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Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 29th September 2019, 03:59 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You don't know that.
*Very slowly* Yes, that's why I said "doubt" and "think."

If the "OMG Like you can tell the future!" is going to be the standard retort to every political possibility people don't want to consider, save it for when people make actual predictions.
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Old 29th September 2019, 05:02 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Very slowly* Yes, that's why I said "doubt" and "think."

If the "OMG Like you can tell the future!" is going to be the standard retort to every political possibility people don't want to consider, save it for when people make actual predictions.
Well let me rephrase that then, I think that is an absurd assessment and suggests you were following the news (aka reporter's black and white statements) instead of the actual nuanced words Pelosi said.
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Old 29th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Oh, ok. Agree on Conway then, don't know about the gaslighting but she was really cranking up the spin machine when she claimed Pelosi was succumbing to pressure from men.
She's a classic troll. I wouldn't be surprised if she and her husband have cooked up their "differences" between them and are laughing all the way to the bank.
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Old 29th September 2019, 09:21 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Thanks PW for the links and everyone for the info on Hunter B.



There was a meme on this upthread but here are some links on it:

Kellyanne Conway is trying to insert the talking point, Pelosi was coerced by the men in her caucus.

Boston Globe: Kellyanne Conway Says Pelosi Succumbed to Pressure from Men on Impeachment

HuffPo words it differently: Kellyanne Conway Lobs Sexist Dig At Nancy Pelosi, Says She Caved To Men On Impeachment


I wonder how long it took Conway to come up with that one?
Conway, like the rest of the Great Right Wing Noise Machine, is rather simple-minded. I'm quite sure she sees this as a diabolical way to split the male and female anti-Trump forces. Get Pelosi all squirmy about being accused of being subservient to males in the party and she'll turn on them. Or she'll show her true Femi-Nazis colors and alienate two swing-district voters in Nevada, thereby winning the election for Trump.

Or sumfin'.

Alternate theory: Kelly-Ann is just a miserable piece of work and has run out of "Look, Squirrel!" comments for the press.
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Old 29th September 2019, 09:33 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
She's a classic troll. I wouldn't be surprised if she and her husband have cooked up their "differences" between them and are laughing all the way to the bank.
Wouldn't that make her husband a classic troll, too? Wouldn't that give his positions no more validity than hers?
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Old 29th September 2019, 09:38 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Conway, like the rest of the Great Right Wing Noise Machine, is rather simple-minded.
Assuming she has a mind is giving her too much credit.
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Old 30th September 2019, 06:47 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
She's a classic troll. I wouldn't be surprised if she and her husband have cooked up their "differences" between them and are laughing all the way to the bank.
Wouldn't that make her husband a classic troll, too? Wouldn't that give his positions no more validity than hers?

Only if you assume that conservatives and Trump Zombies can't be trolled by using facts and evidence as a response to their blathering.

History suggests that they can be. Rather easily, it turns out.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:14 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Every good career advancement plan includes a retirement strategy. She'll want to wrap up her career clean, with her reputation, her legacy, and her relationships all intact.

---


ETA: I found this article (sorry about the source, feel free to find a better one if you like):

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...-to-secure-the

She's stepping down as Speaker in 2022. She's not actually ending her political career. According to this article, it actually looks like stepping down as speaker is in fact a career move. The House Democrats would like a younger face in that role. So they've agreed to re-elect her as Speaker in this term, in exchange for her agreeing to go back to being a regular Rep after that. Career-wise, this is a lot more savvy than digging in her heels and trying to hang onto the office of Speaker, and antagonizing her party in the process.
Ooh! Going back to standard Rep! What a career advancement move!

Come on, theprestige, stop it. You made a claim; it was ridiculous. Just admit it and move on.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:16 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
This is hardly the perfect case.

The perfect case would be something so egregious that no reasonable person could doubt that Trump did it and that he should be removed for that reason.
I'm not sure either of us can imagine such a case. Not at this point.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:39 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Ooh! Going back to standard Rep! What a career advancement move!

