ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi , Lockerbie bombing , US-Libya relations

View Poll Results: Should convicted Libyan terrorist have been released?
Yes. He is a dying man and we should show compassion as a result. 11 11.34%
Yes. Such are the doubts over his conviction, and given that he will die before any appeal he should be released. 20 20.62%
Yes, but only under a prisoner transfer with strict rules over media access. 4 4.12%
No. Regardless of the legal considerations on the specific case, this hands a propaganda victory to the Libyan regime. 7 7.22%
No. He is legally guilty for the deaths of 270 people and should serve his sentence fully. 52 53.61%
Any other opinion, specify below! 3 3.09%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 22nd August 2009, 03:32 AM   #41
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by MikeSun5 View Post
that sounds almost too crazy to be true. The link isn't working for me though... where is this info from? Libya itself?

Wildcat just pasted text into the link instead of the url. I googled it and the correct link it this.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/eu...l?iref=24hours

Actually, this isn't that far out of line with what the BBC is reporting. Basically, that the Libyans are now claiming that the release was part of a trade deal. This is being denied by Westminster.

It's not that implausible though. In May of 2007, Tony Blair met Gadaffi in the "deal in the desert" and made an agreement with him that included authorising prisoner transfer of Libyan prisoners in Britain back to Tripoli. A few hours later, BP signed a multi-million pound deal with Libya for oil extraction.

There was a lot of recrimination about that, because the Libyans claimed that the whole point of the agreement had been to allow Megrahi's release, while Tony Blair came out with several contradictory statments. He said that Megrahi had been explicitly excluded, then he said he hadn't, who knows. However, as there were and are no other Libyan prisoners in Britain, it's difficult to see what else it could have been about.

The reason it went wrong was that while that deal was being agreed, there was an election in Scotland, and the Labour party lost power to the SNP. So by the time the agreement was signed, Blair was in no position to deliver what the Libyan's maintained he'd promised - basically, that the Scottish government wouldn't be a problem so far as acceding to a request for prisoner transfer was concerned.

Shortly after that, Megrahi was given leave to lodge a second appeal, which stopped any prisoner transfer in its tracks anyway. Megrahi didn't want to abandon his appeal in order to go home. However, that all changed the following year, when he was diagnosed with cancer, and then in the end, with only a short time to live. This was compounded by the fact that the appeal was proceeding at a glacial pace, thanks in a large part to the prosecution's refusal to disclose a document or documents said to have evidence that would exonerate Megrahi.

As far as the Scottish government is concerned, public percaption during the week is that it was acting autonomously. However, Libya has now claimed that the Westminster government put pressure on the Scottish government to grant the compassionate release.

Frankly, who knows. However the history of the 2007 agreement, where there is little doubt that a deal was made with Tony Blair to secure Megrahi's release as part of trade negotiations, does lend credence to the allegations.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 22nd August 2009 at 03:35 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 05:48 AM   #42
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
As to the poll, I chose the "Yes, he is dying" option, though in my mind, the serious doubts over his conviction would definitely also play a role.

It's fully within the Scottish legal system to grant release on compassionate grounds and they've done it in most cases. And I don't quite understand the outrage that is displayed here over his release; if you take a more detached - and cynical - look, all governments involved - US, UK, and Scottish - are happy about how this played out.

There were serious doubts about Megrahi's guilt, the evidence was thin, and the UN observer at Camp Zeist called the trial a sham. He was given a very short time to file an appeal, and it wasn't granted.

(As an aside, was this a special rule drawn up for this case, or is it normal in Scotland that appeals can be denied? In Holland, for comparison, everybody is entitled to an appeal and dispute the findings of fact there too).

In 2003, Megrahi filed a request for appeal with the Review Board, that was granted in 2007. The Review Board agreed he had very strong arguments for a successful appeal. He then filed appeal, but that hadn't yet come off the ground. The prosecution had also appealed against the sentence, because they considered it too lenient, and one of the newspaper articles linked mentioned that the prosecution's appeal had precedence over his. Justice may be slow, but this glacial speed reeks of deliberate obstruction.

