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Tags Israel-Palestine conflict

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Old 29th September 2019, 06:39 AM   #241
Cosmic Yak
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I reject your accusations, and it is I who have been arguing that there is such a thing as a population of Palestinians, against people who have been saying otherwise, so I have no further comment to make.
Who has been saying that there is no such thing as a 'population of Palestinians'? Certainly not me.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It is a matter of indifference anyway as Palestine and Jordan are at present different polities mutually recognising each other. They are not the same thing.
Again, you are mistakenly conflating Palestine the area with Palestine the more recent nation, or putative nation.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
To object to fascist sources as biased is not an ad hominem fallacy. What an absurd idea.
It appears you have not actually read the article. Regardless of the site on which it was posted, it displays no trace of fascism, and is factual in its approach.
You have not accepted its contents out of a distaste for the political views of the site owners, not because of any factual errors or unacceptable bias in the piece itself.
Have you actually read it?
More from the decidedly non-fascist author:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/preach...danian-street/
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Old 29th September 2019, 08:05 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Who has been saying that there is no such thing as a 'population of Palestinians'? Certainly not me.


Again, you are mistakenly conflating Palestine the area with Palestine the more recent nation, or putative nation.
That's a trick. You keep changing your definition of what Palestine means to suit your purposes.


Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It appears you have not actually read the article. Regardless of the site on which it was posted, it displays no trace of fascism, and is factual in its approach.
You have not accepted its contents out of a distaste for the political views of the site owners, not because of any factual errors or unacceptable bias in the piece itself.
Have you actually read it?
More from the decidedly non-fascist author:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/preach...danian-street/
Come off it! I cited clear indications of fascist associations from your linked agency; and you apologised for including material from that source, so don't go back on that now, by citing a different piece. What will it be next - Jack and the Beanstalk?
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Old 29th September 2019, 10:33 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's a trick. You keep changing your definition of what Palestine means to suit your purposes.
It's not a trick.
It's called history. Try reading it some time. It may ease your confusion.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Come off it! I cited clear indications of fascist associations from your linked agency; and you apologised for including material from that source, so don't go back on that now, by citing a different piece. What will it be next - Jack and the Beanstalk?
I apologised for posting from a right-wing site.
The article itself is not fascist and I assume from this latest post that you still haven't read it.
I am not going back on it: I stand by the article regardless of its source. I linked to another article on the same subject, by the same author, as an illustration that he is not a fascist. This again appears to have confused you.
I assume again that you didn't read that one either.
Once again. it would help you considerably if you actually read the articles you were commenting on. Then you could make an informed judgement about their validity.
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Old 29th September 2019, 10:12 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Has there ever been a place named "Jewish Palestine" as shown in your linked map, comprising all the territories between the Egyptian and Lebanese border west of the Jordan, but including also the Golan.

Serious question. As the map includes no publisher's name, can you provide me with that information?
A place means what?

A state? No, there has never been a state called Palestine from the beginning of history to 1965.
A people? No, there has never been a people called Palestinians from the beginning of history to 1965.
A separate identity? No, there has never been a separate identity called Palestinian from the beginning of history to 1965.

Up to approximately 1965, Palestinians were thought of as just Arabs with no separate identity and no reason to require a separate state. There was universal agreement on this, including the Palestinians. The only reason why this identity was created and nourished since was to prevent a permanent peace between Arabs and Israel. I daresay the operation was a success.

Having said all that, it's no longer possible to deny the existence of Palestinians as a separate entity.. They may be an artificial nation, built solely to perpetuate a conflict, but they still can be thought of as a separate nation. Therefore they should be considered to have the right to self-determination and their own state My sole proposal is that if this nation is to have a state, the land should be provided by those states who robbed them of their land by launching aggressive, imperialist wars and losing 'Palestine' to the victorious defenders.

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Old 29th September 2019, 10:18 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
A link to his online biography is ad hominem? I've heard of an ad hominem argument, but how can a hyperlink to somebody's own statements about himself be ad hominem? Anyway it's not even an argument. It's an illustration that This is a Zionist source, not an independent one.
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"),[1] short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Your answer is a textbook example of an ad hominem.

Quote:
Is this rubbish post meant to divert my mind from the question I asked? When was Israel called Jewish Palestine? So far as I know it has never borne that name, any more than Jordan has been called Arab Palestine. That is the issue before us at present.
It was considered such by the last nation who controlled the land, prior to the current setup - the British. They had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan).
Jewish Palestine and Arab Palestine are just descriptive names we can use to differentiate between the two.

