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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 30th November 2020, 06:12 AM   #3001
dann
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This. I was looking at some art gallery paintings recently and was struck by how many artists and their subjects were tublerculosis victims. Now TB is still within living memory of our grandparents - I even knew someone near my age whose father died of TB in a sanatorium - not to mention polio, which was rife especially in Denmark up to the early sixties, and will have also been in Sweden.

Not exactly rife, I think, but the last case was in 1976:

Quote:
I 1955-1956 blev der gennemført en omfattende poliovaccination af den danske befolkning. Danmark var det første land i verden, der kunne tilbyde skolebørn i de fem første skoleklasser én gratis poliovaccination. Takket være vaccinationsprogrammet, blev en polioepidemi i Danmark i 1961 væsentlig mindre end forventet. Senere udvikledes en forbedret vaccine, der kunne indtages gennem munden på et stykke sukker.
Det sidste tilfælde af polio i Danmark blev registreret i 1976.
Polio (Wikipedia)
In 1955-56, a massive polio vaccination campaign was carried out in the Danish population. Denmark was the first country in the world to offer school children in the first five years of classes one free polio vaccination. Thanks to the vaccination campaign, a polio epidemic in Denmark in 1961 was considerably smaller than expected. Later, an improved vaccine was developed, which could be administered orally in a lump of sugar.
The last case of polio in Denmark was registered in 1976.


Quote:
Given the relatively modern day scourges of TB and poliomyelitis, which swept across Europe, I struggle to understand how Tegnell can rationalise away his 'pandemic strategy' as being due to 'Covid19 being completely new and unprecedented'. It is just nonsense. They had the tools - previous dangerous contagious diseases, together with their medical studies thereof in order to qualify and specialise in that very topic - they had the know-how: they knew exactly what needs to be done to limit the spread of the disease. It is just infuriating to see experts adopt the 'do nothing' approach, even if the likes of Johnson, Bolsanaro (_sp?) and Trump could be forgiven (humph!) as being ignorant and uncaring self-serving politicians.

Uncaring and self-serving, yes, definitely. But Trump was never as ignorant about this as he pretended (and sometimes still pretends) to be. Remember him bragging to Woodward about his knowledge of the new virus?!
Timeline: Charting Trump's public comments on Covid-19 vs. what he told Woodward in private (CNN, Sep. 16, 2020)

I had to look up how much Bolsonaro knew, but he had people advising him, too. (It would have been weird if he hadn't. They all do.) He fired his minister of health!
Quote:
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th November 2020, 06:25 AM   #3002
dann
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rolfe is talking about 'true airborne' diseases, but of course livestock would be outside in a field so then, wind blown disease-carrying viruses/bacteria becomes relevant. However, of course, livestock are rarely indoors, except in their pens and stalls.

Oh yes, they are! And they go crazy when they are let out in spring!

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If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?

That could be through droplets! Animals sneeze, too! And remember that furriers get infected, too.
I don't think mink have infected people who weren't in direct contact with them.
The interesting question is how coronavirus spreads from mink farm to mink farm. At one point, coronavirus was found on the feet of Danish seagulls.
I guess you could call that airborne.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th November 2020, 07:05 AM   #3003
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New restrictions are expected to be announced in Denmark:

Quote:
- Det ville være en klog disposition at lukke for al undervisning fra 6. klasse og op 14 dage før juleferien for på den måde at komme ind i julen med et lavt smittetryk, siger han.
Eksperter bakker op om restriktioner, men vil gå længere: Luk for undervisning (TV2.dk, Nov. 30, 2020)
- It would be a wise decision to lock down all education, from the sixth year of school and older, 14 days before the Christmas holidays in order to start Christmas with a low level of infection, he says.
Experts back up restrictions but want to go further: Lock down education

Quote:
De nye restriktioner kan komme i spil fra mandag 7. december og vil i første omgang gælde til 2. januar.
Coronarestriktioner på vej i 17 hovedstadskommuner (TV2.dk, Nov. 30, 2020)
The new restrictions may begin on Monday, Dec. 7, and will last till at least Jan. 2.
Corona restrictions on the way in 17 municipalities in the Copenhagen area
Currently, 15 of the hardest-hit municipalities in Denmark are in the Copenhagen area. I live in one of them, Frederiksberg.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th November 2020, 07:11 AM   #3004
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Scandinavian corona bullying

Norwegians are mean to Swedes!