It is very obvious that Megrahi only got his release because he dropped his appeal. The Scottish government was all too happy to let him go, IMHO: a successful appeal - an outcome with a reasonable probability, otherwise the Review Board would not have granted the appeal - would have been an embarrassment for the Scottish legal system in their biggest case thus far. That the current Scottish government is SNP doesn't really matter for that; whatever colour a government is, it is always loathe to have to get the skeletons out of the closet that their predecessors left there. It would also have been an embarrassment for the UK and US government, who had been heavily involved in this too. One of the technical experts whose testimony was doubted was an FBI man, to name just one thing.

As another aside: the 2007 "deal in the desert" Rolfe has mentioned a couple of times, could have been legitimately challenged by the US government. One of the preconditions for the Camp Zeist trial was that the convicted would server their sentences in Scottish prisons.

Anyway, with the current deal, no-one has to worry that the skeletons will ever come out of the closet. Obama, Brown and Salmond, or their advisers, are undoubtedly acutely aware of that. Those who are convinced that Megrahi was without any doubt the perpetrator, are just deluding themselves. Those who feel outrage over his release, lose sight of the bigger picture, which is that justice hasn't been served as it should be. And no-one knows for sure who did it and why.

Justice delayed is justice denied.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 06:34 AM   #43
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by MikeSun5 View Post
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Libya is playing this for all the propaganda it's worth. According to the Libyan government, this isn't about compassion for a dying man at all:

Yep, this is about those bastard Scots finally doing the right thing and releasing a political hostage.

Oh, and Kadhafi's son says it was also done as a prerequisite for a trade deal with Britain.

Like I said, played for fools.
that sounds almost too crazy to be true. The link isn't working for me though... where is this info from? Libya itself?
Oops, sorry. Fixed link: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/eu...eal/index.html

eta: Oh, i see Rolfe already fixed it. Thanks!

And I'm not saying I believe there was actually a trade deal involved, just that this is how the Libyans are playing it for propaganda purposes.
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!

Last edited by WildCat; 22nd August 2009 at 06:36 AM.
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 06:41 AM   #44
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Leif Roar View Post
You think the sentencing judge was unaware that the Scottish legal system allows for a convict to be pardoned and that this means he might be released early?
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event. I don't know which other convicted criminals were so pardoned but I'd guess their crimes weren't of the magnitude of the crimes of which he was convicted.
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:46 AM   #45
Leif Roar
Master Poster
 
Leif Roar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,795
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event.
Yes, it's rare. It's still a known part of the penal system, known and understood by the judge who made passed the sentence, so that's still where you'll find your asterix. (And I don't know if I would call it all that rare. I suspect that on a per-capita basis it happens about as much as executions do in the USA.)
__________________
"Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005
Leif Roar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 08:52 AM   #46
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Leif Roar View Post
Yes, it's rare. It's still a known part of the penal system, known and understood by the judge who made passed the sentence, so that's still where you'll find your asterix. (And I don't know if I would call it all that rare. I suspect that on a per-capita basis it happens about as much as executions do in the USA.)
How many of those 23 were murderers?
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 09:07 AM   #47
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event. I don't know which other convicted criminals were so pardoned but I'd guess their crimes weren't of the magnitude of the crimes of which he was convicted.
I wouldn't call 23 cases in 10 years in a country with 5 million people a rare event. As I understand from these threads, you are eligible for release on compassionate grounds if you have less than 3 months to live according to the doctor. It's pretty rare this happens to someone who, like Megrahi, is in his mid-50s; most people get to that terminal stage only over their 70s. As pensioners are not known for committing many crimes, I suspect a lot of those 23 cases were indeed heavy crimes, like murder and rape. I admit, this is all qualitatively, but just to put things into perspective until someone finds the numbers.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 09:51 AM   #48
Leif Roar
Master Poster
 
Leif Roar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,795
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
How many of those 23 were murderers?
Who cares?
__________________
"Our feature on cloud seeding (16 Apr, p40) should have started with the words 'Cannons blazed'. No clergy were set on fire in China's rainmaking experiment." -- New Scientist, 7th May 2005
Leif Roar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 10:05 AM   #49
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8216122.stm

FBI director Mueller puts it better than I could.

