IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 14th March 2017, 06:44 AM   #2241
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well then you have chosen to spend eternity in hell!!
Well, …

Considering that if you are correct about your God, then that would mean that the only way for one to get into heaven would be for one to be some sort of totally worthless God sycophant who never questions the logic of your God and/or questions the actions of your God.

Otherwise, one will be going to hell.

As for me, if those were my only two choices, then I would choose hell. After all, even if I made it to heaven, then I am sure that God would soon realize that he made a terrible mistake and that God would send me off to hell in short order since I could not abide a God who is so incredibly powerful, and yet who is so incredibly stupid and brutal.

Therefore, it would save both of us some trouble if I were sent off to hell right straight away.
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 07:23 AM   #2242
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,213
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It is recorded in the Bible and you have no evidence that it did not occur.
MENTIONED in the bible; not supported by a single credible source, particularly those most directly affected by the supposed event*.

*This applies to any number of "events" MENTIONED in the bible but having not a shred of credible evidence.

(And having evidence of a non-occurrence would be proof of a negative, a rather tricky bit of business.)

Last edited by Peregrinus; 14th March 2017 at 07:24 AM.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:07 AM   #2243
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It is recorded in the Bible and you have no evidence that it did not occur.

It is recorded in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" and you have no evidence that it did not occur.

Go ahead. Prove the events in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" DIDN'T happen, as your asking us to do with Bible stories. You can't. You can point to the lack of evidence to support the claim that the events in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" never happened, but the book itself contains explanations for why you, a Muggle, would not have that evidence.

I would say that the Harry Potter series is EASIER to defend as a literal truth than the Bible largely because the Bible makes a great many claims that are contradicted by multiple historical sources.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:10 AM   #2244
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
Signs of the End Times - Part Two

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So are you not looking forward to the day when there will be peace on this earth?

Let's not mince words. You're talking about the survivors of a bloody, violent, brutal genocidal religious war living lives of obedient terror under the rule of the victors.

Congratulations. You're advocating a Jesus-flavored version of what DAESH is trying to do. Convert to Islam and you can get exactly what you want, right down to death before divorce and keeping kosher.

Last edited by halleyscomet; 14th March 2017 at 08:12 AM.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:26 AM   #2245
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Let's not mince words. You're talking about the survivors of a bloody, violent, brutal genocidal religious war living lives of obedient terror under the rule of the victors.

Congratulations. You're advocating a Jesus-flavored version of what DAESH is trying to do. Convert to Islam and you can get exactly what you want, right down to death before divorce and keeping kosher.
Your idea of peace is positively skewed.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:27 AM   #2246
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
It is recorded in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" and you have no evidence that it did not occur.

Go ahead. Prove the events in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" DIDN'T happen, as your asking us to do with Bible stories. You can't. You can point to the lack of evidence to support the claim that the events in "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" never happened, but the book itself contains explanations for why you, a Muggle, would not have that evidence.

I would say that the Harry Potter series is EASIER to defend as a literal truth than the Bible largely because the Bible makes a great many claims that are contradicted by multiple historical sources.
OFF on a tangent again.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:28 AM   #2247
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
MENTIONED in the bible; not supported by a single credible source, particularly those most directly affected by the supposed event*.

*This applies to any number of "events" MENTIONED in the bible but having not a shred of credible evidence.

(And having evidence of a non-occurrence would be proof of a negative, a rather tricky bit of business.)
So it is said, but not proven!
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:31 AM   #2248
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Let's not mince words. You're talking about the survivors of a bloody, violent, brutal genocidal religious war living lives of obedient terror under the rule of the victors.
Sounds like a party! And given descriptions of past behavior, we have no assurance that Yahweh will spare the innocent or the righteous. The end-times stories are meant to scare people into obedience: all you have to do is obey those who claim to speak for Yahweh and he will spare you at the last day. But Bethke can't reconcile that promise with past behavior.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:34 AM   #2249
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
OFF on a tangent again.
No, a rebuttal. You insinuate that just because an event is described in a book, it must necessarily have happened. He gave you an example of events recorded in books that likely did not happen. You insinuate that someone who disbelieves that something occurred has the burden to prove it did not occur. He's asking you to validate that argument by proving that an event recorded in a book did not occur, just as you expect others to do in rebutting you.

