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Old 14th December 2016, 09:07 AM   #641
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am not puzzled, I have read different explanations about the two genealogies, and as such do not know what is in fact the correct way to view them. Yet I am at peace with the answers, and am not deterred by the present situation.
You are not "puzzled" because you simply choose to ignore the contradictions.

Tsk, Tsk.
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Old 14th December 2016, 09:16 AM   #642
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am not puzzled, I have read different explanations about the two genealogies, and as such do not know what is in fact the correct way to view them. Yet I am at peace with the answers, and am not deterred by the present situation.
Oh child, there are so many more contradictions in the Bible.

Where did Joseph and Mary live before the birth of Jesus?

Did Jesus, Mary, and Joseph go to Egypt or Nazareth?

Was Mary (the mother of Jesus) blessed?

This one even has a handy table listing the differences between them! (Spoiler, there are very few names in common, and they aren't in the same order)
What is the correct genealogy from David to Jesus?

You can find more here:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...a/by_name.html
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Old 14th December 2016, 09:26 AM   #643
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am not puzzled, I have read different explanations about the two genealogies, and as such do not know what is in fact the correct way to view them. Yet I am at peace with the answers, and am not deterred by the present situation
Please share with us these answers which have given you the peace. We can then assess whether they are valid or not. The fact that an idea gives you peace doesn't mean that it is true, I regret to say.
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Old 14th December 2016, 10:06 AM   #644
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so righteousness comes from adherence to the laws of the Creator, it cannot be attained from any other source.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



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Old 14th December 2016, 11:23 AM   #645
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I am not puzzled, I have read different explanations about the two genealogies, and as such do not know what is in fact the correct way to view them. Yet I am at peace with the answers, and am not deterred by the present situation.

What I understand is that Mary married to Joseph was considered to be the parents of Jesus. Mary would have had to been a direct descendant of David for Jesus to qualify as the son of David, the Messiah.

Joseph in that sense would have adopted Jesus as his son on registration. So Jesus was legally the son of Joseph as he was also called the son of David. (Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, )
This is typical- we know Jesus was the Messiah because he was a descendant of David, and even though nothing in the bible says Mary was a descendant, we know she must have been, because otherwise Jesus wouldn't be the Messiah.
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Old 14th December 2016, 11:33 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Not so righteousness comes from adherence to the laws of the Creator, it cannot be attained from any other source.
Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Oh SNAP!




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Old 14th December 2016, 12:26 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
This is typical- we know Jesus was the Messiah because he was a descendant of David, and even though nothing in the bible says Mary was a descendant, we know she must have been, because otherwise Jesus wouldn't be the Messiah.
In fact the gospels tell us that Mary was of the House of Aaron, and this was not of Davidic descent. Needless to say, Christian apologists tackle this problem with their accustomed ingenuity.
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Old 14th December 2016, 01:31 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
This is typical- we know Jesus was the Messiah because he was a descendant of David, and even though nothing in the bible says Mary was a descendant, we know she must have been, because otherwise Jesus wouldn't be the Messiah.
Ah you see the light!!!!
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Old 14th December 2016, 01:33 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Ah you see the light!!!!
The light of circular reasoning.
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Old 14th December 2016, 01:52 PM   #650
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Ah you see the light!!!!
How very sad that your delusion of "infallible, perfect understanding" cannot detect simple sarcasm...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/begging-the-question
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Old 14th December 2016, 03:27 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Ah you see the light!!!!
Can't seem to find the face-palm smiley, so this will have to do:
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Old 14th December 2016, 04:41 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Ah you see the light!!!!
Who needs logic when you have a perfect knowledge of scripture?
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Old 14th December 2016, 04:56 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
We also know that the flood did occur--the Christ confirms it!
Where did Jesus do his graduate work in a hard science and in which journals would he have published? A person living around 1 CE cannot be expected to understand geology or flow mechanics to the point that he could with authority say the flood occurred.
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Old 16th December 2016, 01:39 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Where did Jesus do his graduate work in a hard science and in which journals would he have published? A person living around 1 CE cannot be expected to understand geology or flow mechanics to the point that he could with authority say the flood occurred.
The Torah contains the record of the flood—the need to know how the Creator accomplished this must be seen in the light, that as Creator it would be easily accomplished, seeing that he designed and created all the universe in its vast array, in which this time we are beginning to see how immense it is, and that in six days---gets one thinking?
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Old 16th December 2016, 01:51 PM   #655
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Back to the thread topic of the "End Times," I'm often fascinated by the cultural impact of Armageddon theology. There's been some really great literature to come out of it for example. "Skinny Legs and All" is probably the best book with a sentient can of bean as a character I've ever read. I particularly like how the conch shell and the wand, two ancient magical artifacts, upon learning about the Biblical version of Solomon's life, respond with a dumbfounded, "Solomon was considered wise?"

