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Old 17th November 2009, 12:30 AM   #1
NWO Sentryman
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Venus project Woo.

I'm Currenty debating someone on the venus project.
Quote:
LOL, I find it amusing that you think YOU thought of something that Fresco (a man of extraordinary brilliance) hasn't considered. The technology he mentions is "automated" based on a set of rules, conditions, & facts. This is different than "artificial intelligence" which can evolve. (i.e. If I set my air conditioning to 70, & it gets hot in here (say 75) the air conditioning turns on. It doesn't say "Gee, I often turn on at 1pm on Tuesdays, so I think I'll just start doing that on my own.")
Quote:
Furthermore, 2answer ur "what if" questions, let's say it DID malfunction (because "corruption" implies an agenda) - as I said before, TVP technology is harmless! If the flatscreen TV's in our homes that relay our favorite music, decided 2memorize our favorite music & play it constantly, no one would DIE! We'd just b a little annoyed until it's fixed. The large & powerful machines that build houses could malfunction & need repair, but they're not going2 randomly grow flame throwers & attack us!
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Self-aware w/ what arms? The technology used in TVP is 2 "test the nutrients" in the soil 4better crop growth, etc... r the machines going 2become self-aware & "nutrient" us 2 death? This is not a sci-fi action movie like Terminator, where the machines were equipped 4war! In fact, we'd live in a society w/out war. TVP machinery would perform simple mundane tasks 2free human hands & increase productivity. No one freaks out that their laptop is going2 attack them, but yet TVP is soooo scary!
Quote:
If you were more educated on the subject, you would see that it's not going to "magically" solve anything, it's "scientifically" going to solve it, which is quite different. Science is based on facts. Frankly, solving anything "magically" or "scientifically" is better than solving it "politically" like their trying to do today, and failing miserably!
Any takers?
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Old 17th November 2009, 12:41 AM   #2
Bob Blaylock
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I'm Currenty debating someone on the venus project.

Any takers?

Why bother? Based on the level of illiteracy displayed in the text that you've quoted; you're trying to argue with an unintelligent cretin, on whom any attempt at an intelligent debate would be wasted.
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Old 17th November 2009, 01:16 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman View Post
I'm Currenty debating someone on the venus project.
I significantly doubt that any supporter of the Venus project is capable of a debate. They may be capable of yelling and screaming and pass that as debate, but that's where it ends.

Quote:
Any takers?
Just one or two, maybe, for the first:
If you're correct, that would indicate that the VP is based on a static world view, and a static society that can not evolve and change. As you said it yourself, it is not based on artificial intelligence, and thus canont evolve by itself. The colloquial word for that is a dinosaur, and it's liable to go extinct when it's no longer able to cope with change.

And for the second:
Who and why will develop technology required to run the VP? Where will it be first built and by whom? If the first statement is to be correct, all technology presented in the VP will necessarily have to be developed before VP.

I don't expect the VPer to respond well to this line of inquiry. They can cope well with combating people who say they're wrong, but probably can't cope at all with the tactic of assuming they're right and showing them that even in that case, their ideas are still wrong

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Old 17th November 2009, 03:07 AM   #4
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Well I first rolled my eyes when the statement started with LOL. I propose an internet law that states that a response that begins with LOL is by default lacking in any real depth. The next thing that got me was the middle school writing style, which doesn't make me believe the writer is anyone out of high school, if even a high schooler. I suppose the writer could have been heavily influenced by Prince, but I really doubt that.

On the substance of the arguments presented...there are none. All of it is hand waving, and throwing around the word scientifically as if it actually means anything within the context of the response.

My diagnosis is that you are talking with a child, and like most proponents of the Venus Project they don't have the level of forward thought to really consider the long lasting implications of attempting such a system. The dream of a machine utopia trumps the practical in the minds of the proponent.
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Old 17th November 2009, 04:05 AM   #5
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My favorite thing to inquire of Venus Project Wooists is how exactly they plan to run government. The answer, of course, is "government will run in a scientific manner and make decisions using a scientific method." I then ask them to tell me how the scientific method would evaluate medicaid.

The answer, of course, is that if we do a total cost versus benefits analysis of medicaid we find that the cost to society, in terms of those costs which we can actually measure, is greater than the benefit we derive as a society. That is because science has no method to assign a value to the intrinsic worth of human life. Thus, the type of decisions advocated by Venus Project Woos ("scientific" decision making via robots) would dictate that the Venus Project society would turn into some strange form of social Darwinism/anarchism.

The Venus Project fails even on the surface. It cant even explain how basic social institutions will operate.

My second method of blowing up Venus Project woo minds is even simpler. Ask them one question:
Who is going to fix all these magical robots when, under Venus Project woo, no one in society can be forced to do anything they don't want to do? What happens when something breaks and no one feels like fixing it?

Last edited by LightinDarkness; 17th November 2009 at 04:08 AM.
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Old 17th November 2009, 04:52 AM   #6
fullflavormenthol
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
Who is going to fix all these magical robots when, under Venus Project woo, no one in society can be forced to do anything they don't want to do? What happens when something breaks and no one feels like fixing it?
From my experience they really hate that one, because one of the conclusions is that those who actually learn how to fix the machines would become the de facto elite of the society and would hold the power to dictate what methodology is used.
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Old 17th November 2009, 12:07 PM   #7
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link to the debate:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqplP...&feature=email
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Old 17th November 2009, 02:42 PM   #8
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I waste a lot of time, but I would never participate in a youtube comment section debate (or at least not take it seriously). Here's where you should go if you want to debate the venus project: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/...howcat&catid=3
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Old 17th November 2009, 06:31 PM   #9
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Yes I reccomend the forms.

Lots of crazies but there are reasonable people there too, people that at the very least will Im sure agree you made good points (assuming you have). Just make sure you dont go in guns blazing...

