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2nd November 2016, 04:46 AM | #121 |
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Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
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2nd November 2016, 04:57 AM | #122 |
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Then why allow him to divorce at all? The point of divorce is to dissolve a failed marriage so that someone can pursue other paths, including a new marriage. Wouldn't God rather that people be in happy couples?
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2nd November 2016, 04:58 AM | #123 |
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2nd November 2016, 04:59 AM | #124 |
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2nd November 2016, 05:50 AM | #125 |
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Ah, THAT'S how you get around your earlier claim that rape victims must marry their rapists. You must have realized what an abominable position that was to take, or made it around people in real life who were horrified.
It's too bad you have to flat out lie about what the verse is about in order to and make that claim. The passage is about a rape victim being forced to marry her rapist if he pays the silver. There are MULTIPLE people in this thread with the research skills and knowledge of Hebrew needed to delve back into the original Hebrew to demonstrate that, as well as to look at the passage in context. If the verse's context comes into play, you can bet your bottom dollar that your arguments about the context of Peter's dream of the net meaning the verse is about gentiles and not pork and shellfish is going to come up as a means of highlighting the fact that you're perfectly happy to use context when it suits your arguments. You can venture down this absurd apologetic path if you want Peter, but please keep in mind, you're not going to be able to gaslight your way out of the interpretations of the passage you advocated before nor are you going to convince anyone that your ******** excuses are a better indication of what the text's authors meant than the original Hebrew. |
2nd November 2016, 06:09 AM | #126 |
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It's almost as if is knowledge of the Bible is regressing. He's completely forgotten, or is deliberately ignoring the fact that, the passage gives rapists a "get out of stoning free" card if they cough up enough silver to marry the virgin they raped.
He claims to have fond memories of South Africa's apartheid, which was the law from 1948 to 1994. I don't recall him telling us his actual age, but my guess based upon his cultural claims is that he's probably somewhere between 40 and 60, possibly a bit older. This puts him in range for age related dementia or Alzheimer's to start setting in. He claims to have read the entire Bible, yet somehow missed or forgot about the destruction pf Solomon's temple. Now a man who claims his understanding of the Bible is "infallible" is completely changing his interpretation of a verse that was the basis for some very heated discussion in the previous version of this thread. I'm starting to suspect he may not be trying to gaslight us about his past claims, but has sincerely and honesty forgotten them. |
2nd November 2016, 06:11 AM | #127 |
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That reasoning is asinine. Why not look at the words of the passage - which is in a chapter discussing rape - and tell us what you think?
The word taken by translators as indicating rape, rather than mere absence of parental approval, is Strong's Concordance word 8610 taphas תָּפַשׂ. Its occurrences in the Tanakh may be examined here. It is glossed in English as "seized". Now, look at the list of contexts in which that word is found, and tell me whether it refers to forceful sexual violation of a virgin, or to copulation with her consent, but not that of her parents. |
2nd November 2016, 06:17 AM | #128 |
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Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
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2nd November 2016, 06:19 AM | #129 |
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Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
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2nd November 2016, 06:24 AM | #130 |
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First, if Yahweh stopped the planet rotating, the resulting winds would destroy pretty much everything on the planet's surface.
Second, the effects of this event would have been visible world wide - and no one else recorded the stopping of the sun in the sky for a whole day (or noted the increased night). The only way the story works is if the sun is a point light source that circles the Earth. In other words - you need to establish that the first demonstration happened. the evidence would suggest that Judges is not an accurate source of historical fact.
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We've pointed the lack of substantiation to Paul before, but apparently he needs to be told again by someone different. |
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2nd November 2016, 06:26 AM | #131 |
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2nd November 2016, 06:27 AM | #132 |
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You're wrong. The verse specifies a loophole whereby a rapist who raped a virgin can escape execution by paying the victim's father and marrying her. He's further forbidden from divorcing her. Repeating the same irrational, wishful, rainbows and unicorns whitewashing of the verse as you're doing doesn't make it so. Why did you change your mind about the meaning of the verse? What prompted you to change your mind? Why are you repeating such an exceptionally absurd interpretation of the verse when the context and language makes it clear you're wrong? |
2nd November 2016, 06:39 AM | #133 | ||
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It is the same in this section--Exo 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife.
