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Tags autism , vaccinations , vaccines

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Old 30th September 2011, 06:59 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Wow! You have no data but are "sure" about something. Something that you could get 100% of the data required to support your claim with just a few mouse clicks.
Am I wrong?
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Old 30th September 2011, 07:00 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Wow! You have no data but are "sure" about something. Something that you could get 100% of the data required to support your claim with just a few mouse clicks.
Dude, she was correct..............so wouldn't that normally take some of the wind out of your indignant sails?? LOL
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Old 30th September 2011, 07:17 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I think that the "odds of contracting the illness" being offset by the "odds of contracting an illness from getting the vaccine" would answer that question.

When you take anti-venom or get a rabies shot, there is no question whether it is prudent to do so.

So why would you wonder that?

Curious
I wonder because it is always prudent to be vaccinated unless you have a proven allergy or other extenuating condition.
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Old 30th September 2011, 08:32 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Am I wrong?
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Dude, she was correct..............so wouldn't that normally take some of the wind out of your indignant sails?? LOL
Irrelevant to my point.
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Old 1st October 2011, 12:00 AM   #205
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Anyway, maybe some summarizes for the OP

Natural immunity is not good enough to protect a child. If it was noone would ever get sick.

Modern medicine did not make us weaker, otherwise child mortality in western countries would have gone up, not down since we started immunization

The diseases inoculated against are diseases that have extremely high mortality rates, cause severe mental or physical handicaps or cause severe to fatal sympthons in adults that did not get inoculated or sick as a child.

These diseases have evolved to specifically target humans and thus bypass, overwhelm or fool the immune system. This happened centuries to millennia ago, it is not due to modern medicine.

Herd immunity offers some protection, provided you are lucky in the same way that russian roulette gives a 5 in 6 chance of winning. If you are unlucky the effects are extremely bad and there is nothing YOU can do about it anymore. (ie, if your older child does get infected he/she will at best be extremely ill, at worst die and that is a pretty hefty chance even with hospital treatment)

There is a chance of vaccines having side effects, but these are extremely small. The problem is that this is hard to overcome. Even though the chances are very small, people will assume that it will happen to them. A way to possibly counter this is to start researching the amount of children that die in car accidents in your area, run the statistics and point out that this is far more likely than vaccine side effects. Would this mean she never allows a child in or near a car?

While I agree with truehat that calling this child abuse is on the extreme side, it might be wise to point out to her that it is taking a lot of risks with not her life, but that your children that can easily be avoided. If two professional basketballers were to start tossing a child to each other because they are sure they'll always catch it, I assume your wife would intervene, even if the child is not dropped and thus the basketballers were not actively hurting the child.
Not vaccinating your children for the known and still present child diseases imo is in the same category. Not tossing a child around is safer than always tossing a child even IF you catch it.

And lastly, the childhood diseases vaccinated against are still active and present in every country in the world and modern society is too open and too widely travelled to assume you won't get into contact with it. Even if you live in a small community, someone is bringing in your food, gasoline and other stuff.
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Old 1st October 2011, 12:38 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
this is the dramatizing part. The rest is information. But as has been pointed out, many times people arguing the points online resort to drama, instead of just posting the facts. I think it does a great disservice to the cause of vaccinations because it ultimately underminds the objectivity of the medical end of the discussion.

So does calling people selfish ****** etc when discussing using herd immunity etc.


I know it's a highly emotional issue, as well as frustrating I'm sure. But when people start talking like this it sounds agenda driven to me. I can only imagine what it would sound like to the OP's wife.
I have no agenda! I am only speaking from the heart. I have two grown up children and they have had everything that medical science can offer during their lifetimes.

The point I am making, and this is an important one, is that you have to consider the guilt that you could feel if one of your kids suffered as a consequence of a "belief" or a gut feeling motivating you into an erroneous action.

We live in a world today where we take for granted that good health is the normal state. Go back one hundred years and things were completely different. Medical science has made the difference, and it has been so successful that people like the OPs wife can sit back in a deluded comfort, and have the luxury to actually consider that her kids should be kept outside the sphere of the latest advances in vaccine technology.

I for one was very glad that the governments of the world tackled the prospect of a Swine flu pandemic in the way that they did. To say that it was all scare mongering, I suggest that you read up on the Spanish Flu pandemic in 1918, and that should put the whole thing in perspective.

Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

The most interesting element of this flu, and certainly the most relevant for you, is that those healthy young adults that had the strongest natural immune system were the ones that the virus mainly killed. This is not scare mongering it is a fact that you are searching for.

Last edited by Explorer; 1st October 2011 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 1st October 2011, 12:52 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Originally Posted by truethat
Especially because your body is designed to defend itself against infection.
And microorganisms evolved to defeat the immune system. Are you that ignorant about pre-vaccine pre-antibiotic era when human life expectancy was a fraction of what it is today?
Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Darlin' for the last time, we don't LIVE in the pre-vaccination era. We live in the NOW.

Most people DO vaccinate their children. And most people WANT to vaccinate their children.
Which is completely irrelevant to the point that Skeptic Ginger was replying to. You said "Especially because your body is designed to defend itself against infection.". She replied that the viruses and micro-organisms that your body is fighting are equally "designed" to fight your immune system.

Which suggests that relying on that immune system isn't necessarily a good idea. And the evidence from the era when we did rely on our immune systems is, well, that she's right.


Quote:
Now can you stop trying to bring up an irrelevant point just because you hate this fact.
It is clearly you who is "bringing up an irrelevant point", at least in relation to the post you were responding to.
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Old 1st October 2011, 01:39 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
Am I wrong?
Yep. For instance, there were a few posts that suggested that the OP not cave in to pressure from his wife and recognise that he has as much right to determine their medical care as she. They also point out that her "either we don't vaccinate, or you leave, I keep the kids, and we still don't vaccinate" is simply wrong, because in court, he would win.

While we can agree or disagree with that advice, clearly it is a response to the OP.
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Old 1st October 2011, 02:44 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Explorer View Post
I have no agenda! I am only speaking from the heart.
This may be OT, but the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, one could argue that those who "speak from the heart" are much more likely to have an agenda than those who speak from the brain ... so to speak.
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Old 1st October 2011, 07:34 AM   #210
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Exclamation For the curious

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
You know I was bored today and may have played someone's dupe. I see our Dear Mr. JamesBuhls is an online psychic and reiki master. Since reiski is one of the groups that seem not to like modern medical science and prefers holistic health (that and your natal chart readings must come in handy for your pregnant wife) I'm curious how you reconcile all this with your strong ideas about how important vaccinations must be?

Hm.
I don't spend my time doing a Google search on every one of you so that I can qualify your statements, so I had foolishly hoped you wouldn't do the same for me. But, since you brought it up, I'll tell you what I tell all my clients: I'm an atheist, I don't believe in an afterlife, and I think the most important thing is to focus on what you have in this life, what you can do for the people you love, and to the greatest extent practical living in peace with others. There's a lot of suffering in life and what we choose to do about it (and how we choose to respond to it) are the true test of our humanity.

When I read cards, I tell people: I'm not a psychic, I'm a card reader - there's a difference. Obviously if I was psychic I'd be out catching criminals, finding missing children, preparing for natural disasters, preventing terrorist attacks, playing the stock market, winning the lottery, and claiming the $1,000,000 prize offered by JREF. I've said as much in the introduction to both books I've written on cartomancy - if my students can't accept that, they need to study with somebody else.

When I read cards, it's the same as reading a book - the cards of a deck are pages from a book and they say something different every time I read them. I'm very clear with my clients that I cannot predict the future and I explain in no uncertain terms that my readings are only to look at yourself in a new perspective, and are absolutely no replacement for professional help or services. Truth told, it's not even an angle that sells very well because despite my efforts to educate my clients to the non-existence of psychic phenomena and the extreme importance of taking responsibility for themselves, they continue to want to be entertained and simply told what to do.

When I practice Reiki, I make it clear in no uncertain terms that the practice is only for stress reduction and relaxation. There are quite a number of irresponsible Reiki practitioners who will say that nearly anything can be literally healed with Reiki but - like my card readings - services as a Reiki practitioner don't sell very well either because despite my efforts to educate my clients about the known benefits of relaxation and learning to manage stress and give healthy responses to stressors (as opposed to "unlocking their Atlantean DNA," or connecting with their spirit guides, or communicating with "ascended masters"), they continue to believe that there is some mystical practice to a fountain of eternal youth (or else if they're escapists, some sort of magic doorway into the transcendent beyond.)

