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Old 9th November 2016, 12:34 PM   #481
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
I do not know how Google Translate is with other languages, but for Hebrew, it gives very strange "translations" sometimes. Very strange.

(Ugh! My computer has crashed for good. My friend let me use hers for that last post and this one, but she told me not to "get attached", lol).
Google Translate produces some weird results when going TO English as well.

There's the classic joke that an early computerized translator was used to translate the phrase "The spirit is willing but the body is weak" from English to Russian and then back into English, and the result was, "the alcohol is strong but the flesh is rotten." Computerized translation has not improved THAT dramatically in the ensuing decades. Still, such mangled results could be loads of fun for a porn story featuring Donald Trump on the receiving end of numerous degradations.

I'm tempted to PM you a sample, but that's not the sort of thing one sends without asking first.
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Old 9th November 2016, 12:44 PM   #482
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
I do not know how Google Translate is with other languages, but for Hebrew, it gives very strange "translations" sometimes. Very strange.

(Ugh! My computer has crashed for good. My friend let me use hers for that last post and this one, but she told me not to "get attached", lol).
Google translate is fine for getting the general gist.

For precision, forget it.
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Old 9th November 2016, 01:08 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
There's the classic joke that an early computerized translator was used to translate the phrase "The spirit is willing but the body is weak" from English to Russian and then back into English, and the result was, "the alcohol is strong but the flesh is rotten."
There's another version which has "out of sight, out of mind" converted into "invisible idiot".
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Old 9th November 2016, 01:15 PM   #484
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There's another version which has "out of sight, out of mind" converted into "invisible idiot".


That sounds entirely plausible.

I'm tempted to look these up on Snopes now.
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Old 9th November 2016, 02:08 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There's another version which has "out of sight, out of mind" converted into "invisible idiot".
A boarding house I visited in Rome gave tourists information derived from this source. Piazza Venezia became "square Venice" and the Porta Maggiore was the "bigger door".
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Old 9th November 2016, 02:32 PM   #486
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I believe all of those example are true! (I love the "invisible idiot" one)!

Google Translate is getting better, but before, it was really messed up.

A couple years ago my friend introduced me to her brother, his name was Yermi. We were FB friends, and he wrote on my FB page, in Hebrew:

"Hi Ziva, I hope you have a great week, Love, Yermi!"

When I checked FB, there were some comments from FB friends in England who I met on a forum, that did not know Hebrew. They were writing things like, "Who is this guy?", "Why did you leave his comment up?", "Are you sure you want everyone to know about this?", "Why is he writing THAT on your page?", etc., etc.

I had no idea why they said all that about a simple greeting! Finally someone said, "We DO know how to use Google Translate, and we know what he said". I still did not understand, so I copy/pasted the greeting and put it in Google Translate. Google translated it as:

"Hi Bright light, I hope great week for love, will cheat!"








(My name is Ziva, "n" is the first letter of my last name).
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Old 9th November 2016, 02:42 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
That sounds entirely plausible.

I'm tempted to look these up on Snopes now.
It's apocryphal. My sibling is a professional translator for decades. She collects these out of interest.

The general rule in that community is that one may translate INTO one's native language, but one may not translate OUT of it into a non-native language.

Paul Bethke seems not to grok why this should be.
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Old 9th November 2016, 03:42 PM   #488
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
There's another version which has "out of sight, out of mind" converted into "invisible idiot".
According to one story, a translation computer was used to convert some engineering documents from English to Russian.

The Russians reading the translation asked, "What does the phrase 'Water Goat' refer to?"

The English phrase was "hydraulic ram."
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Old 10th November 2016, 07:29 AM   #489
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Eventually this thread will drift back on topic, and when it does, I would like to propose that this image is relevant to the whole "Name of God" and "Who worships what God" parts of the Christian vs Jew vs Muslim vs Mormon question.



If any ONE of those religions is even vaguely in the ballpark of close to being kinda-sorta-right then the conflict between them serves only evil, in whatever form "evil" takes in your faith.
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Old 10th November 2016, 07:54 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Eventually this thread will drift back on topic, and when it does, I would like to propose that this image is relevant to the whole "Name of God"
"Jehovah starts with an "I"."
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Old 10th November 2016, 08:30 AM   #491
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Zivan,

My wife and I are now working out the details of a weekly Hebrew study session with our eldest son. She knows a bit but is quite rusty.

We've concluded that this is worth doing not just in case we need an exit strategy in the near future, but because it means in a few years the next time my Mother tries to discuss the Bible I can turn to her and say, "OK, Let's go back to the original Hebrew to check on that. You can borrow this dictionary to try and keep up."

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Old 10th November 2016, 06:57 PM   #492
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I just noticed - Paul Bethke is suspended.

If I may ask, when did that happen, and why?
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Old 11th November 2016, 03:21 AM   #493
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Humots View Post
I just noticed - Paul Bethke is suspended.



If I may ask, when did that happen, and why?


According to his mention in the "Public Notices" section it was on November 8:

Quote:
Paul Bethke
Paul Bethke has been suspended for 1 week for repeatedly breaching his Membership Agreement.
I don't know if the moderators are allowed to comment in more detail than that. I personally noticed a number of his comments have been edited by the moderators, mostly for personal insults. Based on my experiences with him and the content that has been removed in this thread ,I suspect his most recent suspension has been for insulting people personally instead of attacking their arguments.