Kenny MacAskill should resign.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 10:20 AM   #50
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
I had big doubts at first, but now I do have to seriously wonder whether this release wasn't about compassion at all, but about striking a deal with Libya about oil deals:
Quote:
On Friday, Lord Trefgarne, chairman of the Libyan British Business Council, said Mr. Megrahi’s release had opened the way for Britain’s leading oil companies to pursue multibillion-dollar oil contracts with Libya, which had demanded Mr. Megrahi’s return in talks with British officials and business executives.

Lord Trefgarne told the BBC that talks on oil contracts had “not moved as fast as we would have hoped and expected” since Tony Blair, then prime minister, met in a tent in Libya five years ago with Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, the Libyan leader, and set the terms for the “deal in the desert” that sketched a reconciliation between Colonel Qaddafi’s pariah government and the West.

British business executives had made no secret of their intense lobbying for a prisoner transfer treaty proposed by Mr. Blair and Col. Qaddafi and finally ratified by Britain and Libya in April; before Mr. Megrahi’s cancer diagnosis, that treaty was seen as the most likely avenue for his return to Libya. But his cancer, and a finding by medical specialists that he was not likely to live more than three months, cleared the way for his release on compassionate grounds.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/wo...pagewanted=all

Wow, just wow!
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 10:27 AM   #51
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,609
Might I comment the coverage in the Scottish press to you, as you're picking this up some days after those of us in the UK. I'd start with the Herald, if I were you (www.theherald.co.uk).
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 10:28 AM   #52
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Leif Roar View Post
Who cares?
I certainly do. If other compassionate releases were for minor crimes or even major ones but for which a long sentence had already been served then maybe there were other factors involved.

Like oil deals.
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 10:29 AM   #53
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Might I comment the coverage in the Scottish press to you, as you're picking this up some days after those of us in the UK. I'd start with the Herald, if I were you (www.theherald.co.uk).
Thanks, I'll have a look at that after I do some work around the house.
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 10:37 AM   #54
Professor Yaffle
Butterbeans and Breadcrumbs
 
Professor Yaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Emily's shop
Posts: 17,581
It might be worth examining what exactly would happen if the cases that were given compassionate release in the past were no longer allowed that option.

Often, they still wouldn't be in prison. Prison hospitals do not have the facilities to deal with such cases. They would be in an ordinary hospital and as such they would be chained to a guard 24 hours a day. This takes resources away from the prison and can't be very pleasant for a prison guard to be chained to a dying person.

http://www.howardleague.org/francesc...-biggs-release
http://www.howardleague.org/francesc...se-from-prison

Last edited by Professor Yaffle; 22nd August 2009 at 10:41 AM.
Professor Yaffle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 11:44 AM   #55
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
I had big doubts at first, but now I do have to seriously wonder whether this release wasn't about compassion at all, but about striking a deal with Libya about oil deals:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/wo...pagewanted=all

Wow, just wow!

As there is more than one active thread on this I'm not sure if I posted it before. Not in this thread, as far as I remember.

First, good luck with persuading scissorhands to accept that part of the story. When I made reference to it in the other thread to point out that Labour party outrage over Megrahi's release was entirely synthetic, he refused to believe it had happened at all. However, as those of us who were paying attention to politics in 2007 remember, in May of that year Tony Blair (Labour prime minister in London) met Gadaffi and signed a deal which included provisions for Libyan prisoners in Britain to be transferred to Libya. "Hours" later (according to the BBC), BP signed a multi-million-pound deal with Libya in relation to oil exploration and extraction.

This deal caused all sorts of complications, principally because it was not up to Tony Blair whether or not Megrahi was transferred - this is a devolved matter, and the decision of the (then) Scottish executive. Another little wrinkle was that the original deal between Britain and the USA explicitly stated that anyone convicted at Camp Zeist would serve out his sentence in Scotland.

The Libyans declared that this deal had of course been referring to Megrahi, what else would it have been about, there were and are no other Libyans in prison in Britain. They were aware that the decision was one for the Scottish Executive, but Tony Blair had assured them that wouldn't be a problem.