My wife and both practice Reiki, but there are no delusions between us on this matter: Reiki is a meditative practice with a spiritual component which helps practitioners manage stress and learn habits conducive to non-reactive, harmonious interactions with others. I'm quite a bit more educated on the history of Reiki and passionate about it than my wife is, but otherwise we share the same beliefs in this matter.

I think that I'm being the more mature, responsible person by not jumping to conclusions, not making ultimatums, and persisting in my efforts to communicate with her - I think that's a pretty good example of living my values.

Anybody else care to Google me?
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Old 1st October 2011, 07:49 AM   #211
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Angry Thanks for the help

To those of you who shared links, gave me advice, and made a genuine effort to answer my question, I'm very thankful for your support. You know who you are. To quote Popeye, "I am who I am and that's all that I am." If you don't like my beliefs, that's fine - you don't have to accept them, I'm not asking you to - but I came to the forum at JREF because I respect the work James Randi does and I knew that the skeptic community (who spends a lot of time educating people about the dangers of not vaccinating) would probably be able to help me get started.

From what I can see this thread has taken on a life of its own and is dominated by off-topic replies; if anybody in the skeptic community wonders why outsiders think you have a reputation as rude and insensitive, read the previous posts. I'm unsubscribing from this thread now, but if there's anybody else out there who feels like offering any genuine help, you know how to use the private messaging system.

EDIT

And just to pre-empt anybody who's going to bring up these questions:

1) I moved from North Carolina to Ontario to marry and live with my wife - this isn't a fictitious place of residence.

2) My legal name is Buhls, but the original spelling, Bulls, comes from some really distant Cherokee ancestry. My legal name is on my passport, immigration paperwork, marriage certificate, and a billion other documents that would be nearly impossible to change. I use both names, but use Bulls more frequently because that is the true spelling and also because it prevents people from calling me Beuller, Beull, or Buhols (I don't even know how they come up with that last one.)

Last edited by jamesbuhls; 1st October 2011 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 1st October 2011, 09:36 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by jamesbuhls View Post
...So, can anybody recommend any speaking points, debate strategies, non-confrontational ways to invite the conversation, gentle ways of encouraging her to see a different perspective, or another tactic to get her to put down her defenses and listen to what I'm trying to share with her?...
I read throught the thread before answering and I hope you haven't left for good!
I wanted to ask you to post up the sources your wife is actually reading on the subject.
Cheers and good luck.
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Old 1st October 2011, 09:54 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
This may be OT, but the two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, one could argue that those who "speak from the heart" are much more likely to have an agenda than those who speak from the brain ... so to speak.
I repeat, I have no agenda, and just because truthat thought that I did, does not make it true.

I shall rewrite the sentence for you and anyone else who wishes to be pedantic with my choice of words.

I have no agenda!
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Old 1st October 2011, 02:48 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by jamesbuhls View Post
... 1) I moved from North Carolina to Ontario to marry and live with my wife - this isn't a fictitious place of residence....
Another hijack here: Do you have anything you'd like to say to an American who from time to time contemplates moving to Canada? My impression is that authorization to immigrate, accept employment etc. is based on a point system that grants points for specific skills, education etc., and that many well-educated, gainfully employed Americans wouldn't qualify. I've looked at the Canadian government website, and it looks like the requirements are pretty tough. Any tips?

And getting back to your original post, are the Canadians for any reason more likely to be suspicious of vaccination than the average American? Does your wife know a lot of people who support her views? What are the vaccination rates for Canadian children vs. Americans? What are the legal requirements for school admission etc.? What are the parents' legal obligations in terms of providing appropriate medical care to their children? It'll be harder to change her mind if a lot of people are telling her she's right.
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Old 1st October 2011, 05:00 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by jamesbuhls View Post
To those of you who shared links, gave me advice, and made a genuine effort to answer my question, I'm very thankful for your support.
Perhaps bring your wife into this online discussion and have her points answered one by one.

And as a response to the "improvements in sanitation have caused a reduction in disease" argument, I like to point to the Hib vaccine. It was only released around 92 or 93. The year prior to its introduction, there were around 20000 cases of the disease, afterward it virtually disappeared. There is absolutely no way to explain this other than the vaccine. (The dates and numbers are off the top of my head, if someone has a correction, please post it).

