ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Congressional hearings , donald trump , impeachment , Trump administration , Trump controversies

Closed Thread
Old 10th October 2019, 05:57 PM   #641
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 46,131
And the charges against Trump are a hell of a lot more serious then those against Clinton.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 05:58 PM   #642
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,075
Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
The situation is starting to look pretty similar to Clinton. He will be impeached in the house, but not convicted in the Senate. Will all this make a difference during the election? Clinton commanded a much higher approval rating during his impeachment, we will see what happens with Trump.
Yeah his impeachment certainly kept Clinton out of his third term.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:03 PM   #643
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,075
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And the charges against Trump are a hell of a lot more serious then those against Clinton.
That and I've long said that at no point did the Republicans ever really seriously consider the possibility that Clinton was going to be convicted in the Senate. The '98 Republicans were many various kinds of stupid, but they weren't that politically clueless.

Clinton's entire impeachment was character assassination, and a masterful job of it at that.

I mean this was late 98, early 99. Clinton's term was already practically over by the time it was all said and done. This was just part of the '00 Republican Presidential Campaign. Get "Slick Willy" to be forced to talk about his sexual exploits to a voter base that still considered sex with the lights on as too risque and run George W. Bush on a vague "family values" and "bringing dignity back to the White House" message.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 10th October 2019 at 06:07 PM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:18 PM   #644
slyjoe
Graduate Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins
Posts: 1,739
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm very sorry. It wasn't meant to be snarky, and it wasn't directed at you.

I think you must have missed the point of my original comment. It was snarky, and was directed at the meme that McDonald's food is unhealthy or poisonous. It seems like a stupid meme, on a forum supposedly dedicated to reason and science. It seems especially stupid now that any rational person can look at a menu and see that a Big Mac has exactly the same healthful qualities as any other collection of ground beef, bread, cheese, lettuce and thousand island dressing. But no. We still get the stale old "bohoho McDonald's is poison!"

It's stupid.

I'm glad you find the info helpful. I know a lot of people do. This isn't about you, or them.
Thanks for that. I actually agree with you - I did miss your previous post.
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:30 PM   #645
Marcus
Illuminator
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,105
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is such a false equivalence.

You don't know how it is going to play out. (None of us do.)

It wasn't just Clinton's high approval rating, a majority of the public thought the crime was petty. The Republican legislators kept performing their faux outrage about Clinton's horrible lying to the public or whatever. They failed to move the needle.**

Trump is obnoxious in the opinion of many. His crimes keep adding up. Russian interference, Trump refuses to support let alone enact any measures to stop it. Then he's asked China and the Ukraine to dig up dirt on his competition. Now his lawyer, Giuliani, is caught with two foreigners who created a faux LLC-owned PAC supporting Trump and stuffed it with foreign cash.

The snowball is rolling down the hill and it's growing. Time to stop with the nonsensical comparison to Clinton unless one is posting about why there is no match there.



**Laughable given the liar in chief and the perjury of a SCOTUS judge during his confirmation hearing the GOP is fawning over now.

We only have two recent impeachments to compare to, Clinton and Nixon. Nixon saw that he was going to be convicted in the Senate and resigned. Yes I am speculating, as are we all, my speculation is that Trump will be impeached in the house but not convicted in the senate, and will not resign. Sure I could be wrong, and I will happily admit it if Trump resigns or is convicted, you might have noticed that I would not consider this a bad outcome.
Marcus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:34 PM   #646
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,198
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
That and I've long said that at no point did the Republicans ever really seriously consider the possibility that Clinton was going to be convicted in the Senate. The '98 Republicans were many various kinds of stupid, but they weren't that politically clueless.

Clinton's entire impeachment was character assassination, and a masterful job of it at that.