Stepping back for a wider picture for a moment, debates like these do seem to lend themselves to personal attacks. Earlier in the thread I mentioned my mother's reaction to my researching some of the, frankly ignorant, claims that the televangelist Joseph Prince makes about secret messianic messages hidden in the Hebrew language. Her response was not to think critically about what I had said or try and do her own research to mount a defense. Her response was to personally attack the people I've spoken to about the Hebrew language, accusing them of being jealous of Joseph Prince's success.

There is a witches brew of ignorance on a topic, conviction that one is right on that topic, and personal disdain for the opposition, that bubbles and boils into vitriol very quickly.
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Old 11th November 2016, 07:11 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I don't know if the moderators are allowed to comment in more detail than that. I personally noticed a number of his comments have been edited by the moderators, mostly for personal insults. Based on my experiences with him and the content that has been removed in this thread ,I suspect his most recent suspension has been for insulting people personally instead of attacking their arguments.

Stepping back for a wider picture for a moment, debates like these do seem to lend themselves to personal attacks. Earlier in the thread I mentioned my mother's reaction to my researching some of the, frankly ignorant, claims that the televangelist Joseph Prince makes about secret messianic messages hidden in the Hebrew language. Her response was not to think critically about what I had said or try and do her own research to mount a defense. Her response was to personally attack the people I've spoken to about the Hebrew language, accusing them of being jealous of Joseph Prince's success.

There is a witches brew of ignorance on a topic, conviction that one is right on that topic, and personal disdain for the opposition, that bubbles and boils into vitriol very quickly.
Quite. Especially when the beliefs asserted are so much a part of one's identity. It is very difficult, in this case, to separate Paul Bethke the self-declared prophet, from a belief in Biblical prophecy itself. Ditto all the other parts of his, shall we say 'unique', view of Christianity.His whole life, his identity and his raison d'etre are inextricably entwined with his beliefs. Thus, when these beliefs are questioned, it can easliy be taken as a personal attack, prompting an undertandable, if not necessarily excusable, defensive reaction against the person he sees as attacking him.
I see this all the time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, with religious fanatics and conspiracy theorists. Their identity is built on their beliefs, and so to question their beliefs invites an emotional reaction, rather than a reasoned response, because the challenge has threatened their sense of self.
This makes for an interesting challenge for skeptics. We (presumably) wish to avoid personal attacks and just debate the issues, because as skeptics we should be distinguishing ourselves from the arguments we make. We also, of course, want to remain within the terms of the MA. With these two criteria in mind, we want to explore and debate, to determine the truth and validity of any given argument. It's a tough one, and one that needs to be handled with sensitivity. I'm not saying I'm any shining example of this practice, but I think it's something we should all be aiming at.
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Old 11th November 2016, 09:13 AM   #495
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The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It by Peter Enns

I think this book may be very helpful to PB. It discusses the struggles an Evangelical had trying to deal with all the questions he had to push down and set aside in order to read the Bible literally. It takes us on his spiritual journey and gives the faithful a new way to read the Bible that does not bind one to assumptions of literal interpretation. Besides, the Kindle version is currently on sale for $1.99 on as I type this.

Quote:
The controversial Bible scholar and author of The Evolution of Adam recounts his transformative spiritual journey in which he discovered a new, more honest way to love and appreciate God’s Word.

Trained as an evangelical Bible scholar, Peter Enns loved the Scriptures and shared his devotion, teaching at Westminster Theological Seminary. But the further he studied the Bible, the more he found himself confronted by questions that could neither be answered within the rigid framework of his religious instruction or accepted among the conservative evangelical community.

Rejecting the increasingly complicated intellectual games used by conservative Christians to “protect” the Bible, Enns was conflicted. Is this what God really requires? How could God’s plan for divine inspiration mean ignoring what is really written in the Bible? These questions eventually cost Enns his job—but they also opened a new spiritual path for him to follow.

The Bible Tells Me So chronicles Enns’s spiritual odyssey, how he came to see beyond restrictive doctrine and learned to embrace God’s Word as it is actually written. As he explores questions progressive evangelical readers of Scripture commonly face yet fear voicing, Enns reveals that they are the very questions that God wants us to consider—the essence of our spiritual study.
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Old 11th November 2016, 10:43 AM   #496
halleyscomet
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No, I'm not going to Hell for this:



Why? Because if there's a God he's also responsible for these:



http://i.imgur.com/92hudoe.mp4



YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Anyone responsible for that has GOT to have a sick, twisted sense of humor.
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Old 15th November 2016, 11:56 PM   #497
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Well here I am again

Well here I am again, revitalised, having time to consider the posts.

Thank you for the applause!

Now let me say that I am in no way intimidated by what has been presented, it is a clear indication that the posters have not considered what I posted.

As I have always stated is that when considering truth, a return to the beginning is essential, Jews and Christians fail to do this.

In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth in six days, and on the seventh day he rested and admired what he had created.

He created man (Adam) and from man he created woman (Eve), then he instituted marriage.
This institution was meant to be the protocol of all marriage, any departure from one man taking one woman as a wife is considered as adultery. So we all share a common ancestral heritage.

The next encounter is with the snake (a talking snake at that) this snake is known as Satan, the devil, the deceiver, and the adversary, the opponent, (of what?) so it is known that Satan as I call him, is the adversary of God. Where does Satan come from, it is not known until the prophets emerge.

Now it must be established who God is, as this God is the Creator!

So this adversary persuades the woman to eat of the fruit that was forbidden, thereby contradicting God—so this is how life on earth began.
The question can be asked is why God allowed this to happen.
The answer is clear, in that man now had a choice, and from there on man had to choose his own destiny. The choice determines ones destiny.

