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Tags gravity , homeopathy , photons , quantum mechanics

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Old 15th October 2004, 02:40 AM   #161
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To the subject, I may ask one question:-

Suppose, we sit under sun in bright sun-light & keep our legs in very cold water filled in a metal bucket. I think we will loose some of our heat or internal energy by doing this. I want to know that:

Shall we get/compensate the heat/ internal energy lost by keeping our legs in cold water from the sun/atmosphere/free energy or not??
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Old 15th October 2004, 03:38 AM   #162
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Kumar,

You are really out in the deep with your latest posts.

First of all, you still have not commented on the fact that energy is not the same as information.

Secondly, your pretty pictures of running animals were all wrong: They were using chemical energy, not kinetic energy to produce motion (granted, they possesed kinetic energy, but they certainly do not kill with kinetic energy), and potential energy (PE) was not used at all (unless they were running down a slope).

Thirdly, you are not always hot because the environment is conferring energy to you. It is much more common that the heat energy your body is producing cannot be transferred effectively to the environment when the environment is too warm, or the humidity is too high. Then you feel hot.

Because humans are mammals, we continually burn food and generate heat. If you have your feet in a bucket of water, the blood circulation will usually transfer heat from the rest of the body so that you will not get frostbite. If the bucket is too cold, this process might not be efficient enough, and your feet could be damaged by the cold. Outside heat can also be transferred to the body, but under normal comfy temperatures, this is not as important as the heat you produce yourself.

But again, you are not storing any information with the energy, so all of this discussion has no bearing on homoeopathy.
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Old 15th October 2004, 03:39 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
To the subject, I may ask one question:-

Suppose, we sit under sun in bright sun-light & keep our legs in very cold water filled in a metal bucket. I think we will loose some of our heat or internal energy by doing this. I want to know that:

Shall we get/compensate the heat/ internal energy lost by keeping our legs in cold water from the sun/atmosphere/free energy or not??
There will be three vectors, or energy flows.

1) Heat energy will flow from the body to the cold water (by conduction).

2) Heat energy will flow to the body from the sun/warm air (by radiation and conduction).

3) Heat energy will flow to the body by internal meatbolization (chemical energy).

Whether the net. energy flow will be positive or negative depends on the relative sizes of the energy flows. ANd these sizes depend on a number of factors:

- Temperature of the water.

- Temperature of the air.

- Strenght of the sunlight.

- Level of metabolism.

- Contact area to water.

- Exposure area to sun.

- Clothing or other insulation.

..etc, ..etc.

Hans
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Old 15th October 2004, 03:43 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
*snip*
Why internal energy of homeopathic remedies substances can't be effected by Work Done on potentisation process?
But it does. The remedy will have increased internal energy right after succussion. It will be slightly warmer. Of course, the warmth from the fingers of the person doing the shaking will probably have far more influence.

Hans
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Old 15th October 2004, 04:10 AM   #165
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Mr.Hans, steenkh,

It therefore indicates that if we loose energy we can also get the same from atmosphere,free energy or sun-light---may it also include other cosmic rays. Our body can also compensate for the lost energy by its own means--but it may prefer the outside source first to conserve the internal energy. There can be a flow of energy from these sources, if we loose some energy?

Now, can this flow be resisted/effected due to some defects in us? Will the flow of this outside energy match with what we have lost or not?

Steenkh,

I think somewhat Magnetic tape or What causes different colors in flames? , can be the awnser.
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Old 15th October 2004, 04:15 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
But it does. The remedy will have increased internal energy right after succussion. It will be slightly warmer. Of course, the warmth from the fingers of the person doing the shaking will probably have far more influence.

Hans
Mr.Hans,

What does it mean that 'to accelrate/jump to higher orbit electrons, we need energy to put in & energy is released when it cools down/jump to lower orbit?

