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Old 21st May 2017, 12:27 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
What happened to him? Didn't he once have a reputation as a serious journalist?
He still has a reputation as a serious journalist.
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Old 21st May 2017, 01:36 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's plausible Assange feared the extradition he cited. To dismiss that goes back to that dislike of Assange bias.
Possible but doubtful. He could have escalated to the ECJ which would almost certainly have not allowed the extradition to the US. As for Bias... I consider the disclosure of the spy stuff to be on point and needed. So what bias could I have ? Speaking of bias , that you jumped to a possible bias on my side betray a certain bias on yours, doesn't it ?
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:47 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
It's plausible Assange feared the extradition he cited. To dismiss that goes back to that dislike of Assange bias.
It's possible he fears it, but it's utterly irrational. Why would he run a higher risk that Sweden would extradite him to the USA than that the UK, America's favorite lapdog, would? It requires quite some cognitive dissonance.

ETA: on top of that, the Obama administration has repeatedly said they were not interested in him. And the Obama administration always held consistent views. Now, more than ever, with a president with a vocal penchant for locking up journalists, and a British Tory administration with an anti-human rights bias, he should be more afraid than ever.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:04 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Possible but doubtful. He could have escalated to the ECJ which would almost certainly have not allowed the extradition to the US. As for Bias... I consider the disclosure of the spy stuff to be on point and needed. So what bias could I have ? Speaking of bias , that you jumped to a possible bias on my side betray a certain bias on yours, doesn't it ?
Why are you so sure about that? Extradition is controlled by treaties between countries, and both Sweden and the UK have extradition treaties with the U.S. Assange is not a citizen of either country. Why would you think either one wouldn't turn him over? He and his lawyers certainly think it could happen. And of course there is the possibility of an extrajudicial grab if somebody can get to him.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:30 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why are you so sure about that? Extradition is controlled by treaties between countries, and both Sweden and the UK have extradition treaties with the U.S. Assange is not a citizen of either country. Why would you think either one wouldn't turn him over? He and his lawyers certainly think it could happen. And of course there is the possibility of an extrajudicial grab if somebody can get to him.
While the EAW was in effect extradition from Sweden to the USA would have required the agreement of both Swedish and UK governments. Swedish law specifically forbids extradition for political crimes and it would be a very very brave Swedish govt that bowed that way.
UK governments of all stripes have been bending over and greasing up for successive US governments of all stripes for many years.
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:47 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Possible but doubtful. He could have escalated to the ECJ which would almost certainly have not allowed the extradition to the US. As for Bias... I consider the disclosure of the spy stuff to be on point and needed. So what bias could I have ? Speaking of bias , that you jumped to a possible bias on my side betray a certain bias on yours, doesn't it ?
We all have a bias, but mine isn't because I like or dislike Assange. I dislike him. But the women never complained until they found out about each other and asked him for an HIV test which he refused, IOW, he dissed them. In addition the prosecutor had issues which you can go back and look. The original prosecutor who looked at the complaint didn't find it prosecutable.

So either you think we have to believe all women no matter the circumstances, or you despise Assange or both, this is not a believable accusation.

That is my bias.

It is unfortunate it pisses people off that I disagree with them (see tyr_13's ad hom). I'm not pissed off that people disagree with me. One isn't denying facts because one doesn't believe the evidence supports said facts.
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:51 AM   #447
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It's possible he fears it, but it's utterly irrational.
No one said Assange's beliefs were rational.

The guy thinks everything posted on Wikileaks is good and he's a hero. That's not rational either.

People get railroaded in the legal system all the time. Under the circumstances, I fail to see how hiding out in the Ecuadorian Embassy is an admission of guilt by any stretch of the imagination.
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Old 21st May 2017, 11:57 AM   #448
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[deleted after further reading]

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Old 21st May 2017, 01:29 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
He still has a reputation as a serious journalist.
Not after that piece.
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Old 21st May 2017, 06:14 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
He still has a reputation as a serious journalist.
It's just that this reputation only holds with people of a certain political perspective. It's not the reputation of an objective journalist.

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Old 21st May 2017, 06:24 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Why are you so sure about that? Extradition is controlled by treaties between countries, and both Sweden and the UK have extradition treaties with the U.S. Assange is not a citizen of either country. Why would you think either one wouldn't turn him over? He and his lawyers certainly think it could happen. And of course there is the possibility of an extrajudicial grab if somebody can get to him.
In addition to what Wudang has already explained, it's also significant that Sweden has a history of harboring American traitors. Political enemies of the US have more than once found safe haven there.
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Old 21st May 2017, 08:51 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In addition to what Wudang has already explained, it's also significant that Sweden has a history of harboring American traitors. Political enemies of the US have more than once found safe haven there.
You'd have to be more specific to make a comparison. If you're talking about Vietnam-era war protesters, "traitor" is quite a stretch. Many people here and around the world thought the U.S. was the war criminal at the time. But Assange is not American, so he can't claim to be seeking asylum from his own oppressive government. And quite a number of commentators seem to think that the U.S. has exerted substantial pressure on Sweden to give him up and will continue to do so. They really don't have any obvious reason to protect him. They could simply decide that the dispute is between Assange and the U.S., and that it doesn't involve them.