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Old 30th September 2019, 12:14 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"),[1] short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Your answer is a textbook example of an ad hominem.



It was considered such by the last nation who controlled the land, prior to the current setup - the British. They had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan).
Jewish Palestine and Arab Palestine are just descriptive names we can use to differentiate between the two.

McHrozni
A map of the partition of Palestine may be seen here and it doesn't correspond to the Zionist map.

Last edited by Craig B; 30th September 2019 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 30th September 2019, 12:46 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
A map of the partition of Palestine may be seen here and it doesn't correspond to the Zionist map.
That's probably thanks to the Holocaust. Some 6 millions Jews died in a few years so far fewer settlers were available for the new homeland. Without the Holocaust Palestine issue could easily be resolved by giving Arabs Jordan and giving Israelis what we now know as Palestine.

What of it? History can't be changed.

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Old 30th September 2019, 12:54 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That's probably thanks to the Holocaust. Some 6 millions Jews died in a few years so far fewer settlers were available for the new homeland. Without the Holocaust Palestine issue could easily be resolved by giving Arabs Jordan and giving Israelis what we now know as Palestine.

What of it? History can't be changed.

McHrozni
History can't be changed but your statements about it can be. You have said "had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan)." but I have just shown that Israel doesn't correspond to what the partition granted. You say it's probably thanks to the holocaust, which is preposterous, but it is in fact because Israel has taken territories not assigned to it. Then you say if there were more Jews there would be more settlers "available" for more land. That is pure colonialism. This land is already inhabited.

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Old 30th September 2019, 01:20 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It was considered such by the last nation who controlled the land, prior to the current setup - the British. They had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan).
Jewish Palestine and Arab Palestine are just descriptive names we can use to differentiate between the two.

McHrozni
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
A map of the partition of Palestine may be seen here and it doesn't correspond to the Zionist map.
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That's probably thanks to the Holocaust.

McHrozni
No, it's not because of the Holocaust.
What McHrozni's map shows is the original British Mandate, dated 1922.
What CraigB's map shows is the UN Partition Plan, dated 1947.
The latter is smaller because Transjordan has already been hived off to form Jordan.
There are a number of sources for the map of the British Mandate. here is one from the decidedly non-Zionist BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...sh_control.stm

Here's another, from edmaps, which also does not appear to be a Zionist source:
https://www.edmaps.com/html/palestine_in_ten_maps.html

The confusion is arising because two different plans, from two different eras and two different organisations, are being treated as if they were the same thing.
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:32 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, it's not because of the Holocaust.
What McHrozni's map shows is the original British Mandate, dated 1922.
What CraigB's map shows is the UN Partition Plan, dated 1947.
The latter is smaller because Transjordan has already been hived off to form Jordan.
There are a number of sources for the map of the British Mandate. here is one from the decidedly non-Zionist BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...sh_control.stm

Here's another, from edmaps, which also does not appear to be a Zionist source:
https://www.edmaps.com/html/palestine_in_ten_maps.html

The confusion is arising because two different plans, from two different eras and two different organisations, are being treated as if they were the same thing.
My point is if it weren't for the Holocaust, Israel would cover the West Bank and Gaza from the onset.

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Old 30th September 2019, 01:37 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
History can't be changed but your statements about it can be. You have said "had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan)." but I have just shown that Israel doesn't correspond to what the partition granted. You say it's probably thanks to the holocaust, which is preposterous, but it is in fact because Israel has taken territories not assigned to it.
Israel has taken territories in a defensive war, which was launched by the neighbors of Israel with the explicit intent to commit a genocide over the Isralies.

Ample precendens exist for anenxing territory in such instance and expelling the population. Prussia, Slesia, Dalmatia, Istra, Kaliningrad oblast, Crimea and more. Precendens exist for just expelling the unwanted population because their ethnic group was against you in a war - Algeria. Precendens exist for expelling hostile population because their brethren expelled your population - partition of India. It's called population exchance.

Yet for Israel to follow precendens is unconcionable. You keep embarassing yourself.

Quote:
Then you say if there were more Jews there would be more settlers "available" for more land. That is pure colonialism. This land is already inhabited.
With an extra 6 million Jews there would be no real reason to expell anybody. Arabs in Israel are only a problem if they are too numerous to be more than a managable minority (<20%). Give Israel another 6 million Jews and the 800,000 Arabs can stay in peace. There's no reason to want them out, there is ample land for everybody.

