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Tags albert einstein , cern , neutrinos , relativity , speed of light

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Old 22nd September 2011, 05:20 PM   #41
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Hilarious that it's a lead story on Google news now, with screaming "Einstein turned on his head!" headlines.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 05:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
I thought GPS always worked by phase. Isn't that why you need at least four (instead of three) satellites in view at any one time?
No; for large enough distances, you don't need to look at phase information. The frequencies are between around 1 and 1.5 GHz. About 5 cm.

OK, so this is an ideal, and there are multiple satellites in different directions, so phase information can help. Still, once you get to a couple of meters, who cares?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 05:29 PM   #43
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Quantum tunneling
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Quantum Tunnelling is the quantum mechanical effect that permits a particle to pass through a barrier when it does not have enough energy to do so classically. You can do a calculation of the time it takes a particle to tunnel through such a barrier. The answer you get can come out less than the time it takes light to cover the distance at speed c. Does this provide a means of FTL communication?
Ref: T. E. Hartman, J. Appl. Phys. 33, 3427 (1962).

The answer must surely be "No!"—otherwise our understanding of QED is very suspect. Yet a group of physicists have performed experiments that seem to suggest that FTL communication by quantum tunneling is possible. They claim to have transmitted Mozart's 40th Symphony through a barrier 11.4cm wide at a speed of 4.7c. Their interpretation is, of course, very controversial. Most physicists say this is a quantum effect where no information can actually be passed at FTL speeds. If the effect is real it is difficult to see why it should not be possible to transmit signals into the past by placing the apparatus in a fast-moving frame of reference.
Refs:
W. Heitmann and G. Nimtz, Phys. Lett. A196, 154 (1994);
A. Enders and G. Nimtz, Phys. Rev. E48, 632 (1993).

Terence Tao has pointed out that apparent FTL transmission of an audio signal over such a short distance is not very impressive. The signal takes less than 0.4 ns to travel the 11.4 cm at light speed, but it is quite easy to anticipate an audio signal ahead of time by up to 1000 ns simply by extrapolating the signal waveform. Although this is not what is being done in the above experiments, it does illustrate that the experimenters will need to use a much higher frequency random signal, or transmit over much larger distances, if they are to demonstrate FTL information transfer convincingly.

The likely conclusion is that there is no real FTL communication taking place, and that the effect is another manifestation of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.
However, I heard a rebuttal to this where music was transmitted faster than light as evidence communication could indeed be transmitted. It was on NOVA or something.

Beyond that exposure to the information, I know nothing.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 05:35 PM   #44
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Particles travel faster than speed of light

Hey ST dweebs don't toss them unis yet

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7KM3UU20110922
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Old 22nd September 2011, 05:36 PM   #45
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Posted yesterday.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 05:43 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by epepke View Post
No; for large enough distances, you don't need to look at phase information. The frequencies are between around 1 and 1.5 GHz. About 5 cm.
That's the carrier frequency. The phase info GPS uses under normal operation isn't of the carrier wave.

Quote:
OK, so this is an ideal, and there are multiple satellites in different directions, so phase information can help. Still, once you get to a couple of meters, who cares?
I don't think so. I'm pretty sure GPS always uses phase (just not carrier phase). According to wiki, the frequency of the embedded signal is around a MHz for the civilian band, which translates into ~meter accuracies. But you always need four satellites - if GPS used roundtrip timing instead, you'd only need three.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 05:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Quantum tunnelingHowever, I heard a rebuttal to this where music was transmitted faster than light as evidence communication could indeed be transmitted. It was on NOVA or something.

Beyond that exposure to the information, I know nothing.
According to the known laws of physics, quantum effects cannot transmit information of any kind faster than light, full stop.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 06:23 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
How exactly to you measure a distance of 732km through the earth to an accuracy of a few meters.... other than by the travel time of neutrinos?
Military GPS can do that for you. And can measure the expansion and contraction of the planet from day to night.

ETA: I should have read on before replying.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 06:23 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
To 50cm accuracy, over 700km of Alps?
Probably. Didn't old-school transits do at least that well over hundreds of miles? How accurate were mountain heights measured bit by bit all the way from the ocean via water leveling hoses?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 06:28 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
Probably. Didn't old-school transits do at least that well over hundreds of miles? How accurate were mountain heights measured bit by bit all the way from the ocean via water leveling hoses?
With good instruments and great care you can get wonderful accuracy. Distant targets are a problem because of air refraction, however.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 07:06 PM   #51
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Clearly this explains why Michelson and Morley failed to find the luminiferous ether:- they didn't look for it underground!

