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13th December 2016, 10:57 AM | #601 |
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What you are asking is no different than asking where the "original" Harry Potter novels from which J.K. Rowling copied. Fake documents do not need to have a prior "original". They can simply be made up.
I could cite similar nonsense from the Koran. Would you agree to convert to Islam? If not, why not? You are not reconsidering anything. |
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13th December 2016, 11:00 AM | #602 |
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Forgeries are not necessarily copies of extant documents, they may simply be fabrications made from whole cloth and ATTRIBUTED to someone other than the actual author (ex. The Hitler Diaries) This is done to give the veneer of authority or value to a work that otherwise would be valued far less (let's face it the epistle of Bob, this guy who once heard of Peter disciple of Jesus, is a whole lot less authoritative then Simon Peter)
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13th December 2016, 11:02 AM | #603 |
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Last time he tried to argue that for there to be a forgery there needs to be an original I pointed him to the forged Hitler diaries as a counter example. Needless to say he completely ignored me.
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13th December 2016, 11:07 AM | #604 |
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13th December 2016, 11:17 AM | #605 |
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You're putting us on now, right?
Are you seriously claming you don't realize that a forgery can be a fake that's entirely made up and does not necessarily have to be based upon an original? For example, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a forgery that claims to be a Jewish document about how to take over the world. It was not written by Jews. It was never used by Jewish bankers. Its exact origins are a bit murky, but it appears to have been written at the behest of a Russian Czar with some of its content plagiarized from a satire of Napoleon III. There is no "original" of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" because it was made up. It was a forgery. Similarly, there is probably no "Original" 2 Peter written by the Saint himself or even dictated by him. Somebody wrote it, likely to push a particular theological agenda, and slapped Peter's name on it to give it fake authenticity. Another example involves Donald Trump. Here is a comment attributed to him:
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Are you beginning to understand? |
13th December 2016, 11:29 AM | #606 | |||
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Allow me to present a new forgery to better illustrate my point.
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Now that this forgery exits, Paul's logic asserts that this man:
had a black South African lover who called him her "Honkey Stud Muffin." |
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13th December 2016, 11:36 AM | #607 |
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You have made this elemental, sophomoric error before, and it was explained to you. I Peter is not a false copy of a true original; it is, in stead (as evidenced by factors both internal and external--see above) a complete fabrication; a fiction crafted to support a particular second century agenda. I was not (it could not have been) written by the "peter" to whom it is attributed.
It was, in fact, crafted to resemble the rest of the "epistles", and attributed to "Peter" to lend it verisimilitude...but it talks of situations that did not arise until years after "Peter" was said to be said to have been martyred. Consider a supposedly-authentic letter attributed to Samuel Clemens, discussing the dangers of letting your red-headed daughter play video games on her mobile device. This, of course, overlooks that the forgery does not use the same kind of language, or in the same way, as other "petrine" writings... |
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13th December 2016, 11:52 AM | #608 |
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Signs of the End Times - Part Two
I think what we'll see is Paul implicitly conceding by his definition of a forgery that Eugène Terre'Blanche was a Honkey Stud Muffin to his ebony skinned mistress. Oh, wait! Another version has surfaced!
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I can't say as I'm shocked. PB's anti-gay rhetoric always seemed a little "closety" to me. (Note to moderators. I am not actually making any accusations against Paul. I am using hyperbole and absurdism to highlight the severe flaws in his definition of a "forgery." I mean, for our Paul to be the Paul mentioned in the forgery above, our Paul would need to be ebony skinned, something his past rhetoric precludes unless he's been trolling all along.) Of course, the new forgery could mean absolutely nothing, IF it's possible for a forgery to be made up and merely attributed to someone without there being an original. This is a deep, dark, stinky rabbit hole we're going down people. |
13th December 2016, 01:29 PM | #609 |
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What is seen is that Peter has advanced in his writing skills spurred on by Paul’s letters, he has also had the help of Silas—(1Pe_5:12 With the help of Silas, whom I regard as a faithful brother, I have written to you briefly, encouraging you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand fast in it.