However, it was. Unfortunately for Blair's plans, at the beginning of May the Labour party had unexpectedly lost the Scottish general election to the SNP. For a little while it was uncertain just who would form the government, but by the time the Deal in the Desert was signed, the SNP were the government and Alex Salmond was First Minister. Which of course meant that Blair couldn't just call up Jack McConnell and tell him to grant the prisoner transfer, as he'd obviously intended.

When details of the deal emerged, Salmond was furious. Blair told a different story every day, but had to concede that the matter was one of Scottish jurisdiction. And the SNP government was in no mood to roll over and wave its paws in the air. It seems likely that Libya was displeased by this, because it had granted the oil exploration rights, and it hadn't got Megrahi. It may well be that Libya now sees the compassionate release as the belated completion of that deal, and so in its view is telling the truth about the release being linked to a trade agreement.

At the time there was a lot said in the media to the effect that Megrahi's conviction was a miscarriage of justice and he should be released, but that wasn't the point, keep out of our affairs Blair. However, a few weeks later the SCCRC published the results of its enquiry into the case, which found six grounds for appeal, and Megrahi had an ongoing appeal. The existence of this appeal meant that prisoner transfer was off the agenda. (Actually, it now appears that the existence of a Crown appeal against sentence which had been outstanding for some time also forbade a transfer, but nobody mentioned that at the time.) Megrahi said then that he did not wish to forego his appeal in order to get back home, he wanted to prove his innocence.

The appeal proceeded with glacial speed (although I believe it did have priority over the Crown appeal), and a year later nothing had happened when Megrahi was diagnosed with cancer. At that time it was stated that this didn't change anything and as his condition wasn't immediately life-threatening, the appeal would proceed and he wasn't eligible for compassionate release. But even then, the subtext that compassionate release would probably be granted if his condition became terminal was clearly present.

The events of last week were just the culmination of all this. The Scottish government was always going to prefer compassionate release to prisoner transfer, partly because that's what it was, Megrahi wouldn't have been going anywhere if he hadn't been ill, partly because prisoner transfer would have been in breach of the original agreement with the USA, and partly because it didn't want to do it Blair's way on principle.

The current Westminster denials regarding a trade deal sound sincere to me, for what it's worth. The catalyst for all this was Megrahi's illness. But bear in mind that if there were any trade deals, they were not done with the Scottish government but with Westminster. Westminster has been fairly silent during all this; obviously they want Megrahi back in Libya, that's what they were trying to achieve two years ago, but it suited them to let the SNP take the flak.

So maybe a lot of what Libya is saying is mischiefmaking and simple stirring it. Could well be. But they may feel themselves justified in linking the release to a trade agreement, because they see it as Britain finally delivering on the agreement made with Tony Blair in 2007, which was linked to the BP contract.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:02 PM   #56
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
No, but given that there have been only 23 such releases in the last 10 years makes it a pretty rare event. I don't know which other convicted criminals were so pardoned but I'd guess their crimes weren't of the magnitude of the crimes of which he was convicted.

Wildcat, remember that very long sentences are not the norm in Scotland. Few people develop an illness that leaves them only three months to live while in jail. Most criminals have served their sentences and been released before they're old enough to develop illnesses of that gravity. And, as someone else pointed out, the total population of Scotland is 5 million people, so scale down your expectations a bit.

It's not just in Scotland that this happens. England recently granted compassionate release to Ronnie Biggs, the Great Train Robber. The reason he was in jail at his age was that he escaped over 40 years ago and lived the high life in Brazil where he was beyond extradition. He only decided to return to England voluntarily when he was elderly and sick, and wanted better healthcare. He knew perfectly well that if he timed it right, he would only serve a few years before being released to die. In fact he served about 8 years. When the English authorities announced only TWO WEEKS AGO that he was being granted compassionate release, I knew Megrahi would be out too by the end of the month.

This case is not a direct comparison of course, but it has its own disturbing elements which caused a fair old protest at the time.

