|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
7th November 2016, 08:48 AM | #401 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
|
So, which translation was it that allowed you to completely miss the construction of the second temple, and then confuse the second temple's renovation with the building of a third temple?
By the way, thank you for finally conceding the fact that the Deuteronomy verse we were dissing was in fact about allowing a rapist to avoid execution by buying his victim under certain circumstances. Your choice to quote the NIV translation was a very clear concession on that point. |
7th November 2016, 08:51 AM | #402 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
It looks like you do not understand as it is so obvious—the righteous can live in the presence of God the Creator---the wicked are destined to live in a place outside the presence of the Creator.
There is nowhere that it says that people will cease to exist----Gen_25:8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people. Gen_35:29 Then he breathed his last and died and was gathered to his people, old and full of years. And his sons Esau and Jacob buried him. Deu_32:50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people. So where was this gathering—it was shown by Jesus that Abraham was in a place of no torment. So the righteous who die go to a place of gathering. So Jesus gives us a clear description of what happens to the righteous and the wicked. Luke 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. Luke 16:23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So where are you going when you breath your last?? |
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
7th November 2016, 09:06 AM | #403 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
|
The same Genesis with the talking snakes? It is to laugh.
The same Deuteronomy you reject when convenient? It is to laugh. The same jebus who hates fig trees? No. All you have is a claim of what he said by someone who wasn't even there. More claims of what jebus might have said by people who weren't even there. Superstitious nonsense. There is no evidence that anyone goes anywhere. Even if they did, there is no evidence that it might be your particular demented heaven or hell. Could be Valhalla for all you know. |
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
|
7th November 2016, 09:10 AM | #404 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
Did you not know that there were three temples constructed on the same site—there was the temple built by Solomon, then the Temple built by Zerubbabel on the ruins of the first temple, then there was the Temple built by Herod.
Quote:
Quote:
This is why there are so many single mothers as they are called—the man runs off. Not only that he seduces another girl and so it goes on—so the law promulgated in Israel was to prevent this. Besides if the girl does not stay with the first man and marries another then they will be committing adultery----I am sure by this time you see the reasoning?? |
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
7th November 2016, 09:12 AM | #405 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
No, you plug keywords into your computer Bible search software and other such electronic tools and use whichever translation best seems to support your preconceived belief, regardless of whether it's understood by scholars to be a good translation or not. You've been caught at least twice in the past year touting as "good" translations which are known to be bad and which have led you into specific failures, not the least of which is that glaring reason you want to pretend the Mizvot thread doesn't exist.
I never disputed that you use multiple translations. But my argument still stands that you don't discriminate between good and bad translations, and you can't because you don't know the original languages. The argument still stands that you don't get the correct understanding because you fall into the pitfalls dug by incompetent translation. And I have presented the facts to back my accusation.
Quote:
|
7th November 2016, 09:13 AM | #406 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
|
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
7th November 2016, 09:15 AM | #407 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
How can you be certain that the translations are accurate if you can't read the original? Halleyscomet has shown that the same verse's meaning can change dramatically depending on which version you choose.
Your "flexible" approach to the meaning of words demonstrates to most of us that when the actual meaning of the words is at odds with what a zealot wants those words to mean, those words will be read in whatever way the zealot wishes them to say. Your earlier interpretation of virgin as being able to encompass sexually active men is a prime example. |
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
7th November 2016, 09:20 AM | #408 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
Mr. Bethke:
You do not understand why your version du jour chooses to render a given word in a given way; you are too busy version-shopping and cherry-picking in hopes of creating a semblance of support for your own prejudices to be aware of the editorial decisions being made. You are making the same kind of error Sir Isaac Newton made when he insisted that the Rainbow has seven (not six) fundamental divisions. You really ought to let what is determine what you believe, and not the other way 'round... |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
7th November 2016, 09:22 AM | #409 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
|
7th November 2016, 09:22 AM | #410 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
7th November 2016, 09:25 AM | #411 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
Most of us refer to these places as "graveyards" or "cemeteries." It is quite common to bury people in a common area with the previously deceased of one's family, to gather the dead family members in one place with "their people." The quotes you've selected from the result of your keyword search do not support the idea of life after death, but do point towards family centric burial practices, such as family crypts.
