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Old 7th November 2016, 08:48 AM   #401
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are wrong again, I use multiple translations to get the correct understanding—the NIV is just one of them that can be relied on to give a clear understanding.
So, which translation was it that allowed you to completely miss the construction of the second temple, and then confuse the second temple's renovation with the building of a third temple?

By the way, thank you for finally conceding the fact that the Deuteronomy verse we were dissing was in fact about allowing a rapist to avoid execution by buying his victim under certain circumstances. Your choice to quote the NIV translation was a very clear concession on that point.
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Old 7th November 2016, 08:51 AM   #402
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Why did you use a bunch of New Testament verses in a discussion about what the Old Testament says?

What you did makes about as much sense as quoting the Book of Mormon to try and make a point about what the New Testament does or does not say about when Jews first arrived in North America.

Yes, you threw a few Old Testament verses in there as well, but none of them supported your claims. They supported the point Zivan had made.

Were you even paying attention to what Zivan wrote?
It looks like you do not understand as it is so obvious—the righteous can live in the presence of God the Creator---the wicked are destined to live in a place outside the presence of the Creator.

There is nowhere that it says that people will cease to exist----Gen_25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people.

Gen_35:29 Then he breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people, old and full of years. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Deu_32:50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.

So where was this gathering—it was shown by Jesus that Abraham was in a place of no torment. So the righteous who die go to a place of gathering.

So Jesus gives us a clear description of what happens to the righteous and the wicked.
Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

So where are you going when you breath your last??
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:06 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It looks like you do not understand as it is so obvious—the righteous can live in the presence of God the Creator---the wicked are destined to live in a place outside the presence of the Creator.

There is nowhere that it says that people will cease to exist----Gen_25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people.

Gen_35:29 Then he breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people, old and full of years. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
The same Genesis with the talking snakes? It is to laugh.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Deu_32:50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.

So where was this gathering—it was shown by Jesus that Abraham was in a place of no torment. So the righteous who die go to a place of gathering.
The same Deuteronomy you reject when convenient? It is to laugh.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So Jesus gives us a clear description of what happens to the righteous and the wicked.
The same jebus who hates fig trees? No. All you have is a claim of what he said by someone who wasn't even there.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
More claims of what jebus might have said by people who weren't even there. Superstitious nonsense.
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So where are you going when you breath your last??
There is no evidence that anyone goes anywhere. Even if they did, there is no evidence that it might be your particular demented heaven or hell. Could be Valhalla for all you know.
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:10 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
So, which translation was it that allowed you to completely miss the construction of the second temple, and then confuse the second temple's renovation with the building of a third temple?
Did you not know that there were three temples constructed on the same site—there was the temple built by Solomon, then the Temple built by Zerubbabel on the ruins of the first temple, then there was the Temple built by Herod.

Quote:
Zerubbabel’s Temple After the return of the Jews from captivity, Cyrus authorized the erection of a temple in Jerusalem (Ezra 6:3) Construction was begun in 537 B.C. which was the second year after their return. The plan in general followed that of Solomon’s templebut on a far less elaborate scale (Ezra 3:12).
Many of the vessels from Solomon’s temple were destroyed. The Holy of Holies was left empty because the Ark of the Covenant had disappeared. Later Zerubbabel’s temple was plundered and used for idolatrous purposes. http://www.biblecharts.org/bibleland...%20Temples.pdf
Quote:
By the way, thank you for finally conceding the fact that the Deuteronomy verse we were dissing was in fact about allowing a rapist to avoid execution by buying his victim under certain circumstances. Your choice to quote the NIV translation was a very clear concession on that point.
Wrong I do not agree that the man raped the girl—he seduced her, not rape. So as I stated the man must marry the girl. If a man rapes a virgin, then he must die.

This is why there are so many single mothers as they are called—the man runs off. Not only that he seduces another girl and so it goes on—so the law promulgated in Israel was to prevent this.

Besides if the girl does not stay with the first man and marries another then they will be committing adultery----I am sure by this time you see the reasoning??
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:12 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are wrong again, I use multiple translations to get the correct understanding—
No, you plug keywords into your computer Bible search software and other such electronic tools and use whichever translation best seems to support your preconceived belief, regardless of whether it's understood by scholars to be a good translation or not. You've been caught at least twice in the past year touting as "good" translations which are known to be bad and which have led you into specific failures, not the least of which is that glaring reason you want to pretend the Mizvot thread doesn't exist.

I never disputed that you use multiple translations. But my argument still stands that you don't discriminate between good and bad translations, and you can't because you don't know the original languages. The argument still stands that you don't get the correct understanding because you fall into the pitfalls dug by incompetent translation. And I have presented the facts to back my accusation.

Quote:
You are wrong on so many occasions citing things that are so far removed from the actual truth.
Be a good little prophet and try to come up with a better argument than bald-faced denial in the face of fact.
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:13 AM   #406
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The same Genesis with the talking snakes? It is to laugh.

The same Deuteronomy you reject when convenient? It is to laugh.

The same jebus who hates fig trees? No. All you have is a claim of what he said by someone who wasn't even there.