It was the same with Cain, God gave him a choice, but Cain disregarded that which God prescribed, so he continued in the path of crime, this is typical of man today.

The next event of note is that Lamek took two wives, this in violation of the marriage covenant, so man now began to take multiple wives which resulted in violence, and subsequently God the Creator decided to put an end to this.

He commissioned Noah a righteous man, who maintained the marriage covenant and ensured that his sons did the same, to build a boat, known as the ark, to house his family and a pair of each of the animals God created.

So as a result, all land life perished in a gigantic flood, leaving only Noah and his family and the animals saved to perpetuate life on earth.

Now whether you believe this account or not, this is what is recorded.
So from that time forward we are all the descendants of the Noah family.

So the commands carried forward were the keeping of the Sabbath to acknowledge Elohim as the Creator, and the marriage covenant between a man and a woman—so a man could not put away his wife, or separate from her, or as it is understood, divorce her. Further to that the covenant was expanded to include the death penalty and the prohibition against eating flesh with the blood still in it.

The next event of note was God revealing himself to Abram, and encouraging him to leave his idolatrous situation.
Now as it was God found one man who would follow his leading, as Noah did, and so God intended to reveal his plans to Abram.
So from Abraham the people of the twelve tribes originated, known as the Hebrews.
They multiplied in the land of Egypt and later were enslaved.

Next there is the appointment of Moses, with the mandate to go and bring this vast nation of Israel out from under the slavery of Pharaoh, by utilising the power that he was given.

But what is significant is that God revealed himself to Moses as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, saying that this is the Name by which he will be identified for all time.

Next the Egyptians were left with no option but to let the Hebrews go as the power displayed against them, devastated the land. Israel left Egypt in ruins and was led by Moses across the sea into the desert.

This is where YHVH gave them the Covenant inscribed on the two stone tablets and there after the Torah was written down by Moses and kept in the Ark with the stone tablets.

Moses died and Joshua took over the leadership, destroying the people in Canaan as directed by YHVH through Moses. So as is evident YHVH was in constant need of men who would maintain the decrees as promulgated in the Torah.

Sadly this was not the case and Israel began to indulge in the idolatrous practices of the people who remained in the land. Time and again YHVH found men to liberate the tribes, by raising up Judges.

The next man of significance is Samuel, who united Israel under the influence of the Torah—now the Torah being the five books that Moses was responsible for putting together, which was also known as the Covenant. Now from the Torah everything is scrutinised, that which does not comply with the Torah is rejected.

So historically the conduct of Israel was scrutinised in accordance with the Torah.
Israel’s history is based on the response of the obedience to the Torah and the consequence of disobedience to the Torah.

So ultimately the Torah will be the means by which the whole world, and all the peoples of the earth—the living and the dead will be judged.

So to date Israel is nowhere near the total obedience to the Torah, in actual fact they are as far from obedience, as they were in decades gone by.

The prophecies concerning the return of Israel to the Covenant are still to be finalised—that being as Ezekiel stated.
Eze 36:16 Again the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 36:17 "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight.
Eze 36:18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols.
Eze 36:19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions.
Eze 36:20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy Name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.'
Eze 36:21 I had concern for my holy Name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy Name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
Eze 36:23 I will show the holiness of my great Name, which has been profaned among the nations, the Name you have profaned among them.
Then the nations will know that I AM the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Eze 36:28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.


So this is still an outstanding prophecy that has to be fulfilled!!!



So what is the outstanding issues???

1)Death ---do the dead cease to exist—well not according to the Scriptures, You see that when God addressed Moses, he addressed Moses as the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, even long after they were gathered. So he is as Jesus states, the God of the living not the dead (Mat_22:32 "I AM the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.") Again (Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!")
But what about Daniel, one of the most righteous—?
(Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.)

(Dan 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the END. You will rest, and then at the END of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

(Eze_28:3 Are you wiser than Daniel? Is no secret hidden from you?) So we can rely on the visions given to Daniel!!

13-Principles-of-Jewish Faith. 13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.



2) How many Temples were built, it appears that many are not able to count passed two---well it is known that Solomon built the original Temple the first number one, that was destroyed completely by Nebuchadnezzar.
Then after the exile the Jews were given permission to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and the Temple.

There was the Temple that Zerubbabel built (Ezr_5:2 Then Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel and Jeshua son of Jozadak set to work to rebuild the house of God in Jerusalem. And the prophets of God were with them, helping them.
(Zec_4:9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.)

This Temple was not on the scale of Solomon’s, on the same site, but smaller—( Hag 2:3 "Who of you is left who saw this house in its former glory? How does it look to you now? Does it not seem to you like nothing? )


Then there was the Temple that Herod built, on the same site, but a new building, (much bigger than that of Zerubbabel,) which the Romans destroyed to the last stone. So there were THREE Temples built.

So the conclusion of the matter is that all three Temples ceased to exist due to the disobedience of the Jews to the Torah.

3) Then as always the judgement of YHVH against those that commit adultery.

4) Now the rape verses the seduction---having time to prove that the girl was seduced and not raped—the following gives an explanation—

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...brew_Index.htm
Deuteronomy 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her,and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 25 הַ מְ אֹ רָ שָׂ ה e·marshe the·being-mbetrothed וְ הֶ חֱזִ יק u·echziq and·he-cholds-fast ־ - בָּ הּ b·e in·her הָ אִ ישׁ e·aish the·man וְ שָׁ כַ ב u·shkb and·he-lies-down עִ מָּ הּ om·e with·her וּמֵ ת u·mth and·he-dies
So here we see that the man forced her.