OR(ref. above link)
"Electrons on atoms have different amounts of energy proportional to the distance of their orbital from the nucleus. Electrons (which are negative) close to the positive nucleus have lower potential energy; those in "higher" energy levels farther away have more energy. In order for an e- to "jump" from a lower level to a higher one it must absorb energy, often in the form of light. Conversely when an e- "falls" from a higher level to a lower one, it gives off energy, again in the form of a photon of light. "
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Old 15th October 2004, 04:18 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Our body can also compensate for the lost energy by its own means--but it may prefer the outside source first to conserve the internal energy. There can be a flow of energy from these sources, if we loose some energy?
Sounds rather like the breatharian approach. The human body can sustain itself by absorbing energy from its surroundings. Trouble is, studies have shown that it doesn't work
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Old 15th October 2004, 04:26 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Don
Sounds rather like the breatharian approach. The human body can sustain itself by absorbing energy from its surroundings. Trouble is, studies have shown that it doesn't work
Probably, due to some defects in us by say modern addictions/irregularities (as I am asking) & we need to practice/medicate to correct it.
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Old 15th October 2004, 04:37 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Probably, due to some defects in us by say modern addictions/irregularities (as I am asking) & we need to practice/medicate to correct it.
No, it's due to the fact that there is no mechanism by which energy can be absorbed in a way that can be used by the human body. Being in a warm room does not enable us to abosorb energy (which fo example could be stored as fat) it merely reduces the amount of energy taken to maintain our body temperature.
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Old 15th October 2004, 04:44 AM   #170
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Originally posted by The Don
No, it's due to the fact that there is no mechanism by which energy can be absorbed in a way that can be used by the human body. Being in a warm room does not enable us to abosorb energy (which fo example could be stored as fat) it merely reduces the amount of energy taken to maintain our body temperature.
If we can't absorb, how can then you can say "it merely reduces the amount of energy taken to maintain our body temperature."
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Old 15th October 2004, 04:51 AM   #171
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The rate at which heat is lost is dependent on, among other things, the difference in temperature between body temperature and air temperature. No matter how hot the external temperature gets, the mechanism by which the body creates energy from food stores does not go into reverse. In other words, if the external temperature exceeds body temperature, the excess body heat is NOT turned back into body fat. It's the way the machine works.

It's precisely the same way that if you apply heat, sound and exhaust gases to an internal combustion engine, you don't end up with petrol being created.

Why not read up about basic physiology rather than plucking hypotheses out of thin air.
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Old 15th October 2004, 05:38 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Mr.Hans,

What does it mean that 'to accelrate/jump to higher orbit electrons, we need energy to put in & energy is released when it cools down/jump to lower orbit?

*snip*
No, this has nothing to do with heat. In heat energy, the whole atom/molecule moves/vibrates. Energy from electrons changing level will normally be exchanged as photons, and usually more energetic than heat.

When you heat or cool something, electrons don't change level ("orbit").

Hans
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Old 15th October 2004, 06:07 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
It therefore indicates that if we loose energy we can also get the same from atmosphere,free energy or sun-light---may it also include other cosmic rays. Our body can also compensate for the lost energy by its own means--but it may prefer the outside source first to conserve the internal energy. There can be a flow of energy from these sources, if we loose some energy?
Our body burns our food all the time. We do not rely on outside heat in order to conserve energy - at least not on the scale that concerns us here. You will get hungry even if you living in a hot desert.

[/quote]
I think somewhat Magnetic tape or What causes different colors in flames? , can be the awnser.
[/quote]
No, it is not the answer. There is information stored on the magnetic tape, and you used energy in order to store it, but the information is not stored in the energy level. Different materials give off different coloured light when heated, but this is not information that is stored in order to be retrieved later. If you wanted to store information in this way, you would have to make some code of materials, and you would use energy in order to assemble the materials, but this is just like you use energy to deposit the magnetic material on the magnetic tape. The information is not stored in the energy.

You will be hard pressed to find evidence that energy is the same as information. Your theory is simply wrong.

And if there was information in a homoeopathic solution, you would still have to explain why the information you want is not drowned in information you do not want.

But there is a way out! You could simply invoke MAGIC and all your problems will be solved. Homoeopathy is magic, and you can just as well get used to it.