More claims of what jebus might have said by people who weren't even there. Superstitious nonsense.
There is no evidence that anyone goes anywhere. Even if they did, there is no evidence that it might be your particular demented heaven or hell. Could be Valhalla for all you know.
If that makes you happy—then go for it!!
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:15 AM   #407
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are wrong again, I use multiple translations to get the correct understanding—the NIV is just one of them that can be relied on to give a clear understanding.


You are wrong on so many occasions citing things that are so far removed from the actual truth.
How can you be certain that the translations are accurate if you can't read the original? Halleyscomet has shown that the same verse's meaning can change dramatically depending on which version you choose.

Your "flexible" approach to the meaning of words demonstrates to most of us that when the actual meaning of the words is at odds with what a zealot wants those words to mean, those words will be read in whatever way the zealot wishes them to say. Your earlier interpretation of virgin as being able to encompass sexually active men is a prime example.
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:20 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so--- many of the translations are very well studied to enhance the actual meaning---nothing dishonest about that--there is a project to translate the original copies as there is no original Script.

No Sir I have complete confidence that what we have is adequate in giving us a clear revelation of what the Creator intended us to know about his will and purpose.
Mr. Bethke:

You do not understand why your version du jour chooses to render a given word in a given way; you are too busy version-shopping and cherry-picking in hopes of creating a semblance of support for your own prejudices to be aware of the editorial decisions being made.

You are making the same kind of error Sir Isaac Newton made when he insisted that the Rainbow has seven (not six) fundamental divisions. You really ought to let what is determine what you believe, and not the other way 'round...
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:22 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
If that makes you happy—then go for it!!
Bow before Zeus, the one true king of the gods.
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:22 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Again you present a fair response—but I rely more on the teachings of Jesus than that of Buddha.

The crux of the matter, is that we who have repented and are born of the Word of God are equipped here on earth to be able to enter into the presence of the Creator—those who have not repented will not be able to abide in his presence.

So hell as Jesus taught is a place prepared for the sinner who will not repent.---- Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

People can reject what Jesus said about hell—but that will not change the destination of sinners who do not repent.

Where will your final abode be??
...none of which has any bearing on the fact that the Tanakh does not contain any reference to "hell"...

So much for "infallible, perfect understanding".
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:25 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It looks like you do not understand as it is so obvious—the righteous can live in the presence of God the Creator---the wicked are destined to live in a place outside the presence of the Creator.

There is nowhere that it says that people will cease to exist----Gen_25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people.

Gen_35:29 Then he breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people, old and full of years. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Deu_32:50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.

So where was this gathering—it was shown by Jesus that Abraham was in a place of no torment. So the righteous who die go to a place of gathering.
Most of us refer to these places as "graveyards" or "cemeteries." It is quite common to bury people in a common area with the previously deceased of one's family, to gather the dead family members in one place with "their people." The quotes you've selected from the result of your keyword search do not support the idea of life after death, but do point towards family centric burial practices, such as family crypts.

Quote:
So Jesus gives us a clear description of what happens to the righteous and the wicked.
Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

So where are you going when you breath your last??
Once again, you fail to understand that New Testament quotes do NOT support your assertion that the OT refers to life after death.
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:30 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, you plug keywords into your computer Bible search software and other such electronic tools and use whichever translation best seems to support your preconceived belief, regardless of whether it's understood by scholars to be a good translation or not. You've been caught at least twice in the past year touting as "good" translations which are known to be bad and which have led you into specific failures, not the least of which is that glaring reason you want to pretend the Mizvot thread doesn't exist.
I told you that you are wrong, I use the NIV, and compare other translations when necessary—the Mitsvot are an integral part of the Scriptures, because they are taken from the Scriptures—so do all apply to everyone or do some apply to everyone?

Before one can be examined by the Mitsvot –marriage must be ascertained, either to be sanctified or adulterous.
Quote:
I never disputed that you use multiple translations. But my argument still stands that you don't discriminate between good and bad translations, and you can't because you don't know the original languages. The argument still stands that you don't get the correct understanding because you fall into the pitfalls dug by incompetent translation. And I have presented the facts to back my accusation.
Which one of the translations that I use is incompetent---when someone translates from the Hebrew or Greek, they must have a good knowledge of those languages.

Even the Good News Bible has so good translations—it is only where there is a major discrepancy that I look to multiple translations—No Sir you cannot fault me in any way.
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:34 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
These Names all refer to the Creator, the God of Israel—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, so it is perfectly clear to whom I refer—but you seem to be nit picking. Do you know all the Names the God of Israel is addressed by?
What you are missing is that the different "names" by which 'god' is referred to, or addressed, have specific meanings, and are used (properly) in specific contexts--and are represented by different, specific, Hebrew words interpreted in particular ways.

You do not understand why a particular term is used to interpret a precise Hebrew word; your "infallible, perfect understanding" once again founders upon your dependence upon others' interpretations of translations, with no understanding of your own.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You seem to have difficulty reading as I have given the reference to hell as Jesus taught---Mat_25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Not an OT reference, at all (nor is it an eyewitness report of anything any Jesus is to be supposed to have said...). Do stay on topic.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So you say—but you have no proof only—your present state of blasphemy will determine your final abode to be in hell, if you do not repent.
It is, frankly, precious that you still threaten me for "blasphemy" and for "failure to repent" by the terms of your own, personal version of the superstition to which you are in thrall. DO try to keep up.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Jesus said by ones word---so your words will condemn you.--- Mat_12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
I repeat: not an eyewitness record of anything any Jesus is to be supposed to have said...