Quote:
|
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
7th November 2016, 09:30 AM | #412 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
I told you that you are wrong, I use the NIV, and compare other translations when necessary—the Mitsvot are an integral part of the Scriptures, because they are taken from the Scriptures—so do all apply to everyone or do some apply to everyone?
Before one can be examined by the Mitsvot –marriage must be ascertained, either to be sanctified or adulterous.
Quote:
Even the Good News Bible has so good translations—it is only where there is a major discrepancy that I look to multiple translations—No Sir you cannot fault me in any way. |
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
7th November 2016, 09:34 AM | #413 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
What you are missing is that the different "names" by which 'god' is referred to, or addressed, have specific meanings, and are used (properly) in specific contexts--and are represented by different, specific, Hebrew words interpreted in particular ways.
You do not understand why a particular term is used to interpret a precise Hebrew word; your "infallible, perfect understanding" once again founders upon your dependence upon others' interpretations of translations, with no understanding of your own. Not an OT reference, at all (nor is it an eyewitness report of anything any Jesus is to be supposed to have said...). Do stay on topic. It is, frankly, precious that you still threaten me for "blasphemy" and for "failure to repent" by the terms of your own, personal version of the superstition to which you are in thrall. DO try to keep up. I repeat: not an eyewitness record of anything any Jesus is to be supposed to have said... ...you do realize your Jesus was to be supposed to have said that about...blind guides, and false prophets, right? That's a mirror, Mr. Bethke. |
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
7th November 2016, 09:36 AM | #414 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
7th November 2016, 09:41 AM | #415 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
7th November 2016, 09:41 AM | #416 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
It is you that does not understand the meaning so you come up with some erroneous statement—the righteous dead are gathered up—Jesus explains what happens, people in those days only knew that they would be at peace in the presence of God.
(Job_22:26 Surely then you will find delight in the Almighty and will lift up your face to God.) (Job_33:26 He prays to God and finds favour with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state.) It is all to do with being with God—not so the wicked!
Quote:
|
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
7th November 2016, 09:42 AM | #417 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
|
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
7th November 2016, 09:49 AM | #418 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
7th November 2016, 09:49 AM | #419 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
But you haven't refuted the facts that show I'm right. Again, I asked for an argument that isn't simply your denial of the facts.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
7th November 2016, 10:02 AM | #420 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
The righteous dead are gathered up - nothing in the OT to indicate anything other than a physical gathering or collection. The interpretation attributed to Jesus in the NT does not change the plain meaning of the words.
And the Job quotes also do not indicate that looking up at Yahweh and/or finding favour with him are meant to mean an afterlife. Job receives multiple blessings in the material world from Yahweh after Yahweh had rather callously destroyed everything previously, there is nothing in Job about blessings in an afterlife, it all deals with this material world.
Quote:
|
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
7th November 2016, 10:03 AM | #421 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
Yes they do. A Jewish source explains:
We have to conclude, then, that the expression lie with your fathers became a formula for death, parallel to ingathered into your people, separated from the original idea of being buried in the family tomb. |
7th November 2016, 10:08 AM | #422 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
|
That's rich. Earlier in this thread you claimed that there had never been a second temple. Now you're trying to take a superior attitude about your newfound knowledge of the temples with one of the people who pointed out you were wrong!
