to agree to disagree on this subject. The best trip I ever had to Europe was in Scotland.
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Old 28th June 2012, 02:52 PM   #851
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I found it quite distasteful to see you come to this thread a month after the poor man died
Rolfe, even if he didn't do it*... he was still a paid up member of a dictators security service, so perhaps eulogizing him like he's Nelson Mandela might be a bit much... just a thought.




* Of course IF he didn't do it, there should be a posthumous appeal/re-trial/pardon etc and a renewed hunt for whoever did it. (Of course... maybe he did do it.)
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Old 28th June 2012, 02:57 PM   #852
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
.. he was still a paid up member of a dictators security service...
Evidence?
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Old 28th June 2012, 03:13 PM   #853
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Rolfe, even if he didn't do it*... he was still a paid up member of a dictators security service, so perhaps eulogizing him like he's Nelson Mandela might be a bit much... just a thought.

There is no reliable evidence that he was "a paid up member of a dictator's security service". There just isn't.

Since I started looking at this case I have become acquainted with a number of people who met him often and got to know him quite well, and were on first-name terms with him. Nobody who actually got to know him has maintained the belief that he was some sort of terrorist mastermind.

He was an ordinary Libyan guy who didn't oppose Gaddafi and was trying to get on with his life. He had a job that was going nowhere, and he was trying to succeed with various private business ventures. He was self-building a new house. He was cheating on his wife while she was looking after their four young children. And he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I merely found ALT+F4's gratuitous intervention quite offensive, in comparing Megrahi to the 9/11 hijackers, in view of what Jim Swire reported about Megrahi's death-bed words to him about God and heaven and forgiveness.

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
* Of course IF he didn't do it, there should be a posthumous appeal/re-trial/pardon etc and a renewed hunt for whoever did it. (Of course... maybe he did do it.)

It seems likely a posthumous appeal will be initiated. Hopefully. Because we need to get out from under this farce of a conviction so we can try to find who did it. (Assuming the cops will ever agree to look elsewhere, seriously.) If that falls through, pressure for an independent public inquiry will of course continue.

Maybe he did do it. Except he has a better alibi for the crime than I have. Maybe Nelson Mandela did it, for goodness sake. (OK, that's a bit surreal. But really, you might as well come out and suggest that maybe the Maguire Seven really did do the Guildford pub bombings after all.)

Rolfe.
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Old 28th June 2012, 04:19 PM   #854
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Dear Rolfe, You are never going to convince me or any of my ilk that you are right and that I am wrong.
And yet you're wrong. Faith is a great and powerful thing.
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Old 28th June 2012, 04:34 PM   #855
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Oh hi Caustic!

Did I mention I've got Sidhu's statement? I know exactly what he did with the suitcases that were in AVE 4041 at Heathrow, when he loaded the Frankfurt luggage....

Can I interest you further?

Rolfe.
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Old 28th June 2012, 05:02 PM   #856
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This may be unwise, but what the hell. I mentioned in a thread in the CT forum that I had a late-draft PowerPoint presentation on Lockerbie, aimed at interested people who don't have a detailed understanding of the case. It's accessible (for now) as a PDF file, no animations and the narration printed under the slides.

www.vetpath.co.uk/lockerbie/ppt.pdf

I would be interested in feedback from anyone who cares to take the trouble to read it. Including ALT+F4.

Rolfe.
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Old 29th June 2012, 02:41 AM   #857
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh hi Caustic!

Did I mention I've got Sidhu's statement? I know exactly what he did with the suitcases that were in AVE 4041 at Heathrow, when he loaded the Frankfurt luggage....

Can I interest you further?

Rolfe.
That is pretty interesting sounding. It's at the top of my list for when I want to get back into Lockerbie stuff. It does make it sound more interesting, but competition is stiff. More recent and ongoing lies threaten to take many more lives, and it can still be avoided. Hypothetically. So in all grandiosity, I crusade...

I was also ready to respond to arude comment, but it's now snipped, so I won't. You are a totally nerd, though, Rolfe.
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Old 29th June 2012, 03:00 AM   #858
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This may be unwise, but what the hell. I mentioned in a thread in the CT forum that I had a late-draft PowerPoint presentation on Lockerbie, aimed at interested people who don't have a detailed understanding of the case. It's accessible (for now) as a PDF file, no animations and the narration printed under the slides.

www.vetpath.co.uk/lockerbie/ppt.pdf

I would be interested in feedback from anyone who cares to take the trouble to read it. Including ALT+F4.

Rolfe.
Looks good. I'll give it a thorough read later.
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Old 29th June 2012, 03:45 AM   #859
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Originally Posted by Caustic Logic View Post
That is pretty interesting sounding. It's at the top of my list for when I want to get back into Lockerbie stuff. It does make it sound more interesting, but competition is stiff. More recent and ongoing lies threaten to take many more lives, and it can still be avoided. Hypothetically. So in all grandiosity, I crusade...

