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8th November 2016, 07:42 AM | #441 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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8th November 2016, 07:51 AM | #442 |
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8th November 2016, 07:53 AM | #443 |
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8th November 2016, 08:00 AM | #444 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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8th November 2016, 08:03 AM | #445 |
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The idea that the "End Times" described in the Bible are past events is not that terribly unique. While not the dominant theme in modern western Christian thought, it has a basis. The general idea is that the bulk of the End Times prophesy in the Old Testament referred to the coming of Christ and / or the Roman Empire and The Book of Revelations was about Nero persecuting Christians. This interpretation however leaves Christians without an "End of the World" story.
I cannot speak to Jewish thoughts on this topic as I lack the knowledge of modern Jewish theology to give an informed answer. I find it ironic that Paul has, yet again, in is zeal to be "right" and prove others "wrong," profoundly undermined his own claims. |
8th November 2016, 08:08 AM | #446 |
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8th November 2016, 08:19 AM | #447 |
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I think Lord of the Rings fans have it easiest of the bunch. Most the contradictions are in the The Silmarillion, which is explicitly a collection of legends, and therefore flexible on the details.
I've noticed the theologians and apologists with the best defense are the ones who concede the the Bible contains a lot of legend and mythology. Being able to say the Exodus was obvious allegory frees one from the tyranny of archaeology to explore what meaning a deity would want us to take from the story. For example, the Passover Haggadah my wife's family uses focuses on the message that all people have been enslaved and that we should not take delight in the suffering of our enemies. It's a cultural bond to be sure, but the story also becomes about humanity sharing a bond as well. As a result the Passover has meaning regardless of it is a literal account of events or a story God wants us to ear. Conceding the role of mythology is a religiously liberating step that allows faith to take a central role instead of bickering about ways to make the geologic record somehow jive with a global flood a few hundred years before the pyramids started going up and a creation story that takes place while the Sumerian civilization was in full swing. |
8th November 2016, 08:24 AM | #448 |
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8th November 2016, 11:03 AM | #449 |
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8th November 2016, 11:23 AM | #450 |
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Their graves. As others have already told you "gathered to his people" is a metaphor for death/grave.
"Some translations Not "may" they DO translate wrong. You have proven your translations do NOT "give a very clear description".... Your wrong translations make you think there is a "devil" named "Satan", which is false. A talking snake. That is all. A snake. Did you read what I wrote about your wrong translation? I explained in post #424 Your translations deceive you. According to II Samuel 24:1, and I Chron 21:1 (properly translated, not your false translation in NIV), it WAS YHVH that caused David to take a census. So why do you say, "David acted outside the prescribed will of God."? "The". You left out the definite article, "the" (because you do not know it is there!). It says "the adversary", not the name of a "devil" called "Satan". There is no "Satan". The word is properly translated as "adversary/opponent". The word that your NIV translated as "depths" is the hebrew word "she'ol" which YOU say means "hell" (which it does not). So are you saying your God is in hell? As others have already told you (but you refuse to learn) this is talking about the city of Sodom, which was destroyed. NO mention of a "hell". A snake tempted Eve. An adversary against Job tortured him. The adversary had to have permission from YHVH to do it. So the adversary was not a "rebellious fallen angel/devil". Then why do you not know (with your "infallible knowledge") that there is no "Satan"/"devil"?. The word is properly translated as "adversary/opponent". Why does you "wonderful" NIV get to "decide" when the Hebrew word for "adversary/opponent" is translated correctly, or translated wrongly as the "name" of a "devil" called "Satan"?
Quote:
IF your NIV was consistent in translating the Hebrew word "satan", (to match whenever the NIV decides to (wrongly) "translate" it as the name ("Satan") of a "devil") those verses would read; Numbers 22:22 "and the angel of the LORD stood in the road, Satan to him." 1 Kings 11:14 "Satan, Hadad the Edomite, from the royal line of Edom." 1 Kings 11:23 "Satan, Rezon son of Eliada, who had fled from his master, Hadadezer king of Zobah." 1 Samuel 29:4 (The Philistines say) "He (David) must not go with us into battle, or he (David) will be Satan during the fighting." Why does your NIV deceive you with false translations? IF your NIV was consistent and always translated the word "adversary/opponent" as the "name" ("Satan") of your "devil", then your "devil" is also named, "Hadad", "Rezon", "David" and "YHVH's anger" (I Chronicles 21.1/ II Samuel 24.1) Will the real "devil" please stand up! (Repeat, There is no "Satan". The word is properly translated as "adversary/opponent"). WHERE is your "infallible knowledge"? You keep using that word...... Irrelevant. You think the Third Temple has already been built and destroyed. So, according to your logic, the "End Times" have already happened. And the planet is still here, and everything is still the same as always. Then what are all the missionaries doing? |
8th November 2016, 11:47 AM | #451 |
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Shortly before you started posting I compared PB to the priests of Baal praying for their deity to ignite their sacrifice for them. I mentioned Paul was lucky there was no Elijah in the sidelines quietly pouring water on his sacrifice.
