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8th August 2019, 03:00 PM | #1 |
Penultimate Amazing
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UK to attract scientists from overseas 'like magnets'
Currently scientists from the EU are free to work and live in the UK. After Brexit, they will be under the same rules and regulations as non-EU migrants who want to work in the UK. Non-EU 'highly skilled' workers are restricted to just 2,000 per annum have to comply with rigorously tough standards and then pay a typical £8,000 for the privilege.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson has suddenly had a thought, wait a minute, once we've sent the EU lot packing, help, there'll be a deficit of scientists. To resolve this matter, he has instructed the Home Office to scrap the 2,000 fast lane visa and to do away with almost any restrictions. Even their dependents will be welcome!
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Question is, would a highly skilled scientist want to work in the UK? |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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8th August 2019, 03:50 PM | #2 |
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Please tell me that the EU scientists will be grandfathered in. Other than that, yes, scientists will want to work in the UK. They already do otherwise there wouldn’t be systems in place to get them.
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Слава Україні! **** Putin! |
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8th August 2019, 04:09 PM | #3 |
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************* scientists, how do they work?
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There is no Antimemetics Division. |
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8th August 2019, 04:33 PM | #4 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Especially from the USA....
The Trump administration is anti-science, it is overwhelmed with science deniers and Climate Change deniers. Any US scientists who tell the administration things that they don't want to hear, or that does not fit the latter's political agenda, are either ignored or fired. https://www.dailykos.com/stories/201...2-weeks-DANGER https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...y-or-be-fired/ |
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If you're not a scientist but you think you've destroyed the foundation of a vast scientific edifice with 10 minutes of Googling, you might want to consider the possibility that you're wrong. Its TRE45ON season... convict the F45CIST!! |
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8th August 2019, 04:44 PM | #5 |
Philosopher
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Considering the UK has some of the most prestigious places of higher-learning and scientific research, the answer is generally yes. Of course one can question whether or not the "top scientists" would actually see any practical difference, since they already tend to be in high demand.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann |
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8th August 2019, 11:44 PM | #6 |
Mostly harmless
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How much of the work that scientists currently do in n the UK receives EU funding?
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8th August 2019, 11:50 PM | #7 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Around 3%
https://royalsociety.org/topics-poli...mpare-with-uk/ The largest sources are: - Industry 45% - Government Departments 11% - Research Councils 11% - Higher Education Funding Councils 8% |
9th August 2019, 12:18 AM | #8 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, but the question needs rephrasing, as follows:
"Would a highly skilled scientist prefer to work in the UK, as opposed to working in a different country?" The answer to that hinges on post-Brexit reality. You won't get many cutting edge scientist if you're struggling with food shortages and nightly riots in the streets, I guarantee it. Someone should tell BJ most scientists are diamagnetic. McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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9th August 2019, 02:50 AM | #9 |
No longer the 1
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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9th August 2019, 11:39 PM | #10 |
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
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What if the scientists aren't like magnets?
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10th August 2019, 12:00 AM | #11 |
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10th August 2019, 02:10 AM | #12 |
Bazooka Joe
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The problem is that the source of this claim is one Boris Johnson. His recent* track record on such predictions is not a great one. Given his recent form, why should anyone pay any attention to this one, even to bother to refute it?
* Recent: (adj) Say, about the last 30 years or so. |
10th August 2019, 10:02 PM | #13 |
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10th August 2019, 10:04 PM | #14 |
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I am tempted to start a thread about favourite knitting techniques and time how long it takes someone to blame Trump for less people knitting
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11th August 2019, 02:28 AM | #15 |
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"Keep, ancient lands, your Johnnie Foreign RiffRaff!" cries he
With silent lips. "Give me your PhDs, your MBAs, Your monied elite yearning to fox-hunt free, The landed tycoons of your teeming shore. Send these, the magnates, lucre-rolled to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" --Boris Lazarus |
11th August 2019, 02:39 AM | #16 |
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11th August 2019, 02:50 AM | #17 |
No longer the 1
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OK.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves. |
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11th August 2019, 05:18 AM | #18 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Isn't it a sad indictment of the UK education system that we don't have enough high-grade scientists of our own. This is the nation that brought the world all kinds of inventions? A very distant ancestor of mine, a Dr Maxwell from Dundee (graduate of Edinburgh) pioneered the cure for yaws (=a form of early syphilis), now superseded by antibiotics.