Come on, theprestige, stop it. You made a claim; it was ridiculous. Just admit it and move on.
I stand by the claim.
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Old 30th September 2019, 09:42 AM   #451
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Well, at the moment there is just the possibility that he might be impeached and rather long odds that he would actually be ever removed from office. And still we already are very close to actual incitement to violence. If he really would one day be cornered, bloody hell: an amoral rat with millions of blind low information followers... This might get very ugly.
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:15 PM   #452
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CSPAN had a panel from the Brookings Institute on this morning. It is so worth the hour and a half or take a look through the transcript.

Brookings Institution Forum on Impeachment Inquiry

23 minutes in the question is, of all the things Trump has done, upon which do you make the charges. Sorry about the wall of text and all caps on top of it. You can just go to that point in the tape and listen.
Quote:
I THINK THIS IS REALLY A CRITICAL QUESTION. IT'S IMPORTANT THE HOUSE ANCHORS ITS IMPEACHMENT INQUIRY UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS A GRAVE AND SERIOUS CONSTITUTIONAL RESPONSIBILITY. IT NEEDS TO BE REALLY DISCIPLINED. IMPEACHMENT IS AN AIRING OF GRIEVANCES AGAINST THE PRESIDENT, NOT A MECHANISM TO ACHIEVE THINGS WERE YOU CANNOT BUILD A LEGISLATIVE COALITION. IS A VERY, VERY SERIOUS AND UNIQUE REMEDY IN CASES OF SERIOUS ABUSE. WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT ACTUALLY MIGHT FALL WITH IN THOSE ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT, WE ARE SEEING A HUGE TREND RIGHT NOW OF PEOPLE MOVING FORWARD ON THIS NARROW UKRAINE CALL ALL THE WAY TO PEOPLE SAYING YOU SHOULD INCLUDE FAMILY SEPARATION EVERYTHING WE HAVE SEEN THE PRESIDENT DO. WHATEVER WE THINK ABOUT WHAT SHOULD BE IN THE CODES OF IMPEACHMENT, THINK ABOUT TWO THINGS. YOU WANT UNAMBIGUOUSLY IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT AND YOU WANT UNAMBIGUOUSLY STRONG HABITS. WE HAVE SOME AREAS IN WHICH THERE IS VERY STRONG EVIDENCE BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR IT'S IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT. EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING. THE STORMY DANIELS PAYMENTS, PRE-PRESIDENTIAL CONDUCT THAT IMPLICATES CAMPAIGN-FINANCE LAW. WE HAVE A CLEAR EVIDENTIARY RECORD BUT THE QUESTION OF WHETHER PRE-PRESIDENTIAL CONDUCT WOULD FALL WITHIN THAT STARTS TO BECOME MORE DIFFICULT. THE EMOLUMENTS CLAUSE'S