So his style of writing has changed to highlight his insight. There is the prophetic element that you are not aware of What has video games got to do with Peter’s letter??? |
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13th December 2016, 01:35 PM | #610 |
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No, it doesn't explain how he writes in a style that post-dates his own life. The issue is identifiable style, not simply greater sophistication.
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Yeah, right. |
13th December 2016, 02:10 PM | #611 |
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You (not surprisingly) misunderstand the use of "forgery" in this context. It would be clearer perhaps for those such as yourself not accustomed to the facts of the matter to use the blunt term "fake." The pseudo Peters and the deterocanonical Pauls are made up from whole cloth with a known person's name attached deliberately to attain an aura of authenticity which actually is not there. To reinforce, both I Peter and II Peter are fakes. Frauds. Perhaps you understand those terms. When biblical scholars (or when studying other ancient manuscripts) call a given text a forgery, in street language they are saying it is a fake.
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Quell surprise! There are no originals. We do not have a single original of any text, Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, that got accepted into or rejected from the various versions of the bible kicking around today. You DO realize there are different versions - noticeably different compilations of texts that is, not simply the usually trivial hair-splitting over a single word or phrase. (Let the record show - again that's what the libraries re for - there are any number of examples of the latter; actual wars & persecutions have often been based on them.) P.s.: If we did have originals of I Peter and II peter, they still would be fakes. Somewhat along these same lines, borrowing from Jay a little: We know for certain that the John of Patmos who wrote an apocalypse is certainly not the writer who penned the gospel attributed to John the Apostle. The Greek of the gospel attributed to John is smooth, flowing, often quasi-poetic Greek. John of Patmos' Greek is rough, often ungrammatical and even incorrect in word choice at some points; it's as if it were written by someone who did not have Greek as a first or educated language and they were simply not fully literate in that tongue. |
13th December 2016, 02:15 PM | #612 |
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Sorry for accidental duplicate post.
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13th December 2016, 02:31 PM | #613 |
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You do not have the tools to know that you know not of what you speak.
You don't read Koiné; your only exposure to the content of your "scriptures" is from translations...translations intentionally massaged to heighten the verisimilitude of authenticity. <snip of improperly quoted, improperly formatted, and indefensibly uncited "scripture"...which interpretation are you misquoting?> You do not have the tools to understand the depth of your lack of understanding. What you do not realize is that the sectarian interpretations with which you spoon-feed yourself are designed to conceal the clear signs that whoever wrote the "authentic" "petrine" "epistles" did not write "II Peter". 1. The style changes are not the stylistic maturations characteristic of an individual's growth in understanding. Instead, they are as fundamentally different in tone as are, for instance, the writings of Walter Winchell as compared to the writings of William Safire. 2. The "epistle" was specifically written, and intentionally included in the canon, to address a specific "heresy"--yet that "heresy" did not arise until well after "Peter" was said to be said to have been martyred. No "prophecy" involved, just an author trying to cloak his screed in the veil of "Peter's" authority. Do you know anything, anything at all, about Samuel Clemens? |
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13th December 2016, 03:43 PM | #614 |
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In other words you know quite literally NOTHING about why Saint Peter is not considered to be the author of 2 Peter and use your profound ignorance to make what may be the single most laughable defense of Petrine authorship ever written. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auth...trine_epistles
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13th December 2016, 03:46 PM | #615 |
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13th December 2016, 03:50 PM | #616 |
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Signs of the End Times - Part Two
Given the anachronistic content, Saying Saint Peter wrote 2 Peter is comparable to saying a 19th century writer could have written a warning about video games. It's simply not possible unless one is willing to employ time machines. The opponents referred to are quite clearly Gnostics, a movement that didn't arise until well after Peter's death. The influence assumed to be held by Paul's epistles also indicate the book was written well after Peter's death. It would be comparable to a letter surfacing that claims to be written by one of the early European colonists in South Africa that clearly references events from the post-Apartheid period. |
13th December 2016, 04:30 PM | #617 |
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13th December 2016, 05:38 PM | #618 |
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Remember, though, that PB is the poster who has said that he can't accept the theory of evolution because it's not simple enough for a second-grader to understand. So I don't think it's much of a stretch (or an insult) to say, based on that and the evidence of his other posts, that any challenges to his faith need to be kept as simple and childlike as the faith itself.