I understand that Kenny MacAskill has not refused a single request for compassionate release in his time as Justice Secretary. Actually, we don't have many multiple murderers here, let alone multiple murderers who have developed a teminal illness in prison (they'd be more likely to be in Carstairs, which is a completely different kettle of fish). So you're just not going to find a comparable case as such.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:27 PM   #57
TexasJack
Penultimate Amazing
 
TexasJack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,906
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Son, shouting about the fact he was convicted isn't going to win you this argument. You need to address facts, evidence, and legal process.
Interesting. I've heard of this before and I'm interested in why he was convicted and why he should not have been. Any links are appreciated, or even a couple books you would recommend.
TexasJack is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:41 PM   #58
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
He's legally right of course. Legally, the conviction stands. And Kenny MacAskill is a smart enough lawyer to know that he has to hold that line irrespective of what he thinks personally.

I've been thinking this over all week. How would I feel about it if I knew Megrahi was guilty? Suppose this was Harold Shipman or Fred West? The deaths of the people on board Maid of the Seas were horiffic. I suspect that, given the choice, most people would prefer to have been on one of the planes on 9/11. And it was a deliberate, premeditated, fiendishly-planned crime.

At first I thought, no, if he really did do it, it's too much. But then, two things. First, who is the more guilty? The subordinate who carries out the plan, or the person who devised the plan in the first place? Should it not be Gadaffi in jail, rather than being lionised as a World Leader by Blair and his mates?

If the Official Version of this is indeed true, one also has to remember why it was done. The USA carried out a number of bombing raids on Libya in 1986, killing several hundred Libyan civilians, including Gadaffi's step-daughter. This apparently as reprisal for a Libyan terrorist bombing of a night club where US soldiers were present.

I'm sure the sufferings of the people caught up in the bombing raids were pretty horiffic too. And maybe so was the night-club bombing. And so it goes on. Outrage, resentment, revenge. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Somehow, we've got beyond this. Nobody bombed Tripoli after Lockerbie. We'd rather have Libya as a friendly trading partner, after all. And if what it takes to secure this change of heart on all sides is the release of the one cogwheel who was actually caught, and who only has months to live, then I think we can do it.

And that's completely ignoring the fact that Megrahi's conviction makes Barry George's look like a bang-to-rights job, and it's probably the passengers on the Iranian Airbus in 1988 we should be thinking about when we contemplate revenge and counter-revenge.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:41 PM   #59
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 23,478
Originally Posted by TexasJack View Post
Interesting. I've heard of this before and I'm interested in why he was convicted and why he should not have been. Any links are appreciated, or even a couple books you would recommend.
Put
+Thurman +timer +residue
into Google

And take it from there. They didn't even test the critical piece of evidence for explosives residue. And it goes much deeper than that.

Last edited by GlennB; 22nd August 2009 at 12:46 PM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 12:53 PM   #60
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Put
+Thurman +timer +residue
into Google

And take it from there. They didn't even test the critical piece of evidence for explosives residue. And it goes much deeper than that.
Just like at GZ!!!
Did they ship it off to China?
And have you got a youtube link?

Last edited by scissorhands; 22nd August 2009 at 12:56 PM.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:10 PM   #61
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by TexasJack View Post
Interesting. I've heard of this before and I'm interested in why he was convicted and why he should not have been. Any links are appreciated, or even a couple books you would recommend.

The only book I have about it is terrible and I wouldn't recommend it.

This link is a good narrative of the most popular CT on the incident.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n12/mile01_.html

A couple of BBC pages that are relevant.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/736490.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8211596.stm

Wikipadia has a page just on the CTs, quite apart from the page on the events themselves, and Megrahi's biography and so on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_...iracy_theories

And finally, the most authoritative document, the SCCRC summary press release concerning the grounds for appeal. It's possible that more than this is credible but lacks evidence, certainly this is the bare bones of the problems with the Camp Zeist trial.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...wlockerbie.pdf

Consider. The standard of proof for a criminal convction is "beyond reasonable doubt". There are great steaming piles of extremely reasonable doubt heaped up here.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:10 PM   #62
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If the Official Version of this is indeed true, one also has to remember why it was done. The USA carried out a number of bombing raids on Libya in 1986, killing several hundred Libyan civilians, including Gadaffi's step-daughter. This apparently as reprisal for a Libyan terrorist bombing of a night club where US soldiers were present.
Libya itself claims the attack only killed 40 people, the real number was likely far less.