Now:---

Deuteronomy 22:28 22 ki that ־ - יִ מְ צָ א imtza he-is-finding אִ ישׁ aish man K נַעַ ר nor maiden Q נַעֲרָ ה nore maiden בְ תוּלָ ה bthule virgin אֲשֶׁ ר ashr who ל ֹא la not ־ - אֹ רָ שָׂ ה arshe she-is-mbetrothed If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
So here we see that the word forced is not used


So Israel has failed to be the light to the nations—this is where the PURGED Church of God will fulfil what Israel has failed to do, and at the same time fulfil the prophecies regarding the restoration of peace to Israel.

Jesus is a Jew so he would not introduce any new doctrine outside what is prescribed in the Torah.
So to read and take note of the conduct of the Jews with regards to the Decalogue and the Torah is a relatively simple matter, keeping the Torah in view at all times—it is like a measuring tape, all measuring tapes must be exactly the same, otherwise there will be confusion.

The Torah was to teach the Hebrews not to follow the practices of the nations they would dispossess.
(Lev_18:3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you.
Do not follow their practices.)
(Lev 18:30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I AM the LORD your God.'" )

So the Torah is still relevant today so as we can recognise these evil practices and customs!!

So the sins Israel committed in the past are still present today!

So the Kingdom of God will be the END of sin and the beginning of right living in accordance with the Torah.
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Old 16th November 2016, 03:18 AM   #498
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Welcome back.

I notice that nowhere in your post that you address why anyone should accept Yahweh's collection of stories as being true over any other collection of deity stories.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:25 AM   #499
Craig B
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth in six days, and on the seventh day he rested and admired what he had created.
This primitive anthropomorphism is truly charming. The Creator needs a "rest", and he "admires" his own work. Like a school child who has just completed a homework assignment.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:27 AM   #500
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This primitive anthropomorphism is truly charming. The Creator needs a "rest", and he "admires" his own work. Like a school child who has just completed a homework assignment.
More like a special needs child who builds an ant farm just to **** with it.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:36 AM   #501
Paul Bethke
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Welcome back.

I notice that nowhere in your post that you address why anyone should accept Yahweh's collection of stories as being true over any other collection of deity stories.
Perhaps like Abraham, I encountered the same God as he did. His experience was real enough for Abraham to follow the direction that he was led.

Subsequently I have looked at other deities presented and find them unreal.
The collection of stories you refer to are quite realistic to me in a practical way.
These stories follow a common trend, which is the Torah.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:38 AM   #502
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
This primitive anthropomorphism is truly charming. The Creator needs a "rest", and he "admires" his own work. Like a school child who has just completed a homework assignment.
Well it is really something to admire--it has this explanation, that everything God did was very good.So we also admire that which God created.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:40 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
More like a special needs child who builds an ant farm just to **** with it.
I do not view it in that way--look around you and you will also admire what God has created--did you see the super moon?
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:43 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Perhaps like Abraham, I encountered the same God as he did. His experience was real enough for Abraham to follow the direction that he was led.

Subsequently I have looked at other deities presented and find them unreal.
The collection of stories you refer to are quite realistic to me in a practical way.
These stories follow a common trend, which is the Torah.
In other words, you have no reason why the myths of Yahweh are anymore real or valid than the myths of the Aesir, Avalon, Tir an Og, or the Happy Hunting Grounds other than your own wishes.

And these wishes have caused you to overlook, ignore and very poorly apologize for the real moral failings of the character in this anthology of fiction.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:44 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I do not view it in that way--look around you and you will also admire what God has created--did you see the super moon?
Let me put it this way: According to our observations, the universe is cold, mostly lifeless, hostile, random, and destructive in an infinite number of ways. It's almost unthinkable to step out of our solar system and extremely difficult to step off of our planet. It's a beautiful and fascinating world but with no direction or compassion. It seeks to kill you in every imaginable way. Life itself is inefficient, often miserable, and hostile to itself. According to the Bible, god is vindictive, jealous, angry, genocidal, vain and megalomaniacal.

So yeah, I think my analogy is pretty good. Now, if you posited a creator god-thing that simply popped into existence a universe with random physical laws and did little else than observe it, you might have a better case.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:45 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I do not view it in that way--look around you and you will also admire what God has created--did you see the super moon?
God didn't create the supermoon. Orbital mechanics did. He didn't even create the ordinary moon. It calved from Earth during the early formation of the solar system. Oh, wait -- that's pretty much just orbital mechanics too.
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Old 16th November 2016, 07:50 AM   #507
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
More like a special needs child who builds an ant farm just to **** with it.
Not special needs.

A sadist and sociopath. Just look at the morality of the people who defend his mist atrocious crimes.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well here I am again, revitalised, having time to consider the posts.
If you allegedly took the time to consider the posts, why did you vomit up a largely copypasta post that addressed none of the points raised in those posts?

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Old 16th November 2016, 08:04 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well it is really something to admire--it has this explanation, that everything God did was very good.So we also admire that which God created.
Where is the evidence that Yahweh created the world, rather than Tlaloc, Enlil, or Ra? Creation myths are universal - there is no more evidence to support either of the creation stories in the Bible than there is for any of the others.
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Old 16th November 2016, 09:10 AM   #509
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Subsequently I have looked at other deities presented and find them unreal.
You have claimed in many cases to have performed an objective comparative analysis that, it turned out later, you did not actually perform or benefit from. What evidence can you give that you have dispassionately considered all other religious traditions?