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11th August 2019, 07:37 AM | #19 |
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I suspect that the UK does have enough science-educated folks.
Research as a discipline is typically highly publicly funded (not exclusively) though, so to the extent that Brexit reduces the funding available to research in the UK (which I believe it does), this reduces the relative attraction of the UK to those who wish to do it. But quite apart from this there is a quasi religious belief that selective skills-based immigration ("points systems") is a good thing, even among those who think that unskilled immigration simultaneously leads to lower wages, fewer jobs, benefit scrounging, no council accommodation or school places or hospital beds and so on. In reality the UK needs more unskiĺled and skilled immigrants alike. Ideally a million a year sounds like a start to me. Voters disagree though. |
11th August 2019, 09:02 AM | #20 |
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11th August 2019, 09:27 AM | #21 |
Penultimate Amazing
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From twitter:
Quote:
It's no wonder NY-born Boris is having to take desperate measures to entice and replace the highly-skilled, before it turns into a national disaster. When one of the top universities (Durham) can't find tutors, the stable door looks to have been pushed shut (or trying to) after the horse has bolted. |
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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11th August 2019, 10:56 AM | #22 |
Penultimate Amazing
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My experience based on my sabbatical leave in the UK was that a large percentage of the graduate student/post-doc researchers, etc. in molecular biology/biomedicine research at the top universities were from other EU countries, often on EU sponsored fellowships, grants. etc. Many more than 3%. I suspect that the very top universities tend to draw more of these EU researchers and EU grants than average, which may account for the difference between what I saw at Cambridge vs the Royal Society numbers (which are averages). There were also of course additional grad students/post-docs from China, India, Pakistan, and the Middle East.
BTW: university labs having significant numbers of grad students and post-docs, who are both in training and are simultaneously doing actual research (and paid for it), is fairly standard in many areas of science and in many countries. It is the same in the USA, although we get more people from outside the EU than in it. The grad students work toward a PhD or Masters while doing research that they will publish as part of their thesis, get their tuition paid for, and are provided with a "stipend" (currently around 35,000 to 45,000 US dollars a year), often from grants. The post-docs are also trained in the area of their research as well as performing it, and get paid usually over 55,000 US dollars a year. Sort of apprenticeships... In both cases this work in a more senior person's lab gets added to their c.v.s as experience, and the publication of their research adds to their reputation; both of which are the ways they are subsequently able to obtain labs or independent positions of their own. I have no idea how the UK exit from the EU will actually impact this system, but it doesn't look good to my friends in UK academic bioscience/biomedicine science; they are very, very frightened. It certainly would be helpful if visa and work permit requirements for these EU scientists are minimized after the exit. |
11th August 2019, 11:02 AM | #23 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Well, not that per se. It is not really that the UK doesn't have enough "high-grade" scientists in country but that science progresses best as an international venture, and that labs benefit from having top scientists visiting/working/sharing ideas from throughout the world. The UK is still considered one of the top countries for scientific research in many areas. Particularly biomedicine. But the attractiveness increases and decreases with the political climate and funding levels: when the government implements deep cuts in university and research funding, researchers look to other countries for their training and studies.
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11th August 2019, 01:17 PM | #24 |
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What problems is Durham having hiring teaching staff, exactly? Senior academic staff compensation in the UK is generally higher than elsewhere in the EU partly because it is competitively set by the unis in the UK and not as collectively bargained as elsewhere, and it gets bid up slightly higher and it is closer to the US arrangement even though tuition fees are capped.
But I don’t think that has much to to with the sudden apparent rush to import scientists. |
11th August 2019, 01:20 PM | #25 |
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12th August 2019, 11:57 AM | #26 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Another question is whether will it be strictly “researchers" or will it be applied to STEM in general. It’s not unusual at all for technology companies to want to hire workers on visa’s because they are a lot cheaper. In the US some prominent companies (eg Microsoft, IBM, etc) have literally brought in workers on visa’s and have them trained by the people they will be replacing.