And like all other magic, it does not work!
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Old 15th October 2004, 07:22 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRC_Hans
No, this has nothing to do with heat. In heat energy, the whole atom/molecule moves/vibrates. Energy from electrons changing level will normally be exchanged as photons, and usually more energetic than heat.

When you heat or cool something, electrons don't change level ("orbit").

Hans
I don't know it is correct or wrong:-

Quote:
"OK. So in the flame, electrons get excited and pushed to higher energy levels by the heat energy. When they fall back down, they give off photons of light of different colors, based upon how far they fall. Different temperatures cause electrons to jump to different levels, but different types of atoms also have energy levels that are different distances apart. Thus putting copper into a flame causes a green glow because electrons on the copper atoms are falling and jumping exactly the right distance to emit or absorb photons of the frequency we see as green (you can try this with a penny)

The same idea explains not only color in flames, but all the colors we see. "
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae569.cfm
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Old 15th October 2004, 07:36 AM   #175
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Hans,

Kumar has a point here which has nothing to do with his silly homoeopathy theories: What does actually happen when you put a piece of copper in a flame? I know that the electrons only temporarily occupy a more energetic level before they fall back to their old level, so after having given off a photon, the electron occupies the old position again. But the copper atom is still warmer than before, right? How is this heat stored in the atom?

I also notice that when you put a piece of copper in a flame, it is only the flame that is glowing green, not the piece of copper itself. Presumably, some copper atoms are vaporised off the piece and give off the light. Are these copper atoms then much warmer than the copper piece? And why?
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Old 15th October 2004, 07:48 AM   #176
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Kinetic and heat energy, heat flow, photons, vibration, quanta etc. are all plentiful here. Is this therefore evidence that these things are a good asset to healing?
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Old 15th October 2004, 08:21 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Our body burns our food all the time. We do not rely on outside heat in order to conserve energy - at least not on the scale that concerns us here. You will get hungry even if you living in a hot desert.


I think somewhat Magnetic tape or What causes different colors in flames? , can be the awnser.
[/quote]
No, it is not the answer. There is information stored on the magnetic tape, and you used energy in order to store it, but the information is not stored in the energy level. Different materials give off different coloured light when heated, but this is not information that is stored in order to be retrieved later. If you wanted to store information in this way, you would have to make some code of materials, and you would use energy in order to assemble the materials, but this is just like you use energy to deposit the magnetic material on the magnetic tape. The information is not stored in the energy.

You will be hard pressed to find evidence that energy is the same as information. Your theory is simply wrong.

And if there was information in a homoeopathic solution, you would still have to explain why the information you want is not drowned in information you do not want.

But there is a way out! You could simply invoke MAGIC and all your problems will be solved. Homoeopathy is magic, and you can just as well get used to it.

And like all other magic, it does not work!
[/quote]

I think we may have to understand some colour coding caused by differant photons on remedy's substance.

Quote:
'Why don't we ever speak of sub-atomic particles as having 'color'?' To answer the question it is necessary to point out that light is, of course, made up of photons -- each one having its own energy and hence its own frequency. The frequency range of the electromagnetic spectrum that is visible to the human eye (and which we refer to as 'color') is a very small region in the entire range of photon energies we have observed in nature.
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae160.cfm
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Old 15th October 2004, 08:26 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zamzara


Kinetic and heat energy, heat flow, photons, vibration, quanta etc. are all plentiful here. Is this therefore evidence that these things are a good asset to healing?
Ayurveda, Great ancient system of healing starts from materials found on volcanic erruptions --I just rember. Sulphur was one.
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Old 15th October 2004, 08:40 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar


I think we may have to understand some colour coding caused by differant photons on remedy's substance.
Humanity already have unvield the secret of color: Photon frequence. Different materials block certain frequences, because the photons exite different orbitals. All spicies have a certain color fingerprint that can be shown using a spectrometer: take a look here Funny thing that homeopathic remedies never show anything but glass and water on spectrometer graphs! Go figure!
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Old 15th October 2004, 09:14 AM   #180
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You might also want to read about fluorescent and phosphorescent materials, like glow-in-the-dark toys. The effect of photons on substances is very specific, depending on the structure of the molecule and the wavelength of the photon. You would be incorrect in assuming that any material interacting with any photon could have any effect.
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Old 15th October 2004, 09:27 AM   #181
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Humanity already have unvield the secret of color: Photon frequence. Different materials block certain frequences, because the photons exite different orbitals. All spicies have a certain color fingerprint that can be shown using a spectrometer: take a look here Funny thing that homeopathic remedies never show anything but glass and water on spectrometer graphs! Go figure!
Quote:
At the sub-atomic level 'color' is not an intrinsic property of anything. The same electron is just as capable of emitting X-rays, orange light, or radio waves -- all that matters is the environment and interactions it finds itself in contact with. Thus color is rightfully a property of complex substances (molecules, crystals etc.), rather than of the constituents that make them up.
The reason there is no 'color spectrum' as such at the sub-atomic level is that, within the nucleus, the difference between energy levels, delta E, is substantially greater than the differences that typically occur between allowed electron orbits around the nucleus. Therefore, when transitions occur within the nucleus, there is a discrete spectrum of emitted frequencies, but the spectral lines occur at much higher frequencies so that they do not fall within the visible, or color, spectrum that we can see with our eyes. (From same link as previously mentioned)
Can spectrometer measure all frequencies, density & temp.?
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Old 15th October 2004, 09:28 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar

I think we may have to understand some colour coding caused by differant photons on remedy's substance.
There is no problem in understanding colour. The problem lies in storing information in water by means of photons of specific energy. Even if you hit a water molecule with a photon that it can absorb, you have no way of ensuring that it does not dissipate the energy to the other water molecules around it - that is what water does! No way of storing information here. Light of all colours strikes water all the time. How would you prevent this so that only your homoeopathic photons do so?

Please do not just repeat yourself one more time. Address the question and do not just google for something more about photons and colours. It will not help your argument.
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Old 15th October 2004, 09:30 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Can spectrometer measure all frequencies, density & temp.?
No.

Your move is to say; "AHA! Therefore..."

My move is to call you an unflattering name.

How about we play another game, he who only writes correct english when he forgets his JREF character?
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Old 15th October 2004, 09:31 AM   #184
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Originally posted by steenkh
Please do not just repeat yourself one more time. Address the question and do not just google for something more about photons and colours. It will not help your argument.
It is a troll. A homeopathetic troll. Emphasis on "pathetic."
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Old 15th October 2004, 09:45 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Hans,

Kumar has a point here which has nothing to do with his silly homoeopathy theories: What does actually happen when you put a piece of copper in a flame? I know that the electrons only temporarily occupy a more energetic level before they fall back to their old level, so after having given off a photon, the electron occupies the old position again. But the copper atom is still warmer than before, right? How is this heat stored in the atom?

Hey, watch the vet answer a physics question badly. The atoms in the piece of copper will be vibrating more rapidly. That is what increased temperature is. Some atoms shake free of the lattice and fly away into the flame where some of their electrons gain energyfrom incident photons and when falling back to lower energy levels emit green light.

Presumably, some copper atoms are vaporised off the piece and give off the light. Are these copper atoms then much warmer than the copper piece? And why?

I don't know. Need a physicist. I suspect they are those atoms that have been given most energy hence their breaking away from the bulk material, so I think they must have higher kinetic energy and, hence, temperature.


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Old 15th October 2004, 09:52 AM   #186
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BSM,

Thanks!
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Old 15th October 2004, 11:08 AM   #187
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Everything is made up of electromagnetic energy vibrating at different frequencies that correspond to sound, light and color.
Colors are frequency wavelengths - the primary colors following a spectrum called ROYGBIV.
http://www.crystalinks.com/colors.html

Still it is an alt. System, but colour therapy or Solar medicines do exists.