But you probably realize this, which is why you're desperately trying to sweep the rebuttal under the carpet.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:35 AM   #2250
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Your idea of peace is positively skewed.
That's not his idea of peace. That's his idea of the aftermath of the events you describe. You're the one who insists, despite all evidence to the contrary, that the aftermath will be peaceful. When has a bloody genocide ever resulted in a platonic peace?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:39 AM   #2251
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, …

Considering that if you are correct about your God, then that would mean that the only way for one to get into heaven would be for one to be some sort of totally worthless God sycophant who never questions the logic of your God and/or questions the actions of your God.

Otherwise, one will be going to hell.

As for me, if those were my only two choices, then I would choose hell. After all, even if I made it to heaven, then I am sure that God would soon realize that he made a terrible mistake and that God would send me off to hell in short order since I could not abide a God who is so incredibly powerful, and yet who is so incredibly stupid and brutal.

Therefore, it would save both of us some trouble if I were sent off to hell right straight away.
Is it not man that Yahweh relied on that deviated from the injunction that God gave.
I have analysed all that is about Yahweh and found that God is holy and is justified by his righteous actions.

As I have stated on a number of times, Yahweh relies on man, and if man deviates from the mandate, then God is powerless until he can find another person.

This may sound strange, but in the END God will find a person who understands his will and is prepared to carry out the mandate.

Isa 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:50 AM   #2252
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I have stated on a number of times, Yahweh relies on man, and if man deviates from the mandate, then God is powerless until he can find another person.
That's one useless deity you have there.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 08:57 AM   #2253
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: The great American West
Posts: 24,911
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
I have analysed all that is about Yahweh and found that God is holy and is justified by his righteous actions.
Don't be silly. You haven't done any such thing. You've ignored all the problems with Yahweh as an unjust, vengeful god and deluded yourself into thinking you've proven your point.

Quote:
As I have stated on a number of times, Yahweh relies on man, and if man deviates from the mandate, then God is powerless until he can find another person.
Yes, you've stated that many times. But when it's pointed out that a necessary consequent of this claim is that man is thus more powerful than Yahweh, you can't reconcile it.

Quote:
This may sound strange, but in the END God will find a person who understands his will and is prepared to carry out the mandate.
Do you claim that person is you?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 09:35 AM   #2254
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
As I have stated on a number of times, Yahweh relies on man, and if man deviates from the mandate, then God is powerless until he can find another person.
Have you READ the Bible?

Clearly not. It's chock full of examples of God doing whatever they very well please regardless of if a suitable human prophet can be found. Your insistence that any deity described in the Bible "needs" a human prophet is complete and utter bullocks. It isn't just Biblically illiterate, it's heresy in just about any Christian or Jewish denomination out there.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So it is said, but not proven!
Your refusal to accept evidence does not negate the accuracy of the evidence.

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Your idea of peace is positively skewed.
I'm not the one calling that horrorshow you're advocating "peace," you are. Thank you for admitting that your view of "peace" is skewed.

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
OFF on a tangent again.
No, a rebuttal. You insinuate that just because an event is described in a book, it must necessarily have happened. He gave you an example of events recorded in books that likely did not happen. You insinuate that someone who disbelieves that something occurred has the burden to prove it did not occur. He's asking you to validate that argument by proving that an event recorded in a book did not occur, just as you expect others to do in rebutting you.

But you probably realize this, which is why you're desperately trying to sweep the rebuttal under the carpet.
Thank you.

I'm not expecting any sort of real response from Paul Bethke on this topic. His arguments rarely, if ever, venture beyond "because I say that's what it means!" He appears to expect to be treated as infallible just because he lies about having the gift of prophesy.
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 10:06 AM   #2255
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Is it not man that Yahweh relied on that deviated from the injunction that God gave.
I have analysed all that is about Yahweh and found that God is holy and is justified by his righteous actions.

As I have stated on a number of times, Yahweh relies on man, and if man deviates from the mandate, then God is powerless until he can find another person.

This may sound strange, but in the END God will find a person who understands his will and is prepared to carry out the mandate.

