ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags gravity , homeopathy , photons , quantum mechanics

Reply
Old 31st October 2004, 05:05 PM   #641
Zombified
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,366
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
I am feeling bit frustrated
Not surprising.
Quote:
& pity for some of yo.
Spare me your pity, little man, you have no idea.
Quote:
Still, since you are not contributing, you can just be spectator to it at this LINK.
I am contributing, if only you had the sense to see it.
Quote:
Let me see how science react to it here or there?
Why don't you be a little more honest and tell them you think this is related to homeopathy?
Zombified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2004, 06:40 PM   #642
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Question,
Thanks.

Also others,

Can you provide some more links of science forums for fast & specific responses as this forum seems to be exhausted/frustrated for me in my sense. Sorry, for such request on frustrations.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2004, 07:00 PM   #643
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Quote:
Originally posted by Rolfe
Kumar, you keep using the "blush" smilie? Is this your way of admitting you're really embarrassed at the nonsense you spout?

The post you directed us to is pure Sympathetic Magic. To be strictly correct, it's Contagious Magic, as opposed to the other main branch of classic sympathetic magic, Homoeopathic Magic.

We keep telling you this is not science, it's very ancient magic, as practised by mass existing and all that for about a squillion years.

Go ask the Wiccans or something.

Rolfe.
Thanks. Is it not so that my indications just indicate science to al those magics/supernaturals? Anyway, I am presenting with science not just concept. Any mass...can be true & can have some known or unknown sciene to it. I am therefore, trying & indicating ' possibilities in science/science's present theories'. You may go on reading.

Btw, magic: how it happens? One magician asked the spectators(far away/never in touch with magician) to think smell of any perfume. So many person thought differant smells. After that magician asked people to smell their hands. To the surprise, all got the same smell on their hands as they thought. Other people who didn't participated not got any smell but they also smelled the partcipant's hands & found same smell, what the participants thought/found. People who participated were relatives & friends among all spectators. Since I and my family members & friends has also experianced similarily--it can't be a story. Pls tell me in science--how this remote transmission of smell could be possible?
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2004, 08:19 PM   #644
Zombified
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,366
Looks to me like you get the same answers on sciforums as you do here. You're just not being as forthcoming about the whole homeopathy thing, is the only difference. So we just know you better.

Quote:
Is it not so that my indications just indicate science to al those magics/supernaturals?
No.
Zombified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2004, 08:54 PM   #645
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Originally posted by Zombified
Looks to me like you get the same answers on sciforums as you do here. You're just not being as forthcoming about the whole homeopathy thing, is the only difference. So we just know you better.

No.

No.

Why?
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2004, 09:01 PM   #646
Zombified
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,366
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
No.
No what? I didn't ask you a question.

Oh, that's right. Cat ate the grammar fairy.

Lucky for you sciforums isn't taking registrations today.
Zombified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st October 2004, 10:39 PM   #647
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Quote:
Originally posted by Zombified

Lucky for you sciforums isn't taking registrations today.
Biggest fool or most idiot person may not also like to restrict/resist---knowledge gain free of cost.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 12:57 AM   #648
flume
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 731
Kumar you need to go google sound and light waves. You think people are not giving your ideas a chance, but the problem is your ideas are based on a misunderstanding about physics.
flume is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 01:43 AM   #649
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
flume,

Many thanks for right direction.



Quote:
a wave can be described as a disturbance which travels through a medium, transporting energy from one location (its source) to another location without transporting matter. Each individual particle of the medium is temporarily displaced and then returns to its original equilibrium positioned.
When a wave is present in a medium (that is, when there is a disturbance moving through a medium), the individual particles of the medium are only temporarily displaced from their rest position. There is always a force acting upon the particles which restores them to their original position. It is for this reason, that a wave is said to involve the movement of a disturbance without the movement of matter.
Waves are said to be an energy transport phenomenon. As a disturbance moves through a medium from one particle to its adjacent particle, energy is being transported from one end of the medium to the other.

Link.
The above quote tells us possible energy movement through air to distant site. Mechnical waves can be propagated & moved with less energy needed. But it is not yet clear that whether mechnical waves can move through every medium or through any specific medium of some corresponding property. It looks these waves passes through all type on mediums, but how these can be substance specific in effects, is to be seen?
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 02:19 AM   #650
Zep
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,699
Kumar,

1) You STILL haven't answered my questions about cricket. Any self-respecting patriotic Indian (or Pakistani, or Sri Lankan, or Bangladeshi) schoolchild could easily answer without having to go near Google, no problem at all. I wait still for you to respond... That is, unless you KNOW you aren't Indian at all. True?