I mean this was late 98, early 99. Clinton's term was already practically over by the time it was all said and done. This was just part of the '00 Republican Presidential Campaign. Get "Slick Willy" to be forced to talk about his sexual exploits to a voter base that still considered sex with the lights on as too risque and run George W. Bush on a vague "family values" and "bringing dignity back to the White House" message.
I would argue it wasn't masterful at all. It was clumsy and ridiculous. And the difference between how Bill addressed it and how the Donald is addressing it couldn't be more stark. Bill's White House was disciplined. Donald's is a mess. If you look at that time, quite a bit of legislation was passed despite a Republican Congress.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:38 PM   #647
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,075
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I would argue it wasn't masterful at all. It was clumsy and ridiculous.
Call it what you will, it worked. "The Family Values Crowd" seeking to right the wrong of the Office of the President being held by some sexually liberal pervert lead to the Bush years.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:39 PM   #648
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 10,279
Less than two hours ago, CBS News reported:
Quote:
Federal prosecutors in New York formally announced federal campaign finance charges on Thursday against two foreign-born men who aided Rudy Giuliani, the president's personal attorney, in his efforts to investigate Joe and Hunter Biden. Shortly after the announcement, the Democratic House committees leading the impeachment inquiry into President Trump announced they have subpoenaed Parnas and Furman.

The men were arrested at Dulles International Airport [Wednesday evening] as they were about to board an international flight on one-way tickets, according to U.S. Attorney for the Southern District Geoffrey Berman, who said at a press conference that protecting the integrity of U.S. elections from foreign influence is of primary importance to his office. Link
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:55 PM   #649
newyorkguy
Penultimate Amazing
 
newyorkguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: NY
Posts: 10,279
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Call it what you will, it worked...lead to the Bush years.
With some help:
Quote:
2000 Presidential Elections Results
  • George Bush - 50,456,002
  • Al Gore - 50,999,897
Two out of the past two Republican presidents won a first term despite losing the popular vote. It really stinks.
newyorkguy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 06:55 PM   #650
Marcus
Illuminator
 
Marcus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,105
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Call it what you will, it worked. "The Family Values Crowd" seeking to right the wrong of the Office of the President being held by some sexually liberal pervert lead to the Bush years.
It certainly had an effect. Not so much getting BJ's and having fun with cigars per se, but cheating on your wife. These days, not so much. Even Melania doesn't seem to mind being cheated on, Republicans would rather not talk about it , even Democrats don't seem to dwell on it, perhaps they are afraid of appearing hypocritical.
Marcus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 07:03 PM   #651
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,518
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
With some help:



Two out of the past two Republican presidents won a first term despite losing the popular vote. It really stinks.
I'd say it's working exactly as designed and intended. Smoothing out the majority-minority variances of the states via the electoral college always meant that a majority of states could potentially elect a president even if a majority of voters did not. That possibility was part of the whole point of setting it up that way.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 07:13 PM   #652
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say it's working exactly as designed and intended. Smoothing out the majority-minority variances of the states via the electoral college always meant that a majority of states could potentially elect a president even if a majority of voters did not. That possibility was part of the whole point of setting it up that way.
Well, it failed. I know you're educated enough to know why it was REALLY set up that way.... to prevent the ignorant masses from electing a, say, incompetent lying boob with populist followers. It was designed to make sure "the right people" held power and so that the wiser heads in the state organizations could prevail over demagogues like Jackson and Trump. It's an elitist oligarchical rule. Core Republican values should hate everything about it.

Ah, but, it gets them the White House every few terms so it's okay, right?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 07:21 PM   #653
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,518
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Well, it failed. I know you're educated enough to know why it was REALLY set up that way.... to prevent the ignorant masses from electing a, say, incompetent lying boob with populist followers. It was designed to make sure "the right people" held power and so that the wiser heads in the state organizations could prevail over demagogues like Jackson and Trump. It's an elitist oligarchical rule. Core Republican values should hate everything about it.



Ah, but, it gets them the White House every few terms so it's okay, right?
Huh.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 07:43 PM   #654
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,198
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Call it what you will, it worked. "The Family Values Crowd" seeking to right the wrong of the Office of the President being held by some sexually liberal pervert lead to the Bush years.
No it didn't. Al Gore and the electoral college led to W being elected. Clinton was enormously popular and if the Constitution would have allowed it would have won a third term in a landslide. Bill was incredibly charming and charismatic. Gore was more boring than plain white rice.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 08:02 PM   #655
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Huh.
Nominated.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 08:33 PM   #656
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,198
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'd say it's working exactly as designed and intended. Smoothing out the majority-minority variances of the states via the electoral college always meant that a majority of states could potentially elect a president even if a majority of voters did not. That possibility was part of the whole point of setting it up that way.
C'mon Prestige. As a career sales man, i know bull ****. And my friend that is USDA Grade A manure.