And it wasn't just for the Berlin nightclub bombing - Libya had for years supported terrorist groups such as Abu Nidal, responsible for the Achille Lauro hijacking and the attacks on the airports in Rome and Vienna. To claim that Libya had a justification for the Pan Am bombing was absurd.

And didn't Libya admit responsibility for the Pan Am bombing and pay restitution? While it would be nice to have Khadhaffi's head it doesn't make his accomplices, underlings, and co-conspirators any less guilty.
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:14 PM   #63
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by scissorhands View Post
Just like at GZ!!!
Did they ship it off to China?
And have you got a youtube link?

The funny thing is, the only thread about this in the CT section is the one I started myself over two years ago, trying to find out if there was any claiming or debunking going on. Nothing.

I suppose when respected broadsheets and mainstream journalists and the BBC are freely giving these issues credence, it spoils the children's fun.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:18 PM   #64
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Libya itself claims the attack only killed 40 people, the real number was likely far less.

And it wasn't just for the Berlin nightclub bombing - Libya had for years supported terrorist groups such as Abu Nidal, responsible for the Achille Lauro hijacking and the attacks on the airports in Rome and Vienna. To claim that Libya had a justification for the Pan Am bombing was absurd.

And didn't Libya admit responsibility for the Pan Am bombing and pay restitution? While it would be nice to have Khadhaffi's head it doesn't make his accomplices, underlings, and co-conspirators any less guilty.

Did you actually read the rest of my post? And my "several hundred" number related to a series of raids, not just one. How many eyes going how far back, isn't the issue. Breaking the cycle of revenge is the issue.

Libya never admitted responsibility, it "agreed to accept responsibility". Their line has constantly been that they had to do that to achieve re-entry into the civilised world, get the sanctions lifted and so on.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:42 PM   #65
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Here's the meat of the SCCRC press release.

Quote:
• New evidence not heard at the trial concerned the date on which the Christmas lights were illuminated in the area of Sliema in which Mary’s House is situated. In the Commission’s view, taken together with Mr Gauci’s evidence at trial and the contents of his police statements, this additional evidence indicates that the purchase of the items took place prior to 6 December 1988. In other words, it indicates that the purchase took place at a time when there was no evidence at trial that the applicant was in Malta.

• Additional evidence, not made available to the defence, which indicates that four days prior to the identification parade at which Mr Gauci picked out the applicant, he saw a photograph of the applicant in a magazine article linking him to the bombing. In the Commission’s view evidence of Mr Gauci’s exposure to this photograph in such close proximity to the parade undermines the reliability of his identification of the applicant at that time and at the trial itself.

• Other evidence, not made available to the defence, which the Commission believes may further undermine Mr Gauci’s identification of the applicant as the purchaser and the trial court’s finding as to the date of purchase.

That last bit may simply refer to the fact that Gauci has been described as "an apple short of a picnic", or to the fact that he is alleged to have been paid a large sum of money by the US authorities for testifying against Megrahi, sufficient to allow him to emigrate to Australia.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 01:55 PM   #66
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That last bit may simply refer to the fact that Gauci has been described as "an apple short of a picnic", or to the fact that he is alleged to have been paid a large sum of money by the US authorities for testifying against Megrahi, sufficient to allow him to emigrate to Australia.
Sorry if I don't have a link for it at hand - it must be somewhere in these threads where I read it. Gauci had been asked four different times to describe the buyer of the clothes, to pick him out of an each time different line-up of photos, and consistently failed to identify Megrahi. Only the fifth time, before which he most probably had read a magazine article with a photo of Megrahi, did he identify him.

Credible witness much, eh?
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 02:04 PM   #67
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
I have read that allegation too. I don't know about the $2 million, but he is living in Australia.