Quote:
Åsa Weiland jobbar som sjuksköterska och har bott 23 år i Norge. Hon säger att coronakrisen har påverkat den norska synen på svenskar.
Åsa Weiland i Oslo tänker sig för innan hon pratar svenska i matbutiken. Andra svenskar i Norge vittnar om norrmän som inte vill sitta tillsammans med arbetskamrater från grannlandet på lunchrasten. På båda sidor kölen har regeringarna rutit till mot det som kallas ”coronamobbning”.
– Den är absolut ingen överdrift, säger Norgependlaren Fredrica Bornstedt.
Åsa har levt i Norge i 23 år – nu vill hon inte längre prata svenska i mataffären (DagensNyheter.se, Nov. 30, 2020)
Åsa Weiland is working as a nurse and has lived in Norway for 23 years. She says that the corona crisis has affected the Norwegian view on Swedes.
Åsa Weiland considers carefully before speaking Swedish in the food store. Other Swedes in Norway talk about Norwegians who won’t sit at the same table as colleagues from the neighouring country at lunch break. On both side of the border, the governments have cracked down on the so-called ”corona bullying”.
– It is absolutely not exaggerated, says Swedish Norway commuter Fredrica Bornstedt.
Åsa has lived in Norway for 23 years – now she won’t speak Swedish in the food shop
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th November 2020, 04:54 PM   #3005
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That is simply not true. Tuberculosis is airborne yet you won't catch it outside in the wind. You have to breathe in a concentrated amount of droplet nuclei (not to be confused with droplets in droplet spread) in order for enough of the TB bacillus to make it to the alveoli which has the conditions it requires to start an infection.

The rest of my answer is in the COVID medicine thread.

It is absolutely true. I stated that this coronavirus does not spread long distances outdoors on the wind. It doesn't. Unless you know something nobody else does.
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Old 30th November 2020, 04:59 PM   #3006
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rolfe is talking about 'true airborne' diseases, but of course livestock would be outside in a field so then, wind blown disease-carrying viruses/bacteria becomes relevant. However, of course, livestock are rarely indoors, except in their pens and stalls.

If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?

Livestock are frequently indoors. Some intensively-farmed animals never see the outside, though I wouldn't condone that. The epizootiology of calf pneumonia is an interesting topic, including how to design or modify buildings to mitigate the risk.

People are often outdoors too, you may have noticed from time to time. If this could be caught on the wind while you were out on a solo country walk we'd be in a lot more trouble than we are. This coronavirus does not transmit over significant distances out of doors, and nothing that has happened with respect to the mink has called that into question.
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Old 30th November 2020, 05:04 PM   #3007
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I remember being in the first cohort of Scottish children who received the first Salk vaccine. I'm not sure of the date but I was pre-school. Might have been 1957. There was a boy in my class at primary school who had both legs in callipers. He must have been a polio victim. The virus must have been in our village when I was a baby. No wonder my mother couldn't get me down to that clinic fast enough. (I was a bit miffed when I learned later that an oral vaccine - the Sabin vaccine - had been developed and you only had to eat a sugar lump, not have a needle stuck in you twice.)

My father's first wife died of tuberculosis in the 1940s. To think of it, if it wasn't for TB I'd never have been born.

That's how close we are to these diseases, but people forget.
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Old 30th November 2020, 05:39 PM   #3008
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I think you need more context.

Rolfe and I were discussing airborne viruses - the one that springs to mind is Foot and Mouth, which is airborne and the outbreaks can spread several *miles* downwind. At least that isn't the case with COVID-19.
I read the context.
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Old 30th November 2020, 06:00 PM   #3009
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
... If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?
Good example. Could be airborne via contaminated dust. That is how Haanta virus is spread, disturbed mouse nests cause the contaminated particles to become airborne.

And the issue for humans is once the virus passes through the mink, secondary human infections might be vaccine resistant. Also passing back and forth between animals and humans might facilitate mutations.
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Old 30th November 2020, 06:12 PM   #3010
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
....
The interesting question is how coronavirus spreads from mink farm to mink farm. At one point, coronavirus was found on the feet of Danish seagulls.
I guess you could call that airborne.
A number of animal pathogens are of concern in farms because they can be spread on the shoes/boots of farm workers.

It's likely these minks are being infected directly from persons. But once a single mink or two are infected it spreads rapidly throughout the farm. The speed which the virus spreads from animal to animal suggests airborne spread.

BBC: What's the science behind mink and coronavirus?
Quote:
Scientists suspect the virus spreads in mink farms through infectious droplets, on feed or bedding, or in dust containing droppings....

... Some scientists have called for new restrictions on mink production, saying mink farming "impedes our response and recovery from the pandemic".

In a recent letter to the journal, Science, three scientists, from Denmark, China and Malaysia, wrote: "It is urgent to monitor, restrict, and - where possible - ban mink production."