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Old 30th September 2019, 02:20 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What of it? History can't be changed.
That's what I think, but you evidently think differently
Jordan used to be called "Arab Palestine".
That's a change. When was it called Arab Palestine? It has been called "Transjordan" and "Jordan", but "Arab Palestine" was never its name. It is a Zionist-colonialist description of what Jordan's function is in the Zionist scheme of things, but it was never called by that name.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:36 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
My point is if it weren't for the Holocaust, Israel would cover the West Bank and Gaza from the onset.

McHrozni
Do you have evidence for the idea that the borders of Israel were reduced because of the Holocaust?
The area was historically seriously underpopulated, as census figures from the Ottoman Empire show. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't see how it would make much difference, given the low population levels there.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:42 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

With an extra 6 million Jews there would be no real reason to expell anybody. Arabs in Israel are only a problem if they are too numerous to be more than a managable minority (<20%). Give Israel another 6 million Jews and the 800,000 Arabs can stay in peace. There's no reason to want them out, there is ample land for everybody.

McHrozni
I suspect this super colonialist terminology is now satire on your part. See text I have hilited. That looks like a statement by Kipling about how many of the lesser breeds are to be permitted to remain in a Crown Colony before they become a "problem" and need to be expelled.

There is probably not ample land for another 6,8m people in Israel. Wiki notes
In an academic article, Jewish National Fund Board member Daniel Orenstein, argues that, as elsewhere, overpopulation is a stressor on the environment in Israel; he shows that environmentalists have conspicuously failed to consider the impact of population on the environment, and argues that overpopulation in Israel has not been appropriately addressed for ideological reasons.
I think your ideology has blinded you to various facts.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:45 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
Do you have evidence for the idea that the borders of Israel were reduced because of the Holocaust?
The area was historically seriously underpopulated, as census figures from the Ottoman Empire show. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't see how it would make much difference, given the low population levels there.
No, I do not. I'm making an assumption I believe to be sensible. Fewer Jews need less land to house them, that's why the initial partition plan was so generous towards the Arabs.

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Old 30th September 2019, 02:48 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
I suspect this super colonialist terminology is now satire on your part. See text I have hilited. That looks like a statement by Kipling about how many of the lesser breeds are to be permitted to remain in a Crown Colony before they become a "problem" and need to be expelled.

There is probably not ample land for another 6,8m people in Israel. Wiki notes
In an academic article, Jewish National Fund Board member Daniel Orenstein, argues that, as elsewhere, overpopulation is a stressor on the environment in Israel; he shows that environmentalists have conspicuously failed to consider the impact of population on the environment, and argues that overpopulation in Israel has not been appropriately addressed for ideological reasons.
I think your ideology has blinded you to various facts.
Enviroment degradation is indeed a problem, but that's universal and not limited to Israel.

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Old 30th September 2019, 03:02 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, it's not because of the Holocaust.
What McHrozni's map shows is the original British Mandate, dated 1922.
What CraigB's map shows is the UN Partition Plan, dated 1947.
The latter is smaller because Transjordan has already been hived off to form Jordan.
There are a number of sources for the map of the British Mandate. here is one from the decidedly non-Zionist BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...sh_control.stm

Here's another, from edmaps, which also does not appear to be a Zionist source:
https://www.edmaps.com/html/palestine_in_ten_maps.html

The confusion is arising because two different plans, from two different eras and two different organisations, are being treated as if they were the same thing.
and I'm saying that the map shows Palestine W of Jordan, and it was not all allocated for Jewish colonisation at partition. McHrozi has stated that
British ... had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan).
But the partition didn't divide the areas into present Israel and present Jordan, as McHrozni states. The line was different.
In 1922 the area W of the Jordan river
In Palestine, the Balfour Declaration's "national home for the Jewish people" was to be established alongside the Palestinian Arabs, who composed the vast majority of the local population.
So the idea that the whole of that area plus Golan was a "Jewish Palestine" in its entirely in 1922, is a Zionist phantasm.

Last edited by Craig B; 30th September 2019 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:14 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
and I'm saying that the map shows Palestine W of Jordan, and it was not all allocated for Jewish colonisation at partition. McHrozi has stated that
British ... had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan).
But the partition didn't divide the areas into present Israel and present Jordan, as McHrozni states. The line was different.
In 1922 the area W of the Jordan river
In Palestine, the Balfour Declaration's "national home for the Jewish people" was to be established alongside the Palestinian Arabs, who composed the vast majority of the local population.
It's McHrozni, not McHrozi.