Rollo also states that Gauci originally described the purchaser of the clothes as 6 feet tall or more, and in his fifties. Megrahi is apparently 5' 8" and was 36 in December 1988.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 22nd August 2009 at 02:06 PM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 03:01 PM   #68
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,609
Tch tch tch. Apparently, you've missed all the press furore.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8215706.stm
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 03:56 PM   #69
Architect
Chief Punkah Wallah
 
Architect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 9,609
And do you think that some of a cou'ntry's top legal experts suggesting that the convinction might be unsafe, and some of our top judges granting leave to appeal, counts for nothing?

Of course, we're just talking about Advocates-it's not like it's QCs or anything. Ah, no wait a minute.....law professor, representatives of victims, Church of Scotland, political commentators.....
__________________
When the men elected to make laws are but a small part of a foreign parliament, that is when all healthy national feeling dies.

James Keir Hardie (1856 - 1915): Politician, Founder of Scottish Labour Party
Architect is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 03:57 PM   #70
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Did you actually read the rest of my post? And my "several hundred" number related to a series of raids, not just one. How many eyes going how far back, isn't the issue. Breaking the cycle of revenge is the issue.
What "series of raids"? The only other one* was when Libya attacked a US carrier group (not very smart) beyond its 12 mile territorial limit in the Gulf of Sidra. And your claim was "Libyan civilians", of which there were none in this incident. It was strictly navy vs. navy.

Quote:
Libya never admitted responsibility, it "agreed to accept responsibility". Their line has constantly been that they had to do that to achieve re-entry into the civilised world, get the sanctions lifted and so on.

Rolfe.
And Charles Manson never admitted responsibility either. And how does this jibe with your claim that the Pan Am bombing was in response to the air raid?

eta: Oh, there was another incident in 1981 where Libya attacked another US Navy force with MiGs and the MiGs were shot down. Also in 1989, but that was after the Pan Am incident.
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!

Last edited by WildCat; 22nd August 2009 at 04:04 PM.
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:17 PM   #71
WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
 
WildCat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 59,856
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Wildcat

This is the kind of thing that UK posters are familiar with. Well, except Scissorhands, who seems strangely unfamiliar with many issues around the current furore.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Lockerbie/Story/0,2763,513160,00.html
Thanks for the link. A bit too many "connect the dots" stuff for me though. And a farmer who has since disappeared, CIA plot to kill a DIA honcho, well it's a bit too much for my tastes. Frankly, it's as convoluted as some truther stories. It also ignores that Iran was a prime suspect immediately following and was named as such (at least in the press of the day), but investigators later had to go where the evidence lead - to Libya.
__________________
Vive la libertÚ!
WildCat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:25 PM   #72
WUBRINY63
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 178
If the guy wasn't dying of cancer he would have been out in a few years anyway. So then what?

What I want to know is why he was only given that kind of sentence for supposedly being responsible for killing so many people? And didn't one of his partners get acquitted?
WUBRINY63 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:35 PM   #73
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Tch tch tch. Apparently, you've missed all the press furore.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8215706.stm

Oh, that's dynamite.

Quote:
"In all commercial contracts, for oil and gas with Britain, (Megrahi) was always on the negotiating table," Mr Islam said told Libya's Al Mutawassit channel.

Mr Blair visited Libya in May 2007, during which UK energy giant BP signed a $900m (ú540m) exploration deal.

And of course that was the visit during which Blair signed the agreement to allow prisoner transfer between Britain and Libya. With the only eligible prisoner being Megrahi. Then found he couldn't deliver because a rather inconvenient election happened on 3rd May.

Do I have to provide evidence of the running of that election and what the results were, as scissorhands seems to have forgotten all about the spring of 2007 in its entirety?

I think we can see who has been double-dealing behind the scenes in this one.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:36 PM   #74
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by WUBRINY63 View Post
If the guy wasn't dying of cancer he would have been out in a few years anyway. So then what?

What I want to know is why he was only given that kind of sentence for supposedly being responsible for killing so many people? And didn't one of his partners get acquitted?

Well now, it rather stands to reason that one of these verdicts was a miscarriage of justice. Why assume that it was the Fhimah verdict?