You keep calling down fire on PB's head, and he's just sitting there going, "This is fine." |
8th November 2016, 11:57 AM | #452 |
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Thanks for this. I had not seen the translation before, and in my opinion it is a huge improvement on the original. This - I mean the juxtaposition of the last line here with what goes before - has always struck me as incongruous.
We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved, and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders Fields. Take up our quarrel with the foe: So we loved, were loved, and are now dead. And now you've to do the same in return to our opponents, because we still have a "quarrel" with them. Sounds like a brawl outside a pub. Compare the corresponding French words describing the "quarrel": you must continue the fight in which we died: À vous de porter l'oriflamme Et de garder au fond de l'âme Le goût de vivre en liberté. Retain in your soul the desire to live in freedom. Is that not so much more seemly, as a motive for prosecuting a war? As to the removal of the specific reference to "Flanders", for which the French translation substitutes "the field of honour"; that is in order too. The war was fought across Western Flanders and Northern France, with similar slaughter in every region that it touched. In Flanders the language of the majority is not French, but Dutch. That, however, is not relevant to the message of the poem, and the geographical specific is therefore best omitted. |
8th November 2016, 11:58 AM | #453 |
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8th November 2016, 12:18 PM | #454 |
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8th November 2016, 12:40 PM | #455 |
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I know right?
He does not understand the concept that "NT" is not the same as "OT". And/or will not admit his belief in a devil/hell is not found in the OT, so he quotes from the NT to "prove" his point. And when everyone points out his failure he..... ....does that ^ |
8th November 2016, 12:55 PM | #456 |
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This is not unique to him. Christians are raised to see the NT as the fulfillment of the OT. The fact that there are SUBSTANTIAL theological shifts are largely lost as the only "change" really taught is the arrival of the Messiah. Most Christians aren't even aware of the massive theological shifts between the older and newer Gospels.
PB is mistakenly trying to argue about what the Christian Bible as a whole says about Satan and the afterlife. The fact that the OT says substantially different things about those topics than the NT is probably news to him. This thread may literally be the very first time this concept is being introduced to him. This would be a a heady concept for someone willing to learn. I can't imagine how a man convinced he's infallible in his interpretation of scripture could even BEGIN to process such information. Until he finds a way to spin it as something he always knew, like the way he's now responding to discussion of how many temples have existed, I doubt we'll get anything but over denial and mocking from him. |
8th November 2016, 03:15 PM | #457 |
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I have seen what you are talking about, with the missionaries. To them, the OT and NT are all one "book", and they do not see the contradiction. They seem to think that Judaism is "Christianity minus Jesus". They do not understand at all that there are major differences, that have nothing to do with who is/is not "The Messiah". In Judaism, it has never been an issue when someone claims (there have been MANY) to be "The Messiah". It is not a "sin" or a "crime" as the NT portrays.
The difference is not about "Messiah". The difference is the two beliefs systems are so opposite. Judaism is all about "this physical life/world" and Christianity is all about the "afterlife/heaven/hell". The missionaries can not understand, and are not willing to try (because it will upset their beliefs). I have not studied the NT, but I have read it (I was shocked!) and read a bit about the history of when/where/how it was put together. It is too bad that Christians do not know the history of their own NT. But, religious/observant Jews do the same thing about the Tanakh. They actually believe the Torah was given "at Sinai" to "~3 million witnesses", instead of the truth. They do not want to hear that parts were written over many centuries, and the whole thing was put together according to the already established beliefs during the 2nd Temple era. I have studied with the Samaritans (very interesting!) and compared their Torah with the Jewish Torah, which have some major differences. (And their Torah was also "divinely given" at Sinai). I think your prediction will be 100% true.... |
8th November 2016, 03:36 PM | #458 |
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8th November 2016, 03:40 PM | #459 |
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At least they don't claim three million witnesses to the divine origin of the Book of Mormon. They are content with a million times fewer.
The Three Witnesses were a group of three early leaders of the Latter Day Saint movement who wrote in a statement of 1830 that an angel had shown them the golden plates from which Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon and that they had heard God's voice testifying that the book had been translated by the power of God.Wiki. |
8th November 2016, 04:29 PM | #460 |
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Many, many years ago a last-minute change in traveling companions and a car breakdown permitted me to stay overnight at the former home of one of them, in New York. I forget which one, but the house was quite attractive. Our traveling companion -- a Utah resident and former New Yorker -- knew the live-in Mormon curators of the house/museum at the time, and arranged accommodations there. The curators were very gracious; they recognized I had only a passing interest in the religious significance of the house, but a keen interest in early 19th century Americana and artifacts, and entertained my interest in their preservation efforts. Sorry for the off-topic reverie, but I had forgotten about that stayover until you mentioned it.