ETA: Foreign Policy, a serious journal, contended in 2014 that Sweden probably wouldn't extradite him for a charge of espionage, but might do so if the charge was theft or cybercrime. And as I noted, he also has reason to worry about being grabbed off the street, something the U.S. has done before.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/18...united-states/

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Old 21st May 2017, 09:49 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
No one said Assange's beliefs were rational.

The guy thinks everything posted on Wikileaks is good and he's a hero. That's not rational either.

People get railroaded in the legal system all the time. Under the circumstances, I fail to see how hiding out in the Ecuadorian Embassy is an admission of guilt by any stretch of the imagination.
His fears are entirely rational. The US is a hyperviolent rogue state that repeatedly ignores international law, locks people up for years without charge, keeps them imprisoned even after it has admitted that they are innocent, and murders and tortures people all over the world with impunity in secret prisons.

US politicians, including Hillary Clinton, have expressed a desire to have Assange murdered.
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Old 21st May 2017, 09:51 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Not after that piece.
Which piece?
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:11 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Which piece?
Just pick one at random

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content...mp-and-clinton
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:27 PM   #456
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You'd have to be more specific to make a comparison. If you're talking about Vietnam-era war protesters, "traitor" is quite a stretch.
I'm talking about literal traitors who sought asylum in Sweden and found asylum there. If you don't know about this, then you're not competent to discuss this.

But Julian Assange is competent. He went to Sweden originally because of its strong protections against US extradition.

For Assange to flee FROM Sweden TO the UK makes no sense, from a US point of view.

The only reason for that is if he's more worried about about rape charges in Sweden than about extradition to the US.
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Old 21st May 2017, 10:59 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm talking about literal traitors who sought asylum in Sweden and found asylum there. If you don't know about this, then you're not competent to discuss this.

But Julian Assange is competent. He went to Sweden originally because of its strong protections against US extradition.
.....
Assange is not American. He cannot be a traitor to the U.S. because he owes it no allegiance.

Only a handful of people have ever been convicted of treason against the U.S. If you think the Vietnam-era draft resisters who sought asylum in Sweden were "traitors," you are misusing the word and expressing a political opinion with which many would disagree.

In any case, what Sweden did for Americans 50 years ago has nothing to do with what they might do today to an Australian to maintain good relations with the U.S.
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Old 21st May 2017, 11:53 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Assange is not American. He cannot be a traitor to the U.S. because he owes it no allegiance.
He also can't be charged with espionage or mishandling classified material, because he was never given access to sensitive information in confidence. The crimes were committed by Manning, who was convicted and sentenced. Assange is a step removed from the entire process. It is irrational to believe the US is or ever was actively pursuing extradition of Assange beyond an exploratory consideration stage.
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Old Yesterday, 05:32 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
He also can't be charged with espionage or mishandling classified material, because he was never given access to sensitive information in confidence. The crimes were committed by Manning, who was convicted and sentenced. Assange is a step removed from the entire process. It is irrational to believe the US is or ever was actively pursuing extradition of Assange beyond an exploratory consideration stage.
According to Sessions, they apparently are now, although my conspiratorial side says that that's just a cover for Assange; sort of a "say you're out to get me so I'll keep being relevant". Quid-pro-quo for services rendered.
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Old Yesterday, 10:31 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Assange is not American. He cannot be a traitor to the U.S. because he owes it no allegiance.

Only a handful of people have ever been convicted of treason against the U.S. If you think the Vietnam-era draft resisters who sought asylum in Sweden were "traitors," you are misusing the word and expressing a political opinion with which many would disagree.

In any case, what Sweden did for Americans 50 years ago has nothing to do with what they might do today to an Australian to maintain good relations with the U.S.
Correct, but you are forgetting that everyone owes allegiance to the global US empire, which, due being a shining light on the hill, has the right to destroy any country it chooses, let alone whichever individuals are on the kill list this Tuesday. Journalists who do not tow the line deserve to be smeared, imprisoned, tortured and/or murdered. They are traitors. Welcome to the incredible, delusional arrogance of American exceptionalism.
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Old Yesterday, 11:41 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by JihadJane View Post
Which piece?
The one you quoted linked to.
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Old Yesterday, 11:56 AM   #462
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
The one you quoted linked to.
Right. Feel free to present some kind of argument in support of your assertions.
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