Exo 22:17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.
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Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
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2nd November 2016, 06:50 AM | #134 |
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Not of he pays the girl's father compensation for the loss of his daughter's virginity. The point that is attempted to be made here is that the sexual morality of the Torah is to a large extent the barbarism characteristic of Early Iron Age pastoral tribes and the inhabitants of ancient walled mountain towns and fortresses ruled by predatory warlords.
"Regardless" of what, anyway? The plain meaning of words used in the passage? Is that how you approach the infallible Word of God?? And you have the effrontery to threaten other people with eternal damnation? Look to your own righteousness rather than that of others, is my advice to you. |
2nd November 2016, 06:52 AM | #135 |
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But then I am referring to maybe a greater sign, when the sun went backwards ten hours--Isaiah_38:8 I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.'" So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.
Each step represented one hour, so now this will be something to get the attention of the world---this type of sign will definitely point to YHVH being the Creator---not to speak about the stars falling! Seeing YHVH is the Creator, it should be reasonable for him to do such things, don’t you think so? So if people want proof there is no alternative—so all this is reserved for the END times--, are you not fortunate to be living in such a time as this? |
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2nd November 2016, 06:57 AM | #136 |
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Mr. Bethke:
You have stated outrigtht that you cannot read the sources; you have bragged that you do not need to read the sources; you have demonstrated that your "infallible" "perfect understanding" is based upon version-shopped interpretations of others' translations. (n what way is accetping what yuo say about yourself, and the evidence of your routine approach to your "scriptures", "unenlightened"? It is, in fact, you who are in thrall to superstition. They also ridiculed Bozo the Clown and Lucille Ball; who, unlike Noah, actually existed. An "event" for which there is no evidence at all; in fact there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that it could not have happened. Now, this is an interesting bit of dishonesty. You avoided my question, which was this:
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1. There's that conflict between "infallibility" and grammar, again... 2. You are the embodiment of the mattean "blind guide", made flesh and bumping into things among us. 3. WHICH "phenomena"? Be specific. Might you be so kind as to explain, from your "perfect understanding", what you, personally, think this sentence fragment means? There's a lad... Going to wait until something happens, then claim that as your "prediction"? Tsk, tsk. |
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2nd November 2016, 06:58 AM | #137 |
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Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
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2nd November 2016, 07:01 AM | #138 |
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The "Fludde", as "recorded", is a blatant falsehood. It could not have happened the way your scriptures claim it happened, without leaving evidence (which it did not).
The "Exodus", as "recorded", is a blatant falsehood. It could not have happened the way your scriptures claim it happened, without leaving evidence (which it did not). The "Conquest of Canaan", as "recorded", is a blatant falsehood. It could not have happened the way your scriptures claim it happened, without leaving evidence (which it did not). You are welcome to provide the missing evidence to the contrary. |
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2nd November 2016, 07:06 AM | #139 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd November 2016, 07:10 AM | #140 |
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2nd November 2016, 07:15 AM | #141 |
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What has Deut 21:18-21 to do with raping virgins?
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: 19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; 20 and they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. 21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.This is not only irrelevant but preposterous. Are you amusing yourself at our expense, with these ludicrous exegeses of the Word of God, that you have been indulging in? |
2nd November 2016, 07:16 AM | #142 |
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No predictions must be made beforehand, not after---it is like this:- Isa_42:9 See, the former things have taken place, and new things I declare; before they spring into being I announce them to you.
Why do you lie—I may not be able to read the different languages in the Scriptures, but there is sufficient commentaries on them which give an adequate understanding of the Scriptures. The NIV is an excellent translation despite a few sections –so my knowledge of the will of God is excellent, understanding from the translations what the original languages portrayed. So every person will be judged by the Ten Commands that includes you. You would not know the rotation of the earth if you were not told. It is not something you worked out your self—so it is pride to take credit for something you were told. |
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2nd November 2016, 07:17 AM | #143 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd November 2016, 07:18 AM | #144 |
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Did you INTENTIONALLY edit my post to make it look like the Exodus verses were the ones I was talking about or did you just screw up in your use of the quote function?