Good luck.
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Old 1st October 2011, 05:06 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
For me, I believe in a natural approach to my children's health to some degree.
Other that avoiding antibiotics, can you tell us what this "natural approach" is?

Quote:
My attitude is that the body is a machine designed (not by a creator so don't go off the deep end there) to fight illness. If you have a strong immune system, adding to that system just throws it off.
What if you don't have a strong immune system?

How can you tell if you do or don't have this "strong immune system"?

If strong immune systems do such a great job of fighting disease, why did smallpox kill of entire communities of native americans? Or why did the black death kill off so many completely different types of people?
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Old 1st October 2011, 05:24 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Tomblvd View Post
Perhaps bring your wife into this online discussion and have her points answered one by one.
That's a good idea.
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Old 1st October 2011, 07:59 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
That's a good idea.
Not necessarily: participating in an online discussion might just as likely put her on the defensive and make her more adamant in her position.
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Old 1st October 2011, 08:13 PM   #219
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Of course, not necessarily. But at least we're emotionally neutral so that might make it easier for her to listen. Of course, as a bunch of skeptics she might be inclined to dismiss us as being closed minded.

Would she come here? If she did, would she change her mind?

But it is still a good idea.
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Old 1st October 2011, 11:52 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Would she come here? If she did, would she change her mind?
Oh yeah, it would be great if she got to experience the gentle and caring atmosphere here that would kindly and patiently persuade her to reconsider her position.


That was sarcasm, btw. There are perhaps a couple posters that could handle it, but the vast majority would make things worse.
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Old 2nd October 2011, 02:40 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I think for me it's more like, if it ain't broke don't fix it.fix it anyway, that is known as maintenance.
Fixed that for you, hope it exposes the fundamental flaw in your theory.
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Old 2nd October 2011, 03:44 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by jamesbuhls View Post
Hi, folks; can you offer me some help? The trouble is that my wife and I disagree on the importance of vaccines: I think children should be vaccinated, and she thinks vaccines are deadly.
I tried reading the whole of the thread then lost the will to live so apologies if I'm saying stuff which has already been covered but I have to agree with those posters who have said it is unlikely that you will ever change your wife's views. She obviously has deeply entrenched suspicion of science and technology and the more you try to persuade her otherwise the worse that suspicion will become - perverse but that's how it seems to work.

I also agree with truethat that showing her sites like this and quackwatch will definitely be counterproductive - they are great when 'preaching to the converted' and informing sceptics but they will only harden the opinion of people like your wife.

As a vet I can help you with the cat leukaemia (FeLV) story though (apologies if Rolfe has chimed in about this already, Rolfe is the expert here and if there are any contradictions believe Rolfe, not me!). In cats only one third to a half of leukaemias are caused by the FeLV virus, the rest just arise spontaneously as most other cancers do. So having an FeLV vaccination will reduce your cat's risk of contracting the tumour but it is not a guarantee that it will never get it. To my mind the extremely good safety profile of the vaccine means it is worth giving in order to benefit from this reduction, even if the 'cover' isn't perfect.

Hope that helps and good luck.

Yuri
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Old 2nd October 2011, 04:18 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by jamesbuhls View Post
Hi, folks; can you offer me some help? The trouble is that my wife and I disagree on the importance of vaccines: I think children should be vaccinated, and she thinks vaccines are deadly. She so strongly opposes vaccines that she has said she would leave me before she agreed to vaccinate our children. She has one child from a former spouse, and she's pregnant with our first right now.

Every time I talk to her about vaccines, she tells me stories about how vaccines are at best worthless and at worst fatal - that the incidence of disease goes down due to public sanitation improvements, not vaccination campaigns. She's read a lot of stuff and tells me about all the anti-vac stuff she's read, but it's always a, "I read a (book / report / study / article) by this (guy / doctor / magazine / health group / researcher) that shows vaccines (cause autism / induce fits of paralysis / injure the child / kill the child / other bad stuff)."

She even pulls this story out about how she took one of her cats who up until this point had been completely healthy to get vaccinated for feline leukemia and who after the vaccination came down with feline leukemia and died thus proving that vaccines are a fraud. It's even worse because her mother is of the same opinion and the two reinforce each other's beliefs.