I was also ready to respond to arude comment, but it's now snipped, so I won't. You are a totally nerd, though, Rolfe.

Fair enough. I don't think it's possible to dictate what issues any particular person becomes absorbed in. Knock yourself out! (Some of the images on your blog aren't displaying though, you may want to check. And I couldn't add a comment last night.)

I was quite shocked by the way this thread was bumped, I have to admit. Lockerbie was never a suicide bombing, or anything to do with jihad or islamic fundamentalism. It was pure calculated political revenge for an act carried out by the US authorities - and that's irrespective of whether you think it was Libya or Iran that was behind it.

I was also very struck by a couple of deathbed interviews of Megrahi, in which he spoke to Christian friends of going to meet God, "who is your God too", and of anticipating meeting Tony Gauci in heaven. (Tony Gauci is also a Christian, a Catholic.) He spoke of telling Tony that he forgave him, but asking why he had given false witness against him.

This commonplace acceptance of the concept that God is God, and that Allah or Jehovah or whatever word you want to use are all describing the same entity, and the concept that Moslem and Christian and everyone else will meet together in heaven, is not something that is usually associated with Moslem fundamentalists - but of course Megrahi was never that.

So I did find the bumping post quite offensive, especially coming more than a month after Megrahi's death. It's difficult to understand the mindset that will vehemently cling to an idea which the person can't support with any rational argument, but simply announces that there is nothing at all which will change their mind. I suppose it takes all sorts.

I think the current Libya situation is a far harder topic to tackle than a single incident which happened over 20 year ago and which was comprehensively investigated with a huge amount of evidence in the public domain. So good luck to you, you're going to need it.

Rolfe.
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Old 29th June 2012, 04:43 AM   #860
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Fair enough. I don't think it's possible to dictate what issues any particular person becomes absorbed in. Knock yourself out! (Some of the images on your blog aren't displaying though, you may want to check. And I couldn't add a comment last night.)

I was quite shocked by the way this thread was bumped, I have to admit. Lockerbie was never a suicide bombing, or anything to do with jihad or islamic fundamentalism. It was pure calculated political revenge for an act carried out by the US authorities - and that's irrespective of whether you think it was Libya or Iran that was behind it.

I was also very struck by a couple of deathbed interviews of Megrahi, in which he spoke to Christian friends of going to meet God, "who is your God too", and of anticipating meeting Tony Gauci in heaven. (Tony Gauci is also a Christian, a Catholic.) He spoke of telling Tony that he forgave him, but asking why he had given false witness against him.

This commonplace acceptance of the concept that God is God, and that Allah or Jehovah or whatever word you want to use are all describing the same entity, and the concept that Moslem and Christian and everyone else will meet together in heaven, is not something that is usually associated with Moslem fundamentalists - but of course Megrahi was never that.

So I did find the bumping post quite offensive, especially coming more than a month after Megrahi's death. It's difficult to understand the mindset that will vehemently cling to an idea which the person can't support with any rational argument, but simply announces that there is nothing at all which will change their mind. I suppose it takes all sorts.

I think the current Libya situation is a far harder topic to tackle than a single incident which happened over 20 year ago and which was comprehensively investigated with a huge amount of evidence in the public domain. So good luck to you, you're going to need it.

Rolfe.
Regarding the italicized parts... that´s something some people have an awfully hard time understanding. Even if Megrahi had, in fact, been the Lockerbie bomber, the bombing still wouldn´t have anything to do with fundalmentalist Islam. Megrahi would have been the henchman of a dictator carrying out the dictator´s orders. Gaddafi believed in Gaddafi, and in maintaining his own power - the rest was window dressing to fool those who really were devout Muslims. Same goes, or rather went, for Saddam, IMHO.

But, you know, who cares? To some, Islam is evil, Gaddafi is/was evil, thus Gaddafi was/is a fundamentalist Muslim. Lockerbie was an evil act, Gaddafi was evil, thus Gaddafi was behind Lockerbie. Simple reasoning for a simple mind.
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Old 29th June 2012, 05:16 AM   #861
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Megrahi's (first) appeal was actually in progress when the 9/11 attacks happened. He described (in John Ashton's book) being utterly shocked by what had happened, but also realising in despair that the authorities would never acquit him now, because he was a Moslem accused of aircraft-related terrorism.

I don't know to what extent that is true, but it's certainly the case that there's a lot of blatant apologetics, plus fingers-in-ears-and-humming-real-loud, in the Opinion of the appeal court judges. Lord Osborne went from observing that it appeared it was impossible that an unaccompanied suitcase could have travelled on flight KM180, to endorsing a report that just said, well it must have happened anyway, "we have to bear in mind the Crown's case was that this was a criminal act". That one has always astounded me. You mean, it's fine for a court to decide something happened for which there is no evidence (and a lot of evidence saying it didn't happen) so long as we make sure we're alleging it was done by an unspecified "criminal act". What, really?