Back to the notion of revisionism, I have to readily agree with the proposition that modern Christians really don't understand the OT, and Mr Bethke epitomizes that. It would be one thing if Christians just admitted they have reinterpreted the elder law, but they don't. They seem to believe that what they glean from the OT is fundamentally what the Jewish faith gleans from it, sans Jesus as Zivan says. |
9th November 2016, 06:28 AM | #461 |
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Zivan,
Let's say an American whose wife qualifies for citizenship in Israel finds himself seeking to learn modern Hebrew. Are there any resources or self-study programs / applications you would recommend? |
9th November 2016, 08:20 AM | #462 |
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How very strange ...
One should think that someone who is both immortal and who has God as a BFF would ever have to deal with something as mundane as a Forum suspension. |
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9th November 2016, 08:41 AM | #463 |
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9th November 2016, 08:51 AM | #464 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th November 2016, 09:00 AM | #465 |
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I suspect it was accumulation of personal insults. I kept getting notices that my posts had been edited only to find the edits were because of rule breaches in the PB comments I was quoting.
I supposed it's just as well. If he learned how to actually debate people instead of just insulting them he might eventually accumulate converts. |
9th November 2016, 10:51 AM | #466 |
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(Sorry, my computer keeps crashing and I could not get online).
There are many different books/resourses and I think it is a personal preference for each person. Here is one I think is good. It includes more common expressions and not just "proper" Hebrew. (For example, many books will teach you to say "shmi" for "my name is....". This book shows you that, and also "kor'im li......", which is what most people actually say instead of "shmi"). Plus, it has audio and a website to practice hearing/speaking: https://www.amazon.com/Living-Langua...anguage+hebrew This is a good online dictionary. There is also an app (many Israelis use it). Unfortunately the app is only in Hebrew, but the online site is both Hebrew and English. (You can still use the Hebrew app to search words in Hebrew or English). http://www.morfix.co.il/en/ Guy Sharett (lives in Tel Aviv) has a weekly short podcast (~10 minutes) to teach English speakers common every day Hebrew, includes slang which is used a lot. It is called "Streetwise Hebrew". You can subscribe to the podcasts. (He is a very nice person and also gives "grafitti tours" in Tel Aviv). http://tlv1.fm/podcasts/streetwise-hebrew-show/ I hope that helps for a start. |
9th November 2016, 11:27 AM | #467 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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9th November 2016, 11:32 AM | #468 |
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No, for me.
Given some of his speeches and ads, antisemitism is in the cards for a Trump Administration, so having a viable exist strategy is wise, the sooner preparation starts the better. Besides, I think it would be a riot to translate my x-rated political parody writing into Hebrew and see if it sells any better than the English version. |
9th November 2016, 11:36 AM | #469 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th November 2016, 11:37 AM | #470 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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9th November 2016, 11:48 AM | #471 |
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If you mean "exit" strategy - requiring an "exist" strategy seems a bit extreme as yet - that's rather like my Brexit strategy in the UK.
Well, I've got two: get my country, Scotland, to secede from the British Union and remain in the European Union. But that doesn't depend on me alone, so I'm also applying for a Republic of Ireland passport, to which the birthplace of my grandmother entitles me. |
9th November 2016, 11:51 AM | #472 |
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Enough people consider the election results to be sign enough of the end times that the Canadian immigration website crashed earlier today.
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9th November 2016, 11:53 AM | #473 |
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No need to apologize. I'm in a position where I need to seriously contemplate options for getting my wife and sons out of the country for their personal safety. I'd say I need all the jokes and humor I can get!
Canada isn't really an option because I'd need to know French to really have a shot. Israel is better but still dodgy as an option because the period of "Oh, your're a Jew! Come on in!" has been closing down for a while now and immigration has been getting harder for a number of years. (I researched the process a few years ago because a friend was considering moving but decided it was too much hassle at the time.) |
9th November 2016, 11:54 AM | #474 |
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9th November 2016, 11:54 AM | #475 |
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9th November 2016, 11:55 AM | #476 |
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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9th November 2016, 11:56 AM | #477 |
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9th November 2016, 12:01 PM | #478 |
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9th November 2016, 12:10 PM | #479 |
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Thank you very much! I'll check them out.
UKIP is pretty much the prelude to Trump. Besides, it gets me to the same problem I have with Canada. I'm a computer programmer, not exactly a skill either country is chomping at the bit to get more of. |
9th November 2016, 12:11 PM | #480 |
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I do not know how Google Translate is with other languages, but for Hebrew, it gives very strange "translations" sometimes. Very strange.
(Ugh! My computer has crashed for good. My friend let me use hers for that last post and this one, but she told me not to "get attached", lol). |
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