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The collection of stories you refer to are quite realistic to me in a practical way. These stories follow a common trend, which is the Torah.
But you have demonstrated you don't understand these stores. Leaving aside whether they're true, you simply don't understand them. You fail in all tests of your knowledge of their historical, linguistic, and social aspects. Can you explain that failure in any way besides denial?
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Old 16th November 2016, 09:43 AM   #510
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Subsequently I have looked at other deities presented and find them unreal.
I'm reminded of the top rated positive review for the comedy volume What Is Truth?: A Handbook for Separating Fact from Fiction in a Propaganda-Filled World by Kirk Hastings

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Many parodies and satires have a "tell" of some kind. This book's "tell" is the section on superstition. In it Hastings takes the reader on a brief trip back into logic and reason. He discusses the nature of superstition. For a tantalizing moment he makes the reader hope that they're about to be treated to a discussion of how Hastings believes Christianity differs from mere superstition, or how faith allows him to choose Christianity over Buddhism, Islam or another faith. In a deft twist of the knife, Hastings crashes the car and dismisses naturalism of all things as just another superstition, even though naturalism is the only thing for which there is actual evidence. The psychological whiplash crashes the reader straight back into Kirk's bizarre world of debunked arguments, logical fallacies and recanted or out of context quotes.
What "other deities" have you looked at and in what way did you find them "unreal?"

Can you make an argument for your deity beyond your own personal preference or an appeal to a text that's only holy to people who already believe in that deity??

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
But you have demonstrated you don't understand these stores. Leaving aside whether they're true, you simply don't understand them. You fail in all tests of your knowledge of their historical, linguistic, and social aspects. Can you explain that failure in any way besides denial?
Of course he can.

He will ignore you.

(Note, that was not a prophesy, just an extrapolation based upon past behavior.)

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Old 16th November 2016, 10:57 AM   #511
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well here I am again, revitalised, having time to consider the posts.

Thank you for the applause!

Now let me say that I am in no way intimidated by what has been presented, it is a clear indication that the posters have not considered what I posted.
Not an indication that we have not considered what you have written, but rather an indication that we rejected what you had written, and provided reasons for our rejection.

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As I have always stated is that when considering truth, a return to the beginning is essential, Jews and Christians fail to do this, as do I.
Fixed that for you.

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In the beginning God, created the heavens and the earth in six days, and on the seventh day he rested and admired what he had created.
Like a self satisfied git, or like many other creation myths? What is it that makes the creation stories found in Genesis more compelling than any of the other creation stories from other religions? None of them are supported by the physical evidence available.

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He created man (Adam) and from man he created woman (Eve), then he instituted marriage.
This institution was meant to be the protocol of all marriage, any departure from one man taking one woman as a wife is considered as adultery. So we all share a common ancestral heritage.
The creation of the institution of marriage is not a part of Genesis. The idea of monogamous marriage is implied by the legend, but no where in this story is it actually laid out.

Furthermore, genetic and fossil evidence is against the idea of a creation event only 6Kish years ago.

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The next encounter is with the snake (a talking snake at that) this snake is known as Satan, the devil, the deceiver, and the adversary, the opponent, (of what?) so it is known that Satan as I call him, is the adversary of God. Where does Satan come from, it is not known until the prophets emerge.
Reread your fable. The serpent is not identified as Satan - it is simply a serpent.

Satan is a later literary creation.

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Now it must be established who God is, as this God is the Creator!
Yahweh is a literary creation - simple. These stories are means by which people with limited means to understand or explain the world around them were able to do so. That doesn't make them accurate.

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So this adversary persuades the woman to eat of the fruit that was forbidden, thereby contradicting God—so this is how life on earth began.
The question can be asked is why God allowed this to happen.
The answer is clear, in that man now had a choice, and from there on man had to choose his own destiny. The choice determines ones destiny.
We can agree on the final point - a person's choices determine one's destiny.

As for the rest - Yahweh is supposed to have given a command - Don't eat this or die, but failed to explain to both of them what death was. Remember according to the Genesis myth, death was introduced into the world by this act of defiance. If you do not know what something is, the threat of it really isn't a threat.

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It was the same with Cain, God gave him a choice, but Cain disregarded that which God prescribed, so he continued in the path of crime, this is typical of man today.
Reread the story. Cain's anger arose because Yahweh rejected Cain's offering of vegetables and grain in favour of meat from Abel without an explanation of why. Cain gets upset by this and Abel gets killed - the why we don't know - maybe Abel was ragging on Cain claiming that Yahweh's meat tooth made Abel better than Cain and Cain just couldn't take that anymore, but since this legend is written down by people trying to tell a story with a moral (don't kill people or bad things happen) we don't get any motivation for Cain.

Furthermore, there is nothing in the story that suggests that Cain went on to a "life of crime". He was banished, got married, and founded a city. This leaves a lot of unanswered questions, but this is common in myths.

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The next event of note is that Lamek took two wives, this in violation of the marriage covenant, so man now began to take multiple wives which resulted in violence, and subsequently God the Creator decided to put an end to this.
Assumes facts not in evidence. There is nothing in Genesis to suggest that Yahweh disapproved of Lamech or anyone else having multiple wives.