While the majority opinion is that Herod's temple was not a third temple, but a renovation to the first, there are some who conclude Herod's major renovation constitutes a third temple. I find it fascinating that you're latching onto this minority opinion even though it deflates a good deal of the third temple prophesy End Timers such as yourself tend to harp on. If Herod's temple was the third temple, and not a renovation of the second, then Old Testament prophesy about the third temple cannot come to pass. Arguing that Herod's temple is a third temple is a back door attack on both Jewish and Christian End Times mythology. By siding with the faction that considers Herod's renovation major enough to constitute a third temple, you are implicitly rejecting the bulk of the passages considered apocalyptic in the Old Testament, and upon which the book of Revelations depends! It's absolutely delicious all the convoluted places your Biblical illiteracy takes you. Stop gaslighting. I asked: You responded: The full punishment described in the Bible is:
Quote:
|
7th November 2016, 10:14 AM | #423 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
|
Like a dog to is vomit, you yet again return to your folly.
None of those Old Testament passages actually imply an afterlife. As others have pointed out, if you consulted actual Jewish scholars you'd know those were poetic descriptions of death and in some cases burial in a family tomb. Your continued insistence upon using New Testament verses to assert a claim about what the Old Testament says is you just gargling the vomit of your own folly, not a viable argument. Artificially inflating your word count by cramming NT verses into a discussion about the contents of the OT is the sort or thing your teachers should have failed you on when you were in school. Did they do their jobs and give you poor marks, or were they incompetent oafs who hand waved a difficult child on to the next grade? |
7th November 2016, 11:38 AM | #424 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 816
|
As many others here have said here, you did not answer the question regarding there is no 'hell' in Tanakh.
This is your big mistake. Your "translations"/"interpretations" are in error. You do not know that, because you can not read the Hebrew. There is NO "devil" in Tanakh. The word "satan" is NOT a name. You *think* it is a name because your bad translations decide to sometimes translate the word as "adversary/opponent", and sometimes decide to (wrongly) translate it as a name. They (wrongly) do this to make it appear like there is a "devil". It is a false translation. If you think the word "satan" is a name, do you also think YHVH is "Satan"?
Quote:
Did you miss the part in Psalms 139:8? (which you will ignore). And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell. There is no "devil". The CJB is NOT Jewish. It is a Christian "messianic" bible. And it is never called 'hell' in Tanakh. There is no hell. many of the translations are very well |
7th November 2016, 11:45 AM | #425 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
|
|
7th November 2016, 11:59 AM | #426 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
|
|
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
|
7th November 2016, 12:04 PM | #427 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
Using a non-Biblical example of challenges in translation (and one appropriate to the season) and in particular of translating poetic language, here is the poem in English:
In Flanders Fields (LCol John McRae) In Flanders fields the poppies blow Between the crosses, row on row, That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly Scarce heard amid the guns below. We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved, and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders Fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders Fields. and again en francais: Au champ d'honneur, les coquelicots Sont parsemés de lot en lot Auprès des croix; et dans l'espace Les alouettes devenues lasses Mêlent leurs chants au sifflement Des obusiers. Nous sommes morts Nous qui songions la veille encor' À nos parents, à nos amis, C'est nous qui reposons ici Au champ d'honneur. À vous jeunes désabusés À vous de porter l'oriflamme Et de garder au fond de l'âme Le goût de vivre en liberté. Acceptez le défi, sinon Les coquelicots se faneront Au champ d'honneur. Those able to read both will note that while the French adaptation is in the spirit of the original, it is not a word for word translation (for example, "In Flanders Fields", should be strictly translated as "Au champ des Flandres"). although I do not read Hebrew, I suspect that Hebrew to English translations involve much the same - the authors trying to keep to the spirit of the original (as they see that spirit), but not exact translations. |
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
7th November 2016, 12:08 PM | #428 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
|
Nominated.