It also seems to be the position of everyone who got to know Megrahi personally that he was a normal guy and not a wild-eyed terrorist of any description. That was why he was moved from Barlinnie to Greenock - the high-security solitary confinement environment at Barlinnie was seen as absolutely incongruous for this obviously low-risk prisoner.

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Old 30th June 2012, 06:53 AM   #862
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I see someone changed the title, which seems a bit pointless and unnecessary. Reminds me of the article RevStu put up on the day Megrahi's death was announced, though.

BREAKING: Lockerbie bomber still alive

Originally Posted by RevStu
Because, y’know, it wasn’t Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, who died today.



Perhaps one day we’ll know the truth, though.

Hopefully we'll hear soon if there are any competent moves to apply to the SCCRC for a third appeal into this farce of a conviction.

ETA: Just noticed this part of Giz's post.

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
.... perhaps eulogizing him like he's Nelson Mandela might be a bit much....

Giz, do you realise that Nelson Mandela was (is) one of Megrahi's strongest supporters? He campaigned on his behalf back in the 1990s and visited him in prison in 2002. I have a photo in a book (not on line) of them together in the prison visiting area, with Megrahi clasping Mandela's hand. Also of the inscription Mendela wrote in Megrahi's copy of Maldela's autobiography A Long Walk to Freedom. It reads "To Comrade Megrahi, Best wishes to one who is in our thoughts and prayers continuously. N. Mandela, 10-6-2002."

I think there are a lot of people making assumptions about this affair which are simply not warranted.

Rolfe.
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Old 1st July 2012, 01:25 AM   #863
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Nelson Mandela was also a convicted terrorist.
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Old 1st July 2012, 02:38 AM   #864
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I see someone changed the title, which seems a bit pointless and unnecessary.
Perhaps JREF skeptics are considered incapable of distinguishing between past, present and future!

Originally Posted by DrDave View Post
Nelson Mandela was also a convicted terrorist.
Yawn.
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Old 1st July 2012, 12:23 PM   #865
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I see they changed the title back. Sensible, really.

It's true, Nelson Mandela was a convicted terrorist. I imagine that's part of why he has always been so supportive of Megrahi. He knows what it's like to be unjustly imprisoned, in his case for 27 years. He made it through. Megrahi didn't.

I think Mandela actually did what he was convicted of doing, though. He really did bomb and sabotage quite a lot. He really did blow things up. It's just that we now believe he was justified in what he did.

The bombing of Pan Am 103 can't be justified by any possible reasoning. It was an appalling, atrocious act of mass murder. It's just that Megrahi doesn't ever seem to have been politically active, or to have been involved with any sort of violent action, and the so-called "evidence" linking him to Pan Am 103 is risible.

Rolfe.
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Old 1st July 2012, 05:12 PM   #866
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This may be unwise, but what the hell. I mentioned in a thread in the CT forum that I had a late-draft PowerPoint presentation on Lockerbie, aimed at interested people who don't have a detailed understanding of the case. It's accessible (for now) as a PDF file, no animations and the narration printed under the slides.

www.vetpath.co.uk/lockerbie/ppt.pdf

I would be interested in feedback from anyone who cares to take the trouble to read it. Including ALT+F4.

Rolfe.
Thanks. I've read half in detail and half in less detail. It's very clear and easy to read.
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Old 2nd July 2012, 03:13 AM   #867
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Thanks.

It's not ideal of course, because it's meant to have the narration read over the slides, with a little bit of animation on some of the slides. But I haven't figured out how to do that and put it on the net, yet.

What annoys me is people who refuse to read even the most basic explanation of the issues in the case, but like to come to threads to denounce this evil murderer and pooh-pooh any suggestion that actually he wasn't the evil murderer at all.

Rolfe.
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Old 2nd July 2012, 03:39 AM   #868
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's not ideal of course, because it's meant to have the narration read over the slides, with a little bit of animation on some of the slides. But I haven't figured out how to do that and put it on the net, yet.
"Use Microsoft Producer for Microsoft Office PowerPoint to capture and synchronize audio, video, slides, and images, then preview and publish a rich media presentation virtually anywhere for viewing in a Web browser."

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/downl....aspx?id=12033

hope this helps
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Old 2nd July 2012, 03:53 AM   #869
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I'll investigate later, thanks. I did have a thread in Computers and the Internet asking about it, but not everybody reads that section. It does sound ideal - I want a presentation format that's entirely passive, that is the viewer has no opportunity to edit the presentation, even by doing a "save as".

Then all I need to do is get Tilda Swinton or somebody like that to do the audio track, rather than me...

Rolfe.
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Old 2nd July 2012, 04:21 AM   #870
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Maybe put it into verse and get Pam Ayres to do it
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Old 2nd July 2012, 05:22 AM   #871
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Wrong accent....

Rolfe.
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