The WHO has called on all countries to step up surveillance and tighten biosecurity measures around mink farms.
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Old 30th November 2020, 06:20 PM   #3011
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It is absolutely true. I stated that this coronavirus does not spread long distances outdoors on the wind. It doesn't. Unless you know something nobody else does.
You said it wasn't airborne because it wasn't spread outdoors in the wind.
Originally Posted by Rolfe
True airborne transmission where...
I said you don't need outdoor long distance spread to define a pathogen as airborne—thus the example of TB which is airborne.

The rest of my reply is here.
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Old 30th November 2020, 11:17 PM   #3012
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If Covid19 is not airborne, how would you explain mink populations across northern Europe carrying the '5-cluster' Covid19 mutation, and passing it on to at least a dozen human individuals?
I have never heard that the Cluster 5 mutation spread anywhere else than to a few mink farms in Northern Jutland. And I believe it was carried from farm to farm not by the wind, but by humans.

This mutation has only been registered in 12 humans, but it might have been carried by migrant workers who surprisingly were never tested. Cluster 5 is believed to be extinct by now.
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Old 30th November 2020, 11:57 PM   #3013
dann
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Monday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Nov. 30, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 660 (6,681) 6,774* 219* **according to SVT.se No new numbers till Tuesday afternoon.
Denmark: 144 (837) 1,129* 44 *based on 59,994 tests, 1.9 % positive.
Iceland: 76 (26) 11 2
Finland: 72 (399) 283 18
Norway: 61 (332) 322 35
Iceland has 187 active cases, Faroe Islands 5, New Zealand 72
The Faroe Islands have 49 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Quote:
The person, who is linked to a known chain of infection, has been isolated and contact tracing is underway.
Over the past week, the daily number of positive tests has been as follows: 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0 and 1.
One new Covid case (KVF.fo, Nov. 30, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 12:10 AM   #3014
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
I have never heard that the Cluster 5 mutation spread anywhere else than to a few mink farms in Northern Jutland. And I believe it was carried from farm to farm not by the wind, but by humans.

This mutation has only been registered in 12 humans, but it might have been carried by migrant workers who surprisingly were never tested. Cluster 5 is believed to be extinct by now.
There is no evidence it is spread from farm to farm on the wind. But it spreads within the farms in a manner suggesting there is at least some airborne transmission.

It's very easy to test, not sure if it's been done or is going to be done. You put critters in separate cages and see if it spreads from one separate cage to another. That's a standard means of detecting airborne spread.
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Old 1st December 2020, 12:13 AM   #3015
dann
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The speed which the virus spreads from animal to animal suggests airborne spread.

No, it doesn't. And your quotation contradicts it:
Quote:
Scientists suspect the virus spreads in mink farms through infectious droplets, on feed or bedding, or in dust containing droppings....
BBC: What's the science behind mink and coronavirus? (BBC News, Nov. 9, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 12:27 AM   #3016
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Most recent news about contamination from mink:
Quote:
- Vi har en undersøgelse, der viser, at de døde mink kan smitte, slår styrelsen fast.
Først smittede døde mink ikke, nu gør de - Fødevarestyrelsen erkender fejl (DR.dk, Nov. 30, 2020)
We have a study that shows that the dead mink can transmit the infection, the agency states.
At first, the dead mink did not transmit the virus, now they do - the Agency of Foodstuffs acknowledges error

The question became contentious after a truckload of dead mink were accidentally dropped on a highway and had to be cleaned up. Furriers getting infected is another example of dead mink transmitting the disease to humans.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 12:27 AM   #3017
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, it doesn't. And your quotation contradicts it:
I did mention this, the spread via dust is airborne spread. I used the Haanta virus as an example of airborne spread via contaminated dust.

Histoplasmosis is another one. It's a fungal infection spread on dust.

Mayo Clinic: Histoplasmosis is an infection caused by breathing in spores of a fungus often found in bird and bat droppings. The infection is most commonly spread when these spores are inhaled after taking to the air, such as during demolition or cleanup projects.

Patients with histoplasmosis are not contagious.

From CDC/NIOSH re occupational exposure and protection:
Quote:
Anyone working at a job or present near activities where material contaminated with H. capsulatum becomes airborne can develop histoplasmosis if enough spores are inhaled.
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Old 1st December 2020, 12:50 AM   #3018
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I wrote another post on this subject in the medicine thread.
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Old 1st December 2020, 01:40 AM   #3019
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I did mention this, the spread via dust is airborne spread. I used the Haanta virus as an example of airborne spread via contaminated dust.

That wasn't my point. You wrote that the "speed which the virus spreads from animal to animal suggests airborne spread." It doesn't. They are in cages where they can sneeze on each other and lick each other through the bars.
That was the point of the photo.
A disease can't find a better way of spreading fast.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 01:49 AM   #3020
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The noble art of losing face ...