The electoral college was created for two main reasons. To offset the powerful monied interests in NY, MA and PA. Also there was practicallity issues having a nation-wide popular vote. It was part of the great compromise necessary to keep the Southern States from bolting.

There are some great books on the writing of the Constitution or you could just download a copy of the Federalist Papers for free which were written mostly by Hamilton and Madison. Which are a bit harder to understand since our language has changed a bit since then.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 10th October 2019 at 08:34 PM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 09:17 PM   #657
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
 
a_unique_person's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open.
Posts: 41,307
IIRC it was also to stop people like Trump making President. The EC was supposed to be a level headed, last bastion of defence from populists. It was not intended to be a mere formality. Otherwise you could just replace it with a tally sheet.
__________________
Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable.
For if a man pretend to me that God hath spoken to him supernaturally, and immediately, and I make doubt of it, I cannot easily perceive what argument he can produce to oblige me to believe it. Hobbes
a_unique_person is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 10:15 PM   #658
Delvo
الشيطان الأبيض
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,153
Another part of how you can tell at a glance that it isn't really about empowering the rural minority against domination by the urban majority is that the ratios never get adjusted to account for population shifts.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 10:32 PM   #659
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 41,468
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Another part of how you can tell at a glance that it isn't really about empowering the rural minority against domination by the urban majority is that the ratios never get adjusted to account for population shifts.
???

The adjustments can't keep up with the population shifts but the adjustments do get made after every census.

The problem isn't with the mechanisms to adjust. The problem is that there is no fair way to adjust as long as the population is growing and there's a cap on the House of Representatives. When that cap was placed there were less than 100 million people in the US.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 11:16 PM   #660
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,641
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I would argue it wasn't masterful at all. It was clumsy and ridiculous. And the difference between how Bill addressed it and how the Donald is addressing it couldn't be more stark. Bill's White House was disciplined. Donald's is a mess. If you look at that time, quite a bit of legislation was passed despite a Republican Congress.
The Republican party in 1999 also isn't the same as the Republican party in 2019. There was a substantial amount of bad politics and vile present in 1999, but that was all nothing compared to what they are in 2019. Things were going in the same direction twenty years ago, but they were nowhere near as far.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 06:59 AM   #661
slyjoe
Graduate Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins
Posts: 1,739
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
???

The adjustments can't keep up with the population shifts but the adjustments do get made after every census.

The problem isn't with the mechanisms to adjust. The problem is that there is no fair way to adjust as long as the population is growing and there's a cap on the House of Representatives. When that cap was placed there were less than 100 million people in the US.
Correct. And to apply the founders' thinking to today ignores the fact the country is a LOT different. In 1788, the US electoral college was a lot flatter - 3 to 10 electoral votes per state.

__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 07:03 AM   #662
slyjoe
Graduate Poster
 
slyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Near Harmonica Virgins
Posts: 1,739
And in news related to the topic, has anyone heard of Fiona Hill? Set to testify Monday.

Evidently she was a pretty big wig in the NSC policy area until July.


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...c-rss_20191011
__________________
"You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade
slyjoe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 07:29 AM   #663
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,882
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Clinton's entire impeachment was character assassination, and a masterful job of it at that.
I'll say. It's the start of the Hillary smear campaign that led to Trump.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 07:32 AM   #664
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 86,882
Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
With some help:

Two out of the past two Republican presidents won a first term despite losing the popular vote. It really stinks.
It's only going to get worse. The Republicans probably surmise that they can't win a lot of general elections without cheating. So what do they do? They cheat.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 08:17 AM   #665
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 26,010
It is perhaps worth bearing in mind when thinking about the Senate that Trump is currently losing support there over Syria. Whether that loss will be substantial enough to make a difference, and whether that loss is real rather than lip-service remains to be seen. But the current direction of movement for Senate Republicans is away from Trump.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 08:24 AM   #666
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,075
The problem is that Republican Senators know that even if the abandon Trump now they'll pay for the sin of Trump forever.