Isa 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"
Well now ...

If you are actually correct, then this God of yours would have to be the most stupid, the most sadistic, and the most disgusting thing in the entire history of the universe.
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 10:33 AM   #2256
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
OFF on a tangent again.
Hardly, the fact that something is written down in a book does not make a real person, thing, or event. Using the logic of "̀t's written in the Bible, the Bible describes some historical events, therefore it must be true" at a very basic level we can ascertain that:

a. Lieutenant Colonel (Ret'd) Richard Sharpe and Sgt (Ret'd) Patrick Harper were actual people;
b. Uthred, son of Uthred served Alfred the Great;
c. Harry Flashman was a Victorian hero whose deeds have been sadly overlooked by modern historians and his great work "Dawns and Departures" is probably forgotten in some used book store;
d. Casca Rufio Longinius not only was the Roman soldier who stabbed a particular Jewish preacher with his spear, but is still among us today;
e. MacBeth was a deeply unpopular monarch who maintained power by means of witchcraft and brutality;
f. Johnny Canuck did punch Adolf Hitler (and about a month or two later Captain Steve Rogers did the same);
g. George Washington threw a dollar coin across the Potomac River;
etc.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 01:56 PM   #2257
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
Post In which our Hero Discovers a New Series to Explore

Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
c. Harry Flashman was a Victorian hero whose deeds have been sadly overlooked by modern historians and his great work "Dawns and Departures" is probably forgotten in some used book store;
I was unfamiliar with Harry Flashman. Which of his memoirs would you suggest I begin with?
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 02:54 PM   #2258
Beady
Philosopher
 
Beady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,886
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I was unfamiliar with Harry Flashman. Which of his memoirs would you suggest I begin with?
The 1st in the series is simply "Flashman." "Flashman and the Redskins" is two connected stories that take place in the American West in 1849 and 1876, respectively. Sadly, Flashy's adventures during the American Civil War were never recorded, although he does meet Abraham Lincoln and inspire "Uncle Tom's Cabin" in another volume. There are several titles that I'm forgetting. His final appearance in literature is as a secondary character in "Mr. American."

As you will note in the forward to each volume, while you have to take Flashy at his word on a great many things, he is dead - on accurate wherever events can be checked.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
__________________
I don't care what you do to the women and children,
leave me alone!
Beady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 03:17 PM   #2259
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Your idea of peace is positively skewed.
Really? Your idea of peace is that everyone is dead.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 03:17 PM   #2260
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 27,710
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Adultery may be a secret sin, but it is seen by God, who sees all secret sins that people commit. So no criminal will escape.
No, it's private and the god you invented should **** right off on this one. Just because he's your god does not give him the right to look into other people's personal affairs.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 04:25 PM   #2261
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I was unfamiliar with Harry Flashman. Which of his memoirs would you suggest I begin with?


I suggest the first one dealing with his service in the First Afghan War. It is called simply "Flashman."
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 11:02 PM   #2262
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? Your idea of peace is that everyone is dead.
Well everyone will eventually die, but it is where one goes when one dies, in the Presence of a holy righteous Creator, or in a place of utter darkness.

Your rejection of the truth will invariably destine you to the place of utter darkness, if you do not repent, and that will be my fault if I do not provide the evidence that there is a God.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 11:10 PM   #2263
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
No, it's private and the god you invented should **** right off on this one. Just because he's your god does not give him the right to look into other people's personal affairs.
Sin cannot be private as it has an outcome—a man committing adultery in a secluded place is not private. All sin has an effect.
Pro_17:23 A wicked man accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the course of justice.

Jer_23:24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.