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Just to add one more--- Mat_23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
...you do realize your Jesus was to be supposed to have said that about...blind guides, and false prophets, right? That's a mirror, Mr. Bethke.
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:36 AM   #414
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You are wrong again, I use multiple translations to get the correct understanding—the NIV is just one of them that can be relied on to give a clear understanding.

You are wrong on so many occasions citing things that are so far removed from the actual truth.
Actually, by your demonstrated practice, you version-shop to find an interpretation that suits your prejudices; even when it contradicts your earlier use of the same verse from a different version...
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:41 AM   #415
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Did you not know that there were three temples constructed on the same site—there was the temple built by Solomon, then the Temple built by Zerubbabel on the ruins of the first temple, then there was the Temple built by Herod.
I see. So the "Third Temple" has already come and gone?

Many scholars would be surprised...

<snip of tedious repeat of the "rape justification error", based on inability to process the actual text>
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:41 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Most of us refer to these places as "graveyards" or "cemeteries." It is quite common to bury people in a common area with the previously deceased of one's family, to gather the dead family members in one place with "their people." The quotes you've selected from the result of your keyword search do not support the idea of life after death, but do point towards family centric burial practices, such as family crypts.
It is you that does not understand the meaning so you come up with some erroneous statement—the righteous dead are gathered up—Jesus explains what happens, people in those days only knew that they would be at peace in the presence of God.

(Job_22:26 Surely then you will find delight in the Almighty and will lift up your face to God.)

(Job_33:26 He prays to God and finds favour with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state.)

It is all to do with being with God—not so the wicked!

Quote:
Once again, you fail to understand that New Testament quotes do NOT support your assertion that the OT refers to life after death.
It gives us clarity
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:42 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I see. So the "Third Temple" has already come and gone?

Many scholars would be surprised...

<snip of tedious repeat of the "rape justification error", based on inability to process the actual text>
Well that is obvious!
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:49 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well that is obvious!
The "prophet" "Ezekiel" would also be surprised, no? (Check ch. 40-42)
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Old 7th November 2016, 09:49 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I told you that you are wrong...
But you haven't refuted the facts that show I'm right. Again, I asked for an argument that isn't simply your denial of the facts.

Quote:
the Mitsvot are...
I didn't ask for frantic, knee-jerk answers. You want to pretend the Mizvot thread doesn't exist because it was in that thread that you were shown not to be able to tell a good translation from a bad one. Since those are facts you can't overcome with your typical semi-exegetical handwaving, it's a sore point.

Quote:
...they must have a good knowledge of those languages.
This is where you went wrong before. You just assumed that because the translation exists and was published, it is necessarily a good one, its editors must be infallible, and it must be suitable for whatever purpose you are putting it to that day. And you are utterly unable to cope with facts that dispute any of those assumptions. This is why you are a poor Bible scholar. You have a child's understanding of what the Bible is, how we got it, and how we have to approach modern translations of ancient texts.

Quote:
No Sir you cannot fault me in any way.
I do fault you. And I have supplied the facts that demonstrate your faults. Now as I said, be a good little prophet and give me an argument that amounts to more that simply denying that those facts exist. You can't be God's chosen prophet if you can't prove your mettle.
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Old 7th November 2016, 10:02 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It is you that does not understand the meaning so you come up with some erroneous statement—the righteous dead are gathered up—Jesus explains what happens, people in those days only knew that they would be at peace in the presence of God.

(Job_22:26 Surely then you will find delight in the Almighty and will lift up your face to God.)

(Job_33:26 He prays to God and finds favour with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state.)

It is all to do with being with God—not so the wicked!
The righteous dead are gathered up - nothing in the OT to indicate anything other than a physical gathering or collection. The interpretation attributed to Jesus in the NT does not change the plain meaning of the words.

And the Job quotes also do not indicate that looking up at Yahweh and/or finding favour with him are meant to mean an afterlife. Job receives multiple blessings in the material world from Yahweh after Yahweh had rather callously destroyed everything previously, there is nothing in Job about blessings in an afterlife, it all deals with this material world.


Quote:
It gives us clarity
Frankly, no. By adding the belief in a life after death the NT dramatically changes the message of the OT.
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Old 7th November 2016, 10:03 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It
There is nowhere that it says that people will cease to exist----Gen_25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people.

Gen_35:29 Then he breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people, old and full of years. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Deu_32:50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.

So where was this gathering—it was shown by Jesus that Abraham was in a place of no torment. So the righteous who die go to a place of gathering.
Yes they do. A Jewish source explains:
We have to conclude, then, that the expression lie with your fathers became a formula for death, parallel to ingathered into your people, separated from the original idea of being buried in the family tomb.
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Old 7th November 2016, 10:08 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Did you not know that there were three temples constructed on the same site—there was the temple built by Solomon, then the Temple built by Zerubbabel on the ruins of the first temple, then there was the Temple built by Herod.
That's rich. Earlier in this thread you claimed that there had never been a second temple. Now you're trying to take a superior attitude about your newfound knowledge of the temples with one of the people who pointed out you were wrong!