After Black Friday and before Christmas shopping begins:
Läkare kräver munskydd i butiker: ”Kan sluta illa” (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Nov. 29, 2020)
Doctors demand face masks in stores: "May end badly"

I am once again reminded of the snowflake in the White House. Thousands of people are dying, and yet it is necessary to think of ways to avoid hurting the feelings of those responsible for the deaths:
Quote:
Vintern kan komma att bli avgörande i munskyddsfrågan. Luft som värms upp i våra hem när det är kallt ute är torrare än vanligt. Torr luft gör att luftburna aerosoler med coronavirus är mindre och svävar runt längre i luften, enligt en studie publicerad i tidsskriften Transboundary and Emerging diseases.
Enligt Fredrik Elgh, professor i virologi vid Umeå universitet, gör det nyttan med munskydd större och kan få myndigheterna att svänga i frågan.
– Det skulle kunna vara en utväg för dem om de nu ska tappa ansiktet och rekommendera munskydd, säger han.
Sverige kan tvingas till nya restriktioner (Expressen.se, Nov. 30, 2020)
In the question of face masks, the coming winter may be crucial. Air that is heated in our homes when it is cold outside is drier than usual. Dry air means that airborne aerosols with coronavirus are smaller and floats in the air longer, according to a study published in the journal Transboundary and Emerging diseases.
According to Fredrik Elgh, professor of virology at the University of Umeå, it increases the usefulness of face masks and may make the authorities change their minds about the issue.
It would be a way out for them if they have to lose face and recommend face masks, he says.
Sweden may be forced to introduce new restrictions
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 02:01 AM   #3021
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That wasn't my point. You wrote that the "speed which the virus spreads from animal to animal suggests airborne spread." It doesn't. They are in cages where they can sneeze on each other and lick each other through the bars.
That was the point of the photo.
A disease can't find a better way of spreading fast.
You can disagree, that's fine. I am sticking with what I said.

When something is droplet spread in a place such as a mink farm, one animal gets infected. There isn't a lot of contagion at that stage no matter how crowded things are.

Next the animals that are infected from mink-zero have to incubate the virus until they are contagious, and so on.

Rapid spread suggests airborne transmission.

Now if it turns out the mink are getting the infection from contaminated feed or water, especially if it is a GI disease in minks, then mink-zero can infect a larger number of secondary minks in the first go-round.
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Old 1st December 2020, 02:23 AM   #3022
Vixen
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Not exactly rife, I think, but the last case was in 1976:


In 1955-56, a massive polio vaccination campaign was carried out in the Danish population. Denmark was the first country in the world to offer school children in the first five years of classes one free polio vaccination. Thanks to the vaccination campaign, a polio epidemic in Denmark in 1961 was considerably smaller than expected. Later, an improved vaccine was developed, which could be administered orally in a lump of sugar.
The last case of polio in Denmark was registered in 1976.





Uncaring and self-serving, yes, definitely. But Trump was never as ignorant about this as he pretended (and sometimes still pretends) to be. Remember him bragging to Woodward about his knowledge of the new virus?!
Timeline: Charting Trump's public comments on Covid-19 vs. what he told Woodward in private (CNN, Sep. 16, 2020)

I had to look up how much Bolsonaro knew, but he had people advising him, too. (It would have been weird if he hadn't. They all do.) He fired his minister of health!
According to a book I read, Denmark ran out of iron lungs and had to operate them by hand. This would have entailed a nurse standing there 24/7, pumping away.

As for Johnson, Trump and Blosonaro I truly believe them to be ignorant about public health.
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Old 1st December 2020, 02:52 AM   #3023
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I remember being in the first cohort of Scottish children who received the first Salk vaccine. I'm not sure of the date but I was pre-school. Might have been 1957. There was a boy in my class at primary school who had both legs in callipers. He must have been a polio victim. The virus must have been in our village when I was a baby. No wonder my mother couldn't get me down to that clinic fast enough. (I was a bit miffed when I learned later that an oral vaccine - the Sabin vaccine - had been developed and you only had to eat a sugar lump, not have a needle stuck in you twice.)

My father's first wife died of tuberculosis in the 1940s. To think of it, if it wasn't for TB I'd never have been born.

That's how close we are to these diseases, but people forget.
When I was at school vaccinations were routine. The nurses just came to the school and did them. BCG, polio, etc, etc., although it didn't stop me getting all the usual childhood illnesses. A girl in my class had a heavy left-sided limp and there was another boy in which it was not apparent. I had polio in Finland living on my grandparents farm. Was in hospital nigh on eight weeks pre-toddler. Treatment was hay baths - not a good idea really since I am allergic to pollen plus lots of physiotherapy. Mine was acute paralysis in left arm and shoulder which recovered quite a lot and being 'upside down' - as most people have it in the leg - it is not apparent to anyone. The irony was, the vaccine had been available several years by then. The outbreak went around the countryside and my neighbour of a similar age also had it plus and older woman who spent her entire life in an iron lung.