One more effect:-

Compton effect: Photons have energy and momentum just as material particles do; they also have wave characteristics, such as wavelength and frequency. The energy of photons is directly proportional to their frequency and inversely proportional to their wavelength, so lower-energy photons have lower frequencies and longer wavelengths. In the Compton effect, individual photons collide with single electrons that are free or quite loosely bound in the atoms of matter. Colliding photons transfer some of their energy and momentum to the electrons, which in turn recoil. In the instant of the collision, new photons of less energy and momentum are produced that scatter at angles the size of which depends on the amount of energy lost to the recoiling electrons.
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Old 15th October 2004, 11:29 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Can spectrometer measure all frequencies, density & temp.?
It scans all light frequencies. Yes, you can calculate the concentration and from that the density. To measure temperatures we usually use a thermometer. This is pure science, and the same pure science shows that Homeopathic remedies have no effect, and contain nothing but water or alcohol.

Is this going somewhere?
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Old 15th October 2004, 11:35 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Everything is made up of electromagnetic energy vibrating at different frequencies that correspond to sound, light and color.
Colors are frequency wavelengths - the primary colors following a spectrum called ROYGBIV.
http://www.crystalinks.com/colors.html

Still it is an alt. System, but colour therapy or Solar medicines do exists.

Not all thing are made of electromagnetic energy vibrations, it's just electromagnetic radiation that is made of electromagnetic energy. Sound is vibrations in a physical medium like air or water, and that has nothing to do with electromagnetic radiation!

Color therapy is, well, probably just bogus. Rudolf Steiner had thoughts abot color therapy, and that was also bogus.

Where is this leading?
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Old 15th October 2004, 11:53 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Compton effect
One more aspect of quantum mechanics that has nothing, whatsoever, to do with homeopathy. I don't even see how this is possibly relevant except in the most general "light interacting with matter sense."

This exercise in free association is getting you nowhere, Kumar. I hope you are taking plenty of breaks, stretching your arms regularly, exercising daily, and drinking plenty of fluids; I would hate for you to get a repetitive stress injury for nothing.
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Old 15th October 2004, 12:08 PM   #191
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Anders, Zombified,

I mentioned so much. Now, can you tell some possibile effects by photons which can probably leave some information on remedy substances?
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Old 15th October 2004, 12:11 PM   #192
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Old 15th October 2004, 12:13 PM   #193
Anders
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Anders, Zombified,

I mentioned so much. Now, can you tell some possibile effects by photons which can probably leave some information on remedy substances?
Yeah, but then we are talking gamma or beta radiation, and last time I checked, homeopaths very seldom has access to accelarators.

So No, Kumar, no effect by light shining on bottles of water...
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Old 15th October 2004, 12:17 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
Anders, Zombified,

I mentioned so much. Now, can you tell some possibile effects by photons which can probably leave some information on remedy substances?
I know you did not invite me, but here it goes: photography. Light has an effect on certain chemicals that cause them to change. In fact, one the first postings on this thread gave a list of substances that were affected by light. But your problem is that you want water to be affected, and if such an effect did exist, how on earth would you ensure that only beneficial light would be "recorded" in the water?

Are we going in circles here? Perhaps if you will just read the previous answers, then you can save yourself a lot of trouble. Eventually we will tire of spoon-feeding these concepts to you.

(Edited to correct spelling)
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Old 15th October 2004, 12:56 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Are we going in circles here?
I feel very dizzy...
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Old 15th October 2004, 02:02 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
Hans,

Kumar has a point here which has nothing to do with his silly homoeopathy theories: What does actually happen when you put a piece of copper in a flame? I know that the electrons only temporarily occupy a more energetic level before they fall back to their old level, so after having given off a photon, the electron occupies the old position again. But the copper atom is still warmer than before, right? How is this heat stored in the atom?

I also notice that when you put a piece of copper in a flame, it is only the flame that is glowing green, not the piece of copper itself. Presumably, some copper atoms are vaporised off the piece and give off the light. Are these copper atoms then much warmer than the copper piece? And why?
I don't know the details, but the green comes from copper oxide, no copper, so I assume some of the copper is actually burning. I'm an electronic engineer, not a chemical engineer. Kumar has point?? Don't make me laugh.........


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Old 15th October 2004, 03:15 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
We can check it by its effects.
?!