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13th December 2016, 06:10 PM | #619 |
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14th December 2016, 12:13 AM | #620 |
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Wrong again, I live by the truth that is revealed in the Scriptures, they make perfect sense in their harmonisation.
Perhaps it is you who would rather believe that the flood and other events are not true---I do admit that to believe that Yahweh is the Creator of all things can be daunting, and that the fact at death we do not cease to exist, but pass on to be with God, or spend eternity in utter darkness with only yourself as company. So to try and dismiss the Scriptures as false does not change the truth. |
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14th December 2016, 01:29 AM | #621 |
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14th December 2016, 04:25 AM | #622 |
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14th December 2016, 05:05 AM | #623 |
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14th December 2016, 06:00 AM | #624 |
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14th December 2016, 06:01 AM | #625 |
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14th December 2016, 06:08 AM | #626 |
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Seriously, how DID humanity go from four breeding pairs to multiple massive civilizations of millions of people each in under 200 years? There's a lot of Egyptian artifacts and structures that predate the flood. Why the HELL would some of Noah's descendants not only resume pyramid construction but pick up the exact same religion that had just been drowned out despite being just a few generations from a global genocide? I'm serious. If you're so divinely connected give me some serious answers. |
14th December 2016, 06:08 AM | #627 |
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14th December 2016, 06:11 AM | #628 |
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14th December 2016, 06:21 AM | #629 |
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His grandmother was a very naughty girl. And possibly alcohol was involved.
Come to that so was Mary, with her wild holy spirit stories. |
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14th December 2016, 06:42 AM | #630 |
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What you state about Egyptian artefacts is speculation—the only things that survived the flood was the fish and the ark and the people and animals that were on the ark.
Noah was a righteous man with whom the Creator could communicate with—so the present revelation of the Creator stems from Noah, as does all humanity. So there is no other religion to consider. There is only one Creator and he has revealed himself as the God of Israel. My divine connection is the knowledge I gain through the Scriptures, I understand the prophetic context, but have the same source of knowledge that is available to all. |
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14th December 2016, 06:46 AM | #631 |
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14th December 2016, 07:14 AM | #632 |
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Ever hear of the Great Pyramid of Giza? It predates the flood by a good 200 years, and it isn't anywhere near the oldest Egyptian structure or tomb we have. I'm not speculating about buildings and artifacts that predate Noah's flood, I'm taking about cold hard facts. There were a lot of other structures built long after the Creationist dates for the flood. And that's just Egypt.