"Good Omens" is a lot of fun, especially when it comes to the ineptitude of the "villains" leading to a rather unimpressive Antichrist.

Then there's the fact that for some reason, there's a perpetual undercurrent of Christians who are obsessed with Jews having sex.

What are your favorite books about the End of the World? (No fair answering Paul, we already know YOUR choice)
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Old 16th December 2016, 01:58 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Torah contains the record of the flood—
The Torah contains an allegation of a flood.

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...Creator it would be easily accomplished, seeing that he designed and created all the universe in its vast array, in which this time we are beginning to see how immense it is, and that in six days---gets one thinking?
It hasn't gotten you thinking; it has stopped you from thinking. You take a very gullible approach to the Bible, believing every word of your favorite translation and largely ignoring what we can know about the Bible. Your book tells the story of a flood that is preposterous on its face. The thinking person tries to determine whether it really happened. Knowing what we know about floods, we look for the evidence that would inevitably have arisen from such an event. We find none. Further, when we look at the literary history of the people who wrote that book, we see all kinds of flood myths that could have served as a prototype. Thus the thinking man concludes that the story is both borrowed and embellished.

The non-thinking man just sweeps his denial under a carpet of vacuous glitter as you have done. You have no answer for why the evidence doesn't match your beliefs. You just spew the same robotic platitudes as every other zealot and pretend it's all band-aided up. You allude to the omnipotence of God. Are you suggested God just magically erased all the evidence of the flood and patched things up again as if nothing had happened? Is that your answer?

As to the vastness of the universe, I see no connection between that and the need for some almighty creator. The universe is what it is. Be as gob-smacked as you like about it, but there's no rule that says a natural universe has to be small and boring.
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Old 16th December 2016, 02:10 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Torah contains the record of the flood—the need to know how the Creator accomplished this must be seen in the light, that as Creator it would be easily accomplished, seeing that he designed and created all the universe in its vast array, in which this time we are beginning to see how immense it is, and that in six days---gets one thinking?


Gets one to thinking that magical thinking is the solution to all the hard questions?
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Old 16th December 2016, 02:15 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Torah contains the record of the flood—the need to know how the Creator accomplished this must be seen in the light, that as Creator it would be easily accomplished, seeing that he designed and created all the universe in its vast array, in which this time we are beginning to see how immense it is, and that in six days---gets one thinking?
It doesn't matter where the story is written if there is no physical evidence to match the account.
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Old 16th December 2016, 02:15 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Gets one to thinking that magical thinking is the solution to all the hard questions?
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Old 16th December 2016, 03:21 PM   #660
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
The Torah [repeats, in general] the [anecdote] of the flood—
Said anecdote features Gilgamesh and predates anything in the Torah by centuries. Also coming from generally the same time and region is Deucalion; he, also, is reputed to have saved humanity from a deluge. Taking a broader view of the matter, there are some 130 myths from around the globe featuring a world-wide deluge/catastrophe where a very few "saved" all of humanity. The difficulty with those is they do not agree on time, place, scope, motive or results. And, you guessed it, there is not a shred of evidence for any of them.

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[T]he need to know how the Creator accomplished this must be seen in the light, that as Creator it would be easily accomplished, seeing that he designed and created all the universe in its vast array,...
For which supernaturally-caused/directed creation we have not the slightest shred of evidence.
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Old 18th December 2016, 01:19 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Said anecdote features Gilgamesh and predates anything in the Torah by centuries. Also coming from generally the same time and region is Deucalion; he, also, is reputed to have saved humanity from a deluge. Taking a broader view of the matter, there are some 130 myths from around the globe featuring a world-wide deluge/catastrophe where a very few "saved" all of humanity. The difficulty with those is they do not agree on time, place, scope, motive or results. And, you guessed it, there is not a shred of evidence for any of them.