VIOLATION, VERY SERIOUS QUESTIONS, SOME OPEN QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION, CONGRESS IS NOT YET TAKEN STEPS TO MAKE THE LAWS. GENUINE POLICY DIFFERENCES, EVEN THINGS WE MIGHT FIND PERSONALLY ABHORRENT LIKE FAMILY SEPARATION WHICH IS A POLICY DISAGREEMENT, YOU DON'T GET TO IMPEACH FOR THAT. THERE IS A DIFFERENT CATEGORY WHICH IS UNSATISFYING TO LEAVE THAT ON THE TABLE. THERE'S ANOTHER CATEGORY OF PLAINLY IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT IN WHICH THE EVIDENCE IS NOT QUITE STRONG ENOUGH. TO PRESIDENT REPORTEDLY HAS OFFERED PEOPLE PARDONS IN EXCHANGE FOR VIOLATING THE LAW IN THE CONTEXT OF BORDER SECURITY. UNAMBIGUOUSLY IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT, THE RECORD IS MURKY, MAYBE HE WAS KIDDING OR MAYBE HE DIDN'T SAY IT. WE HAVE TO ASK OURSELVES, PUTTING THAT STUFF ASIDE, WHAT ARE WE LEFT WITH? WE THINK ABOUT ON THEM VIGOROUSLY IMPEACHABLE AND STRONG EVIDENCE. THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS A LOT. [LAUGHTER] THE FIRST ONE IS OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE. THIS IS THE BIG QUESTION THAT REMAINS AFTER THE MUELLER REPORT. NOT EVERY EPISODE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE IS RESTRUNG BUT THERE ARE TWO OR THREE THAT ARE UNAMBIGUOUSLY -- THE STATUTORY REQUIREMENTS -- WE WOULD EXPECT TO SEE THE PRESIDENT POTENTIALLY IMPEACH FOR THAT. ABUSE OF FOREIGN POLICY POWERS ARE USING FOREIGN POLICY POWERS FOR PERSONAL GAIN, THAT'S AN ABUSE. INVITING FOREIGN INTERFERENCE IN AMERICAN ELECTIONS IS AN ABUSE. THE VIOLATION OF THE OATH OF OFFICE OR TARGETING POLITICAL OPPONENTS FOR INVESTIGATIONS, NOT JUST IN A FOREIGN CONTEXT BUT ALSO THINGS LIKE DIRECTING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL TO INVESTIGATE HILLARY CLINTON'S EMAILS. THAT IS NOT AN APPROPRIATE USE OF U.S. LAW ENFORCEMENT. OBSTRUCTION OF CONGRESS, THE REFUSAL TO REPLY TO SUBPOENAS, THE FRIVOLOUS ASSERTIONS OF PRIVILEGE OVER PEOPLE LIKE COREY LEWANDOWSKI COMETH THAT IS OBSTRUCTING CONGRESS AND ITS FUNCTION. LAST CATEGORY IS LIES TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC. THIS IS SOMETHING WE SAW IN THE DRAFT ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT FOR RICHARD NIXON AND AGAINST BILL CLINTON AS WELL, LYING TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC IS NOT A CRIME. IT IS IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT AND IT DOES ERODE BASIC DEMOCRATIC ACCOUNTABILITY. THERE IS A VERY LONG, VERY STRONG RECORD THAT SUPPORTS IMPEACHMENT.
That was followed with a discussion of the pros and cons of including many or few of these crimes in the Articles of Impeachment.