I don't know how to talk to her about this; I've done my reading on JREF and Quackwatch and shown her the reports that so many anti-vac reports are bogus (or the doctors who wrote them are discredited), but she doesn't hear any of it. She's totally convinced that vaccines are dangerous and no matter how I try to broach the subject she gets really hostile and shuts down the conversation.

I feel like I'm in a really tough position because from what I've read I believe vaccines to be really important and safe, but from what my wife has read she believes they're the biggest and most dangerous scam of the 20th century. We both love our children, but I feel like she's the one putting them in harm's way. Can anybody here recommend conversation starters, sound arguments, or other methods of helping her come off the anti-vac wagon?
No. Don't get your kids vaccinated if you value your marriage more than the tiny risk of your children being seriously harmed or dying from a vaccine-preventable disease.

Try to make sure your kids are better (i.e. more reliably) educated than your wife is on the subject of vaccination. Maybe they'll choose to be vaccinated as adults.
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Old 2nd October 2011, 05:05 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer View Post
No. Don't get your kids vaccinated if you value your marriage more than the tiny risk of your children being seriously harmed or dying from a vaccine-preventable disease.

Try to make sure your kids are better (i.e. more reliably) educated than your wife is on the subject of vaccination. Maybe they'll choose to be vaccinated as adults.
Sensible and pragmatic advice as ever, it's education, not confrontation which will make the difference - cheers Ivor.

Yuri

(now wait for the usual slew of name calling and gratuitous insults )
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Old 2nd October 2011, 06:41 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I still don't think you understand what I'm asking. I'm not debating you I just think we are having two different conversations.


Put more simply


What are the odds of a baby contrzcting an illness or having an adverse side effect from a vaccine?


What are the odds of a baby contracting an illness from an immigrant anywhere around the world or from someone IN the community based on the area in which the OP person lives?
That depends on such a great number of factors it's impossible to estimate. Why is it relevant at all?

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
The bolded for example. The lack of immunization caused 62.8% of the children to require hospitalization.
That's not what it says at all. Try to read for comprehension.

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Well that's a bit weird of a statistic if you think about it. I would wager, THOUGH I AM PREPARED TO BE PROVEN WRONG, that most of those children were "hospitalized' because part of the reason they were not immunized is that they were children of illegal immigrants who often don't have access to proper prenatal and pediatric care when their children are little. And so they often use the hospital emergency rooms as their Primary Care Physician and go when they are actually seriously sick.


Originally Posted by truethat View Post
(And I'm totally pro immigrant so let's not derail there)
Right. Just like you're pro-vaccine...

Originally Posted by truethat View Post
It seems like these are suspect statements. So I'd like to see some more information that compares the number of children who use the herd immunity compared to the humber of children who get sick from vaccines.

And using the herd doesn't mean you live in a cult or are Amish etc. But someone who prefers holistic healing and lives among regular people .
Holistic healing? It feels good when one's first impressions start to materialize, that's for sure. Sorry, it's now almost impossible for me to see you as a rational person.
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Old 2nd October 2011, 08:49 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus View Post
Sensible and pragmatic advice as ever, it's education, not confrontation which will make the difference - cheers Ivor.

Yuri

(now wait for the usual slew of name calling and gratuitous insults )
The problem with this approach is that an infant will be left vulnerable to diseases for which they are at risk for the highest rates of complications. Also, do you honestly believe that children raised in that kind of environment will be open to education about their health choices?

Este
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Old 2nd October 2011, 09:28 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ivor the Engineer View Post
... Don't get your kids vaccinated if you value your marriage more than the tiny risk of your children being seriously harmed or dying ...
I dunno. Once one spouse tells another "I will leave you if you don't do what I say," a door has opened (or closed). What happens if the unvaccinated child gets seriously ill, and husband and wife disagree about medical care ("I'm calling 911! No, don't, I'll just make some herbal tea!")? Is the risk really "tiny?" What about all the other decisions and compromises that marriage requires over the years? This couple needs formal counseling with a medical professional who is equipped to deal in detail with vaccination fears/misconceptions. And hubby needs to be prepared to protect himself and his child.
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Old 2nd October 2011, 11:44 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
The problem with this approach is that an infant will be left vulnerable to diseases for which they are at risk for the highest rates of complications.
Yes, but short of using force and/or abducting the children they are going to remain unvaccinated whatever. And if force or deceit is used then that will simply confirm their mother's pre-conceptions about the untrustworthiness of the advocates of science. That's what I meant about pragmatic.