Again if "forgiveness" or similar concepts (if even on a purely political level) are off the table why should they bother dropping their support?

They know that (g)we will horde the sin of supporting for Trump over their head forever. We aren't giving them any reason to shift allegiance or soften their support.

They turn on Trump and support impeachment or even just stand back and let it happen more passively they'll lose Republican support without any gain in Democratic support. There's no percentage for them in that.

Support isn't a zero sum game.
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 08:30 AM   #667
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 21,075
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It's only going to get worse. The Republicans probably surmise that they can't win a lot of general elections without cheating. So what do they do? They cheat.
And they've sold the "We're not cheating, we're just evening the playing field" lie pretty well.

"Hell sure the electoral college ain't fair, but at least it's official unfairness built within the system and it keeps da libruls from winning by bringing busloads of illegal brown folks to vote."
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset
- "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal
- "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 08:46 AM   #668
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 19,502
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem is that Republican Senators know that even if the abandon Trump now they'll pay for the sin of Trump forever.

Again if "forgiveness" or similar concepts (if even on a purely political level) are off the table why should they bother dropping their support?

They know that (g)we will horde the sin of supporting for Trump over their head forever. We aren't giving them any reason to shift allegiance or soften their support.

They turn on Trump and support impeachment or even just stand back and let it happen more passively they'll lose Republican support without any gain in Democratic support. There's no percentage for them in that.

Support isn't a zero sum game.
The GOP senators don't fear Trump's childish taunts, they fear voters who follow his childish taunts.

it looks like his personal media network is starting to turn on Trump. If that happens does his base follow the Fox or the Hair?
__________________
Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa

If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:05 AM   #669
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,198
Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Correct. And to apply the founders' thinking to today ignores the fact the country is a LOT different. In 1788, the US electoral college was a lot flatter - 3 to 10 electoral votes per state.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...08a7703023.jpg
And it should be mentioned that the founders EXPECTED frequent Constitutional Conventions. The previous Constitution to the US lasted only 8 years. Jefferson and Adams thought it was hubris to think they should be setting rules for future generations. Everyone keeps pointing at the founders as if they were writing scripture. They certainly were fallible. The electoral college, the Senate, a slave counting as 3/5ths of a person, no rights for women. The second amendment. Yeah, the founders made mistakes, but the biggest mistake it made was in making it too difficult to ammend.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:13 AM   #670
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,198
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The problem is that Republican Senators know that even if the abandon Trump now they'll pay for the sin of Trump forever.

Again if "forgiveness" or similar concepts (if even on a purely political level) are off the table why should they bother dropping their support?

They know that (g)we will horde the sin of supporting for Trump over their head forever. We aren't giving them any reason to shift allegiance or soften their support.

They turn on Trump and support impeachment or even just stand back and let it happen more passively they'll lose Republican support without any gain in Democratic support. There's no percentage for them in that.

Support isn't a zero sum game.
I'm not sure about forever. I can't tell you how many aticles in the last 40 years I've read that said one party or the other will never recover. And yet they always do.

Nixon was impeached and the Republicans saw big losses in 1976. And in 1980 won the Presidency and the Senate. Memories are short. You'll be amazed at how fast things can and do change.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:25 AM   #671
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,965
Quote:
Parnas and Furman
One thing I'll say, that's a great name for a duo.
__________________
Science is self-correcting.
Woo is self-contradicting.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:29 AM   #672
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,837
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure about forever. I can't tell you how many aticles in the last 40 years I've read that said one party or the other will never recover. And yet they always do.

Nixon was impeached and the Republicans saw big losses in 1976. And in 1980 won the Presidency and the Senate. Memories are short. You'll be amazed at how fast things can and do change.
This is the central thesis in [The Lost Majority]. Politics is like sports, in that voters seem to have a strange loyalty to a brand that survives all sorts of transgressions and is untethered to policy. This is how my dad went from "Free Trade is the Only Way, anybody who denies that is a TRAITOR," to "Free Trade is TREASON!" at the drop of a hat when the Tories reversed their platform a few years ago.