Backing up a bit, at minute 15 Trump's connections to Russia and Ukraine put all together are more shocking than when they were spread out over months. (Remember Donny Jr said Russia funds all their golf courses, then he denied it. And there are all those ties to oligarchs and possibly some evidence of money laundering.)
Quote:
LET ME PUT A LITTLE MEAT ON THE OUTLINE THAT JOHN JUST GAVE. ONE OF THE REASONS THAT THIS IS SO FAST AND SO SUDDEN OR SEEMS SO, IS THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMELS BACK. LET'S START AND 2016 IN APRIL. WE SEE THE FIRST ADS WHICH WE NOW KNOW WERE BACKED BY THE RUSSIANS COMING OUT OF ST. PETERSBURG. WE SEE THE FIRST ADS INTERFERING IN THE 2016 ELECTION. GET TO THE SUMMER OF 2016 AND THERE IS TO EVENTS THAT HAVE GOTTEN ATTENTION BUT NOT FOR THE RIGHT THING. THE FIRST EVENT IS THE FAMOUS PRESS CONFERENCE AT THE DORAL GOLF CLUB OR CANDIDATE TRUMP SAYS TO THE REPORTERS, IF THE RUSSIANS ARE LISTENING, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S IN HILLARY'S EMAILS. WHAT HAS BEEN FORGOTTEN ABOUT THAT PRESS CONFERENCE IS HE IS ALSO ASKED ABOUT RUSSIA AND THE UKRAINE. HE SAYS, YEAH, WE WILL BE LOOKING INTO THAT, INDICATING THAT HIS FOREIGN POLICY WITH RUSSIA AND THE UKRAINE IS NOT THE SAME AS HAS BEEN FOREIGN POLICY OF THE UNITED STATES. THE SECOND EVENT THAT GOES ON IN THE SUMMER IS EVERYBODY HEARD ABOUT THE TRUMP TOWER MEETING WITH THE RUSSIAN INTERMEDIARY. WE HAVE FORGOTTEN THAT AT THE REPUBLICAN CONVENTION, TWO ITS BEFORE, THEY WROTE A PLATFORM. USUALLY, THESE PLATFORM MEETINGS, YOU CAN SEE VERY CLEARLY WHERE THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE IS HAVING THEIR IMPACT. THE CHUM CAMPAIGN HAS NO INTEREST, NO INTEREST IN ANY OF THE PIECES OF THE REPUBLICAN PLATFORM.THEY GET TO WRITE A TRADITIONAL REPUBLICAN PLATFORM WITH U.S. POLICY TOWARD RUSSIA, THAT WAS THE ONLY ONE. THIS IS HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT. WE GO TO THE TRANSITION AND SURE ENOUGH, THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR HAS AN ILLEGAL MEETING WITH THE RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR WHICH EVENTUALLY COST HIM HIS JOB IS ONLY IN THE JOB FOR A MONTH. HE FIRES COMEY AND THE NEXT DAY, HE MEETS WITH THE RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTER THE RUSSIAN AMBASSADOR. AND HE THROWS EVERYBODY OUT OF THE MEETING EXCEPT FOR THE RUSSIANS. WE ARE LOOKING AT SOMETHING THAT IS TELLING US SOMETHING AND I THINK FOR A LONG TIME, WE DIDN'T WANT TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON. THAN WE GET TO THE HELSINKI SUMMIT. TO HELSINKI SUMMIT, THE SUMMIT IS OUTRAGEOUS. YOU WANT A SUMMARY OF THAT, LOOK AT JOHN ALLEN'S PIECE ON THE BROOKINGS WEBSITE THAT HE WROTE IMMEDIATELY AFTER THAT. PEOPLE WITH FOREIGN POLICY BACKGROUND SAY WHAT ON EARTH IS HE DOING THERE? IN FACT, THE HELSINKI SUMMIT CAUSES THE LARGEST NUMBER OF REPUBLICAN SENATORS TO ATTACK THEIR PRESIDENT AS HAS EVER HAPPENED. WE'VE GOT A LOT IN PLAIN SIGHT. THEN COMES THIS NEWS OF THIS PHONE CALL. AND ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE, YOU HAVE SEVEN MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, ALL BRAND-NEW, THEY ARE WOMEN, FIVE OF THEM ARE VETERANS, TO OUR FORMER CIA ANALYSTS AND THIS JUST TIPS IT. ALL OF A SUDDEN, THIS IS NOT THE FAR LEFT SAYING IMPEACH THE GUY BECAUSE WE DISAGREE WITH HIM ON HEALTH CARE. ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE THIS HAS GOTTEN A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF SERIOUSNESS AND ONE THAT FRANKLY HAS BEEN BOTHERING PEOPLE FOR THREE YEARS. AND HERE WE ARE.
When you see those incidents together you have to wonder why the GOP is still supporting this guy.