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He commissioned Noah a righteous man, who maintained the marriage covenant and ensured that his sons did the same, to build a boat, known as the ark, to house his family and a pair of each of the animals God created.
A boat we know to be physically impossible. We also know that a pair of every animal could not be physically placed in a structure of that size

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So as a result, all land life perished in a gigantic flood, leaving only Noah and his family and the animals saved to perpetuate life on earth.
Actually quite a bit of water life would have perished as well - most aquatic animals are evolved to survive specific water conditions and changes to many of those conditions would lead to their death - for instance most molluscs would have perished in the flood as they would no longer be able to get food, could not travel to where food could be obtained and would have been crushed by the water pressure.

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Now whether you believe this account or not, this is what is recorded.
It is also recorded that Jormundr encircles the Earth with his tail in his mouth. Writing something down does not make it true.

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So from that time forward we are all the descendants of the Noah family.
Genetics disproves this statement. There is no evidence to suggest that the population of the earth was reduced to a single family grouping in the Levant less than 5000 years ago.

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So the commands carried forward were the keeping of the Sabbath to acknowledge Elohim as the Creator, and the marriage covenant between a man and a woman—so a man could not put away his wife, or separate from her, or as it is understood, divorce her. Further to that the covenant was expanded to include the death penalty and the prohibition against eating flesh with the blood still in it.
The covenant given by Yahweh to Noah says no such thing. Genesis 9 contains three commands:

Genesis 9:4 "Only flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat."
Genesis 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made He man."
Genesis 9:7 "And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; swarm in the earth, and multiply therein."

only one of which you mention above. There is no mention of marriage or divorce at all. This is something you are adding.

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The next event of note was God revealing himself to Abram, and encouraging him to leave his idolatrous situation.
Now as it was God found one man who would follow his leading, as Noah did, and so God intended to reveal his plans to Abram.
So from Abraham the people of the twelve tribes originated, known as the Hebrews.
This would be the Abraham that pimped out his wife to Pharaoh (Genesis 12:19)? The same one who, when he couldn't get his wife pregnant shagged his wife's slave (with the blessing of the wife) and then later drove his son by that slave and the mother into the desert to die because his wife got jealous?

The same one who was ready to kill his son as a means of showing how well Yahweh's abuse had worked at conditioning him?

That one?

In what reality does Abram display any redeeming qualities? He certainly isn't brave or moral, he just does what he's told like a good slave.

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They multiplied in the land of Egypt and later were enslaved.
Which is once again disproved by the archeological evidence.

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Next there is the appointment of Moses, with the mandate to go and bring this vast nation of Israel out from under the slavery of Pharaoh, by utilising the power that he was given.
There is no archeological proof of the events in Exodus. There is no corroborating evidence for the events in Egyptian, Hittite, Sumerian or Babylonian records. Exodus is a nation-building myth created by later kings in collaboration with a hereditary priesthood to justify the then current power structure.

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But what is significant is that God revealed himself to Moses as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, saying that this is the Name by which he will be identified for all time.
Except when he chooses to use a different name.

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Next the Egyptians were left with no option but to let the Hebrews go as the power displayed against them, devastated the land. Israel left Egypt in ruins and was led by Moses across the sea into the desert.
Once again, there is no archeological proof of the events in Exodus. There is no corroborating evidence for the events in Egyptian, Hittite, Sumerian or Babylonian records. Exodus is a nation-building myth created by later kings in collaboration with a hereditary priesthood to justify the then current power structure.

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This is where YHVH gave them the Covenant inscribed on the two stone tablets and there after the Torah was written down by Moses and kept in the Ark with the stone tablets.

Moses died and Joshua took over the leadership, destroying the people in Canaan as directed by YHVH through Moses. So as is evident YHVH was in constant need of men who would maintain the decrees as promulgated in the Torah.
The conquest of Canaan is a myth, created by later rulers to give some religious support to their claims over the lands they controlled. There is no archeological evidence to support the Joshua myth, or corroborating evidence of such a rapid power shift in any of the records of the neighbouring states.

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Sadly this was not the case and Israel began to indulge in the idolatrous practices of the people who remained in the land. Time and again YHVH found men to liberate the tribes, by raising up Judges.

The next man of significance is Samuel, who united Israel under the influence of the Torah—now the Torah being the five books that Moses was responsible for putting together, which was also known as the Covenant. Now from the Torah everything is scrutinised, that which does not comply with the Torah is rejected.
Samuel did not unite the 12 Tribes - as they rejected his leadership asking instead for a king.

Samuel later spread dissention in the Tribes by anointing a second King (David) when the first King disagreed with Samuel.

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So historically the conduct of Israel was scrutinised in accordance with the Torah.
Israel’s history is based on the response of the obedience to the Torah and the consequence of disobedience to the Torah.
Biblical history would disagree with you

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So ultimately the Torah will be the means by which the whole world, and all the peoples of the earth—the living and the dead will be judged.
This is dependent on the regional god Yahweh actually being able to extend his dominion - historically, he never has controlled more than a small portion of the Levant. It was not until the Captivity that the idea of Yahweh being omnipresent came about - likely so that the priests could maintain their social position.

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So to date Israel is nowhere near the total obedience to the Torah, in actual fact they are as far from obedience, as they were in decades gone by.