2) You cannot accuse me of vested interest in "allopathic" medicine. I'm not a doctor, dentist, veterinarian, pharmacist, or even an ambulance-driver. I never studied medicine. I do not and never have worked for any drug company. I do not and never have promote the use of any particular drugs at all. I'm a COMPUTER scientist...do you know what that means? (He probably doesn't, but what the heck.)

3) Every one of us skeptics here are open to the possibility of new and startling information each and every day. In fact, we depend on it - the rate of expansion of knowledge gets faster all the time. But this is due to SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH, not impossible dreams like homeopathy and magic. Science thoroughly debunked homeopathy back in the 1800's, and magic has been out of vogue since long before Hanneman. So if you REALLY want to get with the absolutely amazing stuff, get with science. Our vision is far more astounding than your homeopathic magic fairy tales could ever imagine. Really.
Zep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 02:25 AM   #651
Zep
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,699
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
The above quote tells us possible energy movement through air to distant site. Mechnical waves can be propagated & moved with less energy needed. But it is not yet clear that whether mechnical waves can move through every medium or through any specific medium of some corresponding property. It looks these waves passes through all type on mediums, but how these can be substance specific in effects, is to be seen?
Well, well. A genuinely scientific question after all this time. Certainly a subject that most junior school children tackle at about age 12, but it looks like a start for Kumar.

Kumar, why don't you go get a tuning fork, and then see for yourself how well sound waves travel through different media. Try air at varying distances (hint: see if you can figure out the speed of sound in air). Then try water (hint: you need to listen under water yourself - can you swim?). Then try something metallic like a railroad track (hint: watch out for trains!). Then wood (a tree, perhaps), earth and stone (in a field, perhaps), etc, etc. Perhaps you should try louder and softer noises, and higher and lower frqeuencies. Graph your results, see if you can reach any conclusions. We'll wait here until you do this.
Zep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 02:30 AM   #652
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Zep, these are not awnsers, contributions or justifications to my questions for which I put ? on the topic subject. Pls check & only contribute.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 02:51 AM   #653
Zep
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,699
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Zep, these are not awnsers, contributions or justifications to my questions for which I put ? on the topic subject. Pls check & only contribute.
Oh? Then what are they then? A pizza supreme? Two tickets to the opera? Airline tickets to romantic places? Fermat's Last Theorem? My suggestions to you in response to your latest line of thought are readily available any time you like. Go do some work on your own for a change.

Or is this just another piss-poor attempt by you at avoiding the questions again, Kumar? To get someone else to do your thinking for you? (Typical homeopath - can't think for themselves) Or is it something you can't do yourself because you are just too stupid? Or is it because you are just a boring troll who isn't Indian and doesn't live in India and is simply some dull spotty nerd from the backwaters of Palo Alto using a garbeliser?

So how about some answers from YOU, for a change?

Tell you what. If you don't answer any of my questions, and please note these are NOT about homeopathy or any "controversial" subject like that, then I shall start posting my giant post about your misbegotten beliefs in response to EVERY post of yours in EVERY thread I find you in. Understood?
Zep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 02:56 AM   #654
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
I accept my mistake to misunderstood that Hans can't be a BACKBITER.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 03:28 AM   #655
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,735
Kumar, you are posting your nonsense on at least 3 forums, probably more. You are asking a lot of serious people to take a lot of trouble explaining things to you. Now, if you truely wanted knowledge, and to learn, that would be fine, but that is not what you want. All you want is to get some things you can twist and misinterpret into new and hopeless theories about homeopathy.

So you might call it backbiting, but I am also part of these communities, and I want to warn others about your motives, since you are not yourself honest enough to make it clear that you are looking for things to support homeopathy.

If people want to reply to you after that, then that is their choice.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 04:16 AM   #656
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
[quote]Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Kumar, you are posting your nonsense on at least 3 forums, probably more. You are asking a lot of serious people to take a lot of trouble explaining things to you.

People participate in discussions only if , it interests them--as I am not in school. When one post at differant forums it may be either due to weakness on one forum to give satisfactory awnsers OR to get more opinions on some unclear aspects(as opinions from differant doctors).

Now, if you truely wanted knowledge, and to learn, that would be fine, but that is not what you want. All you want is to get some things you can twist and misinterpret into new and hopeless theories about homeopathy.