TB I was interested in as there is a very famous ex-TB sanotarium nearby me in Paimo. It is still a tourist attraction today due to it being designed by one of the world's most famous architects and remains of great interest to architects today in terms of social building. For example, the Wellcome Trust Foundation in Euston Road featured key aspects of it in its Well Being Buildings exhibition a couple of years ago.

There is a long history of how diseases impact on (a) people's health and (b) what is needed environmentally for people's well being. The medical profession knew to isolate TB victims. The nurse who came back from Africa to Scotland after contracting Ebola was whipped away to an isolation hospital FAST. When Covid19 first broke out, ambulance crews were wearing Hazmat suits and people took it seriously. Then along came the likes of Diane 'Dido' Harding and Boris Johnson in the UK and Tegnell in Sweden who were more interested in 'the economy' (= translated: 'We don't want to cancel all these big profitable events coming up'), plus a callous disregard for the elderly in care homes: there is definitely a sense of seeing them as unimportant and with many suffering from dementia. The culture in Finland and Sweden is that people are very independent. Although they are clannish - if you have no family here then you could find it very hard to make friends should you emigrate here - OTOH young people are expected to live independently at an early age, compared to the UK. There is little 'moving granny in with you'. The elderly live in designated 'senior' apartment blocks, which is adapted for the elderly and those with mobility problems (wide bathrooms, hand rails, emergency phones), together with very light oriented sunny glazed balconies. This is all voluntary. Alternatively they can have a district nurse visit regularly, have meals delivered daily or carry on living in their own house. There is one lady nearby me who has a sweet little red house in a pretty birch forest who is a hundred years old and lives entirely alone. People in Finland and Sweden are fiercely, stubbornly independent. However, they also tend to trust the government and do whatever is advised. Has the trust in the Swedish coalition government turned...? It'll it be interesting to see how it comes to a head.
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Old 1st December 2020, 06:45 AM   #3024
dann
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can disagree, that's fine. I am sticking with what I said.

When something is droplet spread in a place such as a mink farm, one animal gets infected. There isn't a lot of contagion at that stage no matter how crowded things are.

Next the animals that are infected from mink-zero have to incubate the virus until they are contagious, and so on.

Rapid spread suggests airborne transmission.

Now if it turns out the mink are getting the infection from contaminated feed or water, especially if it is a GI disease in minks, then mink-zero can infect a larger number of secondary minks in the first go-round.

Your assume that only "one animal gets infected," your "mink-zero". They appear to be very susceptible to the virus, and they are infected by humans, their handlers, probably, in the first place. So you should be looking for a 'Homo sapiens zero', and that person can infect several animals, maybe all of them on the same day.
Rapid spread suggests nothing.
You haven't considered how your "mink-zero" got infected in the first place. If the vector is contaminated food or water, there is also no reason to assume that most of the animals don't get infected more or less simultaneously.
Why would it happen only to one?
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 06:55 AM   #3025
dann
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As for Johnson, Trump and Blosonaro I truly believe them to be ignorant about public health.

Their indifference is the point. That they didn't want to know and therefore got rid of the people who were informing them as well as the general public about the pandemic makes it obvious that they don't care about the deaths, not that they don't know about the death toll. Trump couldn't have bragged to Bob Woodward about his knowledge of the dangers of the virus if he didn't know about it.
It is what Trump and Bolsonaro have in common with Tegnell and his coronavirus-denying fans in Sweden and abroad.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 07:07 AM   #3026
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The number of new registered cases on Tuesdays in Sweden (no numbers Saturday, Sunday, Monday):
Tuesday, Sep. 15: 840 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Sep. 22: 1,199 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Sep. 29: 1,543 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 6: 1,862 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 13: 2,203 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 20: 3,180 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Oct. 27: 5,191 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 3: 10,177 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 10: 15,779 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 17: 15,084 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Nov. 24: 17,265 - since Friday, according to SVT.se
Tuesday, Dec. 1: 17,629 - since Friday, according to SVT.se

Only a small increase since last week, but it could be due to an insufficient level of testing.
Last Tuesday, the registered death toll was 94. Today it is 117.