Well said and well stated. Keep mind, this is the same guy who, after I called him out on his somehow missing the construction of the second temple, later implied that I didn't know about the temples. He uses gaslighting heavily in this thread and I think his constant reference to a Messianic Bible deceptively marketed as "Jewish" is just another example. I think he's trying to imply his choice of translation is somehow closer to the original Hebrew than other translations. He also seems to wait a few pages before going back to old tactics in the apparent hope that people will forget he's already been called out and corrected on his errors. It's why I keep paraphrasing Proverbs 26:11 when I catch him doing this. "As a dog returns to its vomit, so fools repeat their folly." |
7th November 2016, 12:12 PM | #429 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
|
That's the problem with translations. It's generally more important to translate the spirit of the original unless one is dealing with technical or precision fields. Anyone who thinks that the King James version is an accurate translation is deluded or ignorant. It doesn't mean that the version is useless or un-poetic, but comme toutes les traditions, elle a ses prorpres problèmes.
|
7th November 2016, 12:12 PM | #430 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 816
|
|
7th November 2016, 12:56 PM | #431 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 816
|
Haha.
Amen brother Yes, that is very true. For example, the Hebrew sentence, הוא בן עשרים (Hu ben esreem) in exact translation says, "He son twenty", which makes no sense in English. In Hebrew it means, "He (is) 20 (years old)", and that is how it is translated to have the proper Hebrew meaning. Thank you. Yes, he does use a lot of gaslighting (and many other tactics). Unfortunately for him, you and everyone on this thread are actually informed and knowledgeable, which Paul B is not. This is what the missionaries do to us all the time. They show us fake Hebrew "translations" and tell us it is "Jewish". And they do not understand why we are all not running to get "saved". I think it is fun when you use that quote. |
7th November 2016, 01:18 PM | #432 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
|
Thank you.
I think I can explain that behavior. It has a few components. I was raised Christian (Missouri Synod Lutheran to be exact) so I have quite a bit of experience with the thought processes involved. 1. They are assuming Jews are as ignorant of their own faith as most Christians are of theirs. The average Christian gets very little theology from the Bible itself, and most tend to stop learning about their faith around the time they are confirmed, if they get that far. It honestly surprises many Christians that her are Jews other tan Rabbis who have a working knowledge of Hebrew. I've noticed this even among Christians who know Hebrew is actually spoken in Israel. They are surprised people can read a language that's an older form of the language they speak. 2. There's a marked tendency to assume the Bible supports what they already believe. As a result dodgy or downright inept translations or readings of Hebrew are accepted at face value. This means men like Joseph Prince can spread their nonsense far and wide, and anyone who points out how laughably incompetent their Hebrew is is dismissed as "jealous" or "serving Satan." 3. There's a powerful White Knight syndrome where missionaries, fed a steady diet of tales of success and triumph from past missionaries, expect to dive in and be saving souls left and right. Missionaries from a barnstorming or televangelist sect will already be accustomed to massive rallies where hundreds "come to Christ," ignoring, as Mark twain observed, that it's generally the same people "coming to Christ" at every rally. They expect the same to happen when they "minster to the chosen people, hungry for news of the Messiah!" 4. I've noticed it generally does not occur to them that Jews HAVE heard the story of Christ again, and again, and again, and again. Jack Chick tracts are full of people who somehow managed to grow up in the modern west yet never even heard of Jesus. They honestly think YOU haven't become Christian because nobody ever really told you Jesus was the Messiah. I quite enjoy using it. I try to use it sparingly, but PB seems to be working hard to give me situations where it's the perfect response. Divine or not, the Bible does have some powerful images and phrases that convey ideas quite effectively. |
7th November 2016, 01:31 PM | #433 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
|
The thread title is "Signs of the End Times" yet there's been precious little Apocalypse discussion recently. Since we've pumped the "Christian signs of the End Times" well pretty damn dry, I'm going to bring up a more exciting End of the World.
Ragnarok Signs of Ragnarok Oddly enough, it looks like the destruction of the environment may have forestalled Ragnarock.
Quote:
|
7th November 2016, 03:33 PM | #434 |
Muse
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 816
|
You're welcome It is very true.