Originally Posted by Estellea View Post
Also, do you honestly believe that children raised in that kind of environment will be open to education about their health choices?

Este
If they see themselves and their mother being treated with respect and the message is put across consistently and in a non-confrontational, non-judgemental way then, yes, it's possible.

Sometimes one must concede a battle in order to win the war.

Yuri
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Old 2nd October 2011, 12:21 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Yuri Nalyssus View Post
Yes, but short of using force and/or abducting the children they are going to remain unvaccinated whatever. And if force or deceit is used then that will simply confirm their mother's pre-conceptions about the untrustworthiness of the advocates of science. That's what I meant about pragmatic.
I agree, which was why I was firmly against the father taking deceitful actions as was suggested by truethat. It is also the mother that is threatening abduction and divorce if she doesn't get her way. My suggestion was a reasonable compromise by discussing a very selective schedule.


Quote:
If they see themselves and their mother being treated with respect and the message is put across consistently and in a non-confrontational, non-judgemental way then, yes, it's possible.

Sometimes one must concede a battle in order to win the war.
Or...
They see that tantrums, ultimatums and threats are a means to achieve your wants with no regard for anyone else. And around an round we go. Additionally, I'm sorry to say that I know the 'type' and she will be conditioning her children to believe that they are super speshul snowflakes with 'untainted bodies' and to distrust 'allopathic medicine' as much as she does. It's a really bad situation that, I'm afraid, extends far past vaccines.

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Old 3rd October 2011, 08:28 AM   #230
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Hi James.

I am a bit late to this threads, but have my own 2c worth to put in the ring. (I am an infectious diseases specialist and am a very strong proponent of vaccination, btw).

As others have said, if you wish to cause irreperable friction between you and your wife, then the way to do it is to start major arguments about healthcare for your kids. My advice is to steer a compromise course - suggest that DTaP and MMR (or single measles) are given, but concede that the others can be delayed/forgone.

Pertussis is not an uncommon disease, and exposure is quite possible in infants, who do very badly if they become infected. Vaccination is vital. Also ensure that you get your uptodate boosters if possible, including pertussis - this will provide a degree of protection.

If your unvaccinated child gets mumps, rubella, or chickepox infection then he will be unlikely to come to great harm. Meningitis or pneumonia infections are very unlikely events, so not having those vaccines is a calculated risk, but that means there is still a very small risk of getting a serious illness. Most kids who get rotavirus diarrhoea do fine - the risk without vaccine is a moderate one of getting a usually minor illness.

However, your post raises other concerns - what if your child does become ill - will your wife insist on CAM remedies rather than a proper medical assessment? What will her views be for other things, like choices of schooling, attitudes to your child's behavior, friends, watching TV/screens etc? If you disagree about some or all of these things then trouble lies ahead, even if the vax issue is resolved amicably.

Maybe you can buy her some books for Xmas, like Ben Goldacre's Badscience, or another book that promotes critical thinking and leads one into the rational view that there is ann abundance of evidence that vaccination is beneficial, not just for your own selves/child, but for everyone.
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Old 3rd October 2011, 05:00 PM   #231
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Hi Deetee. Good post.

Originally Posted by Deetee View Post
However, your post raises other concerns - what if your child does become ill - will your wife insist on CAM remedies rather than a proper medical assessment? What will her views be for other things, like choices of schooling, attitudes to your child's behavior, friends, watching TV/screens etc? If you disagree about some or all of these things then trouble lies ahead, even if the vax issue is resolved amicably.
If you disagree about some or all of those things, then welcome to the world of parenting. If you can work out the vax issue amicably, it will improve your chances of being able to resolve whatever else you discover you disagree with your spouse about regarding childrearing.

Despite having planned our first child and discussing all such issues that had occurred to us, surprises were constantly arising. As kids grow up, issues you never thought about at all before, much less worked out in detail, arise and have to be dealt with.

Congratulations on the expected new arrival. I think Deetee gave excellent advice above. I hope you can work things out.
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Old 4th October 2011, 08:17 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post

Would you inject a milder version of HIV into your system to help you create what's needed to fight the infection?
Hell, yes I would.

Have you ever met anyone who had polio, Truethat? I have.
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Old 4th October 2011, 11:35 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
No people prefer their personal reality over statistics. Even statistics are based on a segment of the population.