I don't see what's wrong with the Balfour decleration. They picked what was the emptiest part of the British empire, the part the Jews desired for almost two thousand years, and gave it over the the Jews for internal migration, maintaining minority rights should be respected - as they are in Israel proper.

Most Jews in Palestine were recent arrivals, that much is true. Yet, that was also how Arabs came to the land centuries prior. If you wish to dimiss Jewish claims on that basis you first need to either determine how long do such claims last and justify the result, or else claim the land should be cleansed of Arabs anyway, because they too displaced the previous inhabitants.

I'm looking forward to your solution!

The issue of Israel becomes far less controversial the moment you acknowledge the same rules should apply to both sides. No matter how you slice it, the case for Palestine collapses like a house of cards

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(and not McHrozi)
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:40 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's McHrozni, not McHrozi.

I don't see what's wrong with the Balfour decleration. They picked what was the emptiest part of the British empire, the part the Jews desired for almost two thousand years, and gave it over the the Jews for internal migration, maintaining minority rights should be respected - as they are in Israel proper.

Most Jews in Palestine were recent arrivals, that much is true. Yet, that was also how Arabs came to the land centuries prior. If you wish to dimiss Jewish claims on that basis you first need to either determine how long do such claims last and justify the result, or else claim the land should be cleansed of Arabs anyway, because they too displaced the previous inhabitants.

I'm looking forward to your solution!

The issue of Israel becomes far less controversial the moment you acknowledge the same rules should apply to both sides. No matter how you slice it, the case for Palestine collapses like a house of cards

McHrozni
(and not McHrozi)
I didn't say anything was wrong with the Balfour declaration. I merely said that it didn't assign the whole of the area W of the Jordan River (plus Golan) to Jewish settlement. You say it did. You also say that it is permissible for settlers to clear land of its population on grounds of ethnicity. I don't agree and I perceive that to be colonialist. You say others have done it as well as Israeli Jews. Unfortunately that is true, but it doesn't absolve Israel to observe that in the past there have been other etho-religious colonial empires. If I steal a bike and am arrested for it, I won't defend myself by saying: other people have stolen bikes in the past. So why are you picking on me?

I am a consistent opponent of empires, wherever and whenever they appear.
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:47 AM   #260
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
You also say that it is permissible for settlers to clear land of its population on grounds of ethnicity. I don't agree and I perceive that to be colonialist. You say others have done it as well as Israeli Jews. Unfortunately that is true, but it doesn't absolve Israel to observe that in the past there have been other etho-religious colonial empires.
Really? Prove it.

Show me the thread or threads where you spoke of the horrific treatment of, say, Jews on the hands of Arab states, after 1949. About as many had to flee their homes without compensation and settled in Israel.

Where is your concern for their well-being? If your concern for their well-being is not comparible to the concern you express here for Palestinians I'm afraid I caught you in a lie.

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Old 30th September 2019, 04:05 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Really? Prove it.

Show me the thread or threads where you spoke of the horrific treatment of, say, Jews on the hands of Arab states, after 1949. About as many had to flee their homes without compensation and settled in Israel.

Where is your concern for their well-being? If your concern for their well-being is not comparible to the concern you express here for Palestinians I'm afraid I caught you in a lie.

McHrozni
See my post #113, which was in fact a response to a post by yourself.

I will not be called a liar by you. You have gone too far. And I intend to report your comment to the mods.
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Old 30th September 2019, 04:17 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Really? Prove it.

McHrozni
Prove what?
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Old 30th September 2019, 04:24 AM   #263
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
See my post #113, which was in fact a response to a post by yourself.
You don't oppose laws to permit Jews to return, yet you demand Jews allow some other group to return to Israel.

There is a profound difference between the two. Your position is hypocritical.

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Old 30th September 2019, 04:25 AM   #264
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Prove what?
That your position is not hypocritical.

You thus far proven it is utterly hypocritical and you have done so twice in a row. Make the third attempt count, will you?

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Old 30th September 2019, 04:31 AM   #265
Craig B
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That your position is not hypocritical.

You thus far proven it is utterly hypocritical and you have done so twice in a row. Make the third attempt count, will you?