Parties want votes. They'll adjust their platform and hype/invent rivals' scandals.

There is a theory that the US political system undergoes chaotic restructuring about every 25-30 years, with the parties undertaking dramatic updates to their platforms.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett

Last edited by blutoski; 11th October 2019 at 09:31 AM. Reason: ETA: added link
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:33 AM   #673
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,837
Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
The GOP senators don't fear Trump's childish taunts, they fear voters who follow his childish taunts.

it looks like his personal media network is starting to turn on Trump. If that happens does his base follow the Fox or the Hair?
I really, really like that one. Is that yours?
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:38 AM   #674
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,837
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
???

The adjustments can't keep up with the population shifts but the adjustments do get made after every census.

The problem isn't with the mechanisms to adjust. The problem is that there is no fair way to adjust as long as the population is growing and there's a cap on the House of Representatives. When that cap was placed there were less than 100 million people in the US.
I feel that the House is reasonably balanced population-representation-wise, thus the need to gerrymander.

The 'thumb-on-the-scale' for low population regions is in the Senate (two votes per state regardless of population) and Electoral College (minimum two votes per state, plus extra depending on population).
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:41 AM   #675
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,837
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No it didn't. Al Gore and the electoral college led to W being elected. Clinton was enormously popular and if the Constitution would have allowed it would have won a third term in a landslide. Bill was incredibly charming and charismatic. Gore was more boring than plain white rice.
My interpretation of the 2000 election was that the Judicial branch was instrumental in handing a victory to the loser because the majority was politically aligned. Thus cementing the importance of getting one's own partisan judges into the Supreme Court.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 09:47 AM   #676
Babbylonian
Penultimate Amazing
 
Babbylonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,996
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I feel that the House is reasonably balanced population-representation-wise, thus the need to gerrymander.
No, it's not reasonably balanced. For example, Wyoming has 1 representative in the House while California has 53. If things were balanced between those two states, California would have 68 representatives. A 15-representative deficit isn't a rounding error.
Babbylonian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 10:03 AM   #677
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
This is the central thesis in [The Lost Majority]. Politics is like sports, in that voters seem to have a strange loyalty to a brand that survives all sorts of transgressions and is untethered to policy.
It's so much like sports, political TV coverage is almost indistinguishable from ESPN!
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 10:40 AM   #678
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 23,198
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
This is the central thesis in [The Lost Majority]. Politics is like sports, in that voters seem to have a strange loyalty to a brand that survives all sorts of transgressions and is untethered to policy. This is how my dad went from "Free Trade is the Only Way, anybody who denies that is a TRAITOR," to "Free Trade is TREASON!" at the drop of a hat when the Tories reversed their platform a few years ago.

Parties want votes. They'll adjust their platform and hype/invent rivals' scandals.

There is a theory that the US political system undergoes chaotic restructuring about every 25-30 years, with the parties undertaking dramatic updates to their platforms.
I haven't read it. But I agree with it mostly. I have been asking people for years why they support or identify with one party or another and the vast majority don't know or give answers that don't square with reality. This is my team and I'm sticking with it.
__________________
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me.
.

Last edited by acbytesla; 11th October 2019 at 10:54 AM.
acbytesla is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 10:44 AM   #679
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,631
Rudy's in trouble, according to a really reliable twitter person:
https://twitter.com/nycsouthpaw/stat...06659103301632
Quote:
ABC matches CNN's reporting that the president's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, is a subject of the criminal investigation that has already resulted in the arrest of two of his associates.
Nothing I didn't assume, but it's nice to see.
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 11:40 AM   #680
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 23,775
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I feel that the House is reasonably balanced population-representation-wise, thus the need to gerrymander.

The 'thumb-on-the-scale' for low population regions is in the Senate (two votes per state regardless of population) and Electoral College (minimum two votes per state, plus extra depending on population).
Nitpick: Three EC votes minimum per state, one for each Senator and Representative.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:31 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.