While the majority opinion is that Herod's temple was not a third temple, but a renovation to the first, there are some who conclude Herod's major renovation constitutes a third temple. I find it fascinating that you're latching onto this minority opinion even though it deflates a good deal of the third temple prophesy End Timers such as yourself tend to harp on. If Herod's temple was the third temple, and not a renovation of the second, then Old Testament prophesy about the third temple cannot come to pass. Arguing that Herod's temple is a third temple is a back door attack on both Jewish and Christian End Times mythology.

By siding with the faction that considers Herod's renovation major enough to constitute a third temple, you are implicitly rejecting the bulk of the passages considered apocalyptic in the Old Testament, and upon which the book of Revelations depends!

It's absolutely delicious all the convoluted places your Biblical illiteracy takes you.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Wrong I do not agree that the man raped the girl—he seduced her, not rape. So as I stated the man must marry the girl. If a man rapes a virgin, then he must die.
Stop gaslighting.

I asked:

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Paul,

If Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not about rape, then please cite chapter and verse the Biblical punishment for raping a virgin who is not betrothed.
You responded:

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Deu 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

So this seems to be the answer—
The full punishment described in the Bible is:

Quote:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29New International Version (NIV)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Lying about what you conceded does not change the fact that you conceded it.
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Old 7th November 2016, 10:14 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It looks like you do not understand as it is so obvious—the righteous can live in the presence of God the Creator---the wicked are destined to live in a place outside the presence of the Creator.

There is nowhere that it says that people will cease to exist----Gen_25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people.

Gen_35:29 Then he breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people, old and full of years. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Deu_32:50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.

So where was this gathering—it was shown by Jesus that Abraham was in a place of no torment. So the righteous who die go to a place of gathering.

So Jesus gives us a clear description of what happens to the righteous and the wicked.
Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

So where are you going when you breath your last??
Like a dog to is vomit, you yet again return to your folly.

None of those Old Testament passages actually imply an afterlife. As others have pointed out, if you consulted actual Jewish scholars you'd know those were poetic descriptions of death and in some cases burial in a family tomb.

Your continued insistence upon using New Testament verses to assert a claim about what the Old Testament says is you just gargling the vomit of your own folly, not a viable argument. Artificially inflating your word count by cramming NT verses into a discussion about the contents of the OT is the sort or thing your teachers should have failed you on when you were in school. Did they do their jobs and give you poor marks, or were they incompetent oafs who hand waved a difficult child on to the next grade?
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Old 7th November 2016, 11:38 AM   #424
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As many others here have said here, you did not answer the question regarding there is no 'hell' in Tanakh.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is the adversary, to which the name devil, deceiver, Satan is given.
This is your big mistake. Your "translations"/"interpretations" are in error. You do not know that, because you can not read the Hebrew.

There is NO "devil" in Tanakh. The word "satan" is NOT a name. You *think* it is a name because your bad translations decide to sometimes translate the word as "adversary/opponent", and sometimes decide to (wrongly) translate it as a name. They (wrongly) do this to make it appear like there is a "devil". It is a false translation.

If you think the word "satan" is a name, do you also think YHVH is "Satan"?

Quote:
1 Chronicles 21.1 "Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel." (NIV)

II Samuel 24.1 "And again the anger of YHVH was against Israel and He moved David against them, saying, "Go count Israel and Judah.""
1 Chronicles 21.1 would be correctly translated as "an adversary/opponent" (YHVH's anger). Your NIV deceives you. You are not "infallible---perfect in understanding"

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
also a different place, outside the Presence of God.
Did you miss the part in Psalms 139:8? (which you will ignore).


Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So there are many names regarding the place where the wicked go when they die.
And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell.

There is no "devil".


Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I used the Complete Jewish Bible—so what is wrong with using the Name “Adonai”?
The CJB is NOT Jewish. It is a Christian "messianic" bible.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Tanakh has many reference to the abode of the wicked---
And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell.



Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so--- many of the translations are very well studied to enhance the actual meaning---nothing dishonest about that--
many of the translations are very well studied re-worked to enhance distort the actual meaning
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Old 7th November 2016, 11:45 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
The CJB is NOT Jewish. It is a Christian "messianic" bible.
He knows this. He's been told this. He chooses either to ignore it, or else he simply can't understand how a translation can be in error.
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Old 7th November 2016, 11:59 AM   #426
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
As many others here have said here, you did not answer the question regarding there is no 'hell' in Tanakh.

This is your big mistake. Your "translations"/"interpretations" are in error. You do not know that, because you can not read the Hebrew.

There is NO "devil" in Tanakh. The word "satan" is NOT a name. You *think* it is a name because your bad translations decide to sometimes translate the word as "adversary/opponent", and sometimes decide to (wrongly) translate it as a name. They (wrongly) do this to make it appear like there is a "devil". It is a false translation.

If you think the word "satan" is a name, do you also think YHVH is "Satan"?

1 Chronicles 21.1 would be correctly translated as "an adversary/opponent" (YHVH's anger). Your NIV deceives you. You are not "infallible---perfect in understanding"

Did you miss the part in Psalms 139:8? (which you will ignore).

And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell.

There is no "devil".

The CJB is NOT Jewish. It is a Christian "messianic" bible.