Well some of them are in on it. They get lots of money from the NRA who in turn is getting it from Russia. There were hints they knew that when Paul Ryan told a group of them to shut up as they discussed one of their members, Dana Rohrabacher, looking like he was bought by the Russians.

That panel discussion was packed full of so much information I'm still reeling.
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Old 30th September 2019, 01:18 PM   #453
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They just subpoenaed Giuliani, who's already on record that he will only testify if Trump gives him permission.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/polit...iry/index.html
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:03 PM   #454
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Pompeo Took Part in Trump-Zelensky phone call
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mcconne...nt-11569865002
Quote:
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was among administration officials who listened in on the July 25 phone call between President Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, a senior State Department official said Monday, a disclosure that ties the State Department more closely to the House impeachment inquiry.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:06 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Pompeo Took Part in Trump-Zelensky phone call
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mcconne...nt-11569865002
That explains who gave the instruction to put the call on another server.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:23 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
They just subpoenaed Giuliani, who's already on record that he will only testify if Trump gives him permission.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/30/polit...iry/index.html
They subpoenaed all documents/notes he has related to the Ukraine. Not his testimony. His refusal would go against US v Nixon. A unanimous Supreme Court decision.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:27 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
They subpoenaed all documents/notes he has related to the Ukraine. Not his testimony. His refusal would go against US v Nixon. A unanimous Supreme Court decision.
Yeah, if he testified he could claim lawyer/client privilege or just plead the fifth.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:40 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, if he testified he could claim lawyer/client privilege or just plead the fifth.
He can plead the fifth regarding his testimony, but neither attorney client privilege or the fifth cover his notes and/or the documents. And executive privilege wouldn't work because of US v Nixon. My bet is Rudy is looking at a contempt citation.
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Old 30th September 2019, 02:53 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
He can plead the fifth regarding his testimony, but neither attorney client privilege or the fifth cover his notes and/or the documents. And executive privilege wouldn't work because of US v Nixon. My bet is Rudy is looking at a contempt citation.
I would so love to see him in jail like Susan McDougal.
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:02 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I would so love to see him in jail like Susan McDougal.
You gotta give McDougal credit. She didn't falter at all. Rudy would be whining after the first day.
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Old 30th September 2019, 03:04 PM   #461
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, if he testified he could claim lawyer/client privilege or just plead the fifth.
Didn't a stable genius once claim only guilty people plead the fifth? Can't remember who said that though.

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Old 30th September 2019, 03:12 PM   #462
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Even *if* the Ukraine things turns into nothing (which I sincerely doubt), the House now has super-subpoena power to get everything on their Christmas wish lists: Trump taxes, financials, DNA, everything. This will ultimately destroy 45, if for nothing else than revealing the complete failure 45 truly is.
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Old 30th September 2019, 04:56 PM   #463
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...except that they've already established that if you ignore a subpoena they do nothing to you for that, which makes subpoenas exactly the same as a Pelosi "sternly-worded letter".
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:01 PM   #464
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
They subpoenaed all documents/notes he has related to the Ukraine. Not his testimony. His refusal would go against US v Nixon. A unanimous Supreme Court decision.
That verdict was overturned in the landmark "Trump can do anything he wants vs who's gonna stop me" case of 2016-2019 onward.

Trump's not afraid of a Supreme Court with 5-4 conservative majority including two of his hand picked toadies on it.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 30th September 2019 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:21 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
Even *if* the Ukraine things turns into nothing (which I sincerely doubt), the House now has super-subpoena power to get everything on their Christmas wish lists: Trump taxes, financials, DNA, everything. This will ultimately destroy 45, if for nothing else than revealing the complete failure 45 truly is.
They can only go after relevant evidence. If impeachment is limited to Ukraine, they can't go after his taxes. This is why I think they should tack on emoluments.
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:25 PM   #466
theprestige
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That verdict was overturned in the landmark "Trump can do anything he wants vs who's gonna stop me" case of 2016-2019 onward.

Trump's not afraid of a Supreme Court with 5-4 conservative majority including two of his hand picked toadies on it.
Enabling Act when?
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:26 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That verdict was overturned in the landmark "Trump can do anything he wants vs who's gonna stop me" case of 2016-2019 onward.

Trump's not afraid of a Supreme Court with 5-4 conservative majority including two of his hand picked toadies on it.
I wouldn't be that confident they would rule in his favor. In fact, I would bet big money they wouldn't. It wouldn't even shock me that they would quickly rule against the President saying "stare decisis".
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:34 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
He can plead the fifth regarding his testimony, but neither attorney client privilege or the fifth cover his notes and/or the documents. And executive privilege wouldn't work because of US v Nixon. My bet is Rudy is looking at a contempt citation.
Can an impeachment inquiry compel immunity?