For which supernaturally-caused/directed creation we have not the slightest shred of evidence.
There is a lot of proof to those who have an open mind to appreciate that creation is full of design showing how great the Creators ability is.------( Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

To be blind to this is, shows how man has lost his direction---there is no other way to explain the creation.

So the END time prophecy is to demonstrate the ability of the Creator, in that the sun and moon will be used to show that the Creator has the ability to change the normal function of the world.

(Luk_21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.)
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Old 18th December 2016, 01:52 AM   #662
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Lots of things that appear obvious turned out not to be true - the earth is not flat, the sun does not go around the earth, the complexity of living things is not the result of deliberate design. If you spend a little time reading about the great scientific discoveries of the last couple of centuries you quickly learn that common sense/intuition has proved to be a very poor guide to the true nature of the world. If you choose not to do that then you will simply spend your life believing things which aren't true. I pity you, Paul Bethke, because you will never know the truth. You will go to your death wondering why the world is still continuing unperturbed, just as the millions of others who were convinced the world would end in their lifetime have done for thousands of years.
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Old 18th December 2016, 02:33 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So the END time prophecy is to demonstrate the ability of the Creator, in that the sun and moon will be used to show that the Creator has the ability to change the normal function of the world.

(Luk_21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.)
Not only that: Mark's version of the prophecy, at 13:25, tells us that
the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
As I have done before I will ask again: given that the Sun, a typical star, is a million times bigger than the Earth, a typical planet, how can stars "fall" to the ground? Not even the Creator can make them fall to the ground. That "prophecy" was thought up by people who had no idea what the lights they saw up in the sky really were. These uninformed people were at the childish "twinkle twinkle" stage of understanding, which unfortunately you seem to have remained in.
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Old 18th December 2016, 02:40 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Not only that: Mark's version of the prophecy, at 13:25, tells us that
the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.
As I have done before I will ask again: given that the Sun, a typical star, is a million times bigger than the Earth, a typical planet, how can stars "fall" to the ground? Not even the Creator can make them fall to the ground. That "prophecy" was thought up by people who had no idea what the lights they saw up in the sky really were. These uninformed people were at the childish "twinkle twinkle" stage of understanding, which unfortunately you seem to have remained in.
Well two hundred years ago the people of that day did not know what the people of today know, so those people of yesterday could only explain it in the way they understood things—that does not change the prophecy---today we will see stars disappearing overnight. Venus, Mars and all the others will simply disappear---now you see them—now you don’t!!

That will make you think!!
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Old 18th December 2016, 02:53 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well two hundred years ago the people of that day did not know what the people of today know, so those people of yesterday could only explain it in the way they understood things—that does not change the prophecy---today we will see stars disappearing overnight. Venus, Mars and all the others will simply disappear---now you see them—now you don’t!!

That will make you think!!
Venus and Mars aren't stars. They're "Earths". If I may adapt the words of your own post: "Fundamentalist religious people don't know what informed people of today know, so those people of ignorance can only explain it in the way they misunderstand things."
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Old 18th December 2016, 03:38 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Venus and Mars aren't stars.
The depth of the ignorance which is being proudly displayed here is astonishing. One really does find oneself wondering if the OP ever attended school at all.
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Old 18th December 2016, 06:13 AM   #667
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Signs of the End Times - Part Two

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is a lot of proof to those who have an open mind to appreciate that creation is full of design showing how great the Creators ability is.------( Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.



To be blind to this is, shows how man has lost his direction---there is no other way to explain the creation.



So the END time prophecy is to demonstrate the ability of the Creator, in that the sun and moon will be used to show that the Creator has the ability to change the normal function of the world.



(Luk_21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.)


None of that is actually a response to the post you quoted.

The Gilgamesh epic contains a flood narrative stunningly similar to Noah's flood yet the story can be dated to a good 400 to 500 years BEFORE Noah's flood supposedly occurred.

Either the Jews absorbed an existing, older legend, or God plagiarized his plan from one of the pagan cultures he intended to wipe out. Which is it Paul?

We already have an Ark thread Paul. We need to keep this Noah / Magic wood stuff there.

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Old 18th December 2016, 06:48 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well two hundred years ago the people of that day did not know what the people of today know, so those people of yesterday could only explain it in the way they understood things—that does not change the prophecy---today we will see stars disappearing overnight. Venus, Mars and all the others will simply disappear---now you see them—now you don’t!!