So all your secret sins will be revealed. Eph_5:13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 11:17 PM   #2264
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Hardly, the fact that something is written down in a book does not make a real person, thing, or event. Using the logic of "̀t's written in the Bible, the Bible describes some historical events, therefore it must be true" at a very basic level we can ascertain that:

a. Lieutenant Colonel (Ret'd) Richard Sharpe and Sgt (Ret'd) Patrick Harper were actual people;
b. Uthred, son of Uthred served Alfred the Great;
c. Harry Flashman was a Victorian hero whose deeds have been sadly overlooked by modern historians and his great work "Dawns and Departures" is probably forgotten in some used book store;
d. Casca Rufio Longinius not only was the Roman soldier who stabbed a particular Jewish preacher with his spear, but is still among us today;
e. MacBeth was a deeply unpopular monarch who maintained power by means of witchcraft and brutality;
f. Johnny Canuck did punch Adolf Hitler (and about a month or two later Captain Steve Rogers did the same);
g. George Washington threw a dollar coin across the Potomac River;
etc.
But Yeshua did die and rose again, this historical fact has stood the test of time. The evidence must be in his words---- Joh 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 11:23 PM   #2265
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well everyone will eventually die, but it is where one goes when one dies, in the Presence of a holy righteous Creator, or in a place of utter darkness.

Your rejection of the truth will invariably destine you to the place of utter darkness, if you do not repent, and that will be my fault if I do not provide the evidence that there is a God.
None of that exists and I stand by my statement. The heaven you describe is a fate worse than death.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 11:25 PM   #2266
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But Yeshua did die and rose again, this historical fact has stood the test of time. The evidence must be in his words----
So you agree, jesus made no sacrifice at all, he was simply inconvenienced for a weekend.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 14th March 2017, 11:29 PM   #2267
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Sin cannot be private as it has an outcome—a man committing adultery in a secluded place is not private. All sin has an effect.
Pro_17:23 A wicked man accepts a bribe in secret to pervert the course of justice.

Jer_23:24 Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.

So all your secret sins will be revealed. Eph_5:13 But everything exposed by the light becomes visible,
Really? Then why did your god play a game of celestial hide and seek with Adam in the garden of eden?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 01:08 AM   #2268
Cosmic Yak
Philosopher
 
Cosmic Yak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Where there's never a road broader than the back of your hand.
Posts: 7,171
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Your rejection of the truth will invariably destine you to the place of utter darkness, if you do not repent, and that will be my fault if I do not provide the evidence that there is a God.
You have already admitted you don't have this evidence.

Have you thought how you're going to explain all the lost souls for which you will be responsible, to your god?

As I've said (twice) before, in posts you have totally ignored, if your god really wants to save us, and have us repent, as you claim he does, why doesn't he help you with this? Surely he could just point you in the direction of some evidence of his existence, or just stop messing around and just give you some evidence? You are going to be damned for your failure to lead anyone into redemption. Why does your god want this to happen? What kind of sick game is he playing?

I believe that Paul Bethke has me on ignore. Would someone kindly repost this, so I know he's seen it? Thanks in advance.

OMG! I made a prophecy!!! If this is reposted, I'll be a more accurate prophet than Paul Bethke!!!!!!!
__________________
'Of course it can be OK to mistreat people.'- shuttlt

Bring Back the Yak! P.J. Denyer
Cosmic Yak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 01:11 AM   #2269
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Really? Then why did your god play a game of celestial hide and seek with Adam in the garden of eden?
It proves to illustrate that when man sins by disobeying a command, he hides from God as is made clear in the following--Joh_3:19,20 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

It is also illustrated here---Rev_6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

So Adam and Eve hid from God because they had sinned, and gained nothing from their sin.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 01:19 AM   #2270
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
You have already admitted you don't have this evidence.

Have you thought how you're going to explain all the lost souls for which you will be responsible, to your god?

As I've said (twice) before, in posts you have totally ignored, if your god really wants to save us, and have us repent, as you claim he does, why doesn't he help you with this? Surely he could just point you in the direction of some evidence of his existence, or just stop messing around and just give you some evidence? You are going to be damned for your failure to lead anyone into redemption. Why does your god want this to happen? What kind of sick game is he playing?

I believe that Paul Bethke has me on ignore. Would someone kindly repost this, so I know he's seen it? Thanks in advance.

OMG! I made a prophecy!!! If this is reposted, I'll be a more accurate prophet than Paul Bethke!!!!!!!
You do not need signs to be made available in order to repent—you have already stated that you need to repent, so go ahead and repent. You cannot hold me responsible for your procrastination.