And thank you for the explanation about missionaries. Still, they are infuriating! That is very obvious when they (missionaries) speak to us and assume we are ignorant (very insulting!!) in what the Tanakh says. Especially since most Israelis are secular. Although we are not religious, we know what Tanakh says. The missionaries are always telling us we must stop listening to "what the rabbis say" and read the Tanakh for ourselves. That is a very confusing thing to say since we are not listening to "what the rabbis say". Then someone told me they say that because they listen to what their ministers/priests tell them and do not research for themselves (they think that is what we also do). We are taught to question everything and not just believe what we are "told". We do not just listen to what the "rabbis say", we argue with them! That seems very strange. Yes, biblical Hebrew is different, with a lot of words no longer used. But, for Modern Hebrew speakers understanding biblical Hebrew is no different than Modern English speakers understanding Shakespeare English. I have fun when they quote their "proof texts". For example, they ask me if I know what Isaiah 7:14 says. I tell them "yes', and then ask them if they know what Isaiah 7:1 says (they do not know) or what v15 or 16 says. They do not know that either, or that v16 is the "sign", not v14! Yes, their "devil" is so convenient to blame for things they do not know! And they also say the "Brit Chadasha" says they will "provoke the Jews to jealousy". But, they say we are so "blind" and have a "veil over our eyes". (They say this with a look of pity). Someone told me traveling evangelists were having these rallys in Russia for Jews. There were hundreds or thousands of people. When asked if they would "accept Jesus" people would raise their hand only because everyone else was (sheeple). So the traveling evangelists counted that as "thousands coming to Christ". But, the missionaries who were "on the ground" and lived there (Russia), were complaining that there were so few "coming to Christ" because they never saw again any of the "thousands" that had raised their hands. Haha, we do not want to be the "chosen people". Will they please choose someone else! We are not "hungry for news of Messiah". In fact we joke about it. In Tanakh, Elijah is said to come before Messiah. So we have a saying whenever someone is really late showing up. We say to them (with eye roll) "Boker tov Eliyahu" (Good morning Elijah). It means, "You have finally decided to show up?". ^Exactly! Not only in the West (Christian countries) but also in Muslim countries, since Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet. Then there is also the Inquisition, Crusaders, the Christian Spanish expulsion of Muslims and Jews, etc., etc... So.....um........yes. We got the memo. |
8th November 2016, 12:36 AM | #435 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
It also says do not give what is holy to dogs—so it is futile to give you anything holy.
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
8th November 2016, 01:59 AM | #436 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
|
So Abraham and Moses for instance were gathered—so where were they gathered too?
Some translations may translate some words of the ancient Hebrew wrong—but overall the translations give a very clear description of the words of God penned by the faithful.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It did not minimise the guilt of Eve—people must take responsibility for their actions. What about Job/---Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." So who is Satan?
Quote:
Psa 139:8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. I do not ignore any Scripture—this is very simple, the Presence of God is everywhere as everywhere is designed by God—there is not a place that God has no knowledge of! So here we see that David could communicate with the Creator---Psa 139:24 See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting. Yes it is a very informative Psalm—one from which we can take note of.
Quote:
Abraham got it right (Gen 18:25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" ) So God does not treat the righteous and the wicked the same—one place for the wicked and one place for the righteous. You say there is no devil, so who is it that tempted Eve, and who was it that tortured Job?