McHrozni
I'll let the mods comment on it.
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Old 30th September 2019, 04:42 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You don't oppose laws to permit Jews to return, yet you demand Jews allow some other group to return to Israel.

There is a profound difference between the two. Your position is hypocritical.

McHrozni
There is no hypocrisy in this position. It's not the case that I merely "don't oppose" return of Jews to eg Egypt. I state
Let them return with at least the rights given to Sephardim by Spain, or more rights than that. I would like to see that. The disappearance of Jewish communities in Egypt and other Muslim countries has been a cultural loss of immense magnitude for the world. Any project to undo this loss has my full support.
That is unambiguous, that I actively support such return. You've either not read what I have written or you are misrepresenting it for ideological reasons. It also reveals my timescale of how long injustices last. The Spanish case since 1492. Descendants of Jews expelled then have every right to receive Spanish citizenship on favourable terms, and Israel was correct to welcome that reparation to Sephardic Jews.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:58 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I won't get into a discussion of legality but annexing the West Bank would be a really stupid idea.
Yea just crush them and leave it uninhabitable. Why they are making good progress on the power grid and getting rid of unnecessary crap like that.

So much for the ideas of property rights, it all goes to who can take it like the settlements show.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:00 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You can't deinstrialize a country that never had industry. We couldn't depopulate Mars if we wanted to.
Funny 20 years ago they had power for more than 24 hours straight, to bad that now never happened and we rewrite the history to get rid of it. It is like how now retroactively flint never had lead free water in the first place. Hence you can't hold anyone accountable for the lead in the water now.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:06 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That's probably thanks to the Holocaust. Some 6 millions Jews died in a few years so far fewer settlers were available for the new homeland. Without the Holocaust Palestine issue could easily be resolved by giving Arabs Jordan and giving Israelis what we now know as Palestine.
Yep like in india where they solved the hindu muslim difficulties with the partitioning. Now any foolish muslims in india deserve what the hindu nationalist government has planned for them. They were supposed to be cleansed from the country as intended. That is why there are no issues in the area now.
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Old 30th September 2019, 11:51 AM   #270
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This thread has some interesting ideas on how to manage the allowable rate of minorities in a liberal democracy. Just think how this can next be applied to non white populations in america and their ethnic cleansing. As a white nation america clearly needs to manage the allowed percentage of non white "citizens" like all nations do.
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Old 30th September 2019, 12:31 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This thread has some interesting ideas on how to manage the allowable rate of minorities in a liberal democracy. Just think how this can next be applied to non white populations in america and their ethnic cleansing. As a white nation america clearly needs to manage the allowed percentage of non white "citizens" like all nations do.
That's not how things went in the USA. The principle that the USA is s "white" country which can and must "manage" numerically its non-white citizens because only whites have the right to national self determination there, has not been formalised. Instead, a Civil Rights movement developed, in which the principle was enunciated that all citizens of whatever ethnicity or pigmentation were entitled to the same constitutional status.
Unfortunately Zionism is travelling along a different road.
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Old 30th September 2019, 10:33 PM   #272
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Funny 20 years ago they had power for more than 24 hours straight, to bad that now never happened and we rewrite the history to get rid of it. It is like how now retroactively flint never had lead free water in the first place. Hence you can't hold anyone accountable for the lead in the water now.
Electricity does not equal industry, nor does industry equal electricity. Try again.

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Old 30th September 2019, 10:43 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yep like in india where they solved the hindu muslim difficulties with the partitioning. Now any foolish muslims in india deserve what the hindu nationalist government has planned for them. They were supposed to be cleansed from the country as intended. That is why there are no issues in the area now.
That's the situation in Pakistan, if you swap the Muslim in India for Hindus in Pakistan and vice versa.

The solution is not perfect, but given that 20 million people lost their homes and up to 2 million people died, the silence of advocates of Palestine is deafening. The only time they care about genocide is when Jews are involved.

Ditto for Jews who lost everything and had to flee Arab states in 1949-60 period. Where's the activism for that? CraigB gives it lip service when prompted to keep up apperances, which is arguably worse than just ignoring the episode.

Apparently wholesale expulsions of millions of people are fine, so long as Jews don't benefit from it. Expulsion of non-Jews by non-Jews are ignored, you completely miss the point if you think "India still has problems" addresses the issue. An expulsion of Jews by non-Jews are cherished with dark sarcasm ("they should be allowed to return") and expulsion of non-Jews by Jews is a justification for a genocide over the Jews, because the Jews did it first and should be expelled back to the countries that exiled them.