I have three sons, except for the few colds my oldest has had, none of them has ever been sick.

So consider, 17 years or lets make it 15, not one cold among three boys, not one flu, nothing. Not even when I got sick and was puking my guts out. None of them were sick.

Why?

Well if you are a scientist you might care why, but as a mom I am pretty interested in the fact that all of my friends who do give their kids amoxicillin have kids that are regularly sick.
That is logical.


OR, you have causation reversed, and your friend gave her children amoxicillin because they were sick a lot, NOT the other way around. Some people get sick more than others.

Antibiotic overuse is serious, but your argument is absurd.
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Old 4th October 2011, 06:24 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Deetee View Post
Hi James.

I am a bit late to this threads, but have my own 2c worth to put in the ring. (I am an infectious diseases specialist and am a very strong proponent of vaccination, btw).

As others have said, if you wish to cause irreperable friction between you and your wife, then the way to do it is to start major arguments about healthcare for your kids. My advice is to steer a compromise course - suggest that DTaP and MMR (or single measles) are given, but concede that the others can be delayed/forgone.

Pertussis is not an uncommon disease, and exposure is quite possible in infants, who do very badly if they become infected. Vaccination is vital. Also ensure that you get your uptodate boosters if possible, including pertussis - this will provide a degree of protection.

If your unvaccinated child gets mumps, rubella, or chickepox infection then he will be unlikely to come to great harm. Meningitis or pneumonia infections are very unlikely events, so not having those vaccines is a calculated risk, but that means there is still a very small risk of getting a serious illness. Most kids who get rotavirus diarrhoea do fine - the risk without vaccine is a moderate one of getting a usually minor illness.


However, your post raises other concerns - what if your child does become ill - will your wife insist on CAM remedies rather than a proper medical assessment? What will her views be for other things, like choices of schooling, attitudes to your child's behavior, friends, watching TV/screens etc? If you disagree about some or all of these things then trouble lies ahead, even if the vax issue is resolved amicably.

Maybe you can buy her some books for Xmas, like Ben Goldacre's Badscience, or another book that promotes critical thinking and leads one into the rational view that there is ann abundance of evidence that vaccination is beneficial, not just for your own selves/child, but for everyone.

This is pretty much what I've been saying through the whole thread. That you aren't discussing the rights and wrongs of vaccination with your wife, you are talking about vaccinating ONE baby.

Most of the illnesses mentioned above, as I said before, the body can fight off. The fight might be a rough week or two for the child but they can do it.

I would just encourage her to start with one that the child is likely to contract and that could have dire consequences for the child. That seems to be whooping cough.

Seems like my advice was the same as the expert on infectious diseases. So everyone else ought to realize the only ones making illogical arguments were the ones trying to twist this into a debate over vaccination.

It's one child we're talking about here and peace in the marriage. Looking at the likelihood that the child would even contract the disease in the first place is the most logical thing to do. Not fear mongering conversations about "my friend with polio" and other really unrelated issues.

Last edited by truethat; 4th October 2011 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 7th November 2011, 12:55 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Dragonrock View Post
Don't forget to point out that rabies, earthquakes, poison ivy, and skunk musk are all completely natural and I suspect she would go out of her way to avoid them all.
Why stop there? We've also got fruit seeds full of cyanide, animals full of deadly venom, mountains full of deadly pressurized ash, and let's not forget that all-natural nuclear fireball that our planet is forever falling towards.
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Old 8th November 2011, 04:18 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
I actually edited the HIV part, I thought it was obvious I didn't mean full fledged HIV.


You quoted the first part and then totally ignored it and frankly it's sorta the crux of the argument.

Also you say that "based on the information we had" well then where is the Swine Flu?

I find it odd that you find it completely inconceivable that there was fear mongering going on with the pharmaceutical companies (and no I'm not a anti big pharma person) that created a panic and demand for a vaccine that proved to be pretty much unnecessary.

Why is it that people on the other side never even for a second want to consider a fact. When this was going on, many of us said it felt like a scam to make money. In hind sight it sure as heck looks that way doesn't it? But they'll deny it to the gills.


You know when the Hurricane recently hit NYC many of us here thought Bloomberg was either making up for his shoddy work during the snow storm this past winter, or fear mongering people into going out and buying everything they could get their hands on, which included guzzling gas.