The Power to Compel Testimony and Disclosure
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:38 PM   #469
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
They can only go after relevant evidence. If impeachment is limited to Ukraine, they can't go after his taxes. This is why I think they should tack on emoluments.
There is already a subpoena that Trump is fighting to get his financial records from Deutsche Bank and his tax records are part of that. Then there was that NY State investigation looking at his state tax records. That is also tied up in the courts which is Trump's modus operandi.

There is still one of the emoluments cases in the courts. They weren't both stalled under a no standing charge. So no need to add that to the impeachment. The Brookings panel this morning thought the emoluments issue was weak in terms of impeachment. Take a look at the link to that panel discussion in my post upthread. You can click on any segment in the transcript and that part of the discussion will play.

One of the issues they pointed out is too many subpoenas and you risk Trump tying it up in the courts until after the election. While that may seem OK, think about it, do we want Pence for half a year or four years?
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Old 30th September 2019, 05:49 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Can an impeachment inquiry compel immunity?

The Power to Compel Testimony and Disclosure
I'm not sure. But these notes don't belong to Giuliani. They are either from his work as President Trump's personal attorney and as we have seen with Michael Cohen there are many limitations to attorney client privilege. Or they belong to the United States of America because Rudy was working for the government. I don't buy that liasing with foreign governments in a matter that POTUS and SOSUS were involved can be credibly called the work of a private attorney.

Quote:
the rule that documents which are part of the official records of government are wholly outside the scope of the privilege; public records are the property of government and are always accessible to inspection. Because government requires certain records to be kept to facilitate the regulation of the business being conducted, so the reasoning goes, the records become public at least to the degree that government could always scrutinize them without hindrance from the record-keeper.
https://law.justia.com/constitution/...isclosure.html
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Old 30th September 2019, 08:09 PM   #471
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
There is already a subpoena that Trump is fighting to get his financial records from Deutsche Bank and his tax records are part of that. Then there was that NY State investigation looking at his state tax records. That is also tied up in the courts which is Trump's modus operandi.

There is still one of the emoluments cases in the courts. They weren't both stalled under a no standing charge. So no need to add that to the impeachment. The Brookings panel this morning thought the emoluments issue was weak in terms of impeachment. Take a look at the link to that panel discussion in my post upthread. You can click on any segment in the transcript and that part of the discussion will play.

One of the issues they pointed out is too many subpoenas and you risk Trump tying it up in the courts until after the election. While that may seem OK, think about it, do we want Pence for half a year or four years?
Impeachment has the potential of fast-tracking the tax return. Those other cases are likely to drag on past the election.

Emoluments has the important added benefit of being relatively easy for the public to understand. Did the panel consider the PR aspect, or just legal?
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Old 30th September 2019, 08:24 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Impeachment has the potential of fast-tracking the tax return. Those other cases are likely to drag on past the election.

Emoluments has the important added benefit of being relatively easy for the public to understand. Did the panel consider the PR aspect, or just legal?
From the link:
Quote:
.... WE HAVE SOME AREAS IN WHICH THERE IS VERY STRONG EVIDENCE BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR IT'S IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT. EVIDENCE OF WRONGDOING. THE STORMY DANIELS PAYMENTS, PRE-PRESIDENTIAL CONDUCT THAT IMPLICATES CAMPAIGN-FINANCE LAW. WE HAVE A CLEAR EVIDENTIARY RECORD BUT THE QUESTION OF WHETHER PRE-PRESIDENTIAL CONDUCT WOULD FALL WITHIN THAT STARTS TO BECOME MORE DIFFICULT. THE EMOLUMENTS CLAUSE'S VIOLATION, VERY SERIOUS EMOLUMENT'S CLAUSE'S VIOLATION, VERY SERIOUS QUESTIONS, SOME OPEN QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION, CONGRESS IS NOT YET TAKEN STEPS TO MAKE THE LAWS. GENUINE POLICY DIFFERENCES, EVEN THINGS WE MIGHT FIND PERSONALLY ABHORRENT LIKE FAMILY SEPARATION WHICH IS A POLICY DISAGREEMENT, YOU DON'T GET TO IMPEACH FOR THAT. THERE IS A DIFFERENT CATEGORY WHICH IS UNSATISFYING TO LEAVE THAT ON THE TABLE. THERE'S ANOTHER CATEGORY OF PLAINLY IMPEACHABLE CONDUCT IN WHICH THE EVIDENCE IS NOT QUITE STRONG ENOUGH. TO PRESIDENT
So the assessment was, good evidence but is it an impeachable offense?