I read about this on the BBC an hour ago . My own thought was exactly that of Sol Invictus- how do we measure a straight line through the mountains? Obviously they must feel confident about this, but I'd like to see a second run at right angles to the existing one. (Hey, it's only money!). I guess a crosscheck is more or less what the team involved would like too.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 07:28 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by BenBurch View Post
With good instruments and great care you can get wonderful accuracy. Distant targets are a problem because of air refraction, however.
GPS has a roughly analogous problem with ionosphere/troposphere effects. There are ways to deal with it (using both the L1 and L2 signals is a good start), but it's still a significant term in the error budget.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 07:35 PM   #53
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Faster than Light Neutrinos at CERN?



http://www.newsday.com/business/roll...1.3192338?qr=1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...zKoK_blog.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...eed-light.html

Thoughts?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 07:41 PM   #54
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My thoughts are that this was posted yesterday and again today....



Looks like this is the main thread for now.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=220086
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Old 22nd September 2011, 07:52 PM   #55
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Could a significantly dense enough mass within the mountain, (metal vein etc) significantly alter the result enough to perhaps produce such a result?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 07:55 PM   #56
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No, this was posted today but went back to yesterday to compensate for some quantum echo effect.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 07:56 PM   #57
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Pardon my ignorance. What are the implications if this is indeed true?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:00 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Pardon my ignorance. What are the implications if this is indeed true?
It's impossible under the known laws of physics. So, if it's true, those laws are wrong. And not wrong in a small way - faster than light propagation, even if only by a little, means that the particle is propagating back in time in someone's reference frame.

There are ways you might be able to modify physics to make this possible and not cause everything to melt down - but no one has ever come up with a theory that allows that and is also consistent with everything else we know.

In short, one of the best-tested features of nature says this is impossible.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:05 PM   #59
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That's why I think this is so interesting. Odds are pretty heavy it's just a measurement error hidden away somewhere. But I like entertaining the idea that maybe it isn't. Neutrinos do have mass, correct? What would going faster than the speed of light do to that mass? I'm pretty sure their mass hasn't become infinite simply because we're still here.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:07 PM   #60
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How are all the gravitational effects calculated, especially with the Alps sitting above the path?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:12 PM   #61
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Sol, Thanks for the explaination. The LHC is a wonderment to me. Seems that nothing IS sacred.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:13 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
How are all the gravitational effects calculated, especially with the Alps sitting above the path?
Do you mean gravitational effects on the neutrinos? I think those are negligible - they're relativistic, so there will just be a tiny curvature of the path due to the gravity of the earth.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:18 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Mister Earl View Post
Neutrinos do have mass, correct?
Yes.

Quote:
What would going faster than the speed of light do to that mass?
It's impossible. Or rather if it's possible, the whole notion of "mass" needs to be re-examined.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:21 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
Do you mean gravitational effects on the neutrinos? I think those are negligible - they're relativistic, so there will just be a tiny curvature of the path due to the gravity of the earth.

I think I let myself get a little confused about somethings, and the question really was coming from a position of ignorance. The reference frame is the Earth, so the observed speed of the neutrino isn't bothered by any gravitational time-dilation effects the neutrino might experience. Correct?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:28 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
I think I let myself get a little confused about somethings, and the question really was coming from a position of ignorance. The reference frame is the Earth, so the observed speed of the neutrino isn't bothered by any gravitational time-dilation effects the neutrino might experience. Correct?
If you have a good model of the Earth's gravitational potential (they exist), then you can talk about the gravitational time dilation between the emitter and the detector, which may affect measurements. But Φ/c ~ 7E-10 on Earth's surface, so it's hard to see what kind of kind of relevance gravitational time dilation would have to a discrepancy of the claimed magnitude.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:30 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
I think I let myself get a little confused about somethings, and the question really was coming from a position of ignorance. The reference frame is the Earth, so the observed speed of the neutrino isn't bothered by any gravitational time-dilation effects the neutrino might experience. Correct?
Oh, I see. Well, if CERN and Gran Sasso were at significantly different values of the gravitational potential, that could cause some complications (because for example clocks would run at different rates and so would not stay synced). But I don't think those effects are important here; they're too small (they are important for the GPS system, though).
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:33 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Vorpal View Post
But Φ/c ~ 7E-10 on Earth's surface, so it's hard to see what kind of kind of relevance gravitational time dilation would have to a discrepancy of the claimed magnitude.
It is hard to see, but you do have to be a little careful - the difference could accumulate over time. That's why it matters for the GPS satellites - their clocks are adjusted to run at a different rate than earth clocks, to compensate for the combination of gravitational and Lorentz time dilation, and even so I think they have to be re-synced periodically.