First I am not a sole owner of homeopathy. 2nd, it is to know the science for SCIENCE, not for HOMEOPATHY. You are well inteligent, technical & sales person--so can/should understand the consequences/effects to homeopathic community-isf science is found. I think all will immediately go to modern systen as happened with some other alt. systems. So it is very logical to understand that 'knowing of homeopathic science should not be in their favour. Acc., if you consider me somewhat anti-homeopathic community--it may not be much wrong. 3rd, instead, you try to make it hopeful, you tries to make it hopeless as if you are the sole enemy of homeopathy or sole owner of modern system--so vested interests....etc.

So you might call it backbiting, but I am also part of these communities, and I want to warn others about your motives, since you are not yourself honest enough to make it clear that you are looking for things to support homeopathy.

If people want to reply to you after that, then that is their choice.


As above--Mr.Hans.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 05:23 AM   #657
Zep
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 26,699
Could THIS be...Kumar??

Zep is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 07:52 AM   #658
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 22,735
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar

People participate in discussions only if , it interests them--as I am not in school. When one post at differant forums it may be either due to weakness on one forum to give satisfactory awnsers OR to get more opinions on some unclear aspects(as opinions from differant doctors).

Unsatisfactory answers? You mean people insist on telling you the truth. Tough..........

First I am not a sole owner of homeopathy. 2nd, it is to know the science for SCIENCE, not for HOMEOPATHY. You are well inteligent, technical & sales person--so can/should understand the consequences/effects to homeopathic community-isf science is found. I think all will immediately go to modern systen as happened with some other alt. systems.

Yes of course it will.

So it is very logical to understand that 'knowing of homeopathic science should not be in their favour.

Well, it would be the end of the self-appointed quacks, that's for sure.


Acc., if you consider me somewhat anti-homeopathic community--it may not be much wrong.

No, I don't.


3rd, instead, you try to make it hopeful, you tries to make it hopeless as if you are the sole enemy of homeopathy or sole owner of modern system--so vested interests....etc.

Uhhh? you loose me there--
Kumar, the problem is not that you try to find a scientific explanation of homeopathy. I think that is great, otherwise I would not have taken the trouble to write hundreds of answers to you. The problem is the WAY you go about it. Let's look at this:

You are trying to find the great unifying theory that will marry modern medicine and homeopathy. Something lots of people have been trying to do for generations.

But, do you do this by studying science and homeopathy, make experiments and other research? No, you make google searches and post endless questions to strangers on internet forums. Then you pick whatever snippets of what you find that seem to support something and ignore the rest.

You are like somebody trying to invent a supercomputer, but doing it by haphazardly picking the weekly bargain at various shops, shoveling it into a cabinet, then expecting it to work.

You don't understand what photons are, yet you make theories based on photons.

You have no idea how waves function, yet you make theories on waves.

You have no idea how photochemistry works, yet you make theories on photochemistry.

etc. etc.

You present totally illogical theories and when people keep pointing out the glaring errors, you complain that they are negative and give unsatisfatory answers.

You ask a question, and when you get an answer that doesn't suit your purpose, you just repeat the question, not once, but a dozen times, on different forums.

To top it, you don't even try to write intelligible English. For instance, you keep making the same spelling errors endlessly (like "awnser").

It is not surprising that people have stopped taking you seriously; in fact, I think everybody has been exceedingly patient with you.

Hans
__________________
Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 09:42 PM   #659
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Mr.Hans,

No doubt, there are some technical & language weaknesses & miss are there in me but on other side, there can be some good logical understanding or creativeness for balancing the defects. Otherwise-why people would have interacted with me so much--as you have also inicated. But just take it for sure, nothing is manipulation, intention based or vested with any commercial imterest. When people react with me thinking these, I just react in anger for their wrong thinking or as 'opposite action or reaction in defence'. As told several times, I do not disrespect any well existing system nor like others to disrespect at least in interacting with me. All my spending so much time & reactions are 'pure heart bases' for finding & gaining some 'Dyanamic & creative' new knowledge. In my personal life & for my commercial vested interest, I fully understand that it is better 'not to visit forums'. But it is not easy to remove worms & addiction of 'to see unclear aspects very clear. On 2nd thought, it is a better addiction/habit than addiction/habit of other bad addictions/habits as most may have to adopt some addictions/habits as a part of life. Anyway, pls just concentrate on contributing as you usually practice & don't think otherwise. Best wishes
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 09:45 PM   #660
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Quote:
Originally posted by Zep
Could THIS be...Kumar??

Others in their inner heart may be thinking you wrongly typed insted of 'Could THIS be...Zep??

Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 10:34 PM   #661
Zombified
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,366
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
No doubt, there are some technical & language weaknesses & miss are there in me but on other side, there can be some good logical understanding or creativeness for balancing the defects.
Unfortunately, Kumar, your understanding is so poor that you have a difficult time forming ideas that even make sense - much of the time answering your questions is spent trying to disabuse you of incorrect notions. Rather than creatively developing new ideas, you are coming up with ideas that have already been covered many times before or which were just plain wrong in fundamental ways. The idea that an uninformed person could have a brilliant insight into a science is a nice fantasy, but it just doesn't work that way.

I do not say this to be cruel or dismissive. I am trying to give you constructive feedback about why you are having the trouble you're having. I believe you would be best served by taking some basic science classes, and trying to understand simple ideas before you tackle the complicated stuff. It's the old saying: you gotta walk before you can run.

The other half of your problem is your utter unwillingness to have the apparently central axiom of your belief system challenged. Modern science does not support homeopathy in any way. If you try to bend science to make it fit homeopathy, you will inevitably break it. There is unfortunately no way around this. If you are going to understand science, you need to stop looking for ways to make homeopathy fit, and try to understand science for its own sake. Then you will start to see the problems with homeopathy for what they are.
Quote:
Otherwise-why people would have interacted with me so much--as you have also inicated.
Speaking for myself, it began as a sincere effort to help you understand. After a while it became a sincere effort to correct your dreadful misunderstanding. Now? Sheer bloody-mindedness, and a lack of anyone else to bother.

Maybe if you showed some sincere sign of trying to learn, you'd get the conversation back on track.
Zombified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st November 2004, 11:06 PM   #662
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
Zombified, thanks for your telling with you pure heart. But, there seems to be no other style to pursue some uncler aspects with posive experiances, in my sense. Even, Question, by his mean also indicated somewhat similarily, but, I THINK new ideas are generated by discussions & interantions. You know hybridization & cross pollinations for new generations. Self polination is not meant for creation. Reading books, may not help, as you read but lost all your hopes. I take this in consoideration, as I can't leave hopes due to personal experiances. So just keeping in mind, no vested or commercial interest of mine but just creation, you may post materiastically. Best wishes.
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2004, 02:46 AM   #663
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 44,895
Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
But just take it for sure, nothing is manipulation, intention based or vested with any commercial imterest. When people react with me thinking these, I just react in anger for their wrong thinking or as 'opposite action or reaction in defence'.
Kumar, you ask knowledgeable scientists to explain their subject to you. They try to do this, patiently and clearly. You do not like the information you are given, because the truth does not support homoeopathy, and you would rather believe homoeopathy than find out the truth.

You therefore accuse these sincere and knowledgeable people of "vested interest", decide that their thinking is "wrong", and become angry with them.

Kumar, it is you who has the vested interest, you manipulate and bias everything you are told, in order to support that interest. No wonder people are becoming angry with you.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2004, 03:41 AM   #664
Kumar
Guest
 
Kumar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 14,255
[quote]Originally posted by Rolfe
Kumar, you ask knowledgeable scientists to explain their subject to you. They try to do this, patiently and clearly. You do not like the information you are given, because the truth does not support homoeopathy, and you would rather believe homoeopathy than find out the truth.

It is just a wrong understanding. Why I am visiting & interacting with you, then? Two main reasons for the differances if no 'vested commercial or egoistic' interests(mine not); Preconcieved Ideas (or differance in mine & your senses). Provoking habbits/nature ( yours; to oppose all other systems & favour modern system, mine to oppose oppositins to any system incl. modern ones). Non-technicalities, languages problems, stub-bornness, ego--also matters but secondary considerations. We can somehow try to manage, change & mould accordingly.


You therefore accuse these sincere and knowledgeable people of "vested interest", decide that their thinking is "wrong", and become angry with them.

As above or till I am not clear. I become angry on provokation. I am not clear and ask questions & requestions. You over-react soon/early esp. on homeopathic aspects--I also react & as got provoked. However, all these things are common/constitutional since ages for search & presenting any new concept bit differantly.

Kumar, it is you who has the vested interest, you manipulate and bias everything you are told, in order to support that interest. No wonder people are becoming angry with you.

Angry? In true sense it is not fair/justified. I have no vested interests, but it can be 'my nature' which apparently(not really) did not suits to you---may be an astrological relations differance. Sorry if you don't like it!!
Kumar is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd November 2004, 08:05 AM   #665
Question
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 417
Quote:
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
Kumar, you are posting your nonsense on at least 3 forums, probably more.
He has not been seen in sci.physics yet. I wonder why not.
Question is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.