Quote:
http://oneinmessiah.net/TheCompleteJewishBible.htm As I believe Jesus to be the Messiah, I can rely on what he stated as the complete truth—but when there is a discrepancy—we can always go back to the beginning as Jesus directed. Mat 19:4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' Mat 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? Gen 2:24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. So I do this continually—I start at the beginning as is the tradition of the Jews to start from the beginning as is the case in the New Year—5777. No taking everything that everyone has stated—I still have an infallible knowledge of the will of the Creator who created everything in 6 days as stated in the Torah, 5777 years ago.. But thank you, you have given me much to think about with regards to the Jewish people. The destruction of three Temples and wanting to build a forth, when the reason for the destruction of these Temples still remains. The two sisters that Ezekiel speaks of metaphorically seems to be constant in the Jewish people. Eze_23:11 "Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet in her lust and prostitution she was more depraved than her sister. And this--. Eze_22:11 In you one man commits a detestable offense with his neighbour’s wife, another shamefully defiles his daughter-in-law, and another violates his sister, his own father's daughter. So will you be among the third left? (Zec 13:8 In the whole land," declares the LORD, "two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. ) You see we are not wanting you to become Christians—we are calling you to repent as the same law applies to Gentiles and Jews. Rom_2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; Rom_2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Rom_3:2 Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very Words of God. So what is of importance now is for all people to repent and adhere to the basic laws of the Creator as stipulated in the Torah—beginning with the Decalogue the Ten Commands, the Testimony. The DO nots. |
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
|
8th November 2016, 06:05 AM | #437 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
We were discussing whether the existence of an afterlife is found in the Old Testament. Statements that are attributed to Jesus in the New Testament do not provide any evidence of that.
If you read your Bible you will find few, if any, references to an afterlife in Mark (the earliest Gospel) and the one least likely to have been influenced by Greek philosophy. Other later Gospels and the Pauline doctrine do refer to the immortality of the soul showing that other religions or philosophical traditions have influenced their composition. Statements attributed to Jesus are not quotes taken down in shorthand by scribes following him around, they are stories fabricated to support a particular philosophical or theological point many years after the events they are alleged to be recording.
Quote:
There are a number of reasons why the authors of the Jesus fanfic may have decided that Jewish doctrine needed changing. Perhaps they felt that life under Roman occupation was so bleak that the traditional view of "this is it, be the best you can be" was inadequate to the spiritual needs of the people, and decided they needed the comfort of "it might be hard now, but obey my rules and it's all sunshine and roses in the afterlife - and you get to watch the unrighteous suffer for all eternity as a bonus." Maybe they were influenced by Platonic philosophy and the doctrine of the immortal soul, Maybe they decided to plagiarize more than just the outline of the Mithraic cult for their story. The point is that the addition of an afterlife is a radical change to what is taught in the Jewish religion and for a person who alleges that he comes not to change a dot of the law to add this in a mixed message at best. |
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
8th November 2016, 06:27 AM | #438 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
|
I thought you read your Bible?
Eve was tempted by a talking snake (Genesis 3). A snake made by Yahweh, and cursed by him as one of the beasts of the field. Christian tradition that equates the serpent with Satan is not founded in the Biblical text. Job was tormented by Satan at Yahweh's command to prove that Job's Stockholm Syndrome was strong. |
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks? |
|
8th November 2016, 06:49 AM | #439 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,841
|
Humans, who resemble Gods in other respects, die after a few decades; and that is the end of them. They simply return to the dust from which the Gods originally created them. But snakes seem (to the uninformed observer) to have learned the trick of restoring themselves and becoming young again (by sloughing their skins.).
That can't be the way things are supposed to be! The rejuvenation trick must have been intended by the gods, to be given to people, not snakes, horrible creatures that they are. So snakes must somehow have stolen this gift from people. |
8th November 2016, 07:02 AM | #440 |
Mistral, mistral wind...
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Embedded and embattled, reporting from Mississippi
Posts: 5,203
|
How do you know when comparison is necessary? And how, without knowing the original languages, do you resolve the "major discrepancy" (or even know whether it's a major one)? I think that what's being suggested is that your basis for both decisions is only how well the translation fits your pre-determined theology- you need the "correct" translation because you use your beliefs to define the facts rather than using the facts to define your beliefs.
|
__________________
I'm tired of the bombs, tired of the bullets, tired of the crazies on TV; I'm the aviator, a dream's a dream whatever it seems Deep Purple- "The Aviator" Life was a short shelf that came with bookends- Stephen King |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|