Heb_2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

The signs that are coming are to announce judgement, so if you repent before the signs appear, you will escape the judgement!!
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 01:25 AM   #2271
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
So you agree, jesus made no sacrifice at all, he was simply inconvenienced for a weekend.
I did not state that—the sacrifice of animals to make atonement for sin was only impermanent until the perfect sacrifice was made in order to replace the animal sacrifices.
Jesus being that perfect sacrifice.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 01:41 AM   #2272
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
None of that exists and I stand by my statement. The heaven you describe is a fate worse than death.
So you say in total ignorance of what hell is like---A poetic version of hell----9-circles-of-hell-dantes-inferno.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 02:42 AM   #2273
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,726
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
But Yeshua did die and rose again, this historical fact has stood the test of time. The evidence must be in his words---- Joh 14:12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


A historical fact found nowhere other then the Bible. A work easily demonstrated to be full of fiction. That a piece of fiction remains popular over time is not proof that it portrays real events, unless you also believe that The Illiad and the Odyssey are historical works, rather then fiction.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 04:46 AM   #2274
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
Well everyone will eventually die, but it is where one goes when one dies, in the Presence of a holy righteous Creator, or in a place of utter darkness.

Your rejection of the truth will invariably destine you to the place of utter darkness, if you do not repent, and that will be my fault if I do not provide the evidence that there is a God.
Being in the presence of an absolutely horrible, sadistic, and stupid being for all of eternity would be far more hellish than the hell you describe.

Once again Paul Bethke, you have failed to realize when you are speaking against your own argument.
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 04:50 AM   #2275
halleyscomet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 10,259
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So you say in total ignorance of what hell is like---A poetic version of hell----9-circles-of-hell-dantes-inferno.


Why am I not surprised you treat Dante's inferno as an extension of the Bible?
halleyscomet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 05:16 AM   #2276
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 14,588
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
So you say in total ignorance of what hell is like---A poetic version of hell----9-circles-of-hell-dantes-inferno.
Wow! You keep on speaking against your own arguments.

Maybe you have not realized this basic fact, but the mixing of your religious mythology with an old fictional story does not somehow convert the religious mythology into non-fiction. Instead, the mixing of such genres actually serves to weaken the credibility of your religious mythology that you have been so keen on for these many years.
__________________
A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 05:44 AM   #2277
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Paul Bethke View Post
It proves to illustrate that when man sins by disobeying a command, he hides from God as is made clear in the following--Joh_3:19,20 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

It is also illustrated here---Rev_6:16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

So Adam and Eve hid from God because they had sinned, and gained nothing from their sin.
You agree that your god is not omniscient and not omnipresent.

You have already stated that your god is powerless and thus not omnipotent.

What use is your god?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 06:14 AM   #2278
Beady
Philosopher
 
Beady's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42d 45'23.3"N, 84d 35' 10.8'W, 840'>MSL
Posts: 6,886
FWIW, Ives noticed that the daily the number of posts in this thread is shrinking. Looks like even Paul is running out of steam.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
__________________
I don't care what you do to the women and children,
leave me alone!
Beady is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 06:52 AM   #2279
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Why am I not surprised you treat Dante's inferno as an extension of the Bible?
You are wrong again as always.

Jesus said if your hand cause you to sin--it is better to cut it off THAN----Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

So you must do what is better THAN. This warning from Jesus is a serious statement, unbelief cannot nullify the truth.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 15th March 2017, 07:01 AM   #2280
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
 
Paul Bethke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: West Coast South Africa
Posts: 6,081
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Wow! You keep on speaking against your own arguments.

Maybe you have not realized this basic fact, but the mixing of your religious mythology with an old fictional story does not somehow convert the religious mythology into non-fiction. Instead, the mixing of such genres actually serves to weaken the credibility of your religious mythology that you have been so keen on for these many years.
How does one describe the horror of hell—it is so awful that it requires numerous ways to describe it, even to the extent of using Dante.

Blackest darkness is one way---eternal fire is another way, either way it is a horrible destination.

Hell is the reason the Gospel is preached to deter people from the horror----you SEE Crossbow, God is powerless to save the sinner if they do not repent, so as the convert can enter the Presence of the Creator.

Now be a good fellow and repent of all your unbelief.
__________________
Luke 21:31---Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the Kingdom of God is near.
Paul Bethke is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:01 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.