ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Catholic incidents , church scandals , George Pell , sex scandals , sexual abuse charges , sexual abuse incidents , sexual misconduct charges

Reply
Old 28th June 2017, 07:23 PM   #1
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,209
Cardinal to be charged with sex offences...

Cardinal George Pell is being charged with sex offences.:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/cardi...ALhdy28zsr6qiq
Quote:
..."He said he is looking forward to his day in court and will defend the charges vigorously.

"He has again strenuously denied all allegations."

Cardinal Pell is the third most senior Catholic at the Vatican, where he is responsible for the church's finances. He is likely to step aside from his Vatican post while he fights the charges.

Victoria's Deputy Police Commissioner, Shane Patton, confirmed in a brief press conference on Thursday morning that Cardinal Pell had been issued with multiple charges relating to historical sexual abuse allegations...
And now a song:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th June 2017, 08:10 PM   #2
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,889
and of course

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 03:01 AM   #3
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,451
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Cardinal George Pell is being charged with sex offences.:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/cardi...ALhdy28zsr6qiq


And now a song:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I put a large amount of imaginary money down on what the song would be. I won!
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 04:50 AM   #4
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,497
If he is found guilty then the church could also have to pay a huge amount in civil damages. Could also pay a lot in people no longer going to church. So lose of influence.

Edit. Or so I hope. Do you think I am anywhere near right?
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 05:14 AM   #5
calebprime
moleman
 
calebprime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,302
"I hear the tollin' of a bell, and it has a Pell-ian knell."

Love it.
__________________
Now you know for certain what the big wide world is good for.
calebprime is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 11:07 AM   #6
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,342
What are Historical Sex Charges? What exactly did he do? The long article makes no mention of the acts he is being accused of. Do I want to know?

"Funny" how the problem is common enough that we assume it is a child when a priest is involved, yet nobody does anything to stop it.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 11:08 AM   #7
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 16,482
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What are Historical Sex Charges? What exactly did he do? The long article makes no mention of the acts he is being accused of. Do I want to know?

"Funny" how the problem is common enough that we assume it is a child boy when a priest is involved, yet nobody does anything to stop it.
FTFY.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 02:18 PM   #8
Brainache
Nasty Brutish and Tall
 
Brainache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 17,209
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What are Historical Sex Charges? What exactly did he do? The long article makes no mention of the acts he is being accused of. Do I want to know?

"Funny" how the problem is common enough that we assume it is a child when a priest is involved, yet nobody does anything to stop it.
The Police aren't giving details of the charges, but it is known that many years ago Pell shared a house with a Paedophile. He said that he didn't have anything to do with that, but the Victorian Police think he has a case to answer.

I think the "Historical" part refers to the fact that all these complaints come from the time when he was a mere Bishop and no one is accusing him of still doing it.
Brainache is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 03:53 PM   #9
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
What is the chance he'll go voluntarily? I heard on the radio that he had announced in an earlier matter that he wanted to go to Australia to defend himself but then his doctors said "he was too ill to travel". Yeah right.

And from the article in the OP:
Quote:
He lives in a block of apartments on a square just outside the Vatican walls, metres from St Peter's Square, and a minute's walk from the doors to the Basilica.
So he doesn't live in the Vatican, but in Rome. What would Italy do when Australia issues an arrest warrant through Interpol?
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 04:30 PM   #10
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,281
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If he is found guilty then the church could also have to pay a huge amount in civil damages. Could also pay a lot in people no longer going to church. So lose of influence.

Edit. Or so I hope. Do you think I am anywhere near right?
He will be found guilty alright. When there is more than 1 accuser the accused needs to prove their innocence - something which is nigh on impossible.

Getting damages will be another kettle of fish. Unlike other churches, the Catholic church is not a legal entity (corporation) so there is no central body to sue.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th June 2017, 05:21 PM   #11
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,342
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
FTFY.

I don't normally approve of "fixed" posts, but you actually did fix this one
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 04:16 AM   #12
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
He will be found guilty alright. When there is more than 1 accuser the accused needs to prove their innocence - something which is nigh on impossible.

Getting damages will be another kettle of fish. Unlike other churches, the Catholic church is not a legal entity (corporation) so there is no central body to sue.
Do you mean: the Catholic church is not a single legal entity, but is made up of scores of different legal persons, like every single episcopate?

It would be fairly easy to point to the legal person that employed the child abuser, then. Hadn't there already been one or more American episcopates filing for bankruptcy as a result of damage claims?
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 07:23 AM   #13
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,162
Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
Cardinal George Pell is being charged with sex offences.:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/cardi...ALhdy28zsr6qiq


And now a song:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Wow, these Catholics are looking more and more like Hassidic Jews every day
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 03:04 PM   #14
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,044
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Getting damages will be another kettle of fish. Unlike other churches, the Catholic church is not a legal entity (corporation) so there is no central body to sue.
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Do you mean: the Catholic church is not a single legal entity, but is made up of scores of different legal persons, like every single episcopate?