I think we sometimes don't step back and look objectively at things we find abhorrent and I think that is what the panel participant was saying.
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Old 1st October 2019, 02:40 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I stand by the claim.
You stand by a claim you demolished yourself. Ok.
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Old 1st October 2019, 02:56 AM   #474
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So the Russian Probe lead to the Mueller Report which lead to Impeachment which, the plan is, will lead to Trump's tax return which will finally and this time we mean be the thing that will take down Trump... until it doesn't and then I'm sure we're gonna be assured in no uncertain terms and we mean it this time that whatever we find in tax return is going to need to be investigated and when we investigate that I'm sure we'll finally find the thing that's gonna take down Trump...
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Old 1st October 2019, 04:04 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So the Russian Probe lead to the Mueller Report which lead to Impeachment which, the plan is, will lead to Trump's tax return which will finally and this time we mean be the thing that will take down Trump... until it doesn't and then I'm sure we're gonna be assured in no uncertain terms and we mean it this time that whatever we find in tax return is going to need to be investigated and when we investigate that I'm sure we'll finally find the thing that's gonna take down Trump...
Don't you find that things are a bit different this time, though?
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Old 1st October 2019, 04:45 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
So the Russian Probe lead to the Mueller Report which lead to Impeachment which, the plan is, will lead to Trump's tax return which will finally and this time we mean be the thing that will take down Trump... until it doesn't and then I'm sure we're gonna be assured in no uncertain terms and we mean it this time that whatever we find in tax return is going to need to be investigated and when we investigate that I'm sure we'll finally find the thing that's gonna take down Trump...



Oh, but whining about what Democrats are doing--Now that is sure to work!

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Old 1st October 2019, 04:47 AM   #477
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
From the link:So the assessment was, good evidence but is it an impeachable offense?

I think we sometimes don't step back and look objectively at things we find abhorrent and I think that is what the panel participant was saying.
I wish I had time to view the presentation you cited. Alas.

My take-away is the panel is looking at things strictly from a legal perspective. I think the PR perspective needs to be prioritized. It's not like the Senate will actually convict on anything.
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Old 1st October 2019, 04:49 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I wish I had time to view the presentation you cited. Alas.

My take-away is the panel is looking at things strictly from a legal perspective. I think the PR perspective needs to be prioritized. It's not like the Senate will actually convict on anything.
Since it takes 2/3's majority, yeah, I'm not holding my breath on conviction.

The process itself would be valuable though. Hell, even just a 51 vote majority for conviction would be politically damning, even if not causing removal.

Get these goons on the stand and have them go over their various misdeeds in excruciating detail. Especially on the emoluments stuff, detailing all the petty grifts would be quite instructive.
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Old 1st October 2019, 04:54 AM   #479
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Senate is going to dismiss...
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Old 1st October 2019, 05:34 AM   #480
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
Oh, but whining about what Democrats are doing--Now that is sure to work!
The biggest oddity about JM's post is not the whininess. It's that he's pretending that there have been any efforts at all to "take down Trump" or promises that they would do so. In reality, they've been doing nothing and promising nothing from it. And given how absurdly gigantic Trump's been making the case against himself, "nothing" is actually less than nothing; it's going out of their way to protect him.
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