And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell.

many of the translations are very well studied re-worked to enhance distort the actual meaning
Preach!
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Old 7th November 2016, 12:04 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
He knows this. He's been told this. He chooses either to ignore it, or else he simply can't understand how a translation can be in error.
Using a non-Biblical example of challenges in translation (and one appropriate to the season) and in particular of translating poetic language, here is the poem in English:

In Flanders Fields (LCol John McRae)
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.

and again en francais:

Au champ d'honneur, les coquelicots
Sont parsemés de lot en lot
Auprès des croix; et dans l'espace
Les alouettes devenues lasses
Mêlent leurs chants au sifflement
Des obusiers.
Nous sommes morts
Nous qui songions la veille encor'
À nos parents, à nos amis,
C'est nous qui reposons ici
Au champ d'honneur.
À vous jeunes désabusés
À vous de porter l'oriflamme
Et de garder au fond de l'âme
Le goût de vivre en liberté.
Acceptez le défi, sinon
Les coquelicots se faneront
Au champ d'honneur.


Those able to read both will note that while the French adaptation is in the spirit of the original, it is not a word for word translation (for example, "In Flanders Fields", should be strictly translated as "Au champ des Flandres"). although I do not read Hebrew, I suspect that Hebrew to English translations involve much the same - the authors trying to keep to the spirit of the original (as they see that spirit), but not exact translations.
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Old 7th November 2016, 12:08 PM   #428
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
As many others here have said here, you did not answer the question regarding there is no 'hell' in Tanakh.
Nominated.

Well said and well stated.

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
He knows this. He's been told this. He chooses either to ignore it, or else he simply can't understand how a translation can be in error.
Keep mind, this is the same guy who, after I called him out on his somehow missing the construction of the second temple, later implied that I didn't know about the temples. He uses gaslighting heavily in this thread and I think his constant reference to a Messianic Bible deceptively marketed as "Jewish" is just another example. I think he's trying to imply his choice of translation is somehow closer to the original Hebrew than other translations.

He also seems to wait a few pages before going back to old tactics in the apparent hope that people will forget he's already been called out and corrected on his errors. It's why I keep paraphrasing Proverbs 26:11 when I catch him doing this.

"As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly."
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Old 7th November 2016, 12:12 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Using a non-Biblical example of challenges in translation (and one appropriate to the season) and in particular of translating poetic language, here is the poem in English:

In Flanders Fields (LCol John McRae)
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.

and again en francais:

Au champ d'honneur, les coquelicots
Sont parsemés de lot en lot
Auprès des croix; et dans l'espace
Les alouettes devenues lasses
Mêlent leurs chants au sifflement
Des obusiers.
Nous sommes morts
Nous qui songions la veille encor'
À nos parents, à nos amis,
C'est nous qui reposons ici
Au champ d'honneur.
À vous jeunes désabusés
À vous de porter l'oriflamme
Et de garder au fond de l'âme
Le goût de vivre en liberté.
Acceptez le défi, sinon
Les coquelicots se faneront
Au champ d'honneur.


Those able to read both will note that while the French adaptation is in the spirit of the original, it is not a word for word translation (for example, "In Flanders Fields", should be strictly translated as "Au champ des Flandres"). although I do not read Hebrew, I suspect that Hebrew to English translations involve much the same - the authors trying to keep to the spirit of the original (as they see that spirit), but not exact translations.
That's the problem with translations. It's generally more important to translate the spirit of the original unless one is dealing with technical or precision fields. Anyone who thinks that the King James version is an accurate translation is deluded or ignorant. It doesn't mean that the version is useless or un-poetic, but comme toutes les traditions, elle a ses prorpres problèmes.
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Old 7th November 2016, 12:12 PM   #430
Zivan
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
He knows this. He's been told this. He chooses either to ignore it, or else he simply can't understand how a translation can be in error.
Yes he does both. Ignores (a lot of things) and "can't understand how a translation can be in error."
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Old 7th November 2016, 12:56 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Preach!
Haha.
Amen brother

Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
.....although I do not read Hebrew, I suspect that Hebrew to English translations involve much the same - the authors trying to keep to the spirit of the original (as they see that spirit), but not exact translations.
Yes, that is very true.

For example, the Hebrew sentence, הוא בן עשרים (Hu ben esreem) in exact translation says, "He son twenty", which makes no sense in English.

In Hebrew it means, "He (is) 20 (years old)", and that is how it is translated to have the proper Hebrew meaning.

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Nominated.

Well said and well stated.



Keep mind, this is the same guy who, after I called him out on his somehow missing the construction of the second temple, later implied that I didn't know about the temples. He uses gaslighting heavily in this thread
Thank you.

Yes, he does use a lot of gaslighting (and many other tactics). Unfortunately for him, you and everyone on this thread are actually informed and knowledgeable, which Paul B is not.



Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
and I think his constant reference to a Messianic Bible deceptively marketed as "Jewish" is just another example. I think he's trying to imply his choice of translation is somehow closer to the original Hebrew than other translations.
This is what the missionaries do to us all the time. They show us fake Hebrew "translations" and tell us it is "Jewish". And they do not understand why we are all not running to get "saved".



Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
He also seems to wait a few pages before going back to old tactics in the apparent hope that people will forget he's already been called out and corrected on his errors. It's why I keep paraphrasing Proverbs 26:11 when I catch him doing this.