It would be fairly easy to point to the legal person that employed the child abuser, then. Hadn't there already been one or more American episcopates filing for bankruptcy as a result of damage claims?
Referring to this perhaps?
Quote:
In 2014, the royal commission was told how lawyers representing Pell and the Archdiocese of Sydney incurred costs of A$1.5 million against a victim of sexual abuse. The lawyers, acting on the church's instructions, "vigorously" fought John Ellis through the courts despite warnings of his "fragile psychological state". The resulting NSW Court of Appeal ruling established the controversial "Ellis Defence", which confirmed that the church could not be sued as a legal entity and held liable for abuse committed by a priest in such matters. Eventually, Ellis received $568,000 from the church. In a statement to the royal commission in March 2014, Pell reversed his earlier stance in support of the defence, saying: "My own view is that the Church in Australia should be able to be sued in cases of this kind."[80]
From here.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th June 2017, 04:50 PM   #15
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,281
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Referring to this perhaps?


From here.
Yes that is the case I was thinking of. I doubt that Pell will have much say about compensation if (when?) he is found guilty.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 07:20 AM   #16
fuelair
Cythraul Enfys
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,226
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
If he is found guilty then the church could also have to pay a huge amount in civil damages. Could also pay a lot in people no longer going to church. So lose of influence.

Edit. Or so I hope. Do you think I am anywhere near right?
Likely and wonderful by me if it happens - way too many abused children due to priest and nun (and, not leaving protestants out, preachers ) treatment of them. Would love to see the abused given a free month or more to respond to their tormentors appropriately. And made wealthy by confiscation of church property. Note: yes, I am certain there are many priest/preachers/nuns who did not do things like this and if they truly never knew it was happening or knew it was and reported it they did right.......
__________________
There is no problem so great that it cannot be fixed by small explosives carefully placed.

Wash this space!

We fight for the Lady Babylon!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 05:36 PM   #17
The Fool
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,177
George not only denied this but he STRENUOUSLY denied it. What more do you witch hunters want?????

I think he also said he thinks child abuse is abhorrent. He must be innocent.
__________________
And what is good, Phaedrus,and what is not good.
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?
R. M. Pirsig. (Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance)

Lose half your IQ....Ask me how.
The Fool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 06:01 PM   #18
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 21,044
Originally Posted by The Fool View Post
George not only denied this but he STRENUOUSLY denied it. What more do you witch hunters want?????

I think he also said he thinks child abuse is abhorrent. He must be innocent.
The actual charges against Pell as an abuser seem like they're going to be difficult to prove. On the other hand, it seems pretty clear he's guilty of covering up for other abusers.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 06:15 PM   #19
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 33,964
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
What is the chance he'll go voluntarily? I heard on the radio that he had announced in an earlier matter that he wanted to go to Australia to defend himself but then his doctors said "he was too ill to travel". Yeah right.

And from the article in the OP:

So he doesn't live in the Vatican, but in Rome. What would Italy do when Australia issues an arrest warrant through Interpol?
Consult their extradition treaty, obviously. Interpol is an information sharing and procedure organizing arrangement. It's not an extranational judicial enforcement agency.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2017, 08:01 PM   #20
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,281
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
The actual charges against Pell as an abuser seem like they're going to be difficult to prove.
Not at all. If it was just one victim then proof would be difficult. However, as other celebrities have shown, if you can parade a string of alleged victims one after another in the same trial then the odds of at least one guilty verdict rise dramatically and the "guilty of one, guilty of them all" mentality takes over.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:33 PM   #21
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 14,281
Guilty!

A jury has found George Pell guilty of raping one choirboy and molesting another in the 1990s.
Quote:
His victims were two 13-year-old boys on scholarships to the prestigious St Kevin’s College.

The pair “nicked off” after a Sunday solemn mass in late 1996 and were caught swigging sacramental wine in the priest’s sacristy by Pell, newly installed as Archbishop of Melbourne.

Pell scolded them, exposed his penis from beneath the ornate ceremonial robes, and molested them.
Quote:
Top defence barrister Robert Richter QC represented Pell in the trial, and during an earlier trial in which the jury was discharged after failing to reach a verdict.

Mr Richter failed to convince the latest jury that the cathedral’s processes were so seamless that two boys simply could not have “nicked off” unseen.

He argued the allegations were a “far-fetched fantasy“, that Pell was always accompanied after mass and that the cumbersome robes would have prevented him revealing his genitals.