Yeah, sure. That's a solution.

I have yet to see an advocate of the Palestinian cause demonstrate they care about Palestine for reasons other than anti-semitism. Possible ways to demonstrate:

1. Prove you care about other similar events that happened concurrently, I listed plenty.
2. Prove you want to avoid a genocide over the Isralies by proposing a solution that avoids it.
3. Provide reasons why the plans that give Palestinians a state, but you consider unacceptable, aren't unacceptable because Israelis don't get genocided upon.

Other possibilities exist, these are just the ones I can tell you are entirely lacking from the discourse - yours, CraigBs and all the others.

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Old 1st October 2019, 01:37 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by McHrozni;12839533%5
CraigB gives it lip service when prompted to keep up apperances, which is arguably worse than just ignoring the episode ... entirely lacking from the discourse - yours, CraigBs and all the others.

McHrozni
This is plumb loco. I get accused of not being concerned about expulsions of Jews from Muslim countries. I prove from previous posts that that is not so. What happens? I am told my concern is worse than ignoring the expulsions. And that people are indignant about Palestine only because they want to "genocide" (verb) Jews

Can this be confronted by reasoned argument? Of course not! Only satire and irony are able to deal with it.

How about this? Spain has repudiated the 1492 expulsions of Jews and is restoring on specially favourable terms the citizenship of descendants of these expelled Sephardim, even after 527 years. I have said that's good and it should happen in all countries which Jews have been compelled to leave for political reasons. Do I really believe this? No of course not! I really want Jews to return to Spain so that they will be "genocided" again there by the inquisition. Therefore my attitude is lip service and arguably worse than wanting Jews to be expelled from Spain.

How does McHrozni know that these bad things are in my mind? That I don't mean what I write and have merely been prompted to keep up appearances, when I claim in writing to have a particular opinion. Well, it's because Zionists can read minds. And in minds they read bad things.

Last edited by Craig B; 1st October 2019 at 01:44 AM.
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Old 1st October 2019, 01:44 AM   #275
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This is plumb loco. I get accused of not being concerned about expulsions of Jews from Muslim countries. I prove from previous posts that that is not so. What happens? I am told my concern is worse than ignoring the expulsions.
Yes, suggesting a solution in which the Jews return to countries that publish The Protocols of Elders of Zion and teach the young about them in school is worse than not caring at all.

At least those not caring at all don't suggest a cynical way to go about genocide over the Jews twice.

Quote:
And that people are indignant about Palestine only because they want to "genocide" (verb) Jews
I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. Below a facade of humanitarianism every Palestinian activist is either:
1. Hopelessly ignorant about the scope and scale of the problem or
2. A hopeless anti-semite that is using the question of Palestine as an excuse to bash the Jews.

I suspect many are both.

Quote:
How about this? Spain has repudiated the 1492 expulsions of Jews and is restoring on specially favourable terms the citizenship of descendants of these expelled Sephardim, even after 527 years.
Not a problem, but also not a solution to the problem of recent expulsions of Jews from Arab world, which became malignantly obsessed with Jew-hating in recent decades.

Quote:
I have said that's good and it should happen in all countries which Jews have been compelled to leave for political reasons. Do I really believe this? No of course not! I really want Jews to return to Spain so that they will be "genocided" again there by the inquisition. Therefore my attitude is lip service and arguably worse than wanting Jews to be expelled from Spain.
You know full well the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492 is not the same event that also drove the Jews from Arabia in 1949-1960.

Or maybe you don't and needed to be told that. Either way ignorance is no longer the excuse.

Quote:
How does McHrozni know that these bad things are in my mind? Zionists can read minds, don't you know. And in minds they read bad things.
No, I just follow your argument to a logical conclusion. Examining the argument for possible flaws is a wonderful tool. You should try it sometime.

Like with Palestinians carving out a state from Egypt and Jordan, as compensation for their land those two states squandered in aggressive imperialist wars.

I have yet to see a reason why that would be a bad idea.

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Old 1st October 2019, 02:17 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, suggesting a solution in which the Jews return to countries that publish The Protocols of Elders of Zion and teach the young about them in school is worse than not caring at all.