"As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly."
I think it is fun when you use that quote.
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Old 7th November 2016, 01:18 PM   #432
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
Yes, he does use a lot of gaslighting (and many other tactics). Unfortunately for him, you and everyone on this thread are actually informed and knowledgeable, which Paul B is not.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
This is what the missionaries do to us all the time. They show us fake Hebrew "translations" and tell us it is "Jewish". And they do not understand why we are all not running to get "saved".
I think I can explain that behavior. It has a few components. I was raised Christian (Missouri Synod Lutheran to be exact) so I have quite a bit of experience with the thought processes involved.

1. They are assuming Jews are as ignorant of their own faith as most Christians are of theirs. The average Christian gets very little theology from the Bible itself, and most tend to stop learning about their faith around the time they are confirmed, if they get that far. It honestly surprises many Christians that her are Jews other tan Rabbis who have a working knowledge of Hebrew. I've noticed this even among Christians who know Hebrew is actually spoken in Israel. They are surprised people can read a language that's an older form of the language they speak.

2. There's a marked tendency to assume the Bible supports what they already believe. As a result dodgy or downright inept translations or readings of Hebrew are accepted at face value. This means men like Joseph Prince can spread their nonsense far and wide, and anyone who points out how laughably incompetent their Hebrew is is dismissed as "jealous" or "serving Satan."

3. There's a powerful White Knight syndrome where missionaries, fed a steady diet of tales of success and triumph from past missionaries, expect to dive in and be saving souls left and right. Missionaries from a barnstorming or televangelist sect will already be accustomed to massive rallies where hundreds "come to Christ," ignoring, as Mark twain observed, that it's generally the same people "coming to Christ" at every rally. They expect the same to happen when they "minster to the chosen people, hungry for news of the Messiah!"

4. I've noticed it generally does not occur to them that Jews HAVE heard the story of Christ again, and again, and again, and again. Jack Chick tracts are full of people who somehow managed to grow up in the modern west yet never even heard of Jesus. They honestly think YOU haven't become Christian because nobody ever really told you Jesus was the Messiah.

Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
I think it is fun when you use that quote.
I quite enjoy using it. I try to use it sparingly, but PB seems to be working hard to give me situations where it's the perfect response. Divine or not, the Bible does have some powerful images and phrases that convey ideas quite effectively.
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Old 7th November 2016, 01:31 PM   #433
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The thread title is "Signs of the End Times" yet there's been precious little Apocalypse discussion recently. Since we've pumped the "Christian signs of the End Times" well pretty damn dry, I'm going to bring up a more exciting End of the World.

Ragnarok

Signs of Ragnarok

Oddly enough, it looks like the destruction of the environment may have forestalled Ragnarock.

Quote:
“A vast winter shall come, not a single winter but three rolled into one unyielding cold.”
I guess global warming was good for something after-all.
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Old 7th November 2016, 03:33 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Thank you.
You're welcome It is very true.

And thank you for the explanation about missionaries. Still, they are infuriating!


Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I think I can explain that behavior. It has a few components. I was raised Christian (Missouri Synod Lutheran to be exact) so I have quite a bit of experience with the thought processes involved.

1. They are assuming Jews are as ignorant of their own faith as most Christians are of theirs. The average Christian gets very little theology from the Bible itself, and most tend to stop learning about their faith around the time they are confirmed, if they get that far.
That is very obvious when they (missionaries) speak to us and assume we are ignorant (very insulting!!) in what the Tanakh says. Especially since most Israelis are secular.

Although we are not religious, we know what Tanakh says.


Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It honestly surprises many Christians that her are Jews other tan Rabbis who have a working knowledge of Hebrew.
The missionaries are always telling us we must stop listening to "what the rabbis say" and read the Tanakh for ourselves. That is a very confusing thing to say since we are not listening to "what the rabbis say". Then someone told me they say that because they listen to what their ministers/priests tell them and do not research for themselves (they think that is what we also do). We are taught to question everything and not just believe what we are "told". We do not just listen to what the "rabbis say", we argue with them!

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I've noticed this even among Christians who know Hebrew is actually spoken in Israel. They are surprised people can read a language that's an older form of the language they speak.
That seems very strange. Yes, biblical Hebrew is different, with a lot of words no longer used. But, for Modern Hebrew speakers understanding biblical Hebrew is no different than Modern English speakers understanding Shakespeare English.


Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
2. There's a marked tendency to assume the Bible supports what they already believe. As a result dodgy or downright inept translations or readings of Hebrew are accepted at face value.
I have fun when they quote their "proof texts". For example, they ask me if I know what Isaiah 7:14 says. I tell them "yes', and then ask them if they know what Isaiah 7:1 says (they do not know) or what v15 or 16 says. They do not know that either, or that v16 is the "sign", not v14!

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
This means men like Joseph Prince can spread their nonsense far and wide, and anyone who points out how laughably incompetent their Hebrew is is dismissed as "jealous" or "serving Satan."
Yes, their "devil" is so convenient to blame for things they do not know! And they also say the "Brit Chadasha" says they will "provoke the Jews to jealousy". But, they say we are so "blind" and have a "veil over our eyes". (They say this with a look of pity).