Quote:
Vid övergången är nu vägen avstängd och all trafik kontrolleras. Svenskar utan ett färskt negativt test för covid-19 kommer inte in i Norge och väl inne väntar dessutom tio dagar i karantän.
Norska militärer coronabevakar gränsen mot Sverige (SVT.se, Dec. 1, 2020)
At the border, the road has now been closed and all traffic is controlled. Swedes without a new negative test for Covid-19 will not get into Norway, and those who do will have to spend ten days in quarantine.
Norwegian soldiers are guarding the border to Sweden against coronavirus
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 09:47 AM   #3027
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's very easy to test, not sure if it's been done or is going to be done. You put critters in separate cages and see if it spreads from one separate cage to another. That's a standard means of detecting airborne spread.
The pictures I have seen seemed to show that the critters are indeed in separate cages in a big rack with a few animals in each.

But they are handled by humans who walk from cage to cage.
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Old 1st December 2020, 10:36 AM   #3028
dann
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Trump couldn't have bragged to Bob Woodward about his knowledge of the dangers of the virus if he didn't know about it.

I have to correct myself: Trump could easily have bragged about knowledge he didn't have. He does so all the time. But Bob Woodward's tapes make it obvious that Trump was informed and knew about the dangers of the new pandemic. In tapes from February and March, we hear him tell Woodward that the virus is airborne and more deadly than the flu, and that he is deliberately playing it down.
"It goes through the air, Bob. ... But the air, you just breathe the air, and that's how it's passed."
"It's also more deadly than your, you know, your, even your strenuous flus. This is more deadly. This is five per, you know, this is five percent versus one percent and less than one percent, you know? So this is deadly stuff."
"I wanted to always play it down. I still like playing it down because I don't want to create a panic."


His alleged reason for doing so is a lie, of course, like so many others.

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st December 2020, 02:09 PM   #3029
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As always, Anders Tegnell is trying to play down the Swedish disaster. At the press briefing today, it went as follows:

1) Sweden is much the same as other countries doing very poorly. (Thank God for Belgium!)
2) Sweden is not the freak. Norway and Finland are.
3) Sweden's population density is higher than Finland's and Norway's.
4) And this pandemic is so awfully complicated that we can't tell the difference between cause and effect, and we will never find the answer in our lifetimes.

Quote:
Tegnell: Norge och Finland är outliers
På tisdagens pressträff fick statsepidemiolog Anders Tegnell åter besvara den fråga som ställs så många gånger tidigare under pandemin:
Varför har Sverige drabbats så mycket hårdare än övriga Norden?, undrade TV4.
Tegnells svar:
– Sverige följer samma mönster som många andra hårt drabbade länder nere i Europa: Belgien, Nederländerna, Storbritannien och så vidare. Danmark ligger i något slags mellanläge, medan framför allt Norge och Finland är outliers i den europeiska kontexten.
Norge har en befolkningstäthet på 14 invånare per kvadratkilometer. Finland har 16, Sverige 23.
(…)
– Det här är en stor och svår fråga. Dessutom vet man inte svaret förrän ganska långt in i framtiden. Vi kan se att en del länder som klarade sig väldigt lindrigt under den första vågen och som hade enormt kraftiga åtgärder under andra vågen trots det har drabbats väldigt hårt.
– Jag tycker fortfarande att det är svårt att säga vad som är orsak och verkan i denna väldigt komplicerade sjukdom.
Skillnaderna mellan Sverige och Norden under andra vågen (Expressen.se, Dec. 1, 2020)
Tegnell: Norway and Finland are outliers
At Tuesday's press briefing, national epidemiologist Anders Tegnell once again had to answer the question that has been asked so many times before during the pandemic:
Why has Sweden been hit so much harder than the rest of the Nordic region?, TV4 was wondering.
Tegnell's answer:
– Sweden follows the same pattern as many other hard-hit countries in Europe: Belgium, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom and so on. Denmark is in a kind of middle position, while in particular Norway and Finland are outliers in the European context.
Norway has a population density of 14 inhabitants per square kilometer. Finland has 16, Sweden 23.
(…)
- This is a big and difficult question. Besides, we may not know the answer until quite far into the future. We can see that some countries that did quite during the first wave and that had enormously massive measures during the second wave were nevertheless been hit very hard.
- I still find it difficult to say what is the cause and effect in this very complicated disease.
The differences between Sweden and the Nordic countries during the second wave


Since Anders Tegnell is so fond of population density, it is too bad that he got Norway's wrong and left out all the others. Too bad for him that it just goes to show that Finland and Norway are actually the ideal countries to compare Sweden with - unlike the ones that he always clings to:
From Wikipedia’s List of countries and dependencies by population density per km2:

Finland: 16
Norway: 17
Sweden: 23
Denmark: 134
UK: 280
Netherlands: 422
Belgium: 973


It doesn't cease to astonish me that this guy can be the ruling epidemiologist of a country during a pandemic and still not know the difference between cause and effect.
If he weren't so busy making up excuses to cover up for his own bad advice and research, it would make the question of cause and effect so much easier for him to answer.