A few pages back in this or the Noah's Ark thread the possible dates for the flood were discussed, as calculated from the Biblical text. The flood would have happened AFTER some of the Egyptian pyramids were already constructed. For the Bible to be accurate, the flood would have had to destroy the civilization that build the early pyramids, leave the pyramids intact, and then see some of Noah's descendants stumble across the pyramids and decide to inexplicably reboot the civilization and religion that had been wiped out just a few generations before. And that's just Egypt. Most Creationists date the flood to around 2350 BC. According to the Bible, we shouldn't have ANYTHING from before the 24th century that isn't a water damaged mess. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24th_century_BC NONE of the artifacts or structures listed here for example should exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23rd_century_BC But wait, there's more! The Gilgamesh epic can be dated as far back as the 22nd century BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/22nd_century_BC The Gilgamesh epic recounts an already ancient flood myth but STILL predates the alleged occurrence of Noah's flood by a few HUNDRED years. Except, based upon the timelines derived from the Bible, Noah's own descendants though it worthwhile to reboot several religions that were wiped out by the flood. Scriptures we've seen repeatedly you don't understand and can't be arsed to actually study or learn about. |
14th December 2016, 07:17 AM | #633 |
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Now that I've proven that claim to be a load of post digestion bovine feed, let's get back to the questions you're dodging:
I'm tempted to write a novelization of this rebooting of Egyptian culture and religion by Noah's descendants, but I already have enough writing projects on my plate. |
14th December 2016, 07:27 AM | #634 |
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In that case this must be very puzzling to you:
Mary's genealogy is nowhere listed in the Gospels. The story of the virgin birth is absent from Mark and John. Matthew and Luke have conflicting stories about it, but These gospels also contain (conflicting) genealogies of Jesus, through the ancestry of Joseph! While John twice calls Jesus "son of Joseph". |
14th December 2016, 08:12 AM | #635 |
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But you continually demonstrate that you gain less knowledge than your critics. You don't speak the original languages, and this has led you to many errors demonstrated right here. You don't know the history and culture. You have what basically amounts to a beginning Sunday School student's understanding of Judeo-Christian writings, yet upon this meager basis you loudly proclaim supremacy -- even to the extent of claiming a special role in the end times.
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At least half your arguments amount to crowing about your proposed personal superiority and claiming this trumps any argument your supposedly unenlightened critics would bring. Yet you seem to wonder why that's not a convincing argument. |
14th December 2016, 08:12 AM | #636 |
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I am not puzzled, I have read different explanations about the two genealogies, and as such do not know what is in fact the correct way to view them. Yet I am at peace with the answers, and am not deterred by the present situation.
What I understand is that Mary married to Joseph was considered to be the parents of Jesus. Mary would have had to been a direct descendant of David for Jesus to qualify as the son of David, the Messiah. Joseph in that sense would have adopted Jesus as his son on registration. So Jesus was legally the son of Joseph as he was also called the son of David. (Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, ) |
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14th December 2016, 08:15 AM | #637 |
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14th December 2016, 08:43 AM | #638 |
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Actually, You, personally, may think "the flood" did occur--reality disagrees with you. Not only is there no evidence, none, of "the flood" as it is related in your "scriptures" did happen, there is a wealth of evidence that it di not happen--that it could not have happened.
As far as "christ" "confirming" it, you have, at best second-hand hearsay of what "christ" is to be supposed to be said to have said. At best. The bible is not, cannot be, a verification of the soi dissant "truth" of the bible... |
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14th December 2016, 08:51 AM | #639 |
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Mary's genealogy is unknown. Matthew and Luke both give Jesus' genealogy back to David THROUGH JOSEPH, ignoring Mary. Neither Matthew or Luke are claiming that Jesus is divine, but are maintaining the idea of a Messiah that is fitted to rule in the physical realm by being the descendant of the Royal house of Judah.
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14th December 2016, 08:58 AM | #640 |
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This is a silly, sophomoric rejoinder; one that demonstrates a deep, deep ignorance of how actual archaeology is done.
The artifacts of Egyptian Civilization date form before the date you finally claimed for "the flood", and continue without interruption. There is no evidence in any Egyptian artifact of the kind of damage your "flood" would have done. Records of Egyptian civilizations continue through the date you finally claimed for "the flood" without interruption. Further, no physical evidence for your flood exists anywhere. Were you to visit Texas, I could take you to a column of sediment that shows 10,000 years of continuous human habitation, with no evidence of any catastrophic interruption. Dumbledore was a wise and mighty wizard who sacrificed himself to prevent a war, so the present peace and safety of all Muggles stems from him. The same 'god' "revealed itself" as the 'god' of Islam, as the 'god' of Catholics, as the 'god' of Southern Baptists, and so on. Your makey-uppy claim is no more real than any of those, or than the stories about Manu'u Legba and Huehuecoyotl. "Scriptures" you have demonstrated that you cannot even read, but must rely upon the translations and interpretations of others, leading you to make silly and sophomoric sectarian errors. (See, for instance, your errors about "II Peter"...) |
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