Several of my friends knew it wouldn't make a dent, and it certainly didn't do what we were told it was going to do.

It's not the first time someone in power has done this and it won't be the last. I guess some of us wonder why this has never dawned on the angry vaccination crowd.
...
Truethat, I came to the conclusion some time back that "skepticism"="ignoring all evidence that doesn't support the mainstream belief system." Everytime vaccination gets discussed on this forum, you get the same repetition of fear-mongering and belief based on the industries' propaganda (oops, evidence) and, of course, the blanket statement that all contrary studies, evidence and opinions have been discredited.

Vaccination is a religion and serious intellectual discussion is thwarted by the emotional attachment to entrenched beliefs as you have seen over the course of this discussion. There's no chance that any of the pro-vacciners will give any thought that the alternative view might be correct nor will they realise the ridiculousness of their vicious attacks against anyone who questions their beliefs.

You yourself appear to be under its spell as well as you stated in post #21
Quote:
Of course the vaccine wasn't useless.
Why "of course?" There's reams of "discredited" evidence showing that vaccinations are a major cause of epidemics. Anyone who actually understands human physiology will realise that vaccinations are just a modern day version of medical mumbo-jumbo where demons were replaced by germs then germs by viruses. Herbert Shelton often spoke about how physicians are trained in the black art of poisoning the sick and that vaccinations are a method of poisoning the well which increases the physicians income base.

Quote:
"There is not the slightest room to doubt that the frightful mortality from the "Black Death," "yellow fever," "sinking typhus," "congestive chills," smallpox, typhoid fever and pneumonia was due almost wholly to the poisoning, stimulating, narcotizing, bleeding, blistering, cauterizing, leeching, mercurializing, purging and antimonial practices of the times." H. Shelton, 1968
I realise that one child's death does not disprove the whole vaccination industry but the story of this child's death says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts despite the overwhelming pressure applied by the pro-vaccination army.

Ian's Voice

I applaud your strong stand for your and your childrens' rights to bodily sovereignty and hope that your strength will guide others to the light of rational thinking.
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Old 8th November 2011, 05:22 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by trusetheeker View Post
....
I realise that one child's death does not disprove the whole vaccination industry but the story of this child's death says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts despite the overwhelming pressure applied by the pro-vaccination army....
Here, let me fix that for you:

The story of this many children's deaths from vaccine preventable diseases says a lot about why we should trust our own instincts the overwhelming body of scientific research and the vast majority of dedicated, highly educated, rationally thinking, and not out to bilk the public scientists and health care workers despite the overwhelming pressure applied use of propaganda filled materials put out in abundance by the well meaning but poorly informed, uneducated, anti-vaccination army minority.
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Old 8th November 2011, 05:45 PM   #238
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If I come off a little harsh about this topic, please forgive me. I feel rather strongly regarding this topic.

Anti-vaxxers severely piss me off. It's a bunch of hipster hogwash. People want to be all new-agey and trendy in the eyes of their particular clique, but damned if they'll let little things like the health and welfare of their children get in the way.

No, justify anti-vax nonsense however you want, but this is EXACTLY what it boils down to. Any anti-vaxxer who tells you the welfare of their children is the most important thing is outright lying to you. If that were the case, they'd do the basic bare-bones minimal amount of research into the topic to realize the whole anti-vaxxer premise is utter garbage. And because of this garbage we're seeing infants and very young children dying of easily preventable diseases.

Anti-vax hipsters. Damn them all. No street-cred points from any culture justifies letting innocent children die.
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Old 8th November 2011, 09:23 PM   #239
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I'm sure that someone has pointed this out in the previous 5 pages, but why not just take your kid to the doctor and have him or her vaccinated? What's more important, avoiding a fight with your wife or having your kid die? Good gravy, grow a pair.
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Old 8th November 2011, 11:29 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by jasonpatterson View Post
I'm sure that someone has pointed this out in the previous 5 pages, but why not just take your kid to the doctor and have him or her vaccinated? What's more important, avoiding a fight with your wife or having your kid die? Good gravy, grow a pair.
There could be custody issues, legal issues. I agree with you and hope the courts would side with JamesB, but vaccines are given in a series. He needs to consider custody issues if it is going to involve multiple trips to the doc.
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