As it is, the Public Health Agency, at long last, seems to have discovered that asymptomatic children are actually contagious. If they had tested and contact traced, they would have known six months ago. Instead, they published reports based on their deficient data telling the world that children didn't really transmit the disease.

Forskaren går emot FHM: Corona sprids i skolorna (Expressen.se, Dec. 1, 2020)
The researcher goes against the Public Health Agency: Corona is spreading in schools

Nya rådet: Barn ska stanna hemma om familjemedlem har covid-19 (SVT.se, Dec. 1, 2020)
New advice: Children to stay at home if members of their families have Covid-19
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 1st December 2020 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 1st December 2020, 03:37 PM   #3030
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
...

At the border, the road has now been closed and all traffic is controlled. Swedes without a new negative test for Covid-19 will not get into Norway, and those who do will have to spend ten days in quarantine.
Norwegian soldiers are guarding the border to Sweden against coronavirus
It's likely that Norwegian soldiers will take some pleasure in policing Swedes!
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Old Yesterday, 12:31 AM   #3031
dann
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No, I don't think so. I think they would prefer Swedish pandemic restrictions, which would benefit both health care and sentiments along the border. And Norwegians close to the border can probably still work out a way to order pizzas from Swedish restaurants:
Quote:
Restaurangen i Gördalen har funnit ett sätt att leverera mat till Norge, trots att gränsen är stängd.
Här levereras pizzor till Norge – trots stängd gräns. (SVT.se, Sep. 3, 2020)

Tuesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Dec. 1, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 671 (6,798) 17,629* 239 *since Friday, according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 146 (847) 1,468* 38 *based on 71,322 tests, positive 2.1 %, the highest percentage of positives since spring. .
Iceland: 79 (27) 21 2
Finland: 72 (399) 550 18
Norway: 61 (334) 441 34
Iceland has 199 active cases, Faroe Islands 3, New Zealand 72
The Faroe Islands have 64 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Quote:
The person, who is linked to a known chain of infection, has been isolated and contact tracing is underway.
Over the past week, the daily number of positive tests has been as follows: 0, 0, 0, 0, 2, 0 and 1.
One new Covid case (KVF.fo, Nov. 30, 2020)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; Yesterday at 12:47 AM.
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 AM   #3032
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Quote:
Sweden is now caught in a wave of pandemic pain — and reversing course. Sweden has 48.9 new confirmed cases per 100,000 population, compared with 21.7 in Denmark, 8.2 in Norway and 7.7 in Finland. Sweden is averaging about 42.6 deaths per day, compared with 6.9 in Denmark, 3 in Norway and 2.1 in Finland. Sweden’s total 6,798 deaths, predominantly among the elderly, dwarf the toll in the other Nordic nations combined.
Sweden’s anti-lockdown experiment flopped. Now it faces a wave of pandemic pain. (WashingtonPost, Dec. 1, 2020)

Quote:
* The Stockholm branch of the organisation of Senior Hospital Physicians made the call following reports of crowded stores on Black Friday.
* Andreas Fischer, local chair of the organisation, says his Stockholm hospital's intensive care places are filling up.
* He says: "You need to act, you can't just sit back and hope, you need to act and you need to act now".
Stockholm doctors call for shoppers to wear masks (RadioSweden, Dec. 2, 2020)

Quote:
* In a change to self-isolation rules, school children with no symptoms should now also stay home if corona is diagnosed in their family.
* The Public Health Agency says this is mainly to help school staff, rather than stop infection.
* The Education Minister tells Radio Sweden this is about making sure schools can stay open.
Children in covid-infected families should now stay home (RadioSweden, Dec. 1, 2020)