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12th August 2019, 12:22 PM | #27 |
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Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
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12th August 2019, 04:11 PM | #28 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein. |
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12th August 2019, 04:22 PM | #29 |
Penultimate Amazing
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To be fair he was not making it personal. And people do have a perfectly reasonable hope to be hired in the area of their specialty/training whatever the field: plumbing, car repair, health care, law, etc. That was the goal behind their investment of their time, effort, and resources in the training. Of course this is influenced by the economy, but it is not elitist to suggest that it is unfortunate if economic forces make it impossible for an otherwise qualified individual to pursue their career hopes and dreams.
In my field of molecular biology/biomedicine there are currently a large number of truly excellent PhDs but a relatively small number of openings for them as researchers in academia and pharmacological companies. This waxes and wains significantly over time so it is not as if a student can make a logical economic decision as to job availability when they first commit to the field and to a PhD. Also in MHO the need of society for more of these researches is a lot greater than the great god of "economics" mandates (a god composed in this case largely of government grant award decisions and the profitability goals of private enterprise, which are often very short sighted). Just one example: no one is currently investing a lot of money on studies overcoming bacterial drug resistance. I can explain why the societal need is totally uncoupled from the economic pressures if you wish, but the outcome is that we are moving into a very scary future where dying of infectious disease will resemble the situation per 1940s. |
Last edited by Giordano; 12th August 2019 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Needed to be more specific as to qualified individuals. |
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12th August 2019, 09:58 PM | #30 |
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More that selective immigration is a policy with unintended economic consequences.
It is also ethically dodgy that "let's import clever scientists" even flies in the context of an anti immigration policy like brexit in the first place and indicates that brexit is more to keep less educated people out. |
12th August 2019, 10:22 PM | #31 |
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12th August 2019, 11:47 PM | #32 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Higher education points-based immigration systems are easy to manipulate. If there are easier openings for, say, vascular surgeons, almost nobody in the government immigration offices policing these applicants would be able to pick a highly-qualified vascular surgeon from a coal-miner with a fake degree certificate.
So they turn to the industry to vet the applicants. And thus there will be a bunch of "homeopathic hospitals" wanting "quantum vascular surgeons" and they have exactly the candidates to fill the jobs...who just happen to be their slack-arsed brothers-in-law, their cousins, and their cousin's cousins, all looking for a free passage in with no questions asked. And all "fully approved". Sound very fake and dodgy? Well, that's what actually happens here. |
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13th August 2019, 04:19 PM | #33 |
Penultimate Amazing
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who claims the soulless Who speaks for the forgotten dead ~ Danzig |
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13th August 2019, 10:26 PM | #34 |
Penultimate Amazing
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That's not necessarily a bad thing. Taxi drivers with PhDs are a waste of talent sure, but intelligent and educated people (those who hold PhDs are usually but not always both) tend to enrich a society above and beyond their economic role. At the very least they will bust stereotypes and help their people assimilate, helping to push xenophobia back to the fringe where it belongs.
It's not the best approach to immigration by any means but it's not as bad as it sounds. McHrozni |
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13th August 2019, 10:28 PM | #35 |
Penultimate Amazing
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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13th August 2019, 10:44 PM | #36 |
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13th August 2019, 11:09 PM | #37 |
Penultimate Amazing
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Really? Honest and true?
Suppose you have a convicted, confessed serial killer who escaped from prison in a country you have no extradiction treaty with who comes to your country and asks to be allowed to immigrate. Do you take his prior criminal record into account or do you think it's objectional to allow and disallow immigration on the basis of what his contribution to society might be? McHrozni |
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لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه |
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14th August 2019, 01:11 AM | #38 |
Penultimate Amazing
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At the moment it's over £42k p.a.
Quote:
Then there are the extras...
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14th August 2019, 04:09 AM | #39 |
Girl
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You're funny.
I get what you want to happen yes. White dude with an MBA, few million in a Cayman account, formerly general partner of a private equity outfit and got minted via leveraged buy outs, you roll out the red carpet and say: "Welcome in!". But a black single mother with no qualifications who worked in a convenience store and is taking her son away from an abusive relationship: "Send her back!" |
14th August 2019, 04:16 AM | #40 |
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