Last edited by Edx; 17th November 2009 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 17th November 2009, 07:22 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by cornsail View Post
I waste a lot of time, but I would never participate in a youtube comment section debate (or at least not take it seriously). Here's where you should go if you want to debate the venus project: http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/...howcat&catid=3
Just remember that by posting and attempting to 'debate' on their territory its just like entering and trying to talk logic and reason on any other woo forum. What I mean is that the posters there have their logic reinforced by other people who want to believe and are not likely to simply change their mind based on the facts. Its a lot like going into the prison planet forums and declaring the NWO to be nothing more than conspiracy fantasy - people are going to get hysterical on you when you question their dogma.

For example, there is a thread in the VP forums where a moderator states that we shouldn't claim that the Venus Project has "minor flaws" just because they haven't yet figured out what to do when someone steals something from you in the VP Utopian world. After all, in VP utopia there is no police force and no one can be forced to do anything - so if I decide to stab you or steal your iPod they aren't quite sure how to fix that. No, because figuring out things like that are so minor.

Last edited by LightinDarkness; 17th November 2009 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 17th November 2009, 08:16 PM   #11
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How do you even get from now to there? Do you just turn off existing economic structures, and declare that "This is Day One"

It's like the road to Brigadoon. You can't get there from here.

Norm
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Old 17th November 2009, 08:25 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post
How do you even get from now to there? Do you just turn off existing economic structures, and declare that "This is Day One"

It's like the road to Brigadoon. You can't get there from here.

Norm
i was going to say someone made the same comparison in the other TVP thread...but it turns out it was you

but yes, it seems to me the "prerequisites" for a TVP society can never be met
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Old 17th November 2009, 09:07 PM   #13
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Quote:
For example, there is a thread in the VP forums where a moderator states that we shouldn't claim that the Venus Project has "minor flaws" just because they haven't yet figured out what to do when someone steals something from you in the VP Utopian world.
I'd be surprised if the moderator meant that in a "do what I say or I'll ban you" sense. The moderation is actually pretty good there for the most part--AFAIK there is a no deletion policy and bans are rare. Also the moderator most hostile toward debunkers was stripped of modship. You are likely to encounter a lot of stupidity from the people who flocked to Zeitgeist from Prison Planet or David Icke or something, but there are some intelligent people there as well.
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Old 17th November 2009, 11:28 PM   #14
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I agree that the machines becoming intelligent and self aware is not too likely if the Venus Project were implemented. And that is more likely a problem than not. One programming mistake and those giant construction machines might end up in an infinite loop and rather unintelligently turn all the world's resources into shiny white buildings, and place them all on scenic but geologically unstable sights (seriously, what is it with all these buildings on rocks near the ocean?) all while apparently not damaging the immaculately manicured lawns with their caterpillar tracks.

Well, that's assuming it gets that far. If I look at the pictures on the Venus Project website, it doesn't look like there will be much infrastructure for these machines to move from one construction sight to the next.
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Old 17th November 2009, 11:44 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
My favorite thing to inquire of Venus Project Wooists is how exactly they plan to run government. The answer, of course, is "government will run in a scientific manner and make decisions using a scientific method."
No, the answer they would give is "there will be no government". It is basically anarcho-communism but on shakier philosophical grounds and fewer ideas on how to structure a government so that it will eventually make itself "whither away".

Quote:
Who is going to fix all these magical robots when, under Venus Project woo, no one in society can be forced to do anything they don't want to do?
No. No one can be forced to do anything

Quote:
What happens when something breaks and no one feels like fixing it?
Computers! Robots!

Originally Posted by LightinDarkness View Post
... they haven't yet figured out what to do when someone steals something from you in the VP Utopian world.
The idea is that there will be such abundance that no one will bother to steal.
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Old 18th November 2009, 02:18 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
i was going to say someone made the same comparison in the other TVP thread...but it turns out it was you
Actually I "borrowed" it from Robert A Heinlein (Glory Road IIRC)

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Old 19th November 2009, 06:10 AM   #17
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I like this question regarding governance: If 33% want a fountain in the town park, 33% want a flower bed, 33% want a statue of Yoda and the remaining 1% no longer answer polling questions because they are busy with their sex robots, how will the scientific method help in selecting what will be built?

Another interesting question is what would be done with serial killers.
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Old 19th November 2009, 06:21 AM   #18
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The Venus Project puts me in mind of the British guys (Melling, et al) who were going to start building Norton motorcycles about ten years ago. Slick presentation, impressive website, impressive sounding claims backed up by ambiguous technical data.

I'm still waiting for my V-8 powered Norton Nemesis.
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Old 19th November 2009, 08:09 AM   #19
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I like this question regarding governance: If 33% want a fountain in the town park, 33% want a flower bed, 33% want a statue of Yoda and the remaining 1% no longer answer polling questions because they are busy with their sex robots, how will the scientific method help in selecting what will be built?
Somewhat amazingly, science might have an answer to that - build a pond, or something else as much removed from these three options as possible. Not that this is necessarily a good decision.

Quote:
Another interesting question is what would be done with serial killers.
Venus project postulates they would be removed from existence through education. Obviously, they wouldn't be a problem if the basic postulates are true.
They are not, obviously, but that's another debate altogether. Debating the ideas of VP is practically identical to debating the ideas of Commies or Anarchists or similar.

McHrozni
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Old 19th November 2009, 09:15 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I like this question regarding governance: If 33% want a fountain in the town park, 33% want a flower bed, 33% want a statue of Yoda and the remaining 1% no longer answer polling questions because they are busy with their sex robots, how will the scientific method help in selecting what will be built?

Another interesting question is what would be done with serial killers.
Give them lifelike robots to kill?
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