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:40 PM   #75
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What "series of raids"? The only other one* was when Libya attacked a US carrier group (not very smart) beyond its 12 mile territorial limit in the Gulf of Sidra. And your claim was "Libyan civilians", of which there were none in this incident. It was strictly navy vs. navy.

We seem to be referring to different things, and the book I'm referring to isn't with me at the moment.

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
And Charles Manson never admitted responsibility either. And how does this jibe with your claim that the Pan Am bombing was in response to the air raid?

I pointed out that if we accept that the bombing was a Libyan plot, then this is the accepted motive. I hope you're familiar with arguing hypotheticals.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:44 PM   #76
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
Thanks for the link. A bit too many "connect the dots" stuff for me though. And a farmer who has since disappeared, CIA plot to kill a DIA honcho, well it's a bit too much for my tastes. Frankly, it's as convoluted as some truther stories. It also ignores that Iran was a prime suspect immediately following and was named as such (at least in the press of the day), but investigators later had to go where the evidence lead - to Libya.

I'd be surprised if Architect was claiming that this article describes what happened. Note the date. It's merely an example of the mainstream press speculation about WTF has been going on, because a guy has just been handed a life sentence on evidence you wouldn't hang a case of illegal parking on.

It's been going on for 20 years. The case against Libya has never been accepted as probable, never mind proven, by people who have actually looked at what happened.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 04:45 PM   #77
WUBRINY63
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well now, it rather stands to reason that one of these verdicts was a miscarriage of justice. Why assume that it was the Fhimah verdict?

Rolfe.

I'm not. I'm questioning the sentence of the one convicted. 200 plus dead and not a life without parole sentence? Why is that all the court could get? And didn't the Israelis think it was Iran and not Libya? I hope this guy wasn't just the best conviction they could secure.
WUBRINY63 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 05:03 PM   #78
scissorhands
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,545
Quote:
I'd be surprised if Architect was claiming that this article describes what happened.
I wouldnt be surprised.
It fits pretty well with everything else he posts without reading properly.

Last edited by scissorhands; 22nd August 2009 at 05:04 PM.
scissorhands is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 05:28 PM   #79
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 42,498
Originally Posted by WUBRINY63 View Post
I'm not. I'm questioning the sentence of the one convicted. 200 plus dead and not a life without parole sentence? Why is that all the court could get? And didn't the Israelis think it was Iran and not Libya? I hope this guy wasn't just the best conviction they could secure.

There is a fair-sized body of opinion which thinks exactly that.

Something not being talked about much is the top-secret document the defence have been trying to have disclosed for years. The court has ordered disclosure, but the prosecution still refuse to comply.

Now, it looks as if they won't have to.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd August 2009, 11:22 PM   #80
MikeSun5
Trigger Happy Pacifist,
 
MikeSun5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,871
Originally Posted by Gaddafi
"In all commercial contracts, for oil and gas with Britain, (Megrahi) was always on the negotiating table," Mr Islam said told Libya's Al Mutawassit channel.
This doesn't make any sense to me... It sounds like Gaddafi is just running his mouth to make the UK look stupid. What would be the purpose? How is getting some old dude released from jail beneficial for the Libyan government? Oil is their biggest moneymaker. Why sacrifice some of that income to get some old ex-spook back? I don't see how that would be anything other than a public spectacle to embarrass Scotland's justice system.

Gaddafi's statements and Megrahi's much-celebrated welcome home seem a little too loud for me. They seem louder than Megrahi's claims of innocence.

Megrahi says he's got evidence he wasn't involved. If he's such a good guy, I hope he tells the authorities who was involved... You know, do the right thing and all - since Scotland finally did, right?
__________________
I always wondered if those WWJD bracelets worked, so I bought one. Well later, I was on a plane and this little kid was kicking my seat repeatedly, while his sister sang along with her walkman and their mother just sat there. I almost turned around and went off, and then I caught sight of my bracelet. What would Jesus do? So I lit them on fire and sent them all to Hell.
--Daniel Tosh
MikeSun5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:12 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.