“Only a madman would attempt to rape boys in the priest’s sacristy immediately after Sunday solemn mass,” he told the jury.
https://thewest.com.au/news/court-ju...GmMmZwzZRNDlXE
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 25th February 2019 at 10:35 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th February 2019, 10:55 PM   #22
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,302
Think it is already confirmed he is appealing and staunchly crying his innocence still.


Have fun in jail in the interim scumbag
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2019, 12:18 PM   #23
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 8,657
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
A jury has found George Pell guilty of raping one choirboy and molesting another in the 1990s.


https://thewest.com.au/news/court-ju...GmMmZwzZRNDlXE
I can't say I'm really familiar with the details of the construction of priest's robes, but it doesn't seem to me that they would be much of a hindrance to molestation at all, especially if nothing is worn underneath.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2019, 09:47 PM   #24
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,342
The Catholic church is the most successful criminal organization that ever existed.

Wealthy beyond imagination, untouchable, and been around for a long long time. Oh and mostly legal, bada boom bada bing! I don't think it's funny though, it disgusts me.
__________________
Franklin understands certain kickbacks you obtain unfairly are legal liabilities; however, a risky deed's almost never detrimental despite extra external pressures.
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th February 2019, 10:37 PM   #25
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 61,630
And he's off to jail.

George Pell remanded in custody after bail revoked at court hearing for child sex offences

Quote:
Cardinal George Pell has had his bail revoked in the County Court in Melbourne, meaning tonight he will spend his first night behind bars.

A jury found him guilty of sexually abusing two choirboys when he was archbishop of Melbourne in the late 1990s.

Pell will be sentenced on March 13.

"Goodbye you creep," a woman called out as Pell walked from the dock and into custody accompanied by corrections officers.
arthwollipot is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 03:30 AM   #26
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,582
I wasn't following this case and obviously wasn't paying attention during the trial, but this conviction seems highly dubious.

It's pretty much a "he said, he said" case, where the jury has to believe the person saying "he did it" over the person saying "I didn't do it", and there's pretty much no other evidence (unless, of course, there is loads of evidence that isn't mentioned in the news report).

The appeal will be interesting.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 03:48 AM   #27
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,510
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I wasn't following this case and obviously wasn't paying attention during the trial, but this conviction seems highly dubious.

It's pretty much a "he said, he said" case, where the jury has to believe the person saying "he did it" over the person saying "I didn't do it", and there's pretty much no other evidence (unless, of course, there is loads of evidence that isn't mentioned in the news report).

The appeal will be interesting.
Dubious? ******* dubious? Do you understand the ordeal of the abused boy? Do you think all he did was turn up in court and say “he did it”? Nobody goes through this process, where every statement by the victim is belittled, without great damage. Did you bother to look up reports where the best Pell’s lawyers can argue is that this is merely “vanilla” sexual assault? Did you not notice that Pell is not even seeking remand?

Pell had other charges against him, which is why the conviction in December was suppressed. This action was withdrawn after the more substantive conviction. I have spoken to witnesses of this assault in the pool. He would almost certainly been convicted, but the DPP decided Pell was going to do serious time anyway, much to the disgust of the victims of these offences.

This case is as clear cut as sexual assault cases are.

I expect better of you Matthew.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 03:54 AM   #28
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,510
I should add that there were two abused boys, once since dead.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 05:49 AM   #29
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,582
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Dubious? ******* dubious? Do you understand the ordeal of the abused boy? Do you think all he did was turn up in court and say “he did it”? Nobody goes through this process, where every statement by the victim is belittled, without great damage. Did you bother to look up reports where the best Pell’s lawyers can argue is that this is merely “vanilla” sexual assault? Did you not notice that Pell is not even seeking remand?

Pell had other charges against him, which is why the conviction in December was suppressed. This action was withdrawn after the more substantive conviction. I have spoken to witnesses of this assault in the pool. He would almost certainly been convicted, but the DPP decided Pell was going to do serious time anyway, much to the disgust of the victims of these offences.

This case is as clear cut as sexual assault cases are.

I expect better of you Matthew.
OK, you seem to be begging the question with most of this, which is fair enough as he's been found guilty. But it's not really addressing what I wrote.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 07:35 AM   #30
Robin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 9,523
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I wasn't following this case and obviously wasn't paying attention during the trial, but this conviction seems highly dubious.

It's pretty much a "he said, he said" case, where the jury has to believe the person saying "he did it" over the person saying "I didn't do it", and there's pretty much no other evidence (unless, of course, there is loads of evidence that isn't mentioned in the news report).

The appeal will be interesting.
Pell had one of the best barristers in the business. The cross examination would have been thorough and expert. Apparently the jury thought that his account held up.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 07:38 AM   #31
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,582
Yes, it seems so. And juries are fortunately never influenced by anything other than the words they hear in the courtroom.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 08:28 AM   #32
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,451
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This case is as clear cut as sexual assault cases are.

I expect better of you Matthew.