At least those not caring at all don't suggest a cynical way to go about genocide over the Jews twice.
I thought I was being satirical in joking that Spanish Jews were to return to the inquisition to be genocided, but that's what McHrozni really thinks I must have in mind. There is no way even to satirise this. At least in his writing genocide is no longer a verb, and we now have the expression "to go about genocide" which is an improvement.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
You know full well the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492 is not the same event that also drove the Jews from Arabia in 1949-1960.

Or maybe you don't and needed to be told that. Either way ignorance is no longer the excuse.
Do I know that 1492 is not 1949? No I need McHrozni to tell me that. I was trying to say that if an injustice can be repudiated after 527 years it certainly can be after 70 years, but that concept is beyond the scope of minds that can observe only bad things in the minds of others around them. But what if there are no bad things in these minds?
No problem. We can be personally provocative. Then bad things will enter the minds of those around us, which we will can ascribe to a desire to genocide Jews. Trick never fails.
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Examining the argument for possible flaws is a wonderful tool. You should try it sometime.
I try it often, and your posts generously provide me with useful material.
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Old 1st October 2019, 02:30 AM   #277
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Do I know that 1492 is not 1949? No I need McHrozni to tell me that.
Well, I'm glad we cleared that up. I know it's confusing with all the 1s and 9s, but trust me, 1492 is not 1949.

Quote:
I was trying to say that if an injustice can be repudiated after 527 years it certainly can be after 70 years
The claim is baseless and without merit. A repudiation in 1560 would be a joke in bad taste. It wasn't until 19th century that Spain changed enough to even consider such action to be more than a tasteless provocation.

Arabic world has gone from bad to worse in the meantime. I doubt this would be a solution prior to 2200s.

Quote:
I try it often
You fail at it often at any rate. You should try explaining why carving a new Palestine out of Egypt and Jordan would not work.

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Old 1st October 2019, 03:09 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's not how things went in the USA. The principle that the USA is s "white" country which can and must "manage" numerically its non-white citizens because only whites have the right to national self determination there, has not been formalised.
But it can be and wouldn't be some kind of moral problem.
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Old 1st October 2019, 03:11 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post

Jordan used to be called "Arab Palestine".

https://www.mythsandfacts.org/confli..._palestine.jpg

I'm fine if it regains the name.

McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Can you tell me when and by whom Jordan was given the name "Arab Palestine"? Your linked source is a Zionist map, which even includes Golan in "Jewish Palestine", but there is nothing I can see that calls Jordan Arab Palestine in the current or former names of that country as noted in wiki.
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
No, it's not because of the Holocaust.
What McHrozni's map shows is the original British Mandate, dated 1922.
What CraigB's map shows is the UN Partition Plan, dated 1947.
The latter is smaller because Transjordan has already been hived off to form Jordan.
There are a number of sources for the map of the British Mandate. here is one from the decidedly non-Zionist BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/h...sh_control.stm

Here's another, from edmaps, which also does not appear to be a Zionist source:
https://www.edmaps.com/html/palestine_in_ten_maps.html

The confusion is arising because two different plans, from two different eras and two different organisations, are being treated as if they were the same thing.
I believe that McHrozni is wrong in saying that Transjordan used to be called 'Arab Palestine'. This, surely, is the epithet given by the partition plan under the British Mandate. Prior to this, it was all just Palestine.
I believe CraigB is wrong in calling this a Zionist map. It is not: it is a British map dating from 1922, the time of the Mandate, showing their proposed partition. It is not a claim by Zionists on this area.
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Old 1st October 2019, 03:17 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
and I'm saying that the map shows Palestine W of Jordan, and it was not all allocated for Jewish colonisation at partition. McHrozi has stated that
British ... had the Mandate of Palestine and cut it up in two parts: one for the Jews (now called Israel) and one for Arabs (now called Jordan).
But the partition didn't divide the areas into present Israel and present Jordan, as McHrozni states. The line was different.
Before I comment on this, I need to know which map you are referring to.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
In 1922 the area W of the Jordan river
In Palestine, the Balfour Declaration's "national home for the Jewish people" was to be established alongside the Palestinian Arabs, who composed the vast majority of the local population.
So the idea that the whole of that area plus Golan was a "Jewish Palestine" in its entirely in 1922, is a Zionist phantasm.
I think you are reading things into the 1922 map that are not there. On what basis do you claim that anyone was saying that the entire area was Jewish, as in populated exclusively by Jews? As I have mentioned above, the labels on the 1922 map show the proposed country divisions, not an ethnic split or a claim about demographics.
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