This is the passage you're trying to claims has NOTHING to do with rape:
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You're relying heavily upon the fact that a lot of translations are a bit euphemistic about the description of rape. Dude, that's a verse about executing rebellious children.
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2nd November 2016, 07:21 AM | #145 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd November 2016, 07:21 AM | #146 |
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2nd November 2016, 07:22 AM | #147 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd November 2016, 07:26 AM | #148 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd November 2016, 07:29 AM | #149 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd November 2016, 07:30 AM | #150 |
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2nd November 2016, 07:32 AM | #151 |
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That depends upon WHICH version of the Ten Commandments he's using:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments |
2nd November 2016, 07:33 AM | #152 |
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By the way, this passage has a word in common with the one previously discussed. The bolded expression above is our old friend - תָּפַשׂ taphas "seize": Strong's 8610. Now here it refers to someone being taken hold of to be executed by stoning.
So tell us if you think, when used to describe a sexual encounter, it refers to consent or rape. |
2nd November 2016, 07:41 AM | #153 |
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I think he's just trying to distract us from his catastrophic failure to grok that Jesus was in the SECOND temple, not Solomon's temple. I'll bet cut-and-paste cherry picking like this works great for him in real life, where people don't have the chance to look up the verses before he moves on to the next nonsense claim.
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2nd November 2016, 07:43 AM | #154 |
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No, Mosaic Law gives the rapist the opportunity to escape execution in this set of circumstances:
a. The rape takes place in the countryside (presumably to give reasonable doubt to the victim's claim to have called out and no one came to her aid); b. The rapist is able to pay Daddy 50 shekels of silver for the valuable property that he damaged; and c. The rapist takes possession of the property he damaged; d. The rapist accepts that he is not allowed to dispose of this property as he sees fit. |
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2nd November 2016, 07:48 AM | #155 |
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Again, no other literate society on this planet noticed this event - none. And none of the ones that relied on oral histories did either.
If such an event occurred (the sudden reversal of the rotation of the earth) it would have had devastating consequences on everything on the planet's surface. The events in Isaiah are fiction. Didn't happen. |
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2nd November 2016, 07:49 AM | #156 |
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2nd November 2016, 07:52 AM | #157 |
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Here, then, is your golden opportunity:
Be specific about the "signs" you are predicting. This could be fun. Mr. Bethke, I will accept your apology. It is, in fact, you, yourself, who has made it clear that you not only cannot read the texts, making you dependent upon the interpretations of others' translations, you floccinaucinilihilipilificate that ability, holding it in no regard. You boast that your "infallible" "perfect understanding" is based upon commentaries and translations, from versions among which you cherry-pick. And to think that "You will not bear false witness" is among what you try to call "the Ten Words"...tsk, tsk. Your "infallibility" continues to struggle with grammar, dunnit? As to "sufficient understanding", just look at the problem you are having because you wish the text said something it manifestly does not, just above, with your decision to interpolate the concept of "consent" where it is not to be found. Tsk, tsk. ...which is why you had to resort to the Israel Bible to support what you wanted a passage to say (what you wished it said), and are helpless to explain your problem with misusing (for instance) "HASHEM[sic]" from that source. Oh, my. See "bearing false witness", above. I expect your apology. Odd. Why do you believe that "ƴ ͤ Fludde" happened, if not that you think you were told it did? Why do you believe that the "Conquest of Canaan" happened, if not that you think you were told it did? Why do you believe that the "Exodus" happened, if not that you think you were told it did? Why do you keep telling people things, if not in thee hopes that you will be believed? BTW: you are still avoiding the question: Do you, personally, think the sun goes around the earth, or is it the other way 'round? |
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2nd November 2016, 07:54 AM | #158 |
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Deuteronomy 22:28 in multiple translations:
http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/22-28.htm
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While shakab does not ALWAYS refer to rape, the greater context of the verse makes it clear what is being discussed: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...Deuteronomy+22
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Now, I will point out that modern apologists argue that this passages does not condone rape, but offers a regrettable legal recourse for cases where it happens. Paul Bethke is, as far as I can tell, alone in the world in is peculiar interpretation of the passage. |
2nd November 2016, 07:56 AM | #159 |
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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2nd November 2016, 07:59 AM | #160 |
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Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near. |
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