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
3. There's a powerful White Knight syndrome where missionaries, fed a steady diet of tales of success and triumph from past missionaries, expect to dive in and be saving souls left and right. Missionaries from a barnstorming or televangelist sect will already be accustomed to massive rallies where hundreds "come to Christ," ignoring, as Mark twain observed, that it's generally the same people "coming to Christ" at every rally.
Someone told me traveling evangelists were having these rallys in Russia for Jews. There were hundreds or thousands of people. When asked if they would "accept Jesus" people would raise their hand only because everyone else was (sheeple). So the traveling evangelists counted that as "thousands coming to Christ".

But, the missionaries who were "on the ground" and lived there (Russia), were complaining that there were so few "coming to Christ" because they never saw again any of the "thousands" that had raised their hands.


Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
They expect the same to happen when they "minster to the chosen people, hungry for news of the Messiah!"
Haha, we do not want to be the "chosen people". Will they please choose someone else!

We are not "hungry for news of Messiah". In fact we joke about it. In Tanakh, Elijah is said to come before Messiah. So we have a saying whenever someone is really late showing up. We say to them (with eye roll) "Boker tov Eliyahu" (Good morning Elijah). It means, "You have finally decided to show up?".

Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
4. I've noticed it generally does not occur to them that Jews HAVE heard the story of Christ again, and again, and again, and again. Jack Chick tracts are full of people who somehow managed to grow up in the modern west yet never even heard of Jesus.
^Exactly!
Not only in the West (Christian countries) but also in Muslim countries, since Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet.


Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
They honestly think YOU haven't become Christian because nobody ever really told you Jesus was the Messiah.
Then there is also the Inquisition, Crusaders, the Christian Spanish expulsion of Muslims and Jews, etc., etc...

So.....um........yes.

We got the memo.
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Old 8th November 2016, 12:36 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Like a dog to is vomit, you yet again return to your folly.
It also says do not give what is holy to dogs—so it is futile to give you anything holy.

Quote:
None of those Old Testament passages actually imply an afterlife. As others have pointed out, if you consulted actual Jewish scholars you'd know those were poetic descriptions of death and in some cases burial in a family tomb.
That may be the way you see it—but Jesus teaches that the dead do not cease to exist, explaining that Abraham is still in existence somewhere.

Quote:
Your continued insistence upon using New Testament verses to assert a claim about what the Old Testament says is you just [gargling the vomit of your own folly, not a viable argument. Artificially inflating your word count by cramming NT verses into a discussion about the contents of the OT is the sort or thing your teachers should have failed you on when you were in school. Did they do their jobs and give you poor marks, or were they incompetent oafs who hand waved a difficult child on to the next grade?
You are full of folly not understanding the simple truths that the dead do not cease to exist—they are gathered. So the righteous are gathered to a place prepared by God, and the wicked are gathered to a place prepared by God.
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Old 8th November 2016, 01:59 AM   #436
Paul Bethke
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
As many others here have said here, you did not answer the question regarding there is no 'hell' in Tanakh.

This is your big mistake. Your "translations"/"interpretations" are in error. You do not know that, because you can not read the Hebrew.
So Abraham and Moses for instance were gathered—so where were they gathered too?
Some translations may translate some words of the ancient Hebrew wrong—but overall the translations give a very clear description of the words of God penned by the faithful.
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There is NO "devil" in Tanakh. The word "satan" is NOT a name. You *think* it is a name because your bad translations decide to sometimes translate the word as "adversary/opponent", and sometimes decide to (wrongly) translate it as a name. They (wrongly) do this to make it appear like there is a "devil". It is a false translation.
So who tempted Eve to eat of the fruit that God forbade?

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If you think the word "satan" is a name, do you also think YHVH is "Satan"?
No idea as to what you are inferring!

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1 Chronicles 21.1 would be correctly translated as "an adversary/opponent" (YHVH's anger). Your NIV deceives you. You are not "infallible---perfect in understanding"
It does not change the fact that David acted outside the prescribed will of God.
It did not minimise the guilt of Eve—people must take responsibility for their actions.
What about Job/---Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."
So who is Satan?

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Did you miss the part in Psalms 139:8? (which you will ignore).
Psa 139:7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
Psa 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
I do not ignore any Scripture—this is very simple, the Presence of God is everywhere as everywhere is designed by God—there is not a place that God has no knowledge of!

So here we see that David could communicate with the Creator---Psa 139:24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Yes it is a very informative Psalm—one from which we can take note of.



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And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell.
There is no "devil".
There certainly is a place that the wicked go, and there is a place that the righteous go.
Abraham got it right (Gen 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" )

So God does not treat the righteous and the wicked the same—one place for the wicked and one place for the righteous.

You say there is no devil, so who is it that tempted Eve, and who was it that tortured Job?

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The CJB is NOT Jewish. It is a Christian "messianic" bible.
And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell.
many of the translations are very well studied re-worked to enhance distort the actual meaning
Even a bad translation can have good points—overall one learns to distinguish these errors and arrive at a viable understanding.

http://oneinmessiah.net/TheCompleteJewishBible.htm

As I believe Jesus to be the Messiah, I can rely on what he stated as the complete truth—but when there is a discrepancy—we can always go back to the beginning as Jesus directed.
Mat 19:4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'
Mat 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?

Gen 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

So I do this continually—I start at the beginning as is the tradition of the Jews to start from the beginning as is the case in the New Year—5777.