The prophecies concerning the return of Israel to the Covenant are still to be finalised—that being as Ezekiel stated.
Eze 36:16 Again the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 36:17 "Son of man, when the people of Israel were living in their own land, they defiled it by their conduct and their actions. Their conduct was like a woman's monthly uncleanness in my sight.
Eze 36:18 So I poured out my wrath on them because they had shed blood in the land and because they had defiled it with their idols.
Eze 36:19 I dispersed them among the nations, and they were scattered through the countries; I judged them according to their conduct and their actions.
Eze 36:20 And wherever they went among the nations they profaned my holy Name, for it was said of them, 'These are the LORD's people, and yet they had to leave his land.'
Eze 36:21 I had concern for my holy Name, which the house of Israel profaned among the nations where they had gone.
Eze 36:22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy Name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone.
Eze 36:23 I will show the holiness of my great Name, which has been profaned among the nations, the Name you have profaned among them.
Then the nations will know that I AM the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
Eze 36:24 "'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.
Eze 36:25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.
Eze 36:26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.
Eze 36:28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.


So this is still an outstanding prophecy that has to be fulfilled!!!
You mean the lands that Yahweh mythically allowed Joshua to steal from their original inhabitants? I though your deity was against theft?

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So what is are the outstanding issues???
FTFY

/GRAMMAR NAZI

I'm going to leave the rest for now. Lunch is nearly over.
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Old 16th November 2016, 11:41 AM   #512
halleyscomet
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Back to the commandments for a moment, new evidence has surfaced to reveal the previously lost Commandments 11 through 15.
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Old 16th November 2016, 11:44 AM   #513
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Back to the commandments for a moment, new evidence has surfaced to reveal the previously lost Commandments 11 through 15.


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Old 16th November 2016, 02:13 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well here I am again, revitalised reinstated*, having time to consider the posts.
Wherein we see your word salad is unchanged and still unsupported (except by its own Gordian Knot of logical fallacies).

*FIFY
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Old 16th November 2016, 02:26 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well here I am again, revitalised, having time to consider the posts.
Which you obviously ignored.


Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
4) Now the rape verses the seduction---having time to prove that the girl was seduced and not raped—the following gives an explanation—

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...brew_Index.htm
Deuteronomy 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her,and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die: 25 הַ מְ אֹ רָ שָׂ ה e·marshe the·being-mbetrothed וְ הֶ חֱזִ יק u·echziq and·he-cholds-fast ־ - בָּ הּ b·e in·her הָ אִ ישׁ e·aish the·man וְ שָׁ כַ ב u·shkb and·he-lies-down עִ מָּ הּ om·e with·her וּמֵ ת u·mth and·he-dies
So here we see that the man forced her.

Now:---

Deuteronomy 22:28 22 ki that ־ - יִ מְ צָ א imtza he-is-finding אִ ישׁ aish man K נַעַ ר nor maiden Q נַעֲרָ ה nore maiden בְ תוּלָ ה bthule virgin אֲשֶׁ ר ashr who ל ֹא la not ־ - אֹ רָ שָׂ ה arshe she-is-mbetrothed If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
So here we see that the word forced is not used
Wow! You really are not embarrassed about this mess you copy/pasted are you?

It proves you are wrong (as many have been telling you, over and over and over again).

BOTH of those verses are about rape. There is NOTHING there about "seduction/consent". Nothing.

BOTH verses use a word that can be translated as "catch, capture, lay hold of, seize". You did NOT copy/paste that word from Deut 22:28, because you do not even know which word it is.

Even your precious NIV which you say 'accurately' translates, says:
Deuteronomy 22:28 "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered," (NIV)

Nothing in either of the two verses you posted can be translated (OR 'implied') to mean "seduction/consent". NOTHING.

The ONLY difference in the two verses is that in one verse the girl is married, and the other verse is a girl who is not married.

The word translated as "betrothal" means 'married'. It does not mean 'engaged', it means married. A 'betrothal' requires a divorce before either person can marry someone else. Re-marriage, according to Torah is NOT adultery.

Divorce is part of Torah law. You say Torah is the "word of God", and "given by God". You also say divorce is wrong. Torah, which you say is "given by God", says divorce is NOT wrong and re-marriage is NOT adultery. Which of your statements is correct? Are you saying your God is a liar?

(There are many parts to the marriage ceremony. In ancient times there was a time period between the parts. Today they are all done at the same time in ONE ceremony, instead of several).

I know you will ignore this (after you get unsuspended again) exactly like you ignored all the comments written to you by EVERYONE after you came back from your previous suspension.
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Old 16th November 2016, 05:26 PM   #516
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Zivan View Post
The word translated as "betrothal" means 'married'. It does not mean 'engaged', it means married. A 'betrothal' requires a divorce before either person can marry someone else.

That's something Paul really should know. In the New Testament, Mary and Joseph, the legal father and biological mother of Jesus, were "only" betrothed when they went off for a couple of years and, as far as their neighbors were concerned, had a kid together.
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Old 17th November 2016, 08:38 AM   #517
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Does anyone know if there is a forum record for the lowest number of posts between suspensions?

Back on topic, or as on topic as this thread ever gets, I still find it disappointing that Paul is still pursuing his deflated "It's not about rape" argument. He explicitly conceded that the the "buy her for silver" passage was about rape when it was convenient for him to do so. We know that he knows the passage is about rape, yet he still tries to claim otherwise. And to what end? To defend the morality of a deity who drowned an untold number of children and infants like unwanted kittens?
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Old 17th November 2016, 09:52 AM   #518
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
That's something Paul really should know. In the New Testament, Mary and Joseph, the legal father and biological mother of Jesus, were "only" betrothed when they went off for a couple of years and, as far as their neighbors were concerned, had a kid together.
Yes, another "ooops" moment for the NT.