That will make you think!!
So you are now saying that the people who wrote the Bible did not have access to "divinely" inspired information?
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Old 18th December 2016, 09:04 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is a lot of proof to those who have an open mind to appreciate that creation is full of design showing how great the Creators ability is.------( Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

To be blind to this is, shows how man has lost his direction---there is no other way to explain the creation.

So the END time prophecy is to demonstrate the ability of the Creator, in that the sun and moon will be used to show that the Creator has the ability to change the normal function of the world.

(Luk_21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.)
What total nonsense.

You are simply doing what you are always doing: you want people to accept your fairy stories as truth without providing anymore than additional fairy stories.

One should expect better logic from an immortal.
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Old 18th December 2016, 09:51 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
There is a lot of proof to those who have an open mind to appreciate that creation is full of design...
No there isn't. There is a bunch of religious zealots frantically trying to make their fairy tales seem more like science, as a reaction to an increasingly secular world. It's the only way they can maintain the power they previously held over the population.

The universe is awesome. I've spent my life learning how it works and using that understanding to help people lead better lives here on Earth. I'm not swayed by appeals to some magical wizard who supposedly waved the wand and created it all. I'm especially unswayed by people invoking that myth and trying to frighten me into "repenting" and following them as the self-proclaimed oracles of that wizard.

Quote:
To be blind to this is, shows how man has lost his direction---there is no other way to explain the creation.
Mankind Humankind has abandoned the direction of superstitions and magic, often used to oppress and control people. And I say good riddance. You don't want that to go away because you see it as your path to secular power, or at least license to be racist and sexist. Sorry, not interested. There's a perfectly good explanation for the universe, it it isn't "a wizard did it."

Quote:
So the END time prophecy is to demonstrate the ability of the Creator, in that the sun and moon will be used to show that the Creator has the ability to change the normal function of the world.
Just like he did with the Flood. Oh, whoops, that's right, he didn't. Religious people like to tell stories of the world going topsy-turvy. And before there was a systematic way of exploring and analyzing the universe, that might have had some effect. Now that people don't believe in that supernatural nonsense anymore, it's a harder sell. Thence "Creation science." It's just rebranded religion.
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Old 18th December 2016, 09:58 AM   #671
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well two hundred years ago the people of that day did not know what the people of today know, so those people of yesterday could only explain it in the way they understood things—
Bzzzzt. You tried to explain away the anachronisms in the epistles attributed Peter by saying the author could just prophetically see into the future and write convincingly in that style and about things that would arise during those later times. Now faced with a different problem you back away from that entirely and admit that the authors had to be limited to their ordinary knowledge. I tend to believe the latter is true, but you seem to want to believe both contradictorily while having no authority for the former: it's just speculation you made up to plug a hole in your beliefs.

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today we will see stars disappearing overnight. Venus, Mars and all the others will simply disappear---now you see them—now you don’t!!
"Wizard did it."

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That will make you think!!
It makes me think right now. It makes me think that the Bible is indeed a body of writings produced by people thousands of years ago with limited knowledge and understanding, borrowing heavily from their already existing literary tradition. And I can point to quite a number of scholars who would agree. In Sunday School I supposed children are taught that God is essentially just a big wizard in the sky who can just wave the wand and make things happen. Your problem is trying to make that simplistic model fit a world of modern adults.

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Old 19th December 2016, 08:41 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Bzzzzt. You tried to explain away the anachronisms in the epistles attributed Peter by saying the author could just prophetically see into the future and write convincingly in that style and about things that would arise during those later times. Now faced with a different problem you back away from that entirely and admit that the authors had to be limited to their ordinary knowledge. I tend to believe the latter is true, but you seem to want to believe both contradictorily while having no authority for the former: it's just speculation you made up to plug a hole in your beliefs.
It is not the ability to see into the future, rather the insight as to see that what the Creator stated will take place—so today we see the events that have not yet taken place are still in the proses of fulfilment. So yes people did not have the knowledge that is available today---but the Kingdom of God is still the focal point.

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"Wizard did it."
Well today this is a very plausible explanation, taking into account the ability of the Creator!!