But I agree, I don't see how that could come into play here.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 08:41 PM   #68
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Multiple universes says this is an alternate thread.



http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=220086
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Old 22nd September 2011, 09:03 PM   #69
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Do you care to explain how this is any different than electrons exceeding c in dielectric water?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 09:08 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ServiceSoon View Post
Do you care to explain how this is any different than electrons exceeding c in dielectric water?
Because you've misunderstood Cherenkov Radiation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation

electrons never exceed the speed of the universal constant c.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 09:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
It is hard to see, but you do have to be a little careful - the difference could accumulate over time. That's why it matters for the GPS satellites - their clocks are adjusted to run at a different rate than earth clocks, to compensate for the combination of gravitational and Lorentz time dilation, and even so I think they have to be re-synced periodically.
You know, for all the gigabytes of GPS data I have, I really don't know if the clocks were deliberately tweaked to put out their reference signal at some terrestrial rate (10.23 MHz, I think). I'll try to check on it tomorrow. I suspect that the adjustment is actually imbedded in the definitions of the parameters included in the nav messaage, though.

But I can address the update thing with more confidence. The clock correction is part of the nav message that the spacecraft continuously sends. IIRC, the nav messages (including clock correction updates) are typically updated every 24 hours, though there's no technical reason they couldn't be updated much more or less often. Of course, there are practical considerations.

[/GPS]
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:12 PM   #72
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Discovery of tachyons reported?

http://www.livescience.com/16183-fas...akthrough.html

The article describes neutrinos moving faster than 15c or 15 times the speed of light in a vacuum. I don't know why they are reporting that special relativity must be violated here because it simply could be tachyons depending on how the experiments were conducted.

Particles can permanently travel faster than light according to special relativity, but they cannot accelerate past the light barrier. Unless they observed acceleration beyond the speed of light, why couldn't they speculate that tachyons have been found?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:20 PM   #73
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This isn't the first rumor of a violation of C.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:23 PM   #74
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Tachyons are already confirmed to exist. Haven't you watched Star Trek?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:25 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by sol invictus View Post
According to the known laws of physics, quantum effects cannot transmit information of any kind faster than light, full stop.
That's what the standard answer is, but in the program I saw, music was transmitted and the researcher said, he thought the music was indeed information.

I'm not certain either way. But I found the researcher credible.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:30 PM   #76
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Anybody else wondering when will we see the first crackpot thread that claims this validates their crazy 'theory'?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:33 PM   #77
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I'm still stuck on the "mass going to infinite and requiring infinite energy when it reaches the speed of light" thing. That sounds like the kind of thing you'd notice long before anything else.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:42 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's what the standard answer is, but in the program I saw, music was transmitted and the researcher said, he thought the music was indeed information.
Music certainly contains information. But I'm extremely skeptical of the claim that music was transmitted faster than the speed of light. Do you have a cite for that?
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Old 22nd September 2011, 10:54 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Astrodude View Post
http://www.livescience.com/16183-fas...akthrough.html

The article describes neutrinos moving faster than 15c or 15 times the speed of light in a vacuum. I don't know why they are reporting that special relativity must be violated here because it simply could be tachyons depending on how the experiments were conducted.
Never was it so easy to debunk.

The particles were observed to be traveling at about 20 parts per million faster than the speed of light.

Very interesting, of course, but still fairly small. It could easily be an error in measurement, either of the experiment itself or of the accepted value of c. It's already known that the signal speed of light in a vacuum is a bit slower than c because of interactions with virtual particles due to quantum fluctuations in the vacuum. It's also known that neutrinos interact only very weakly.
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Old 22nd September 2011, 11:25 PM   #80
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Already a thread on this?:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=220086
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