No taking everything that everyone has stated—I still have an infallible knowledge of the will of the Creator who created everything in 6 days as stated in the Torah, 5777 years ago..

But thank you, you have given me much to think about with regards to the Jewish people.
The destruction of three Temples and wanting to build a forth, when the reason for the destruction of these Temples still remains.

The two sisters that Ezekiel speaks of metaphorically seems to be constant in the Jewish people.

Eze_23:11 "Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet in her lust and prostitution she was more depraved than her sister.

And this--.

Eze_22:11 In you one man commits a detestable offense with his neighbour’s wife, another shamefully defiles his daughter-in-law, and another violates his sister, his own father's daughter.

So will you be among the third left? (Zec 13:8 In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. )


You see we are not wanting you to become Christians—we are calling you to repent as the same law applies to Gentiles and Jews.

Rom_2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
Rom_2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Rom_3:2 Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very Words of God.

So what is of importance now is for all people to repent and adhere to the basic laws of the Creator as stipulated in the Torah—beginning with the Decalogue the Ten Commands, the Testimony.

The DO nots.
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Old 8th November 2016, 06:05 AM   #437
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
That may be the way you see it—but Jesus teaches that the dead do not cease to exist, explaining that Abraham is still in existence somewhere.
We were discussing whether the existence of an afterlife is found in the Old Testament. Statements that are attributed to Jesus in the New Testament do not provide any evidence of that.

If you read your Bible you will find few, if any, references to an afterlife in Mark (the earliest Gospel) and the one least likely to have been influenced by Greek philosophy. Other later Gospels and the Pauline doctrine do refer to the immortality of the soul showing that other religions or philosophical traditions have influenced their composition. Statements attributed to Jesus are not quotes taken down in shorthand by scribes following him around, they are stories fabricated to support a particular philosophical or theological point many years after the events they are alleged to be recording.

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You are full of folly not understanding the simple truths that the dead do not cease to exist—they are gathered. So the righteous are gathered to a place prepared by God, and the wicked are gathered to a place prepared by God.
Cemetery, graveyard, family tomb. The references in the OT are fairly clear that they are talking about a physical gathering of the dead - so unless there is somewhere on this planet where the dead walk....

There are a number of reasons why the authors of the Jesus fanfic may have decided that Jewish doctrine needed changing. Perhaps they felt that life under Roman occupation was so bleak that the traditional view of "this is it, be the best you can be" was inadequate to the spiritual needs of the people, and decided they needed the comfort of "it might be hard now, but obey my rules and it's all sunshine and roses in the afterlife - and you get to watch the unrighteous suffer for all eternity as a bonus." Maybe they were influenced by Platonic philosophy and the doctrine of the immortal soul, Maybe they decided to plagiarize more than just the outline of the Mithraic cult for their story. The point is that the addition of an afterlife is a radical change to what is taught in the Jewish religion and for a person who alleges that he comes not to change a dot of the law to add this in a mixed message at best.
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Old 8th November 2016, 06:27 AM   #438
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
You say there is no devil, so who is it that tempted Eve, and who was it that tortured Job?
I thought you read your Bible?

Eve was tempted by a talking snake (Genesis 3). A snake made by Yahweh, and cursed by him as one of the beasts of the field. Christian tradition that equates the serpent with Satan is not founded in the Biblical text.

Job was tormented by Satan at Yahweh's command to prove that Job's Stockholm Syndrome was strong.
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Old 8th November 2016, 06:49 AM   #439
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
I thought you read your Bible?

Eve was tempted by a talking snake (Genesis 3). A snake made by Yahweh, and cursed by him as one of the beasts of the field. Christian tradition that equates the serpent with Satan is not founded in the Biblical text.

Job was tormented by Satan at Yahweh's command to prove that Job's Stockholm Syndrome was strong.
Humans, who resemble Gods in other respects, die after a few decades; and that is the end of them. They simply return to the dust from which the Gods originally created them. But snakes seem (to the uninformed observer) to have learned the trick of restoring themselves and becoming young again (by sloughing their skins.).

That can't be the way things are supposed to be! The rejuvenation trick must have been intended by the gods, to be given to people, not snakes, horrible creatures that they are. So snakes must somehow have stolen this gift from people.

Last edited by Craig B; 8th November 2016 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 8th November 2016, 07:02 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I told you that you are wrong, I use the NIV, and compare other translations when necessary—the Mitsvot are an integral part of the Scriptures, because they are taken from the Scriptures—so do all apply to everyone or do some apply to everyone?

Before one can be examined by the Mitsvot –marriage must be ascertained, either to be sanctified or adulterous.


Which one of the translations that I use is incompetent---when someone translates from the Hebrew or Greek, they must have a good knowledge of those languages.

Even the Good News Bible has so good translations—it is only where there is a major discrepancy that I look to multiple translations—No Sir you cannot fault me in any way.
How do you know when comparison is necessary? And how, without knowing the original languages, do you resolve the "major discrepancy" (or even know whether it's a major one)? I think that what's being suggested is that your basis for both decisions is only how well the translation fits your pre-determined theology- you need the "correct" translation because you use your beliefs to define the facts rather than using the facts to define your beliefs.
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Last edited by turingtest; 8th November 2016 at 07:06 AM. Reason: reword
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