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It makes me think right now.
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It makes me think that the Bible is indeed a body of writings produced by people thousands of years ago with limited knowledge and understanding, borrowing heavily from their already existing literary tradition. And I can point to quite a number of scholars who would agree. In Sunday School I supposed children are taught that God is essentially just a big wizard in the sky who can just wave the wand and make things happen. Your problem is trying to make that simplistic model fit a world of modern adults.
But that is what it is—Gods speaks and it is so---his creative word.( Gen 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. )

(Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

So yes it is as simple as you put it—not a wand, just his word---I am glad that it makes you think.
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Old 19th December 2016, 09:19 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It is not the ability to see into the future, rather the insight...
That doesn't address the contradiction in your argument.

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Well today this is a very plausible explanation, taking into account the ability of the Creator!!
When I grew up I quit believing in wizards, elves, gnomes, goblins, and other mythical creatures. And I certainly don't accept any of them as a plausible explanation for reconciling pre-rational cosmology with fact.

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So yes it is as simple as you put it—not a wand, just his word---I am glad that it makes you think.
That didn't address anything in the paragraph you quoted. Now please address my actual arguments with something more than knee-jerk Bible quotes.
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Old 19th December 2016, 09:28 AM   #674
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But that is what it is—Gods speaks and it is so---his creative word.( Gen 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. )



(Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."



So yes it is as simple as you put it—not a wand, just his word---I am glad that it makes you think.

Why are the words attributed to Yahweh more authoritative then any of the words attributed to any other deity? Every religion has a creation story.
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Old 19th December 2016, 09:35 AM   #675
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It is not the ability to see into the future, rather the insight as to see that what the Creator stated will take place—so today we see the events that have not yet taken place are still in the proses(sic) of fulfilment(sic). So yes people did not have the knowledge that is available today---but the Kingdom of God is still the focal point.
Insight that you have proven, repeatedly, you do not have.

Why do you persist in prattling about matters you do not comprehend? Do you have a commission from God to entertain us? You clearly have no calling to evangelism; if you did, God would have granted you a modicum of competence in the field.

Your conduct is more in keeping with a king's jester than a man of faith. Are we, on this forum, so elevated in God's design that he granted us a personal jester to dance for our amusement?

I would like to suggest you acquire a bit of education on religion. You can start with a book about the Messiah that I think is just far enough beyond your current theological education level to be both accessible and educational.


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Old 19th December 2016, 11:57 AM   #676
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
... in keeping with a king's jester...qimg]http://i.imgur.com/h20t42h.jpg[/url]
The court jester's job was to jog the King's thinking, show the unexpected side of the matter, say the non-politically correct thing others in the court might well be thinking but dare not say; he was more a satirist than a comedian. And PB is neither of those.
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Old 19th December 2016, 12:33 PM   #677
halleyscomet
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
The court jester's job was to jog the King's thinking, show the unexpected side of the matter, say the non-politically correct thing others in the court might well be thinking but dare not say; he was more a satirist than a comedian. And PB is neither of those.
This is very true. Paul Bethke is no jester. Unfortunately, I cannot, at this moment, formulate a more accurate comparison without potentially running afoul of the site's user agreement.
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Old 19th December 2016, 02:10 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
The court jester's job was to jog the King's thinking, show the unexpected side of the matter, say the non-politically correct thing others in the court might well be thinking but dare not say; he was more a satirist than a comedian. And PB is neither of those.
Well said. Being a "poor fool", a jester could speak the truth about anyone or anything without giving insult. A critical function indeed.

Perhaps this is the reason why the Fool is a major Tarot card.

IIRC, I saw a comment (I believe it was in reference to King Lear) that a jester was probably the most intelligent person in the court.
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Old 19th December 2016, 02:12 PM   #679
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
This is very true. Paul Bethke is no jester. Unfortunately, I cannot, at this moment, formulate a more accurate comparison without potentially running afoul of the site's user agreement.
Paul Brethke obviously lacks a critical requirement: a sense of humor.
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Old 19th December 2016, 02:16 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Why are the words attributed to Yahweh more authoritative then any of the words attributed to any other deity? Every religion has a creation story.
Or me? I guarantee I make more sense and am far more believable than any deity. For the life of me I can not understand for a moment why anyone educated today with a sound mind continues to believe this nonsense.

It's a mountain of circular reasoning that is used to support outrageous and absurd claims that demands obedience to an irrational and silly guidelines.

The God of the Bible is a silly, petty jerk who theoretically gave us the ability to think and then demands on the penalty of eternal torture that we don't. What kind of sick joke is that?
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