Quote:
Äldreforskaren: ”Vållande till annans död”
Hela 16 regioner prickas också för att vård i livets slutskede inte har skötts enligt gällande regelverk. Under en period fick exempelvis äldre med coronasymtom på boenden i Sörmland palliativ vård, oavsett om patienten hade konstaterad smitta eller inte.
I medierna har det även framkommit flera exempel där anhöriga larmat om att deras närstående ordinerats palliativ vård, i stället för behandling mot virussjukdomen. Yngve Gustafson kallar det för ”aktiv dödshjälp”.
– I många fall är det vållande till annans död. Konsekvensen av att man inte har individuell bedömning är att människor får palliativ vård, utan att de har en dödlig sjukdom. Som regel får en akut infektion aldrig leda till att man sätter in läkemedel som dödar patienten. Kombinationen av morfin och midazolam gör att en gammal människa slutar andas. Man kvävs till döds.
– Många av de som dött i förtid skulle ha haft många år kvar att leva. Deras liv är inte meningslösa, säger Gustafson.
Sveket mot äldre mitt i pandemin: “Dött förtid” (Expressen, Dec. 1, 2020)
Gerontologist: "Causing another person's death"
16 regions are also dotted because end-of-life care has not been provided in accordance with current regulations. For a period, for example, elderly people with corona symptoms in nursing homes in Sörmland received palliative care, regardless of whether the patient had been diagnosed with an infection or not.
In the media, there have also been several examples of relatives having reported that their elderly relatives have been prescribed palliative care, instead of being treated for the viral disease. Yngve Gustafson calls it "active euthanasia".
- In many cases, it is causing another person's death. The consequence of not having an individual assessment is that people receive palliative care without having a fatal disease. As a rule, an acute infection must never lead to the introduction of drugs that kill the patient. The combination of morphine and midazolam causes an old person to stop breathing. You suffocate to death.
- Many of those who died prematurely would have had many years left to live. Their lives are not meaningless, says Gustafson.
Letting down the elderly in the middle of the pandemic: "Dying prematurely"

Tungt lass när intensivvården växlar upp på nytt (DagensNyheter.se, Dec. 2, 2020)
Heavy load when ICU ward shifts gears again

Vill stänga ner Sverige för att stoppa vågen (Expresssen.se, Dec. 2, 2020)
Wants to lock down Sweden to stop the wave
Virology professor Fredrik Elgh and the spokesperson for hospital doctors in Stockholm both want a lockdown, "but Anders Tegnell doesn't think further restrictions are necessary."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Yesterday, 02:37 PM   #3033
dann
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Update

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Sweden is now caught in a wave of pandemic pain — and reversing course. Sweden has 48.9 new confirmed cases per 100,000 population, compared with 21.7 in Denmark, 8.2 in Norway and 7.7 in Finland. Sweden is averaging about 42.6 deaths per day, compared with 6.9 in Denmark, 3 in Norway and 2.1 in Finland. Sweden’s total 6,798 deaths, predominantly among the elderly, dwarf the toll in the other Nordic nations combined.
Sweden’s anti-lockdown experiment flopped. Now it faces a wave of pandemic pain. (WashingtonPost, Dec. 1, 2020)

The number of total registered Covid-19 deaths in Sweden is now 6,972:
Quote:
174 dödsfall relaterade till covid-19 rapporterades in under onsdagen, det högsta antalet på en dag sedan i våras.
Enligt Folkhälsomyndigheten sträcker sig dock de inrapporterade fallen så långt bakåt i tiden som till den 5 november, men med flest antal dödsfall från de senaste två veckorna.
Eftersläpning bakom onsdagens höga dödstal (SVT.se, Dec. 2, 2020 – 18:20)
174 deaths related to Covid-19 were reported on Wednesday, the highest number in one day since spring.
According to the Public Health Agency, the reported cases go as far back in time as Nov. 5, but most of the deaths happened the two most recent weeks.
Delayed reporting is the reason for Wednesday's high death toll

New Covid-19 deaths were also registered in Denmark (6), Finland (9) and Norway (17) since the Washington Post article.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 12:50 AM   #3034
dann
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Wednesday:
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, Dec. 2, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths) New cases Serious/Critical
Sweden: 689 (6,972) 5,400* 238 *according to SVT.se.
Denmark: 147 (853) 1,586* 36 *78,281 tests, positive 2 %.
Iceland: 79 (27) 21 2 Iceland’s numbers were not updated Wednesday.
Finland: 74 (408) 420 21
Norway: 65 (351) 378 37
Iceland has 198 active cases, Faroe Islands 3, New Zealand 72
The Faroe Islands have 64 in quarantine, 0 hospitalized.
Quote:
Testing of all incoming travellers has proved a highly useful way of curbing the spread of Covid-19, says epidemic commission
Mandatory border testing continues until 31 March (KVF.fo, Dec. 2, 2020)
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old Today, 03:28 AM   #3035
dann
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,949
Correction: Iceland

I looked up the numbers again before posting them on a Swedish forum:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
From Wikipedia’s List of countries and dependencies by population density per km2:

Finland: 16
Norway: 17
Sweden: 23
Denmark: 134
UK: 280
Netherlands: 422
Belgium: 973

And I had got Belgium's number wrong. It should be:
Finland: 16
Norway: 17
Sweden: 23
Denmark: 135
UK: 280
Belgium: 376
Netherlands: 422

ETA: I have no idea how Iceland got into the headline!
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; Today at 03:31 AM.
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