Really? Better than looking at the article, reporting it accurately as having only the hearsay in it asking if there was other evidence and not stating a firm conclusion at all - in light of the doubt.

That's how it's supposed to work, even in the face of the weird things that happen to people's brains where molestation of children is concerned.


He was being s skeptic. You're being a little hysterical. All he wanted was a sight of more evidence - which you state exists in abundance, but still don't supply.


I'm in a bad mood today. Sorry.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 08:32 AM   #33
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,342
The case against the case against Cardinal Pell

"In Cardinal Pell’s first trial, held under the media-suppression order, the defense dismantled the prosecution’s case while shedding light on the inadequacy of the police investigative process; that trial resulted in a hung jury, which voted 10–2 for acquittal. The foreman and several other members of the jury were in tears when the verdict was read.

"During the retrial, the defense demonstrated that, in order to sustain the charge that Pell had accosted and sexually abused two choirboys after Mass one Sunday, ten improbable things would have had to have happened and all within ten minutes..." National Review

On the one hand, the account provided by the National Review seems a bit slanted in the Cardinal's favor. On the other hand, there appear to be some implausibilities in the case of which I was unaware prior to reading this article. I will sit on the fence for a while longer, thank you very much.
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 27th February 2019 at 08:34 AM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 10:28 AM   #34
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,582
Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
I will sit on the fence for a while longer, thank you very much.
That's where I am staying for the time being. There's an appeal still to come for one thing.

It's a problematic case where the only real evidence (as far as I can tell though I am obviously willing to be educated) was the testimony of the victim, which no-one in the media or public was allowed to hear. Obviously the jury heard it, and they are the ones who found him guilty, but I am left wondering what it was exactly that overcame the burden of proof for them.

So, lionking, I am not saying this was a miscarriage of justice, or that Pell is innocent, just that I am not sure enough of his guilt to start virtue signalling by calling him a scumbag, or suggesting that the mere fact that the victim testified at all means that he must be telling the truth, as you seem to be saying.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 10:39 AM   #35
Arcade22
Philosopher
 
Arcade22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 5,166
Here's a balanced and impartial article in the guardian that tries to explain why he was convicted: https://www.theguardian.com/australi...porting-a-word

Based on that and from other statements I have a pretty hard time seeing how this is "as clear cut as sexual assault cases are". I'm not certain whether I'd find him guilty unless the witness testimony (which was held behind closed doors) was really convincing and Pell's defense was obviously faulty.

Quote:
The combination of a compelling witness and Gibson’s measured approach made the offences seem not “improbable” and “impossible” as Richter claimed, but real and painful.
__________________
Freedom you all want, you want freedom. Why then do you haggle over a more or less? Freedom can only be the whole of freedom; a piece of freedom is not freedom. You despair of the possibility of obtaining the whole of freedom, freedom from everything - yes, you consider it insanity even to wish this? - Well, then leave off chasing after the phantom, and spend your pains on something better than the - unattainable. - Max Stirner

Last edited by Arcade22; 27th February 2019 at 10:41 AM.
Arcade22 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 10:54 AM   #36
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,510
Did people miss my point that there were two victims? This alone makes the case against Pell far more convincing.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 11:14 AM   #37
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 43,062
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What exactly did he do?
He committed a...

(wait for it)

CARDINAL sin.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 11:20 AM   #38
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,582
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Did people miss my point that there were two victims? This alone makes the case against Pell far more convincing.
But the second victim didn't testify, what with being dead and all.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 11:27 AM   #39
Chris_Halkides
Philosopher
 
Chris_Halkides's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 9,342
still on the fence

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Did people miss my point that there were two victims? This alone makes the case against Pell far more convincing.
"Before the trial, one of the complainants died, having told his mother that he had never been assaulted." From the National Review link upthread. What evidence is there that he was assaulted?

Here is one of the ten "implausible" things mentioned by the National Review author, "The abused choirboys then entered the choir room, through two locked doors, without anyone noticing, and participated in a post-Mass rehearsal; no one asked why they had been missing for ten minutes."
__________________
“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had
happened.” – Winston Churchill

Last edited by Chris_Halkides; 27th February 2019 at 12:57 PM.
Chris_Halkides is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th February 2019, 12:08 PM   #40
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 20,525
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What are Historical Sex Charges? What exactly did he do? The long article makes no mention of the acts he is being accused of. Do I want to know?

"Funny" how the problem is common enough that we assume it is a child when a priest is involved, yet nobody does anything to stop it.
According to this blogger
https://tessera2009.blogspot.com/201...in-church.html

Quote:
There is some abuse of adult men but a 2008 survey in America found that 96% of the victims were female.

Abuse falls into two categories, congregants and nuns.
She also posts other links to show that sexual abuse of adult women within church is a far larger problem.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:31 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.