The very fact they were living together means the second part of the marriage ceremony (nissuin, where the bride begins living with her husband) had taken place. With or without a formal ceremony.

Today in modern weddings the erusin ("betrothal") is represented by the groom putting a ring on the bride's finger at the wedding ceremony. The second part, the nussuin, is represented by the couple being under the chuppah during the ceremony.
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Old 17th November 2016, 11:59 AM   #519
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As I indicated in my previous post, the following outstanding issues, save number 4 as Zivan has covered that far better than I could.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So what is are the outstanding issues???
Sorry, had to fix that incorrect use of the English language again.

Quote:
1)Death ---do the dead cease to exist—well not according to the Scriptures, You see that when God addressed Moses, he addressed Moses as the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, even long after they were gathered. So he is as Jesus states, the God of the living not the dead (Mat_22:32 "I AM the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.") Again (Mar_12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!")
But what about Daniel, one of the most righteous—?
(Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.)

(Dan 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the END. You will rest, and then at the END of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

(Eze_28:3 Are you wiser than Daniel? Is no secret hidden from you?) So we can rely on the visions given to Daniel!!

13-Principles-of-Jewish Faith. 13. The belief in the resurrection of the dead.
Not being Jewish, or raised Jewish (I was raised in the Presbyterian Church of Canada and have since become an atheist) I felt it best to take a trip to several websites and see what the people perhaps best suited to interpret the OT have to say - and as has been stated here before, an afterlife is not part of the Torah. The consensus is that this was a conscious decision on the part of the ancient Hebrews to differentiate themselves from the life after death obsessed Egyptians by focussing all their religious energy on this world.

Resurrection is slightly different than an afterlife and, given that its first clear references were in Daniel (written during the Babylonian captivity) were intended to be a literal raising of the dead (fear the Zombie Jews) so that they could receive the blessings in the corporeal world. Looking at the various writings on the subject, it is fairly clear that resurrection of the dead is a later addition to the Jewish tradition, but is not a resurrection in how most Christians today understand the term.


Quote:
2) How many Temples were built, it appears that many are not able to count passed two---well it is known that Solomon built the original Temple the first number one, that was destroyed completely by Nebuchadnezzar.
Then after the exile the Jews were given permission to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and the Temple.

There was the Temple that Zerubbabel built (Ezr_5:2 Then Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel and Jeshua son of Jozadak set to work to rebuild the house of God in Jerusalem. And the prophets of God were with them, helping them.
(Zec_4:9 "The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the LORD Almighty has sent me to you.)

This Temple was not on the scale of Solomon’s, on the same site, but smaller—( Hag 2:3 "Who of you is left who saw this house in its former glory? How does it look to you now? Does it not seem to you like nothing? )


Then there was the Temple that Herod built, on the same site, but a new building, (much bigger than that of Zerubbabel,) which the Romans destroyed to the last stone. So there were THREE Temples built.

So the conclusion of the matter is that all three Temples ceased to exist due to the disobedience of the Jews to the Torah.
No, if you accept that Herod's Temple is the third Temple, then two(Solomon's and Herod's) were destroyed because their enemies engaged in the quite traditional "demonstrate the power of our military and our Gods by destroying your places of worship", while the third (Zerrubbabel's) was torn down by the Jews themselves so that they could build it again into Herod's.

Traditional historiography gives us 2 Temples with Herod's Temple being the second as it is considered to be an renovation and expansion of Zerubbabel's original, not a new Temple.

Additionally, there have been several attempts to make a proper Third Temple since the destruction of the Second, but none of those have been completed for various reasons

Quote:
3) Then as always the judgement of YHVH against those that commit adultery.
Except of course when Yahweh is OK with it. The Patriarchs and several of the Kings all had multiple wives - as Paul has defined this as adultery then he would have to accept that:

Abraham;
Issac;
Jacob;
David; and Solomon are all being punished for their adultery - except they weren't. the first three are honoured in Jewish faith for being the fathers of the faith and the second two were not only elevated to kingship, but were considered to be great kings in the Biblical presentation.

Hard to claim there is a consistent punishment for adultery when there isn't.

Quote:
So Israel has failed to be the light to the nations—this is where the PURGED Church of God will fulfil what Israel has failed to do, and at the same time fulfil the prophecies regarding the restoration of peace to Israel.

Jesus is a Jew so he would not introduce any new doctrine outside what is prescribed in the Torah.
So to read and take note of the conduct of the Jews with regards to the Decalogue and the Torah is a relatively simple matter, keeping the Torah in view at all times—it is like a measuring tape, all measuring tapes must be exactly the same, otherwise there will be confusion.

The Torah was to teach the Hebrews not to follow the practices of the nations they would dispossess.
(Lev_18:3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you.
Do not follow their practices.)
(Lev 18:30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I AM the LORD your God.'" )

So the Torah is still relevant today so as we can recognise these evil practices and customs!!

So the sins Israel committed in the past are still present today!
And?

those quotes clearly define Yahweh as a regional deity, and since I do not reside in that region, his laws and rules have no effect on me.

Furthermore, you have yet to establish the existence of this Yahweh. If his existence cannot be verified, why should I concern myself with his rules?

So the Kingdom of God will be the END of sin and the beginning of right living in accordance with the Torah.[/quote]
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Old 17th November 2016, 01:31 PM   #520
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Since you will be away from the Forum for a while longer, then when you return Paul Bethke please use some of your God powers and/or normal powers to show us mere human mortals that this God of yours does actually exist.

Thanks much.
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