I said:<blockquote>"effect"? That's kind of vague. What sort of effect, exactly?</blockquote>and you replied:<blockquote>We can check it by its effects.</blockquote>Not all that helpful a response ...

Then I said:<blockquote>If I gave you a bottle of water and a bottle of homeopathic remedy, without telling you which was which, how would you distinguish them?

Have you ever personally tried this experiment? Try it a few times. You might find that you can't reliably distinguish them, after all.</blockquote>and you replied:<blockquote>these remededies may not like distrusting, skeptism, doubts etc.</blockquote>A couple of comments: (1) Anything is possible, of course, but on the other hand none of the scientific mechanisms you are proposing dislikes skepticism, so they can't be how homeopathy works (if it does indeed work). (2) I may be skeptical, but you sure aren't. So, you should have no trouble distinguishing the two bottles, right? If you can't say which is which unless you already know ... well, isn't that the definition of "placebo effect"?
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Old 15th October 2004, 05:51 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kumar
We can check it by its effects. Anyhow, these remededies may not like distrusting, skeptism, doubts etc. because just energy based, not toxic chemical based. If you say nothing is there, we may have to think about all or most quantum studies---or what we have not seen, personally--as 'earth is round'.
"May not like"? So energy has feelings now?

Have you forgotten that we can actually see that the Earth is round? Have you forgotten the discussions about it? What people told you about? Or you have chosen to ignore it?

And you also forgot -or chosen to ignore- what was told about "cosmic energies".

Actually this aplies to everything the people here explains to you.

All these threads are nothing but waste of bandwidht.

edited for my poor spelling - nevermind, there are still errors
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Old 15th October 2004, 07:49 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally posted by steenkh
I know you did not invite me, but here it goes: photography. Light has an effect on certain chemicals that cause them to change. In fact, one the first postings on this thread gave a list of substances that were affected by light. But your problem is that you want water to be affected, and if such an effect did exist, how on earth would you ensure that only beneficial light would be "recorded" in the water?

steenkh, No it was not my intention not to invite you or any other body, but since previous discussions were with them, so I just mentioned casually. Anyway sorry to you & others. You can understand that this question is general type question & all should/can try to contribute to it. I have seen photographic effect or Photochemistry(one as given below) but I couldn't relate it.

Anyway, pls try to recall more possibilities. I think photons produced during potentisation should be able to leave some information or imprint on remedy's substances. We have active substances, carriers-water,alcohol & lactose, contaminations esp.Silicon/Silica to consider. We may have to check some cummulative type effect which should remain after all molecules are diluted out--still effect of those to remain there.

Quote:
Microwaves, radio waves, infrared, and ultraviolet waves are portions of the invisible electromagnetic spectrum. We cannot see these portions of the spectrum with our eyes, but we have invented devices (radios, infrared detectors, ultraviolet dyes, etc.) that let us detect these portions as well.

Light is neither a wave nor a particle, but has properties of both. Light can be focused like a wave, but its energy is distributed in discrete packets called photons. The energy of each photon is inversely related to the wavelength of the light -- blue light is the most energetic, while red light has the least energy per photon of exposure. Ultraviolet light (UV) is more energetic, but invisible to human eyes. Infrared light is also invisible, but if it is strong enough our skin detects it as heat.

It is the energy in each photon of light that causes a chemical change to the photographic detectors that are coated on the film. The process whereby electromagnetic energy causes chemical changes to matter is known as photochemistry. By carefully engineering materials, they can be chemically stable until they are exposed to radiation (light). Photochemistry comes in many different forms. For example, specially formulated plastics can be hardened (cured) by exposure to ultraviolet light, but exposure to visible light has no effect. When you get a sun tan, a photochemical reaction has caused the pigments in your skin to darken. Ultraviolet rays are particularly harmful to your skin because they are so energetic.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/film3.htm
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Old 15th October 2004, 08:31 PM   #200
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Hello all,

Please try to see which couldn't be looked as yet NOT which we have already looked. Otherwise, we will have to carried forward it to future research ot to our next generations.

It looks this concept is more related to Photochemistry & Photobiology.
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